Actually, with low startup costs, a well educated population, and low regulation environment...

till they can de-institutionalize their corruption theyre not going to get there. sorry. Optimisitic Russian Bear is optimistic.

russia is fantastic and making war materials, booze, and beautiful women.

in fact, lets get this thread off on the right foot and post pics of hot russian women. id start but im at work.

Anavrinman: I tend to fix a lot of outsourced code. I notice that I spend less time fixing russian code than Indian. Don't know if that means anything though.

Father_Jack: till they can de-institutionalize their corruption theyre not going to get there. sorry. Optimisitic Russian Bear is optimistic.

Why? We seem to do it here just fine.

russian coders think outside the box a little bit better. indian coders are automatons and follow only the spec in front of them and dont interpret anything. you will never ever here a an indian offshore developer say "yeah i know what you meant to say here so i did it the right way, you might wanna fix your spec".

re: corruption? haeh? are you actually arguing that its as corrupt trying to incorporate and start a business in the US as it is in Russia?

and i am STILL waiting for pics of hot russian women. preferably with that sociopathic thousand yard soulless stare.

EatHam: Father_Jack: russian coders think outside the box a little bit better. indian coders are automatons

Russian coders think like this, but Indian coders think like this. And all of them are exactly the same.

C coders think like struct.

Father_Jack: ussian coders think outside the box a little bit better. indian coders are automatons and follow only the spec in front of them and dont interpret anything. you will never ever here a an indian offshore developer say "yeah i know what you meant to say here so i did it the right way, you might wanna fix your spec".

It has to be a culture thing. It has nothing to do with outsourcing. I work with them, as in sit right next to Indians. They will do exactly what you ask and nothing more. I'd be better off with an autonomous robot. Indians and Chinese will repeatedly do a task over and over again sometimes up to a year, but when something breaks it's me that gets called down to the test cell.

"You see this 1, it needs to be a 0. Have you not noticed that it was a 0 the entire last year. I don't know how it got changed. Have you not been paying attention for the last year"

"Well, I've just been following the instructions."

[Rage Face].

Every single other international student (German, French, Eastern European, etc) will do as I meant and not as I asked.
-
Part of it is "White God" I swear. In India dark skin is bad, they had advertisements for skin lightening everywhere. If I lost it and told a german he's a farking idiot and farked up big time what the hell was he thinking. There's a good chance I'd get the same thing back. Tell that to an Indian, you'll get a "I'm so sorry sir." 95% of the time.

EatHam: darkscout: Part of it is "White God" I swear. In India dark skin is bad,

it doesn't have anything to do with skin color, it's power distance, and it isn't a problem unless you aren't aware how to work in various environments.

Power Distance?

Russia is the same distance, roughly, from here as India.

And even that's a moot point when they're both within 100 feet of my desk.

EatHam: darkscout: Power Distance?

Power distance. It's how different groups view hierarchy. Groups with a low power distance would be more likely to question authority, and have a flatter organizational structure. Groups with a high power distance would be more likely to have what we'd consider micromanagement, and a more formal management system. It's a thing.

yeah its a lot of this.

generally speaking indians cannot shake off their relationship with hierarchy. in this regard they're very, very "asian". Even if Suthranimamanasurinamthan knows youre wrong, he will not tell you or do the right thing, he'll do what you say. This of course becomes milder over time and tends to not be sooo much of an issue with indians in the US who have been there a significant amount of time, but is very much an issue with your outsourced provider or that guy from the outsource provider who's there onsite for a year before rotating back.

The trick to communicating with and getting good results out of indian development teams is learning the right questions to ask.

if you ask a status report on a public forum, like a conf call or in a meeting, you will never be told things are wrong. everythign will be ok, because admitting things are going badly is face losing. Similarly, if you want to make an indian your enemy for life, call him out in a public forum and make him look bad. You will never, ever be forgiven and it will never be forgotten.

You have to be specific with the questions about the work at hand, like specific elements of the Work break down structure:

dont ask "are we tracking, are we green".
ask "the data migration planning is scheduled to be complete this friday. your % complete in the status report is yellow, yet you only have 20% of a 4 week task completed. can you explain this a little further"
ask "you guys were to have all p1 defects checked in this week, yet there are still some open ones. Do you need further assistence, or do you think you will still hit that deadline? Can i get you more resources, or ask for a delay?"

The Russian developers ive worked with have either been bat shiat crazy insane (in a good mad scientist *ITS ALIIIIVE!! ALIIIIIIVE!!!" kinda way), or were bat shiat crazy insane (in a homicidal staring "i crush you like bug" not good way) QA engineers and testers.

The first group were some of the most amazing, bright, talented, incredibly hard working 80hr week at crunch time kinda mad geniuses who i would put on a death march and theyd pull it thru with nothing but a bag of cashews and a red bull.

the other group you just stayed away from and made sure to never meet them in a dark alley. except the women. then they were hot and hotter still because they had a russian accent and that 1000 yard soulless stare i mentioned earlier.

now somoene PLEASE POST SOME HOT RUSSIANS.

Father_Jack: The Russian developers ive worked with have either been bat shiat crazy insane (in a good mad scientist *ITS ALIIIIVE!! ALIIIIIIVE!!!" kinda way), or were bat shiat crazy insane (in a homicidal staring "i crush you like bug" not good way) QA engineers and testers.

My roommate freshmen year was Ukrainian. Moved here when he was 14, his dad was a professor.

With in 2 weeks everyone in our dorm named him Crazy Alex. Absolutely insane. He'd also try to scam you out of your shoes if he could.

Another similar thing between those 2 cultures. Both think that life is some street market and would try to get you out of a few bucks. One of my indian coworkers flips cars. He searches craigslist and ebay. Buys them, flies there and drives them back. Then resells them. He makes 90k a year and he insists on flipping cars.

EatHam: Power distance. I

Phrase of the day. Lots of good reading. Wiki too

Judging by the quality control of their manufacturing sector's I have worked with I have confidence in the fact that only 80% of their electronics will be unusable. The other 20% will probably work 30% of the time.

To think Russians couldn't be competent programmers, sounds like some left over, cold war, McCarthiest bullsh(t. A few Russian developers I've worked with, create brilliant, rock solid code and actually think outside the box. They actually apply theory.

Some Farkers worry about corruption in Russia. Duh. Like it doesn't exist in China, Russia and the entire Western World? In the West, it's called Consulting. And Consultants do things like sell pipe dreams about Offshoring and consulting. In the US, you have socialism too. Who bailed out your banks and auto manufacturers?

Anyway India should be worried. Development is being commoditized and will move to the lowest dollar that has an educated work force. You now get your German engineering from Mexico.

From what I keep hearing from the BBC and Australian news sources, Russia is one of the most corrupt places to do business in. You have to bribe your way to do anything and keep on Putin's good side (something Putin can steal and use later in the economy) or you are not going to make it.