The average amount of debt would be even higher if the report included profit-making schools, where almost all students take out loans and, according to federal data, borrow about 45 percent more than students at nonprofits.

Apparently they don't require economics courses at some of these degree mills.

It's so weird.. college prices went through the roof right arond the time the gov't decided to make college more affordable.

jst3p: The average amount of debt would be even higher if the report included profit-making schools, where almost all students take out loans and, according to federal data, borrow about 45 percent more than students at nonprofits.

Apparently they don't require economics courses at some of these degree mills.

Heh! Sometimes they don't even require practical work to get a nursing degree. A few years ago I saw an article about a trio of ladies who racked up like 40K each in loans to get an absolutely worthless nursing "certificate" from some for profit school.

Slaves2Darkness: jst3p: The average amount of debt would be even higher if the report included profit-making schools, where almost all students take out loans and, according to federal data, borrow about 45 percent more than students at nonprofits.

Apparently they don't require economics courses at some of these degree mills.

Heh! Sometimes they don't even require practical work to get a nursing degree. A few years ago I saw an article about a trio of ladies who racked up like 40K each in loans to get an absolutely worthless nursing "certificate" from some for profit school.

I have some knowledge of the industry. Some are pretty good, but most seem to be a scam.

MugzyBrown: It's so weird.. college prices went through the roof right arond the time the gov't decided to make college more affordable.

Clinton broke the system when he declared every kid should go.

Christ, I don't even know what to say anymore in these threads. :(

MugzyBrown: It's so weird.. college prices went through the roof right arond the time the gov't decided to make college more affordable.
======================================================

The other alternative is tell everyone who isn't in the top 10% that they should be stuck to a life of minimum wage jobs with no chance of every moving up the socio-economic ladder.

Which is just moronic beyond words.

College dept is up 20% since 2000 at the same time that real wages at jobs that require college degrees have declined about 15%.

Want to know the next bubble that's going to pop? Want to know more?


There's a serious, serious problem of Boomer's in HR requiring college degrees for jobs that historically needed a HS diploma and a interview suit. 10 fold so in many areas of finance (back office, analytic's, records, ect. )

MugzyBrown: It's so weird.. college prices went through the roof right arond the time the gov't decided to make college more affordable. universities and private lenders realized they could get 100% federally backed money for free.

FTFY

MugzyBrown: It's so weird.. college prices went through the roof right arond the time the gov't decided to make college more affordable.

Much like housing. It's allmost as if the government is trying to suck all the money out of the country and enslave the population to the banks.

MugzyBrown: It's so weird.. college prices went through the roof right arond the time the gov't decided to make college more affordable.

College is, historically, less affordable. What crack pipe did you steal from your mom?

The difference is private enterprise is requiring college degrees for even the most menial of tasks. They are refusing to do ANY training. And their new MO is requiring 3-4 YEARS of job experience on top of a college degree for an entry level position.

It's absolutely absurd.

HR departments are finding ways to justify their existence and budget, at the determent of their companies.

TyrantII: There's a serious, serious problem of Boomer's in HR requiring college degrees for jobs that historically needed a HS diploma and a interview suit.

My second job is filling internet orders for a small business that sells schoolbooks and physical fitness stuff. Check the computer, go to the stock room, fill the order, print a shipping label, done.
The boss insists on hiring only college graduates.

Is it "The System" screwing us over or is it "people" screwing us over? If we're the system, that mean we're screwing ourselves over.

Hey, wait a minute...

/It's great how Americans just love to fark each other over without liability.
//Then scream and blame someone else when the scams fall apart.

What to do?

Here's a hint: Just. Stop. Paying.
(It's the wave of the future, you know.)

TyrantII: College is, historically, less affordable. What crack pipe did you steal from your mom?

The difference is private enterprise is requiring college degrees for even the most menial of tasks. They are refusing to do ANY training. And their new MO is requiring 3-4 YEARS of job experience on top of a college degree for an entry level position.

It's absolutely absurd.

HR departments are finding ways to justify their existence and budget, at the determent of their companies.

That's my point. The gov't decided 20-30 years ago that people couldn't afford college, so they gave anybody low interest, federally backed loans. Then they kept preaching that everbody needs to go to college.

So here come a ton of new consumers with a seemingly unending stream of funding. I wonder what happens...oh yeah colleges jack up the prices.

Now you have all of these "educated" people entering the workforce, so they only way to differentiate yourself is to go get your masters. Colleges say: cha-ching!

jake3988: The other alternative is tell everyone who isn't in the top 10% that they should be stuck to a life of minimum wage jobs with no chance of every moving up the socio-economic ladder.

Which is just moronic beyond words.

Considering mobility in the US society has been worsening since the plan was put into place, I don't think it's working.

MugzyBrown: Considering mobility in the US society has been worsening since the plan was put into place, I don't think it's working.

Ironically enough, this behavior is what will kill capitalism in America. No mobility means no status quo. That's what is really behind the Occupy Movement: if you have intelligent young people in a situation where they cannot support themselves or take part in the economy, then you have a serious problem maintaining this economy as it stands for any particular amount of time. Especially if the economy is built on unrestricted spending.

The United States--mostly thanks to the Republican Party and the corporations--have destroyed the next few generations of Americans. No wonder they're cutting and running and trying to get as much cash as they can. They know it can't last forever and are cutting their losses and running.

Guntram Shatterhand: mostly thanks to the Republican Party and the corporations

That's where your trolly went off the track.

You think it's a political party issue.

HotIgneous Intruder: What to do?

Here's a hint: Just. Stop. Paying.
(It's the wave of the future, you know.)

Good luck with that. They can garnish wages and assets without going to court, and typically add 30-40% in 'penalties' when you don't pay them. They are basically tied with the IRS in their ability to come after you.

At least put the payments on deferral if you can't pay them.

Good luck with that. They can garnish wages and assets without going to court, and typically add 30-40% in 'penalties' when you don't pay them. They are basically tied with the IRS in their ability to come after you.

At least put the payments on deferral if you can't pay them.

Unless you can string them out for 20 years, apparently.

HotIgneous Intruder: What to do?

Here's a hint: Just. Stop. Paying.
(It's the wave of the future, you know.)

Nah, deferments are the way to go. My parents have friends who are in their 15th plus year of deferments.

I do not approve of this practice, btw.
//Just wanted to share some info.

MugzyBrown: TyrantII: College is, historically, less affordable. What crack pipe did you steal from your mom?

The difference is private enterprise is requiring college degrees for even the most menial of tasks. They are refusing to do ANY training. And their new MO is requiring 3-4 YEARS of job experience on top of a college degree for an entry level position.

It's absolutely absurd.

HR departments are finding ways to justify their existence and budget, at the determent of their companies.

That's my point. The gov't decided 20-30 years ago that people couldn't afford college, so they gave anybody low interest, federally backed loans. Then they kept preaching that everbody needs to go to college.

So here come a ton of new consumers with a seemingly unending stream of funding. I wonder what happens...oh yeah colleges jack up the prices.

Now you have all of these "educated" people entering the workforce, so they only way to differentiate yourself is to go get your masters. Colleges say: cha-ching!

jake3988: The other alternative is tell everyone who isn't in the top 10% that they should be stuck to a life of minimum wage jobs with no chance of every moving up the socio-economic ladder.

Which is just moronic beyond words.

Considering mobility in the US society has been worsening since the plan was put into place, I don't think it's working.

When everybody is super, nobody is.

TheGreatGazoo: HotIgneous Intruder: What to do?

Here's a hint: Just. Stop. Paying.
(It's the wave of the future, you know.)

Good luck with that. They can garnish wages and assets without going to court, and typically add 30-40% in 'penalties' when you don't pay them. They are basically tied with the IRS in their ability to come after you.

At least put the payments on deferral if you can't pay them.

Sadly, this is true. Can't get rid of them in bankruptcy either.

Stop trying to push everyone with a pulse into going to college. College isn't for everyone, and many kids would be more successful going to a vocational school. However, MTV and everything else tells our little snowflakes they are all geniuses and should explore their potential. All they end up with is a crappy degree and a ton of debt.

MugzyBrown:
That's my point. The gov't decided 20-30 years ago that people couldn't afford college, so they gave anybody low interest, federally backed loans. Then they kept preaching that everbody needs to go to college.

So here come a ton of new consumers with a seemingly unending stream of funding. I wonder what happens...oh yeah colleges jack up the prices.

Now you have all of these "educated" people entering the workforce, so they only way to differentiate yourself is to go get your masters. Colleges say: cha-ching!


Which is just moronic beyond words.

Considering mobility in the US society has been worsening since the plan was put into place, I don't think it's working.

Federal and State funding for college has dried up to a trickle of what it was. Yes, private funding has been pushed, but it's not that cause of increasing borrowing rates. It's because of people pushing the EVIL Guvmint and Evil taxes BS.

Romney, for example, almost destroyed the UMass and state college system that adds over 5 billion a year to the MA economy (through highly educated workers, research, private/public ventures, ect), all to give people back what amounted to $50-100 a year in tax breaks. Throwing away better paying jobs, higher demand, a smarter workforce for..... a tank or two of gas a year.

It's cutting off your arm to bandage up a scrape on your elbow. It's taken years to get the system back on track, meanwhile they've dumped the extra costs on the people going to college. No one understands "investment" anymore. We really are a speculative, consumerist society now. Capitalism is dead.

xtragrind: Stop trying to push everyone with a pulse into going to college. College isn't for everyone, and many kids would be more successful going to a vocational school. However, MTV and everything else tells our little snowflakes they are all geniuses and should explore their potential. All they end up with is a crappy degree and a ton of debt.

Not to mention they drag down the curves, inflating grades. I dropped out mid-engineering-degree, returned 7 years later and found the courses much easier than before, despite having forgotten most of my math past semester 1 calculus. I'm pretty sure I didn't get any smarter during that 7 years.

kwame: TyrantII: at the determent of their companies.

I wonder why they're so picky about people having degrees.

It's fark, so frak off. I'll spell check / use proper grammar on my posts on a free site I refuse to pay from when hell freezes over. Otherwise you can pay me, and I'll do proper editorial checking from now on.

This is the internet, not a quarterly analytical report. Why bother?

MugzyBrown: That's where your trolly went off the track.
You think it's a political party issue.

This.

TyrantII: No one understands "investment" anymore. We really are a speculative, consumerist society now. Capitalism is dead.

and That.

Wait, here's something that bothers me.

At 18, you're not considered responsible enough to drink.

However, you are considered responsible enough to enter binding (and *life altering*) contracts, including taking on a super-special kind of debt that can't even be discharged via *bankruptcy*, which practically no one else is asked or required to take (including companies that the government loans money to).

Felgraf: Wait, here's something that bothers me.

At 18, you're not considered responsible enough to drink.

However, you are considered responsible enough to enter binding (and *life altering*) contracts, including taking on a super-special kind of debt that can't even be discharged via *bankruptcy*, which practically no one else is asked or required to take (including companies that the government loans money to).

But you can smoke cigarettes and kill people at 18, so there's that.

Felgraf: However, you are considered responsible enough to enter binding (and *life altering*) contracts, including taking on a super-special kind of debt that can't even be discharged via *bankruptcy*, which practically no one else is asked or required to take (including companies that the government loans money to).

I'd be in favor of eliminating the student loan industry (which allows folks who are otherwise unable to attend school and pursue a better career). We can go back to the glory days where we pushed kids into trades (diluting that labor pool) and those not rich enough could save for a lifetime before heading off to higher education.

AcneVulgaris: Not to mention they drag down the curves, inflating grades. I dropped out mid-engineering-degree, returned 7 years later and found the courses much easier than before, despite having forgotten most of my math past semester 1 calculus. I'm pretty sure I didn't get any smarter during that 7 years.

I'm pretty sure you did. Not to disagree with you, but your reasoning skills, common sense, and awareness probably were enhanced greatly in those years. Life does that to you.

I did the same thing. Went for one thing, struggled greatly. Took some years off, went back and pulled all A's. Grew up in that time.

There's smart and there's smart...

The tire stores where I live demand a BS degree to work installing tires. For $9 something an hour.

College grads can get jobs, sure. Pay off their student loans, unlikely.

raerae1980: TheGreatGazoo: HotIgneous Intruder: What to do?

Here's a hint: Just. Stop. Paying.
(It's the wave of the future, you know.)

Good luck with that. They can garnish wages and assets without going to court, and typically add 30-40% in 'penalties' when you don't pay them. They are basically tied with the IRS in their ability to come after you.

At least put the payments on deferral if you can't pay them.

Sadly, this is true. Can't get rid of them in bankruptcy either.

I understand that. But the truth is that many people will be going for years, if not decades, on hardship deferrals and the effect will be the same as not paying in the end.

/Deferral is the same as not paying, they just don't come after you.

Has nobody ever heard of community/junior college? I save a pile of money by doing 2 years at a community college before transferring to a university. And on the day I graduated I received the same BA Degree as those who had spent the entire 4 years there.

This is the result of the social progress method for secondary education. All you really have to do is show up and have a pulse to graduate HS (or just say fark it and get a GED). So now employers are demanding Bachelor's degrees for entry level jobs. I won't hire anyone without a degree simply because I need to see commitment to a goal over an extended period of time. High school is involuntary (or you just drop out). College is a choice.

bigmattress: AcneVulgaris: Not to mention they drag down the curves, inflating grades. I dropped out mid-engineering-degree, returned 7 years later and found the courses much easier than before, despite having forgotten most of my math past semester 1 calculus. I'm pretty sure I didn't get any smarter during that 7 years.

I'm pretty sure you did. Not to disagree with you, but your reasoning skills, common sense, and awareness probably were enhanced greatly in those years. Life does that to you.

I did the same thing. Went for one thing, struggled greatly. Took some years off, went back and pulled all A's. Grew up in that time.

There's smart and there's smart...

I was 29 when I left, 36 when I went back. I think I was pretty much as grown up as I was gonna get before I left.

The countries that are outdoing the US have sense enough to realize that PEOPLE ARE INFRASTRUCTURE. They invest in their people. In the US we tried social darwinism under the guise of "free market".

Our view of education, as a nation, is outdated and unhealthy for individuals and our nation.

stolibro: This is the result of the social progress method for secondary education. All you really have to do is show up and have a pulse to graduate HS (or just say fark it and get a GED). So now employers are demanding Bachelor's degrees for entry level jobs. I won't hire anyone without a degree simply because I need to see commitment to a goal over an extended period of time. High school is involuntary (or you just drop out). College is a choice.

That unadulterated bullshiat.

Most highs school kids are taking pre-calc their junior year. Most places it's required by senior year. Then there's AP classes offered for college credit.

My parents were lucky to be forced to know trig by senior year. Most only had to know algebra.

The kids coming out of high school are asked to know a lot more than they were back in the day. Math, Chem, Languages, and other sciences are putting much much more into their curriculum than they were even 20 years ago. Much of it "college level stuff" if we're going by how it was consitered historical.

If you were arguing social abilities and common sense I might agree with you, but that's more a parenting problem than a education problem born from their parents 80's culture. Hopefully social media and the internet snaps this generation out of that. It's appearing as it is, IMO.

The people getting GED's are not the ones going to college, or borrowing money for college.

apeiron242: The countries that are outdoing the US have sense enough to realize that PEOPLE ARE INFRASTRUCTURE. They invest in their people. In the US we tried social darwinism under the guise of "free market".

Our view of education, as a nation, is outdated and unhealthy for individuals and our nation.

I read a editorial on education that realy made a lot of sense when you stopped to think about it. Historically the citizens of the US have always provided free, taxpayer paid universal education up to the level needed for the economic and cultural institutions of that time. But that stopped in the market globalization and technological revolution.

Primary education was introduced when large scale national agriculture, and milling industries took off as people needed to learn the new technologies, understand the larger workings of markets and finance. Public high schools took off when Industry really started to flourish and better educated workers were needed for the large scale problems of enterprise. They needed people who knew math, science and engineering and construction. At the same time huge investments in agricultural colleges were made, because they were the resources fueling Industrialism.

Now were in a post industrial society, based on high end technology, data management, and capital; and our leaders are saying "frak all of you you're on your own"

We're on a good path to running our economic future into the ground, because we will not or can not make the necessary investments in our future. There should be some free, minimal sort of primary college education offered to everyone that wants it. Hoping that our street credit as Americans doesn't falter is going to be a quickly faltering position.

TyrantII: apeiron242: The countries that are outdoing the US have sense enough to realize that PEOPLE ARE INFRASTRUCTURE. They invest in their people. In the US we tried social darwinism under the guise of "free market".

Our view of education, as a nation, is outdated and unhealthy for individuals and our nation.

I read a editorial on education that realy made a lot of sense when you stopped to think about it. Historically the citizens of the US have always provided free, taxpayer paid universal education up to the level needed for the economic and cultural institutions of that time. But that stopped in the market globalization and technological revolution.

Primary education was introduced when large scale national agriculture, and milling industries took off as people needed to learn the new technologies, understand the larger workings of markets and finance. Public high schools took off when Industry really started to flourish and better educated workers were needed for the large scale problems of enterprise. They needed people who knew math, science and engineering and construction. At the same time huge investments in agricultural colleges were made, because they were the resources fueling Industrialism.

Now were in a post industrial society, based on high end technology, data management, and capital; and our leaders are saying "frak all of you you're on your own"

We're on a good path to running our economic future into the ground, because we will not or can not make the necessary investments in our future. There should be some free, minimal sort of primary college education offered to everyone that wants it. Hoping that our street credit as Americans doesn't falter is going to be a quickly faltering position.

What are you a Commie! That is Socialism and I won't have it in my country!

Guntram Shatterhand: That's what is really behind the Occupy Movement: if you have intelligent young people in a situation where they cannot support themselves or take part in the economy, then you have a serious problem maintaining this economy as it stands...

If you can't support yourself or figure out how to take part in the economy, you are not that intelligent or deluded about your market value, no matter what your degree/parents/friends/MENSA test results or self may say.

Iluvbeer: Guntram Shatterhand: That's what is really behind the Occupy Movement: if you have intelligent young people in a situation where they cannot support themselves or take part in the economy, then you have a serious problem maintaining this economy as it stands...

If you can't support yourself or figure out how to take part in the economy, you are not that intelligent or deluded about your market value, no matter what your degree/parents/friends/MENSA test results or self may say.

There's more people looking for work than there is working, you hypothesis doesn't really pan out. Even if we went to full employment for every menial, underpaying, crap job there was there's still be people out there with the ability and the want to work, but who wouldn't because there simply are not enough jobs.

For every job opening right now there's 8 qualified people you're up against. That not included the hundreds that are not qualified strictly by the job posting, but might be even better candidates because of unquantifiable traits, history and experience that fit the job better.

The economy is actually doing pretty well. Profits are UP. The stock market is UP. Productivity is UP. The fundamentals are dragging because of a loss of government jobs every month, and the slow increase of private jobs; but they are all UP. The rich are making bank.

The problem is Jobs. The biggest problem about them isn't even college grads (~5% unemployment), it's Boomers not fiscally ready to retire. College kids are woefully underpaid and under utilized for their qualifications, but they're working. Boomer are fraked. They have no savings, they have debt, and they were fired from their good job and can't find work. The economy is deleveraging their excesses of the past 30 years.

TyrantII: There's more people looking for work than there is working,

You are wearing your pants on your head, right?

AcneVulgaris: bigmattress: AcneVulgaris: Not to mention they drag down the curves, inflating grades. I dropped out mid-engineering-degree, returned 7 years later and found the courses much easier than before, despite having forgotten most of my math past semester 1 calculus. I'm pretty sure I didn't get any smarter during that 7 years.

I'm pretty sure you did. Not to disagree with you, but your reasoning skills, common sense, and awareness probably were enhanced greatly in those years. Life does that to you.

I did the same thing. Went for one thing, struggled greatly. Took some years off, went back and pulled all A's. Grew up in that time.

There's smart and there's smart...

I was 29 when I left, 36 when I went back. I think I was pretty much as grown up as I was gonna get before I left.

Could be, but you never stop learning. You're going to know more in seven years than you do right now.

Hey I just wanted to say that I just found myself within eavesdropping range of two construction workers, age about 50, who were talking about how job requirements were rising.

They freely admitted (to each other, the college-educated 30something environmental compliance specialist at the table-that's me-was just a 240 lb paperweight) that they couldn't use a computer and couldn't spell--they couldn't have even gotten hired today.

And god help you if you're actually dreaming to be something other than a ditch digger.