Crosshair: There are plenty of other places around the world to invest in that are not going bankrupt from the warfare/welfare state

I practically cornered the market in inflatable yurts in Ulan Bator for a mere $5k.

Crosshair: Well there's your problem article writer, you're only looking at Europe and the US. There are plenty of other places around the world to invest in that are not going bankrupt from the warfare/welfare state.

China? I'd be a bit wary of an market until Europe resolves. Cash and precious metals are king right now.

Peruvian bat guano futures FTW!

Fark the markets, how about a good year for the workers?

Is this where I brag about my portfolio and my home mortgage rate?

/typical mortgage rate
//portfolio isn't going up or down

Fail in Human Form: Fark the markets investors, how about a good year for the workers?

Fixed that for you.
Hate how the narrative always seems to be about the investors, not the people who do the actual work.

Sergeant Grumbles: Fail in Human Form: Fark the markets investors, how about a good year for the workers?

Fixed that for you.
Hate how the narrative always seems to be about the investors, not the people who do the actual work.

Totally agree. Stupid investors. Everything is all their fault. Somebody should make it illegal for anybody to front the money for a good business idea. That will put everyone back to work!!!

Brontes: Crosshair: Well there's your problem article writer, you're only looking at Europe and the US. There are plenty of other places around the world to invest in that are not going bankrupt from the warfare/welfare state.

China? I'd be a bit wary of an[y] market until Europe resolves. Cash and precious metals are king right now.
ftfy

China's problems might end up overshadowing Europe's.

Property Prices Collapse in China. Is This a Crash? (new window)

the fundamentals are good

there's a reason Buffett is buying

I'm investing in manure digesters/methane generators...

/planning to run Barter Town

A headline for 100 years after that:

Attention all markets in the solar federation...
We have assumed control!

RumsfeldsReplacement: Somebody should make it illegal for anybody to front the money for a good business idea.

Isn't the average piece of stock held for something like 26 seconds?

RumsfeldsReplacement: Somebody should make it illegal for anybody to front the money for a good business idea.

If you think this is today's "investing" is, then you haven't been paying attention.

Fail in Human Form: RumsfeldsReplacement: Somebody should make it illegal for anybody to front the money for a good business idea.

Isn't the average piece of stock held for something like 26 seconds?

Heh, delicious retort, but that's probably because most market transactions are made by high-frequency trading machines. Average individual investors hold stock much longer than that I'm sure..

Fail in Human Form: Isn't the average piece of stock held for something like 26 seconds?

Missed that before I posted. Something like that. This isn't investing in a good business plan, this is "How much can I skim off the top while no one is looking?"

Smagma: Heh, delicious retort, but that's probably because most market transactions are made by high-frequency trading machines. Average individual investors hold stock much longer than that I'm sure..

Should there be limits to high frequency trading? I'm all in favor of it.
What is actually produced when a computer can make billions appear from stock price fluctuations?
Can we put a limit on time held? At least a minute? An hour? A day? A week? The stock market adds liquidity, but is that really a good thing when a half-second spike in Apple stock lets some investor pull $5 million out of his ass?

Same thing for speculations. I've always been a fan of the idea that you're only allowed to speculate on oil if you have the facilities to actually house what you bought.

Sergeant Grumbles: What is actually produced when a computer can make billions appear from stock price fluctuations?

Billions.

Sergeant Grumbles: Smagma: Heh, delicious retort, but that's probably because most market transactions are made by high-frequency trading machines. Average individual investors hold stock much longer than that I'm sure..

Should there be limits to high frequency trading? I'm all in favor of it.
Can we put a limit on time held? At least a minute? An hour? A day? A week? The stock market adds liquidity, but is that really a good thing when a half-second spike in Apple stock lets some investor pull $5 million out of his ass?

Same thing for speculations. I've always been a fan of the idea that you're only allowed to speculate on oil if you have the facilities to actually house what you bought.

Hell, even a 5-second minimum would render the high-freq trading obsolete..

As for oil speculation, it has definitely been showing its potential for manipulation in the past few years. You're right, we'd get MUCH more honest contract values if bidders were required to take shipment of the contracts they win. Instead, the process just goes on constant limbo due to the inherent loopholes in the system..

stiletto_the_wise: Sergeant Grumbles: What is actually produced when a computer can make billions appear from stock price fluctuations?

Billions.

Laconic wit abounds in this thread.

I mean, what of solid value, what of actual worth, is produced by manipulating the numbers. Sure, the investor gets billions, but all it does is inflate a bubble. Can someone explain to me why creating all this phantom wealth is a good thing?

Sergeant Grumbles: Smagma: Heh, delicious retort, but that's probably because most market transactions are made by high-frequency trading machines. Average individual investors hold stock much longer than that I'm sure..

Should there be limits to high frequency trading? I'm all in favor of it.
What is actually produced when a computer can make billions appear from stock price fluctuations?
Can we put a limit on time held? At least a minute? An hour? A day? A week? The stock market adds liquidity, but is that really a good thing when a half-second spike in Apple stock lets some investor pull $5 million out of his ass?

Same thing for speculations. I've always been a fan of the idea that you're only allowed to speculate on oil if you have the facilities to actually house what you bought.

How about if you own a business that's sensitive to oil prices, like a travel agency that books cruises or a farm? Should you be allowed to buy/sell oil futures to mitigate your risk, or is that "speculative"?

Smagma: Sergeant Grumbles: Smagma: Heh, delicious retort, but that's probably because most market transactions are made by high-frequency trading machines. Average individual investors hold stock much longer than that I'm sure..

Should there be limits to high frequency trading? I'm all in favor of it.
Can we put a limit on time held? At least a minute? An hour? A day? A week? The stock market adds liquidity, but is that really a good thing when a half-second spike in Apple stock lets some investor pull $5 million out of his ass?

Same thing for speculations. I've always been a fan of the idea that you're only allowed to speculate on oil if you have the facilities to actually house what you bought.

Hell, even a 5-second minimum would render the high-freq trading obsolete..

As for oil speculation, it has definitely been showing its potential for manipulation in the past few years. You're right, we'd get MUCH more honest contract values if bidders were required to take shipment of the contracts they win. Instead, the process just goes on constant limbo due to the inherent loopholes in the system..

Start imposing burdensome controls in the US markets and you'll see markets created elsewhere, like China. Fact is, there are people who want to do these kinds of trades, and there are many countries who would be willing to accommodate them.

jjorsett: How about if you own a business that's sensitive to oil prices, like a travel agency that books cruises or a farm? Should you be allowed to buy/sell oil futures to mitigate your risk, or is that "speculative"?

I'd err on the side of speculative.
The travel agency is just a middle man, the cruise line would have greater stake in oil prices. But in all cases, these endeavors are worried about fuel, not oil. They really want to mitigate risk, they cut a deal with their fuel supplier, not speculate on what the price of oil will be by the time it arrives to the refinery.

jjorsett: Sergeant Grumbles: Smagma: Heh, delicious retort, but that's probably because most market transactions are made by high-frequency trading machines. Average individual investors hold stock much longer than that I'm sure..

Should there be limits to high frequency trading? I'm all in favor of it.
What is actually produced when a computer can make billions appear from stock price fluctuations?
Can we put a limit on time held? At least a minute? An hour? A day? A week? The stock market adds liquidity, but is that really a good thing when a half-second spike in Apple stock lets some investor pull $5 million out of his ass?

Same thing for speculations. I've always been a fan of the idea that you're only allowed to speculate on oil if you have the facilities to actually house what you bought.

How about if you own a business that's sensitive to oil prices, like a travel agency that books cruises or a farm? Should you be allowed to buy/sell oil futures to mitigate your risk, or is that "speculative"?

That's crazy. What kind of travel agency books a farm?

Sergeant Grumbles: I mean, what of solid value, what of actual worth, is produced by manipulating the numbers. Sure, the investor gets billions, but all it does is inflate a bubble. Can someone explain to me why creating all this phantom wealth is a good thing?

Tell the people who don't have to work another day in their lives because of high frequency trading that their wealth is 'phantom'. I assure you it's very real.

Smagma: Sergeant Grumbles: Smagma: Heh, delicious retort, but that's probably because most market transactions are made by high-frequency trading machines. Average individual investors hold stock much longer than that I'm sure..

Should there be limits to high frequency trading? I'm all in favor of it.
Can we put a limit on time held? At least a minute? An hour? A day? A week? The stock market adds liquidity, but is that really a good thing when a half-second spike in Apple stock lets some investor pull $5 million out of his ass?

Same thing for speculations. I've always been a fan of the idea that you're only allowed to speculate on oil if you have the facilities to actually house what you bought.

Hell, even a 5-second minimum would render the high-freq trading obsolete..

There have also been proposals of a small financial transactions tax -- something like 0.1% per trade. It eats into the margins that high-speed trading depends on, and it's a revenue source.

stiletto_the_wise: Tell the people who don't have to work another day in their lives because of high frequency trading that their wealth is 'phantom'. I assure you it's very real.

It's real until everyone sees the man behind the curtain and a trillion dollars disappears into the ether. Why don't those parasites get a real job?

Crosshair: There are plenty of other places around the world to invest in that are not going bankrupt from the warfare/welfare state.

I realize that's the standard libertarian narrative for the crisis, but explain to me how, say, Ireland's financial troubles are the fault of "the warfare/welfare state".

Even Greece, with it's ludicrously over-generous welfare state, is in trouble more due to governmental and financial corruption.

RumsfeldsReplacement: Sergeant Grumbles: Fail in Human Form: Fark the markets investors, how about a good year for the workers?

Fixed that for you.
Hate how the narrative always seems to be about the investors, not the people who do the actual work.

Totally agree. Stupid investors. Everything is all their fault. Somebody should make it illegal for anybody to front the money for a good business idea. That will put everyone back to work!!!

Sergeant Grumbles: stiletto_the_wise: Tell the people who don't have to work another day in their lives because of high frequency trading that their wealth is 'phantom'. I assure you it's very real.

It's real until everyone sees the man behind the curtain and a trillion dollars disappears into the ether. Why don't those parasites get a real job?

Wealth should be created by labor, ideas, or services. Investing in one of these would ideally yield a profit, but not always. Wealth should not be "created" by microsecond trades or betting on commodities when you don't have a dog in the fight.

And financial advisors are about as effective, sometimes less so, than flipping a coin.
Pascal would have had a field day in this day and age of mercantilism.

I have an idea to discourage High Frequency Trading. A 5c tax on every share bought and sold (buyer pays 5c, seller pays same). Yeah, I know, it's a tax on "job creators" but I don't give a shiat.

Evilsmurf: I have an idea to discourage High Frequency Trading. A 5c tax on every share bought and sold (buyer pays 5c, seller pays same). Yeah, I know, it's a tax on "job creators" but I don't give a shiat.

High speed investing doesn't create jobs. The investors have no interest in what they're buying aside from one number being higher than another number.

Sergeant Grumbles: Evilsmurf: I have an idea to discourage High Frequency Trading. A 5c tax on every share bought and sold (buyer pays 5c, seller pays same). Yeah, I know, it's a tax on "job creators" but I don't give a shiat.

High speed investing doesn't create jobs. The investors have no interest in what they're buying aside from one number being higher than another number.

I'm well aware of that truth. Please inform the guys in Congress with an R next to their name.

Evilsmurf: Please inform the guys in Congress with an R next to their name.

I'm sure they know too. They'll just make more money by ignoring your suggestion.