If the Spitfire was a woman, I would ditch my wife, stab my best friend in the back, embezzle money from widows and steal charity boxes for a night in the sack with her. And at least my friend would understand.
Seriously, that design was something else. The wing structure meant that it could outdive just about anything else- and I mean anything- in the war. In the last year of the war, Me262's would make surprise attacks, and then dive away to safety. Or so they thought, right until the moment cannon shells started tearing apart those delicate Jumo engines.

Bugger ... I should have submitted this with any headline when I was reading it yesterday.

Crosshair: Don't worry, those Brownings will be cut up with a blowtorch. Can't have guns laying around, no matter how historically valuable they are. Cause apparently they get up and walk around hurting people/

The ATF cut up the Pioneer-Eclipse 20mm Hispano-Suiza Cannon from the "Glacier Girl" P-38, which was one of only 60 prototypes produced and the only one that still existed. Yes, a priceless historical artifact, the only one still in existence, and pigs at the ATF took a blowtorch to it. The Air Force museum doesn't have one. The Army's Ordnance museum at Aberdeen doesn't have one. Some bureaucratic drone decided unilaterally to have the last one torched while underhandedly failing to disclose any alternative.

Considering the publicity surrounding Glacier Girl's extraction, I'm really surprised and disappointed at the same time that had happened. Such farking ignorance and stupidity, and how come nobody had the real balls to stand up to those ignorant ATF fark-sticks.

Crosshair: Don't worry, those Brownings will be cut up with a blowtorch. Can't have guns laying around, no matter how historically valuable they are. Cause apparently they get up and walk around hurting people/

"The guns will be made safe".

Yep, that sounds like a cement fillin to me. What better way to teach history than to have a demo of that to some school kids and tell them that at times there would be dens of dozens of those overhead firing at Ze Germans.

Must be blind. Cannot find the video link...

"The machine guns will now be made safe"

...and that's just a crying shame.
They survived the war, they survived the crash, they were made fully operational and now the governments just going to trash them because "lol, guns!".

For what its worth they could have just stuffed cardboard tubes in the wings and preserved these functional relics in lockup.
No, instead they wreck their own history because some politician is afraid of old scrap metal reminding people of the days when British leaders had balls.

/It really is absurd.

In before 'cant buy me love' boneyard ref.

/you all suck
//and are gay
///and homophobic
/.gop?

Headlines lead one to believe the guns still worked while the fine print notes that they made one gun out of parts from six while no doubt restoring each part as they went. And they used new ammo. So no, not particularly impressive.

It says "Time to 20k feet: 7 minutes"
You have no freaking clue how fast this is for a single piston engine, even for today's standards.

Hell, a turboprop Pilatus PC-6 does it in 12 minutes.

the First of the Few (IMDB, new window)

Frothy Panties: Must be blind. Cannot find the video link...

Halfway down the article, the stylised i for iPlayer turns red as your mouse passes over it.

Google T-34 english russia.

Peat does amazing things. They pulled a Captured T-34 in German markings out of a bog, it was in amazing condition. Only took a little work to get it started.

way south: "The machine guns will now be made safe"

...and that's just a crying shame.
They survived the war, they survived the crash, they were made fully operational and now the governments just going to trash them because "lol, guns!".

For what its worth they could have just stuffed cardboard tubes in the wings and preserved these functional relics in lockup.
No, instead they wreck their own history because some politician is afraid of old scrap metal reminding people of the days when British leaders had balls.

/It really is absurd.

oh we've still got balls it's the politicians who are in the lacking department.

dofus: Headlines lead one to believe the guns still worked while the fine print notes that they made one gun out of parts from six while no doubt restoring each part as they went. And they used new ammo. So no, not particularly impressive.

Except that the Irish army did that in the field, so it wasn't a "careful restoration" job just a couple of soldiers bodging it together.

Crosshair: Don't worry, those Brownings will be cut up with a blowtorch. Can't have guns laying around, no matter how historically valuable they are. Cause apparently they get up and walk around hurting people/

The ATF cut up the Pioneer-Eclipse 20mm Hispano-Suiza Cannon from the "Glacier Girl" P-38, which was one of only 60 prototypes produced and the only one that still existed. Yes, a priceless historical artifact, the only one still in existence, and pigs at the ATF took a blowtorch to it. The Air Force museum doesn't have one. The Army's Ordnance museum at Aberdeen doesn't have one. Some bureaucratic drone decided unilaterally to have the last one torched while underhandedly failing to disclose any alternative.



a) it's in Ireland so WTF mention the ATF?
b) thanks awfully, but there are still a number of people in Ireland who would rather like to get their hands on some working machine guns if they could, so it's probably best that they are not left lying around in working order. Exactly how many working firearms are kept on display in museums? Not many - they're deactivated before going on display, otherwise they would be a prime target for terrorists and criminals to steal. Much easier to deactivate and keep them on display than to securely store working guns.
c) FTFA "The Irish specialists had chosen the best preserved body and added parts from all six guns, like the breech block and the spring, to assemble one that they thought would fire" - they had to take apart the six guns in order to make one that works
d) FTFA "The machine guns will now be made safe and join the rest of the aircraft on permanent display in Derry" - i.e. prevented from firing again, but that's hardly cutting them up now is it?

But still, you carry on with your nonsense.

Of *COURSE* the Browning was built to last. It was designed by John Moses Browning, the best firearms designer *EVAR*. His M-2 design is *STILL* used, to this day, as is the 1911, the Model 94. To put it in perspective, just about every large caliber semiautomatic handgun uses the short-recoil system he designed. He designed long recoil, short recoil, lever action, single shot actions, gas operated actions. He designed rifles, handguns, shotguns, and light, medium, and heavy machine guns.

He makes Mikhail Kalashnikov look like the one trick pony that he is. Oh, and Kalashnikov cribbed bits of his gun from the Browning designed Remington Model 8 Police.

tfm_copycat: It says "Time to 20k feet: 7 minutes"
You have no freaking clue how fast this is for a single piston engine, even for today's standards.

Hell, a turboprop Pilatus PC-6 does it in 12 minutes.

that'll be the merlin engine it makes the most amazing sound and it's what turned the P51 from a wannabe to into an absolute beast of a fighter.

gorgeous

cynicalbastard: If the Spitfire was a woman, I would ditch my wife, stab my best friend in the back, embezzle money from widows and steal charity boxes for a night in the sack with her. And at least my friend would understand.
Seriously, that design was something else. The wing structure meant that it could outdive just about anything else- and I mean anything- in the war. In the last year of the war, Me262's would make surprise attacks, and then dive away to safety. Or so they thought, right until the moment cannon shells started tearing apart those delicate Jumo engines.

A P-47 would put a Spit's diving capability to shame.

"Nothing dives like a jug."

Of course, I would still rather be in a spit anyday.

dittybopper: Of *COURSE* the Browning was built to last. It was designed by John Moses Browning, the best firearms designer *EVAR*. His M-2 design is *STILL* used, to this day, as is the 1911, the Model 94. To put it in perspective, just about every large caliber semiautomatic handgun uses the short-recoil system he designed. He designed long recoil, short recoil, lever action, single shot actions, gas operated actions. He designed rifles, handguns, shotguns, and light, medium, and heavy machine guns.

He makes Mikhail Kalashnikov look like the one trick pony that he is. Oh, and Kalashnikov cribbed bits of his gun from the Browning designed Remington Model 8 Police.

id say he was more heavily influenced by the Stgw 44.

It's disappointing all around - ruining six well-preserved historical artifacts to make a single worthless one.

They should have taken all six, removed the firing pins, disabled the trigger groups, then plugged the barrels and put them ALL in a museum instead of cobbling them together into one clusterfark.. which they're going to disable in that manner anyways.

I'm going to do a big arms thing as well

John Browning was a genius. That is all.

way south : No, instead they wreck their own history because some politician is afraid of old scrap metal reminding people of the days when British leaders had balls.

Well, you know... Someone might rob a well-guarded museum, steal a very heavy belt-fed gun, stuff all 38" of it down their pants, homee-style, and blow away a group of orphans in the subway. If the 70 year old worn, corroded, and crash-fatigued metal didn't blow up in this hypothetical action hero's face by the third round (TFA fired it from a trench by remote control for a damned good reason).

Yeah, not a gun nut myself, but some of these anti-gun nuts make the gun-nuts look well-adjusted by comparison.

man, surprised this turned into a C&R gun thread.

here i'll start with mine:

Russian Mosin Nagant 91/30, M44, SKS, SVT40
French Berthier 1907/15 infantry longrifle (made during verdun) and Mousqueton D'artillerie (interwar period)
SMLE No1 Mk3 (ww2 aussie lithgow)
German K98 (russian capture)
Swiss G11 and 2 of the K31s, the best most amazing bolt action rifle ever issued to any army.
mossberg 44 .22
Belgian made Egyptian FN49
czech vz24

Dirk Pitt would like this delivered to his hanger next to the Messerschmidt and tri engine ford.

Father_Jack: K31s, the best most amazing bolt action rifle ever issued to any army.

Awww yeah. I got mine on the cheap because it didn't have the nametag or anything cool with it. What a fantastic gun. I slugged the barrel, cast my own bullets, and reload for it. By far my favorite military surplus rifle. I'm looking into getting bullet molds for my Mosin, as well.

Crosshair: . Some bureaucratic drone decided unilaterally to have the last one torched while underhandedly failing to disclose any alternative.

And you would expect anything less from a civilian government employee?

Father_Jack: dittybopper: Of *COURSE* the Browning was built to last. It was designed by John Moses Browning, the best firearms designer *EVAR*. His M-2 design is *STILL* used, to this day, as is the 1911, the Model 94. To put it in perspective, just about every large caliber semiautomatic handgun uses the short-recoil system he designed. He designed long recoil, short recoil, lever action, single shot actions, gas operated actions. He designed rifles, handguns, shotguns, and light, medium, and heavy machine guns.

He makes Mikhail Kalashnikov look like the one trick pony that he is. Oh, and Kalashnikov cribbed bits of his gun from the Browning designed Remington Model 8 Police.

id say he was more heavily influenced by the Stgw 44.

You'd be wrong:

Remington Model 8 Police:



The AK basically married a simplified SKS gas mechanism to the Remington Model 8 (which was long recoil operated), and borrowed bits from other designs.

While the AK *LOOKS* similar to the StG-44 externally, that's more a "form follows function" kind of thing. Except for bullpup designs, pretty much *ALL* assault rifles look like the StG-44. There are numerous differences. For example, both the Remington Model 8 and the AK use a rotating bolt, whereas the StG-44 uses a tilting bolt, more akin to the SKS.

In fact, other than dimensional differences necessary for the different cartridges they fire, the bolt on the AK and on the Remington are remarkably similar.

Even though they have a different operating system, Kalashnikov doesn't get a pass: Browning designed the first gas operated guns also, so essentially the AK, and just about all semi and full auto guns (if they use gas, blowback, or recoil operation). The only ones that get a pass are mechanically activated guns, like the Gatling, because they existed before Browning.

teardrop: dofus: Headlines lead one to believe the guns still worked while the fine print notes that they made one gun out of parts from six while no doubt restoring each part as they went. And they used new ammo. So no, not particularly impressive.

Except that the Irish army did that in the field, so it wasn't a "careful restoration" job just a couple of soldiers bodging it together.

I dunno. FTA: "His team painstakingly cleaned the weapons and straightened pieces bent by the impact. Finally, on Tuesday we were able to stand on an old British Army range just north of Athlone for the big day." They dug up the plane in June and the article was published in November.

From Wikipedia: "With assistance from firearms engineers at Fabrique Nationale de Herstal, Belgium, the Model 1919 was completely re-engineered into the .30 caliber M2 AN (Army-Navy) aircraft machine gun." and "In Ordnance circles, the .30 M2 AN Browning had the reputation of being the most difficult-to-repair weapon in the entire US small arms inventory."

I thought the "M2" was known as the "Ma Duce," a heavy 50 cal machine gun.

Anyway, I'm not criticizing the work, just the reporting. I would have loved to be part of the rebuild effort.

Frothy Panties: Must be blind. Cannot find the video link...

Photo of the two guys holding the gun. Play button center of left side.

mrpants5587: cynicalbastard: If the Spitfire was a woman, I would ditch my wife, stab my best friend in the back, embezzle money from widows and steal charity boxes for a night in the sack with her. And at least my friend would understand.
Seriously, that design was something else. The wing structure meant that it could outdive just about anything else- and I mean anything- in the war. In the last year of the war, Me262's would make surprise attacks, and then dive away to safety. Or so they thought, right until the moment cannon shells started tearing apart those delicate Jumo engines.

A P-47 would put a Spit's diving capability to shame.

"Nothing dives like a jug."

Of course, I would still rather be in a spit anyday.

The early model Spits engine tended to die in a straight dive (carburetors instead of fuel injection)

My Preference

Pert: i.e. prevented from firing again, but that's hardly cutting them up now is it?

Guns are functional art, like other machines. Its the equivalent of taking a blow torch the engine of a rare sports car so you can display the wreckage "intact". Safe in the knowledge that it will never burn petrol again.

Its not intact, its been desecrated.
That is spiteful work.

Zenith: tfm_copycat: It says "Time to 20k feet: 7 minutes"
You have no freaking clue how fast this is for a single piston engine, even for today's standards.

Hell, a turboprop Pilatus PC-6 does it in 12 minutes.

that'll be the merlin engine it makes the most amazing sound and it's what turned the P51 from a wannabe to into an absolute beast of a fighter.

Wholeheartedly agreed.