This article is dumb and whoever submitted it should feel bad for misrepresenting the data.

Leather helmets are equally effective in reducing concussions. What they aren't so great at protecting against is cracking your goddamn skull open, which is why the change was made.

I'd love to see the NFL go to some sort of leather with shock absorbing padding helmet. Maybe a heavily modified version of the ones boxers uses.


Something to where guys are still protected, but yet morons won't continue leading with their helmets on hits.

Leather helmets were worn before steroids turned football players into specimens of science fiction. Go ahead and find a classic game from before 35 years ago. You'll be astonished by how skinny everybody is.

Ow My Balls: Leather helmets were worn before steroids turned football players into specimens of science fiction. Go ahead and find a classic game from before 35 years ago. You'll be astonished by how skinny everybody is.

You calling Americans fat?!?! *catches breath* Whoa... that took the wind out of me... I need to go get 4 Big Macs for my new meal between breakfast and brunch.

Ow My Balls: Leather helmets were worn before steroids turned football players into specimens of science fiction. Go ahead and find a classic game from before 35 years ago. You'll be astonished by how skinny everybody is.

Correct. Now we have 280lb DE's that run 4.6 40's and have 11' broad jumps.

Ow My Balls: Leather helmets were worn before steroids turned football players into specimens of science fiction. Go ahead and find a classic game from before 35 years ago. You'll be astonished by how skinny everybody is.

I happened to see a picture of the Super Bowl Shuffle record cover recently. I was completely amazed at how normal everyone's body size/shape was without the pads. It was hard to think that that collection of suburban dads were members of the most feared football team of that time, compared to the behemoths running now.

coolio mack: I'd love to see the NFL go to some sort of leather with shock absorbing padding helmet. Maybe a heavily modified version of the ones boxers uses.


Something to where guys are still protected, but yet morons won't continue leading with their helmets on hits.

The point is, when they do lead with their helmets, it won't cause a concussion.

Problem is, no matter what's wrapped 'around' your head, your brain still jolts around at every hit 'inside' your head. When you've got freaks of science/nature/genetics hitting you with the force of a car accident a few dozen times in each game, yeah, your brain is going to take a beating.

Helmets protect the skull, face, etc. But the brain is still wobbling around freely in there regardless of the covering.

Jonny Chimpo: Ow My Balls: Leather helmets were worn before steroids turned football players into specimens of science fiction. Go ahead and find a classic game from before 35 years ago. You'll be astonished by how skinny everybody is.

You calling Americans fat?!?! *catches breath* Whoa... that took the wind out of me... I need to go get 4 Big Macs for my new meal between breakfast and brunch.

You still have defined meals? Pussy.

I wonder what a helmet padded with Tempuredic foam would be like.

ihatedumbpeople: Problem is, no matter what's wrapped 'around' your head, your brain still jolts around at every hit 'inside' your head. When you've got freaks of science/nature/genetics hitting you with the force of a car accident a few dozen times in each game, yeah, your brain is going to take a beating.

Helmets protect the skull, face, etc. But the brain is still wobbling around freely in there regardless of the covering.

True, but there's still value in protecting against helmet-to-helmet impact. If a safety hits a wide receiver in the torso or waist, their heads and shoulders would still move forward a little bit until they're jerked back by the tension in their muscles / ligaments. If there's a head-to-head impact their skulls come to an immediate stop, unless you build a little more "give" into the helmets.

The "helmet effect" is a real problem -- if you're better protected, you'll do things that are riskier and/or will keep doing dangerous/painful things until you're *really* hurt.

There is some merit to the idea that they should be playing *without* helmets. Can't lead with your head, have to be more careful, injuring someone else with a head-first blow would most definitely injure you. But, of course, it would slow the game down, eliminate risky plays and they might as well just start wearing flags and be done with it.

There's no good answer. If the NFL were serious about head injuries and long-term outcomes from playing the game, they'd have a jury of neurologists at every game, MRIs in every stadium, longitudinal neurology studies of every player, mandatory suspensions after hits that cause a player to leave the game, etc. But they aren't. They're interested in PR and profit. So, instead, they'll make a few unhelpful changes and pretend to care.

Given what would happen if they actually made changes that would make a difference, I'm not entirely sure I can blame them.

basemetal: If this man were about to hit you, which helmet would you rather be wearing?

I am amazed that players don't just drop the ball, and their wallet, and run in the other direction whenever he's coming. (Or any one of the many other huge, incredible athletes charging with blood lust in their eyes.)

Which, of course, is why I am only capable of watching the game on TV and snarking about it on Fark.

TheShavingofOccam123: greatgodyoshi: I wonder what a helmet padded with Tempuredic foam would be like.

You could hit spear an opponent and not spill your glass of wine.

Seriously, brain damage is going to continue to occur because the brain is like a basketball in a car. You slam on the brakes and the basketball is not going to stop until it hits the windshield.

Medical science needs to get working on a foam we can inject into the skulls of football players.

SFSailor:

Yes because rugby players are wearing flags.

/I have to say I do like the boxing helmet idea, modified with a face protector (shield or mask).

If they used leather helmets, dudes wouldn't use their heads as weapons.

Ow My Balls: Leather helmets were worn before steroids turned football players into specimens of science fiction. Go ahead and find a classic game from before 35 years ago. You'll be astonished by how skinny everybody is.

But that's not what the study was researching. They didn't look into historical trends of concussions when leather helmets were used vs the current helmet design, that would just be stupid. They looked into how the leather helmets protected against concussive forces vs the current helmets.

On a related note, I'm just curious, and since I'm too lazy to Google it, does anyone know the incidence of skull fractures before they switched to the new style of helmet? There had to have been a major concern of those happening for them to change the style of helmet but clearly that era was well before my time so I don't remember any discussion of them.

Leather helmets aren't as good as the current models for attacking your opponent.

They should build helmets with reactive armor, like on tanks. Helmet to helmet contact and BLAM! You won't see guys leading with their heads after a few games. Plus it would push the NFL over the edge, into the realm of cartoon super-villainry.

Shotgun Justice: Yes because rugby players are wearing flags.

That may be an excellent point.

I don't watch enough rugby, though, so serious question: Does the play involve opponents colliding at full-speed? The scrum looks insane, and the bit of Aussie Rules I watched in a yacht club with a bunch of drunk New Zealanders was wildly entertaining (though that could have been the liquor, too), but I don't recall the game play well enough. Are there plays similar to, say, the wide receiver on crossing route being completely blown up by a line backer coming the other way, or a running back running full speed head-down into a mass of 350# linemen, or a quarterback being crushed and dropped on his head after being fully stretched out and vulnerable?

Not being snarky... if the physical mechanics are really very similar, you've strengthened my opinion re: eliminating helmets.

TheShavingofOccam123: You could hit spear an opponent and not spill your glass of wine.

Good. I hate it when I spill drinks. How about this? All football players must have surgery to implant brain stabilizers. Cushioned with Tempurpedic.

basemetal: [burningantsblog.com image 355x355]

If this man were about to hit you, which helmet would you rather be wearing?

Joliet_Jake: Leather helmets are equally effective in reducing concussions. What they aren't so great at protecting against is cracking your goddamn skull open, which is why the change was made.

Why are there less injuries in rugby and Aussie rules football than American football?

basemetal: [burningantsblog.com image 355x355]

If this man were about to hit you, which helmet would you rather be wearing?

Any version that is knife-proof.

SFSailor: Does the play involve opponents colliding at full-speed? The scrum looks insane, and the bit of Aussie Rules I watched in a yacht club with a bunch of drunk New Zealanders was wildly entertaining (though that could have been the liquor, too), but I don't recall the game play well enough. Are there plays similar to, say, the wide receiver on crossing route being completely blown up by a line backer coming the other way, or a running back running full speed head-down into a mass of 350# linemen, or a quarterback being crushed and dropped on his head after being fully stretched out and vulnerable?

The scrum.... meh. It's not bad. Separated shoulders and broken necks (if it collapses). Other than that, refs keep it rather safe. You'll get the occasional big hit. I'd regularly hit people 100+ lbs over what I weighed. You also have to ruck, the play isn't over just because you hit someone.

You also have to wrap. None of this I'll spear my padding into your knees, legs, body. Also, no blocking. So you won't have a 350# line backer up in the face of a wing just to be in the way.

greatgodyoshi: The ShavingofOccam123: You could hit spear an opponent and not spill your glass of wine.

Good. I hate it when I spill drinks. How about this? All football players must have surgery to implant brain stabilizers. Cushioned with Tempurpedic.

Eh probably the only design that would work would be a one time use "crumple" zone helmet, like a modern bike helmet. You'd have to have some shock sensors on them so that, if it the helmet did take a potentially crumpling blow, you'd know to replace it.

jake_lex: if you got tackled in rugby gear the way guys get tackled in an American football game, you wouldn't get up.

darkscout: You also have to wrap. None of this I'll spear my padding into your knees, legs, body

Drat. Sounds like it's not an applicable comparison, after all.

(Not, of course, taking anything away from rugby... just doesn't have the same injury dynamics.)

darkscout: You'll get the occasional big hit. I'd regularly hit people 100+ lbs over what I weighed.

But were you both running full speed at each other (again, honestly curious)? Even if so, it sounds like the tackles don't have the same unstoppable-force/immovable-object scenario.

darkscout: You also have to ruck, the play isn't over just because you hit someone.

Which is awesome.

And a lot of shiat happens away from the ball (or maybe that's Aussie Rules? I don't know enough of the details.). I vividly remember watching the replays of one guy punching an opponent in the face... then grabbing his jersey, pulling him back and punching him again ... all with a ref trotting by, no foul play on. Fascinating. Unfortunately, I tried watching it again hoping to get into it, but without helpful drunken New Zealanders explaining it to me, I just couldn't follow it. I iz not the smartestest.

Then again, I participate in a sport that kills people pretty much every year, so, these ball sports are ladies league by comparison. ; )

jake_lex: Because the types of tackles that are allowed in American football are not allowed in either of those sports. Someone around here dismissively called American football "armoured wankball", but if you got tackled in rugby gear the way guys get tackled in an American football game, you wouldn't get up.

Any type of play that NFL receivers/backs boycott whenever their contract is in flux is the type you don't see in rugby, because they're the realm of the crazy person with huge $$$s clouding their mind.

SchlingFocker: These guys are out for a month with turf toe.

The condition of your toes makes a lot more impact to a guy that runs a 4.2 40 and can cut like a Jack Russel Terrier than one would imagine as a regular person. The phrase "finely tuned athletic machines" is more than just a cute quote, but a harsh reality for Div-I and NFL athletes. If they're half a step off or can't turn like normal, at best they just can't get open and at worst they get freaking crushed by the fast-moving landmasses at play now.

Modern athletes are faster, larger, stronger and better trained but they don't have super bones or ligaments.

If you want to reduce injuries, put the padding on the OUTSIDE. The current football helmet is a piece of war armor, not safety equipment.

cefm: If you want to reduce injuries, put the padding on the OUTSIDE. The current football helmet is a piece of war armor, not safety equipment.

It's been done...

jake_lex: Because the types of tackles that are allowed in American football are not allowed in either of those sports. Someone around here dismissively called American football "armoured wankball", but if you got tackled in rugby gear the way guys get tackled in an American football game, you wouldn't get up.

A lot of them don't get up anyway. A frightening number of careers you never hear about are less than five years.

The problem is that starting from college, coaches recruit players who love hitting. Fan love seeing hits. Football would be much safer with rugby-like tackling rules, but the entire system down to its core is built differently. Aside from the safety issue, I don't like the hits because they're sloppy. Hits make sense near the edges where momentum can force a foot down out of bounds. You're not really hitting so much as pushing. But I've also seen players try to prevent a first down, force a fumble or intimidate a guy with a hit. . . and give up six points because he didn't wrap up the ball carrier. And this is in the NFL.

This could just be me, but I think it really took off with Tampa-2 schemes where a lot of tackling is done with DBs and undersized linebackers. They wrap up a tailback and they'll just get dragged until the 2nd or 3rd tackler comes up. Offenses could just grind them down. So right from the get-go, teams implementing Tampa-2 recruited guys who are hard-wired to hit at full speed. If you're outweighed by 50 pounds or more, hitting a guy at full speed vs. wrapping him up makes a difference of 2-3 yards. It's that difference that makes Tampa-2 work; the scheme is primarily designed to prevent big plays so this is the difference between a good defense and a bad one. A good Tampa-2 hits fast enough to break up passes and limit runs to 2-3 yards. A bad one gives up short passes and 5-6 yard runs all day. But from a safety perspective, being "good" puts everyone through insane amounts of physical punishment.

I understand that the Lingerie football league has been working on some new designs that might help out:
Link

snowshovel: Ow My Balls: Leather helmets were worn before steroids turned football players into specimens of science fiction. Go ahead and find a classic game from before 35 years ago. You'll be astonished by how skinny everybody is.

I happened to see a picture of the Super Bowl Shuffle record cover recently. I was completely amazed at how normal everyone's body size/shape was without the pads. It was hard to think that that collection of suburban dads were members of the most feared football team of that time, compared to the behemoths running now.

'85 was well into the steroid era. The Steelers lines of the time were referred to as "The Steroid Curtain". Training methods may have left something to be desired. Maybe the dope is better. It used to be that anyone over 300 lbs. was no longer fast enough to play the game. In '85, the average lineman was probably 275#. Now there are linebackers that big. It definitely started changing in the early '90s. I remember watching Larry Allen, at around 325 lbs., chasing a DB down the sidelines after an interception. He came within an eyelash of catching the SOB. In '85, nobody his size could have managed that. When the Fridge was that big, he was starting to get too fat to play well.

Shotgun Justice: /I have to say I do like the boxing helmet idea, modified with a face protector (shield or mask).



Don't forget to protect our mouth as well.

jake_lex: Because the types of tackles that are allowed in American football are not allowed in either of those sports. Someone around here dismissively called American football "armoured wankball", but if you got tackled in rugby gear the way guys get tackled in an American football game, you wouldn't get up.

Kind of my point, the additional padding and helmets are the reason for so many injuries in football. If they weren't wearing all of the protection, the hits wouldn't be nearly as violent.

forgotmydamnusername: I remember watching Larry Allen, at around 325 lbs., chasing a DB down the sidelines after an interception. He came within an eyelash of catching the SOB. In '85, nobody his size could have managed that. When the Fridge was that big, he was starting to get too fat to play well.

Yep, the idea that NFL players didn't start to get big until 10 years ago has been an ongoing myth that drifts through the years. Sizes haven't changed all that much over the past 30 years, at least. Ten years from now people will be talking about how puny those players from 2011 were, and they'll be just as wrong. Take a line from the early 90's against one today and they won't lose on power.

What HAS changed is that the bigger guys are faster, and the faster guys are bigger. Twenty years ago you didn't expect a CB to bring down a tight end without help. Now, no one scares anyone else. There's so much more positional parity, and frankly it's both boring and unsettling. Back in the day, a guy like Water Payton one-on-one vs. a free safety was a horrific mismatch. You HAD to get bodies on him. Nowadays any single player in an NFL backfield would be expected to stop a 200-pound tailback cold. Barry Sanders could run circles around the Fridge, but I look at some DEs these days and think they could catch him.

the study was about repetitive light trauma not the big BOOMs that the NFL uses in its advertizing and fines the players for.

dragonchild: jake_lex: Because the types of tackles that are allowed in American football are not allowed in either of those sports. Someone around here dismissively called American football "armoured wankball", but if you got tackled in rugby gear the way guys get tackled in an American football game, you wouldn't get up.

A lot of them don't get up anyway. A frightening number of careers you never hear about are less than five years.

The problem is that starting from college, coaches recruit players who love hitting. Fan love seeing hits. Football would be much safer with rugby-like tackling rules, but the entire system down to its core is built differently. Aside from the safety issue, I don't like the hits because they're sloppy. Hits make sense near the edges where momentum can force a foot down out of bounds. You're not really hitting so much as pushing. But I've also seen players try to prevent a first down, force a fumble or intimidate a guy with a hit. . . and give up six points because he didn't wrap up the ball carrier. And this is in the NFL.

This could just be me, but I think it really took off with Tampa-2 schemes where a lot of tackling is done with DBs and undersized linebackers. They wrap up a tailback and they'll just get dragged until the 2nd or 3rd tackler comes up. Offenses could just grind them down. So right from the get-go, teams implementing Tampa-2 recruited guys who are hard-wired to hit at full speed. If you're outweighed by 50 pounds or more, hitting a guy at full speed vs. wrapping him up makes a difference of 2-3 yards. It's that difference that makes Tampa-2 work; the scheme is primarily designed to prevent big plays so this is the difference between a good defense and a bad one. A good Tampa-2 hits fast enough to break up passes and limit runs to 2-3 yards. A bad one gives up short passes and 5-6 yard runs all day. But from a safety perspective, being "good" puts everyone through insane amounts of physical punishment.

I actually blame Ronnie Lott, with perhaps some measure of blame also going to the Raiders safeties of the 70's, Tatum and Atkinson, who had a similar, if maybe a bit dirtier, similarly successful approach. They were doing exactly what you describe before Tampa-2 was invented. Lott was considered the best safety of his era. He was very effective with a style in which you absolutely obliterated the guy with the ball. He didn't wrap all the time, because when he hit you, you were just going to fall down, or he was going to render himself unconscious, which happened more than once. Didn't do the "lead with the helmet" bit too often, because as hard as he was launching himself, he probably would have ended up a quad. Kids saw that and sought to emulate it. People coming into the league today didn't see any of those guys play, but the pattern of expectation was definitely set.

SFSailor: But were you both running full speed at each other (again, honestly curious)? Even if so, it sounds like the tackles don't have the same unstoppable-force/immovable-object scenario.

At each other? Backline certainly is. I have seen people not paying attention, watching/trying to make a pass and just get nailed. It's happened to me. But like I said worst thing is your head hitting the ground if it does. Because it's closer to a double leg take down at speed than a tackle.

For example this got someone suspended for 1 game from the world cup
Link (new window)

Here is a highlight reel from the world cup:
Link (new window)
There's a big flip at 0:18. I didn't watch the game so I don't know if they just carried on.
0:42 has a big hit after a catch, all legal from what I saw, you can't hit them in the air but the second your feet touch the ground you're fair game.
There's a pretty big hit at 1:05.
A very illegal dump at 1:45.

There is a HUGE hit in this: Link (new window). Segued into a fight (Argentinean aren't known for being calm) but from what I saw completely legal (he wrapped).

And for the most part the game just caries on.

Switch to these?