I don't sell pets, I offer animal companion dating services.

Good. Pet shops that do that usually get them from puppy mills.

Adopt a pet or at the very least go through a private breeder where the animals are spoken for before they're born.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Good. Pet shops that do that usually get them from puppy mills.

Adopt a pet or at the very least go through a private breeder where the animals are spoken for before they're born.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Good. Pet shops that do that usually get them from puppy mills.

Adopt a pet or at the very least go through a private breeder where the animals are spoken for before they're born.

What about the pet shop boys?

Fresh out of parrots....
/got a slug.

Justin Hau, owner of Ocean Aquarium, a fish store in the Tenderloin, said the commission's latest proposal is another example of The City trying to regulate an industry it doesn't understand.

"We don't sell sick fish and we don't sell unhappy fish," Hau said. "They've never even come down here to talk to me about what I'm actually doing."

Guppy mills are not the problem, you idiot.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Good. Pet shops that do that usually get them from puppy mills.

Adopt a pet or at the very least go through a private breeder where the animals are spoken for before they're born.


+ infinity

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Good. Pet shops that do that usually get them from puppy mills.

Adopt a pet or at the very least go through a private breeder where the animals are spoken for before they're born.

Is that really so much of a problem out in Northern California? I mean, in Missouri, yeah, puppy mills are a major problem, but for some reason, I don't see that being the case in hippie land.

Honestly curious...

/has a puppy mill dog
//he's got his problems, but he's still my buddy
///can't wait to see him over Thanksgiving break.

That article was very hard to read. Ever heard of left-justification?

Anyway, it would be more accurate to call these non-pet-selling establishments "pet supply" stores.

Good. No animals should be sold at pet stores. Stop animal slavery.

macross87: What about the pet shop boys?

I think they can come up with a workable business model. One of them has the brains, one of them has the looks: they'll make lots of money.

After all, there's a lot of opportunities.

We're a free country.
We're a free country.
We're a free country.

That's right, citizen. Keep saying that over and over.

Theaetetus: Justin Hau, owner of Ocean Aquarium, a fish store in the Tenderloin, said the commission's latest proposal is another example of The City trying to regulate an industry it doesn't understand.

"We don't sell sick fish and we don't sell unhappy fish," Hau said. "They've never even come down here to talk to me about what I'm actually doing."

Guppy mills are not the problem, you idiot.

And that's his point. The commission isn't differentiating the types of businesses at all. The pet sale ban that was proposed would have included his business. As does this latest idea.

You idiot.

I understand and applaud the intention, but it's an anathema to me to pay someone or a company not to do something.

tgregory: We're a free country.
We're a free country.
We're a free country.

That's right, citizen. Keep saying that over and over.

Infringing on your right to buy a pet in a pet store in San Francisco! Holy Jesus! Gather the Tea Party! Gather your armies! Call Jessie Watters and James O'Keefe!

Coupla questions here. First, "The City," really?

Second, where am I going to find a private breeder to buy tropical fish?

What about my pet store/ butcher shop in Koreatown?

/aisle please

Satanic_Hamster: Theaetetus: Guppy mills are not the problem, you idiot.

And that's his point. The commission isn't differentiating the types of businesses at all. The pet sale ban that was proposed would have included his business. As does this latest idea.

You idiot.

Kind of an odd ad hominem from Theaetetus, especially since it was so wrong.

cgraves67: I understand and applaud the intention, but it's an anathema to me to pay someone or a company not to do something.

Imagine that you're a person that cares about Vegan food. I'm not, maybe you are, doesn't matter. You want to find vegan restaurants, and see that there are certain places that have "Certified SF Vegan" placards on their shopfront, website, etc... so you know that they've met some objective standard that meets your needs.

What this commission is doing is, essentially, providing a certification process by which consumers who want to get some pet food/accessories but don't want to support pet mills. People care about such things, I suppose, but not enough to call a place ahead of time.

Anyhow what I'm saying is that it may be fluff but they aren't paying them to not sell, but rewarding a dedicated business practice.

[Stupid] indeed. Look at the numbers at the bottom of the article. What the advisory claims it is attempting to do is already being done by the industry itself. This is patently a transparent attempt by PeTA types to END ANIMAL SLAVERY NOW!!!

/oh, pet ownership is animal slavery
//but the pets aren't the slaves

exvaxman: Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Adopt a pet or at the very least go through a private breeder where the animals are spoken for before they're born.

This..

If nothing else, contact your local Humane Society and if you are looking for a special breed, they can point you to a legit rescue site or recommend breeders who fit their standards.

That as well.

I'm just stunned that anyone would be against this.

meat0918: Marine1: Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Good. Pet shops that do that usually get them from puppy mills.

Adopt a pet or at the very least go through a private breeder where the animals are spoken for before they're born.

Is that really so much of a problem out in Northern California? I mean, in Missouri, yeah, puppy mills are a major problem, but for some reason, I don't see that being the case in hippie land.

Honestly curious...

/has a puppy mill dog
//he's got his problems, but he's still my buddy
///can't wait to see him over Thanksgiving break.

Yes they are a problem, and Northern California is not hippie land. It's damn conservative up there. Go 20-30 miles from any major city centered along I-5 and you are in deep, deep red territory.

If it's got San Fran in it, it's hippie land by default. Like how Texas is redneck land but Austin is filled with hipsters. Missouri is an uneducated meth state even though Boeing Defense is based in St. Louis and Kansas City is a center for a lot of the communications gear that keeps the US connected. You can either laugh at relatively harmless stereotype jokes online or be offended.

Nothing "stupid" about that, subby.

bump: He said there are plenty of adoptable animals at shelters and animal control centers - enough so that pets should not be "produced" by private businesses.

So what about those of us who responsibly own pure breeds? I realize there are plenty of mixed breeds out there that are supposed to find homes through shelters, etc. - but what do those of us who raise and compete pedigree competitions? We'll have to go out of state/city to find the mix of our choosing now - or move out of the 'home of the unwashed hippy'...

Nice yorb main

I would argue that maintaining certain breeds with congenital defects (breathing, hips, etc.) is form of animal cruelty all in itself. Such breeders belong in the same circle of Hell reserved for parents that whore-up their young daughters for child pageants.

Theaetetus: Justin Hau, owner of Ocean Aquarium, a fish store in the Tenderloin, said the commission's latest proposal is another example of The City trying to regulate an industry it doesn't understand.

"We don't sell sick fish and we don't sell unhappy fish," Hau said. "They've never even come down here to talk to me about what I'm actually doing."

Guppy mills are not the problem, you idiot.

Apparently the problem is that small businessmen in San Francisco have been so cowed by regulation that they are incapable of making their own signs.

Not stupid at all, Subby. It's actually a good idea. Most pet stores do indeed sell puppy/kitten mill animals. Not only are the animals abused and neglected, but the puppies and kittens are usually not well socialized and because of this don't make good pets. The mills care nothing about good breeding programs and the pets often have genetic problems.

Sounds like Communism.

No, really, it sounds like life under the economic mismanagement of centralised planning.

"We're a bakery. We don't have any bread."
"We're a pet shop. We don't have any pets."

tgregory: We're a free country.
We're a free country.
We're a free country.

That's right, citizen. Keep saying that over and over.

I'd rather live in a country that is governed by the rule of law with lawmakers accountable to the people than a "Free Country".

Rude Turnip: bump: He said there are plenty of adoptable animals at shelters and animal control centers - enough so that pets should not be "produced" by private businesses.

So what about those of us who responsibly own pure breeds? I realize there are plenty of mixed breeds out there that are supposed to find homes through shelters, etc. - but what do those of us who raise and compete pedigree competitions? We'll have to go out of state/city to find the mix of our choosing now - or move out of the 'home of the unwashed hippy'...

Nice yorb main

I would argue that maintaining certain breeds with congenital defects (breathing, hips, etc.) is form of animal cruelty all in itself. Such breeders belong in the same circle of Hell reserved for parents that whore-up their young daughters for child pageants.

So the kids have puppies to play with?

sleep lack: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x301]
Fresh out of parrots....
/got a slug.

I'm going to ask you just one more time...

JackieRabbit: Not stupid at all, Subby. It's actually a good idea. Most pet stores do indeed sell puppy/kitten mill animals

Most?

[citation needed]

Would that include the nation's leading pet retailers like Petco? Nope, they don't sell dogs or cats. In fact, they host massive adoption events all the time. How about Petsmart? Not them either, as far as I know every location actually keeps sheltered cats for adoption purposes.

Are there stores that sell puppy mill pets? I'm sure there are, but it's pretty clear that the city has no idea about how many but are happy with a blanket regulation that will impact plenty of innocent stores. Regulations like this would simply push those sales to other sources, like Craigslist. Puppy mills won't disappear as a result of this rule, they will merely change how they do business.

Also, I wonder how many stores would be able to cheat and get the bonus. Target and Walmart sell pet supplies, should they get a reward too? If I open a small in home customized dog collar business, should I get the bonus? Probably not, because my primary market would be for the sex trade, but that's beside the point, I'm sure there are some less scrupulous perverts who would take advantage.

/has a shelter dog that's 1000 times better than a pure breed

I shop at my LFS (Local FISH stores). They do NOT sell dogs or cats or birds or reptiles... only fish and fish supplies. I am a huge reef fanatic. So, where does one go to buy saltwater fish? There are only a handful of saltwater fish that are "milled out". Clownfish are probably the biggest "milled" fish (which I do think is a problem, way too much inbreeding). 99% of saltwater fish can't even be bred in captivity. There are programs already in place in collection locations around the world to ensure the practice is sustainable and not harming the local habitat. In Hawaii, it has actually been shown that proactive measures to regulate the amount of fish taken has actually increased the local fish population, not decreased it.

These people that are trying to force their views about selling pets need to have their heads examined. I understand they are upset about "puppy mills" but they are taking their anger out on every aspect of the pet selling trade. They should put their focus on the areas that are actually problems, which are the "mills", and yes, even clownfish mills should be included, but that doesn't mean other fish that are not even possible to captively breed should be lumped in as part of the problem and make pet shop owners look bad. What about placed like PetSmart? They have dogs, but the dogs are from the local animal rescue facility.. so which is it? Do they get a sign saying they are a good business or not? They don't sell "milled" dogs, actually, they don't sell any dogs, they just provide a location for the local animal rescue facility to show pets needing homes in a location that usually has much more traffic.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Good. Pet shops that do that usually get them from puppy mills.

Adopt a pet or at the very least go through a private breeder where the animals are spoken for before they're born.

chapman: J

Are there stores that sell puppy mill pets? I'm sure there are, but it's pretty clear that the city has no idea about how many but are happy with a blanket regulation that will impact plenty of innocent stores. Regulations like this would simply push those sales to other sources, like Craigslist. Puppy mills won't disappear as a result of this rule, they will merely change how they do business.

Also, I wonder how many stores would be able to cheat and get the bonus. Target and Walmart sell pet supplies, should they get a reward too? If I open a small in home customized dog collar business, should I get the bonus? Probably not, because my primary market would be for the sex trade, but that's beside the point, I'm sure there are some less scrupulous perverts who would take advantage.

/has a shelter dog that's 1000 times better than a pure breed

So it would only make it more difficult for puppy mills to do business instead of putting them out of business? How is that a bad thing?

What is the "bonus" and "reward" you're talking about? The program in the article lets pet stores that don't sell animals put a freaking sign in their window.

cgraves67: I understand and applaud the intention, but it's an anathema to me to pay someone or a company not to do something.

There's nothing in the article about anyone getting paid. It's about the city letting pet supply stores put signs in their windows telling customers that they've chosen not to sell live animals for obvious ethical reasons. Something a customer might appreciate knowing.

Ace25: I shop at my LFS (Local FISH stores). They do NOT sell dogs or cats or birds or reptiles... only fish and fish supplies. I am a huge reef fanatic. So, where does one go to buy saltwater fish? There are only a handful of saltwater fish that are "milled out". Clownfish are probably the biggest "milled" fish (which I do think is a problem, way too much inbreeding). 99% of saltwater fish can't even be bred in captivity. There are programs already in place in collection locations around the world to ensure the practice is sustainable and not harming the local habitat. In Hawaii, it has actually been shown that proactive measures to regulate the amount of fish taken has actually increased the local fish population, not decreased it.

These people that are trying to force their views about selling pets need to have their heads examined. I understand they are upset about "puppy mills" but they are taking their anger out on every aspect of the pet selling trade. They should put their focus on the areas that are actually problems, which are the "mills", and yes, even clownfish mills should be included, but that doesn't mean other fish that are not even possible to captively breed should be lumped in as part of the problem and make pet shop owners look bad. What about placed like PetSmart? They have dogs, but the dogs are from the local animal rescue facility.. so which is it? Do they get a sign saying they are a good business or not? They don't sell "milled" dogs, actually, they don't sell any dogs, they just provide a location for the local animal rescue facility to show pets needing homes in a location that usually has much more traffic.

You're overthinking this. The "bonus" is a sign. Basically a gold star from their nannies.

chapman: Most?

[citation needed]

You know that I meant pet shops that sell pets and not pet supply stores like PetSmart and Petco,. So stop being so trolly. And go look up puppy/kitten mills yourself. Small locally-owned pet shops often use local, reputable breeders. But the chains usually do not. Some pet shops use what is known as a "back yard breeder," who is only trying to make a few bucks and has no training in good animal husbandry. They can be just as bad as the mills in terms of quality and treatment of their animals. This has been known and combated by both animal rights activists and governments for decades now. And the best breeders never sell their animals through pet stores. They understand that the educated buyer wants to see their breeding facility, get information on their breeding program, meet the sire and the dame and inspect their pedigrees, and select a puppy or kitten from a litter based on a number of criteria. This cannot be done in a pet store.

Carth: o it would only make it more difficult for puppy mills to do business instead of putting them out of business? How is that a bad thing?


Consider that maybe pet stores create incentives for better care for the pets than they would otherwise receive. Pet stores have buyers who know what to look out for better than some schmuck buying off the internet. Pet stores will make sure the puppies are a certain minimum age before buying, for one. Also, it might very well make it more profitable for the puppy millers. They sell the dogs at the market rate instead of the reduced rate it goes for when selling to a retailer. So it could create less healthy dogs and more profits for the millers. I would call that a bad thing.

What is the "bonus" and "reward" you're talking about? The program in the article lets pet stores that don't sell animals put a freaking sign in their window.

Oh that. That's me just being an idiot for not RTFA closely.

Pet stores that don't sell pets are called zoos

chapman: Carth: o it would only make it more difficult for puppy mills to do business instead of putting them out of business? How is that a bad thing?


Consider that maybe pet stores create incentives for better care for the pets than they would otherwise receive. Pet stores have buyers who know what to look out for better than some schmuck buying off the internet. Pet stores will make sure the puppies are a certain minimum age before buying, for one. Also, it might very well make it more profitable for the puppy millers. They sell the dogs at the market rate instead of the reduced rate it goes for when selling to a retailer. So it could create less healthy dogs and more profits for the millers. I would call that a bad thing.



I've never found a petstore that will even admit to buying from puppy mills but they all want puppies and kittens when they are young and cute . No responsible breeder will ever sell to a pet store ,and no responsible buyer will ever buy a cat/dog from a pet store (no idea about birds or fish since i've never owned one). I've seen dogs as young as 7 weeks in a pet store before which is way too young for them to leave their mother

Puppy mills, unlike backyard breeders, sell in volume. We busted up one here last month and removed over 500 dogs from a facility being run by 4 people. The dogs lived in little chicken wire cages and were sold all over North America. (another 70 were born within 2 weeks). Without petstores it is almost impossible for these places to sell that many dogs. Yes people will still buy them off craigslist and the internet but demand is reduced so they breed less puppies.

Carth: chapman: Carth: o it would only make it more difficult for puppy mills to do business instead of putting them out of business? How is that a bad thing?


Consider that maybe pet stores create incentives for better care for the pets than they would otherwise receive. Pet stores have buyers who know what to look out for better than some schmuck buying off the internet. Pet stores will make sure the puppies are a certain minimum age before buying, for one. Also, it might very well make it more profitable for the puppy millers. They sell the dogs at the market rate instead of the reduced rate it goes for when selling to a retailer. So it could create less healthy dogs and more profits for the millers. I would call that a bad thing.



I've never found a petstore that will even admit to buying from puppy mills but they all want puppies and kittens when they are young and cute . No responsible breeder will ever sell to a pet store ,and no responsible buyer will ever buy a cat/dog from a pet store (no idea about birds or fish since i've never owned one). I've seen dogs as young as 7 weeks in a pet store before which is way too young for them to leave their mother

Puppy mills, unlike backyard breeders, sell in volume. We busted up one here last month and removed over 500 dogs from a facility being run by 4 people. The dogs lived in little chicken wire cages and were sold all over North America. (another 70 were born within 2 weeks). Without petstores it is almost impossible for these places to sell that many dogs. Yes people will still buy them off craigslist and the internet but demand is reduced so they breed less puppies.

I don't know how valid the claims are that stores like Petsmart and Petco buy their birds from breeding mills, but it seems fairly reasonable to assume that these birds do not receive the same kind of care as hand raised birds do. Even for birds like finches and parakeets, you're better off finding a reputable breeder than taking risks health and behavior-wise with a store-bought bird.

cheerfulrealist: Even for birds like finches and parakeets, you're better off finding a reputable breeder than taking risks health and behavior-wise with a store-bought bird.

I believe what you say, but it is funny to me worrying about the behavior issues of an animal that will spend its entire life in a cage. "Good birdie... stay in your cell!" "Bad birdie... stay in your cell!"

The HSUS estimates that animal shelters care for 6-8 million dogs and cats every year in the United States, of whom approximately 3-4 million are euthanized.

I rest my case.