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(The Michigan Messenger)   Michigan GOP: "Legalize it". And by "it", they mean bullying gay students   (michiganmessenger.com) divider line 311
    More: Sick, GOP, Michigan, Republican Left, Trojan horse, family association, homosexual agenda, charter schools, Michigan Senate  
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6710 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Nov 2011 at 3:27 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-11-03 06:18:11 PM  

KiltedBastich: Dancin_In_Anson: I'll give you a break since you are not a native American and therefore don't understand the concept of the absolute right to say whatever the hell you want regardless of how it might hurt someones feelings or sensibilities.

And I will point and laugh at you because that right has never been absolute, not even for Americans. Try shouting death threats to the President on the White House lawn and see how long you last.

Harassment laws exist for a reason. Your right to say what you like ends when it harms someone else, and no amount of Texan ideological derping on your part will ever change that.


Who makes that decision? Hurting my feelings is not the same thing as harming me. I can't imagine a world where no one ever hears something that doesn't offend them in some manner. We need that, we need to hear other people's ideas. Sometimes we need to hear things that offend or hurt us to make us understand.

I couldn't live in a world where someone couldn't make a joke at my expense, or me at theirs. You need these things to learn about yourself as you grow. Otherwise you end being an awful, whiney, petulant adult that no one wants anything to do with.
 
2011-11-03 06:22:48 PM  

skullkrusher: Fark once told me that it is possible to be an atheist and still believe in the supernatural. I thought that was dumb although technically true.


Technically yes. but practically, not really. I mean the Raelians are atheists, but they're not exactly what we associate with mainstream atheism (not saying they're not atheists! Just that they aren't your average skeptic/rationalist atheist). Atheists could technically believe in a soul (because soul/=god) but your average skeptical atheist isn't going to buy it.
 
2011-11-03 06:23:21 PM  

sprawl15: Well an atheist might in fact agree that there's a soul (or spirit or essence) but not that it's a supernatural thing.

Or can even believe in a supernatural soul that eternally reincarnates before attaining a spiritual perfection while still maintaining strict atheism.


IMO you guys are talking about skeptics, not atheists. Atheism: Not believing in gods. Full stop.

/as if this thread wasn't already in a tailspin
 
2011-11-03 06:23:32 PM  

Jackson Herring: i.imgur.com


My God, that image is awesome beyond belief.
 
2011-11-03 06:24:50 PM  

jaybeezey: Sometimes we need to hear things that offend or hurt us to make us understand.


Adults, sure. By other adults. But maybe not children from EVERYONE around them, child and adult.

Gay and lesbian children don't often get support from their parents, do not get support from their peers, and many teachers and faculty don't do anything as is. Imagine particularly bigoted teachers who just sat by and did nothing before but now can join in and say "Hey, it's my religious belief to tell this kid he's going to hell when he has absolutely no way to get away from me for the 45 minutes he's in my class 5 days a week."

That kind of inundation towards LGBT youth crosses the line from everyone's free speech to deliberate bullying and harassment.

Otherwise you end being an awful, whiney, petulant adult that no one wants anything to do with.

Christian?
 
2011-11-03 06:27:14 PM  
Can't wait for the history books' take on this one in 50 years. Nice work MI.

/I have a deep moral compulsion to try to make out with a homophobe until he cries and/or jumps in front of a bus...is that ok?
 
2011-11-03 06:30:06 PM  

jaybeezey: Actually you haven't. The courts have squarely taken the side of the Westborough Baptist A-Holes every step of the way. And if their speech is protected, as awful as it is, then it must all be protected, as much as it pains me to say. As long as you don't threaten violence, you are golden.


If I recall correctly, the WBC's antics weren't interpreted as harassment (or something that they could otherwise be held liable for) because their targets didn't constitute a captive audience - that there was nothing keeping them there, essentially. I'm not sure whether you could extend that same argument to kids in a school.
 
2011-11-03 06:30:22 PM  

jaybeezey: Hurting my feelings is not the same thing as harming me


doing it repeatedly/regularly does constitute harm, however.
 
2011-11-03 06:31:25 PM  

lennavan: Philip Francis Queeg: Have you figured out yet that the law isn't what you've been claiming it is? Or are you going to keep ignoring that fact?

Have you figured out I support the law as is and I'm arguing against subby/Democrats quoted in the article/etc?


Really ? Was it Subby or the Democrats in the article that resulted in this statement from you? I don;'t see any of them talking about arresting kids and hauling them in front of the judge, do you?


.

lennavan: I would never equate a school punishing a kid with a judge/police officer punishing a kid. I would never equate a school rule with a government law.
I'm cool with giving detention to a student for calling his teacher a fat dyke. Not so cool with calling the cops and hauling a kid who called his teacher a fat dyke in front of a judge

 
2011-11-03 06:43:32 PM  

Kome: jaybeezey: Sometimes we need to hear things that offend or hurt us to make us understand.

Adults, sure. By other adults. But maybe not children from EVERYONE around them, child and adult.

Gay and lesbian children don't often get support from their parents, do not get support from their peers, and many teachers and faculty don't do anything as is. Imagine particularly bigoted teachers who just sat by and did nothing before but now can join in and say "Hey, it's my religious belief to tell this kid he's going to hell when he has absolutely no way to get away from me for the 45 minutes he's in my class 5 days a week."

That kind of inundation towards LGBT youth crosses the line from everyone's free speech to deliberate bullying and harassment.

Otherwise you end being an awful, whiney, petulant adult that no one wants anything to do with.

Christian?


Often times, yes! Especially home schooled kids that have never been forced to interact with people until they turn 18.
 
2011-11-03 06:50:19 PM  
If you can't harass or bully gay kids then this just isn't 'Murica.
 
2011-11-03 07:00:03 PM  

jaybeezey: KiltedBastich: Dancin_In_Anson: I'll give you a break since you are not a native American and therefore don't understand the concept of the absolute right to say whatever the hell you want regardless of how it might hurt someones feelings or sensibilities.

And I will point and laugh at you because that right has never been absolute, not even for Americans. Try shouting death threats to the President on the White House lawn and see how long you last.

Harassment laws exist for a reason. Your right to say what you like ends when it harms someone else, and no amount of Texan ideological derping on your part will ever change that.

Who makes that decision? Hurting my feelings is not the same thing as harming me. I can't imagine a world where no one ever hears something that doesn't offend them in some manner. We need that, we need to hear other people's ideas. Sometimes we need to hear things that offend or hurt us to make us understand.

I couldn't live in a world where someone couldn't make a joke at my expense, or me at theirs. You need these things to learn about yourself as you grow. Otherwise you end being an awful, whiney, petulant adult that no one wants anything to do with.


So it should be legal to create a hostile work environment? You do realize that you can sue if it's your boss doing it, If it's a fellow employee then the boss can choose to fire them for doing that.

Yet you want kids to be given special treatment.

If an adult did this to a fellow adult this would be grounds to at the very least a restraining order if not criminal harassment. If a kid commits criminal harassment then they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

"being in school" is not an excuse to break the law. The criminal law still applies inside the school as much as it does outside.
 
2011-11-03 07:00:20 PM  

lennavan: And by bullying they mean making religious statements.

Seriously subby, Democrats, etc - on this one you're all farking retarded. Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to be too harsh, don't go commit suicide now. Maybe we should make it illegal for me to inform you of how retarded you are via the internet next?


There is a fundamental difference between attacking someone for their socio/political views vs. attacking them for their race/gender/sexuality/etc.... Not that either one is ok but the first is a difference of opinion while the second is saying: "I'm better than you because I was born better than you." That gives it a lot more weight.

/false equivalencies make you look like a dickcheeseburger (see that was rude and not exactly appropriate, but it's not like I called you a horse-farking cracker)
 
2011-11-03 07:04:12 PM  

Diogenes: Cool! I have a moral conviction to kick gingers.


And I have a moral obligation to toss dwarfs, and screw female midgets
 
2011-11-03 07:10:42 PM  

coeyagi: Just when I thought the GOP couldn't be more evil, they always bring me a new instance of them being more evil.

I am not sure what has no bounds:
a) evilness of GOP
b) wealth gap of 1% and 99%
c) both


The answer is actually a. If b was without any bounds, it would mean that money would have no actual value, because the gap would be defined as infinity. If that were the case, there wouldn't actually be a wealth gap.
 
2011-11-03 07:14:10 PM  

Kazan:
skullkrusher: Fark once told me that it is possible to be an atheist and still believe in the supernatural. I thought that was dumb although technically true.

i don't think i would consider that person an atheist per denotation. believing in the supernatural fits the definition of theism as far as i'm concerned


I consider myself an atheist and believe in the supernatural/paranormal, but I think of the supernatural as natural phenomena that will eventually be explained by science (string theory/M-theory/11 dimensional physics), not something that's evidence of any type of deity.

As far as this thread topic goes, the fact that the American Family Association supports the wording of the exemption tells me that people are probably right to be wary of it, but I don't think either the law or the exemption will have much affect on anything. It strikes me more as a "Look, we're helping, yay us!" gesture.
 
2011-11-03 07:18:41 PM  
Every time a Republican politician votes for something like this, it's because there's a majority of Republican voters who support it.

Remember this before you try to fool yourself into thinking that Republican voters are mostly good, well-meaning people.
 
2011-11-03 07:29:07 PM  
The full language of the insert is: "This section does not prohibit a statement of a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction of a school employee, school volunteer, pupil, or a pupil and parent or guardian."

As long as that covers "You're a farkin' douchebag!" I'm cool with it.
 
2011-11-03 08:20:13 PM  

MSFT: Antimatter:
I dunno, I ask that about district attorneys all the time.

It's probably the only reason I feel comfortable killing prostitutes, them not having a soul.....


that and you get your money back.
 
2011-11-03 08:34:15 PM  

Hershey Highway Patrol: Time to bring up that "How to bully a Christian kid" website.


I googled that. And I got a website saying that bullying is caused by watching tv. First it was really interesting, talking about how hating your brother while pretending to be righteous is just as bad as sinning, etc. And the author referred to them as "educationists", which I'm assuming means "not christfag homeschoolers."
No, I'm not kidding. See for yourself. Link (new window)

This is something I don't understand. Why do these retards think gays want to "recruit" children? Can they really be so biased as to compare any minority to themselves? They think being gay is some sort of club? Some sort of religion that they have to evangelize? And why would gays want little kids anyway? The vast majority of gays aren't pedophiles. They like men. Manly men. With bulging biceps and body hair and oozing testosterone. They don't like little boys. Boys aren't manly enough. It's always funny how homophobes have either never met or never talked to a gay person in their whole lives.
 
2011-11-03 08:49:09 PM  
If the legislation is anti-bullying, but makes specific exceptions for matters of religion, is it tacitly admitting that religion is an engine of hate? Because I've been saying this for 11 years.
 
2011-11-03 09:16:35 PM  
Sorry if I missed it, but does anyone have a link to the full text of the law?
 
2011-11-03 09:17:38 PM  
This is evil.

The Republican Party is evil. It works to multiply the amount of suffering, hatred, pollution, corruption and injustice in the world.

Please stop supporting evil.
 
2011-11-03 09:23:48 PM  
Cool, so if a teacher has a problem with black people he can say whatever he wants based on his "moral convictions" now, right?
 
2011-11-03 09:28:00 PM  
SB137

Sections 1-3 concern time lines for creating, making public, and implementing bullying policies. Section 4 (A-Q) outlines what must be included within bullying policies. Section 5 continues this with parts encouraged to be included within bullying policies. Section 6 protects those reporting bullying or false accusations. Section 7 allows other legal remedies to be pursued. Section 8 mentions the law not abridging the First Amendment and includes the note about "religious belief or moral conviction". Section 9 says the law applies to pupils only. Section 10 provides definitions. Section 11 names the law "Matt's Safe School Law".

What is relevant about Section 8 is the insert is redundant if protecting freedom of speech and free exercise as the preceding sentence of Section 8 states: "This section does not abridge the rights under the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States or under Article I of the State Constitution of 1963 of a school employee, school volunteer, pupil, or a pupil's parent or guardian." Aside from laws being unable to abridge those rights, the section explicitly protects freedom of speech and free exercise. The only reasons to insert the language is for blanket protection of bullies acting on religious or moral convictions or pointless pandering continuing this religious persecution in schools narrative.
 
2011-11-03 09:46:42 PM  

timujin: Need Help Soonish: timujin: Diogenes: Cool! I have a moral conviction to kick gingers.

Bring it.

How you doin???

My day wasn't going so well, but it's certainly looking up now


Glad I could help with that ;)
 
2011-11-03 10:07:15 PM  
Stop passing laws to outlaw random crap and start repealing laws that hamstring teachers. Allow teachers to beat your children and maybe they'll start behaving since you can't be bothered to raise your own kid.
 
2011-11-03 10:16:49 PM  
If you're a Republican, fark You.
 
2011-11-03 10:53:47 PM  

goorange: Laws are for crimes, its not a crime to be a bully


Look up the definition of assault some time. Also look up assault and battery.

winterwhile: yea... the Government can fix everything... go for it


Bully can qualify as assault, assault is a crime....
 
2011-11-03 11:01:40 PM  
The full language of the insert is: "This section does not prohibit a statement of a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction of a school employee, school volunteer, pupil, or a pupil and parent or guardian."

Does this mean Republicans will be okay with it if a school employee who is a Muslim fundamentalist preaches violence against Christians and Jews?
 
2011-11-03 11:02:11 PM  
My moral conviction says I need to bully Christians and Conservatives. Try to fight back this time, you sniveling pussies.
 
2011-11-03 11:05:13 PM  

Fizpez: Looking at this legislation in the absolute BEST possible light it basically says that if I say "I think you being gay means you're going to hell for you're morally reprehensible behavior based on my religious beliefs" then I am not, in fact, bullying that person.

What is means in every other light is it gives legal cover for people to act like douchebags....


So? Acting like a douchebag has never been against the law and I see no reason to make it so now.
 
2011-11-03 11:07:47 PM  

Ghastly: I wonder if they realize they've just made it okay for Muslims to bully Christian kids on the grounds of religious belief.


Well, they are true believers. Christians don't blow themselves up for their God. This must mean that Muslims have stronger moral convictions, so I guess they can do what they want.
 
2011-11-03 11:30:13 PM  

Putter: That's just me though.


And a sympathetic modmin, perhaps? ;-)

To Michigan, the land of my ancestors: WTF?!
 
2011-11-03 11:47:01 PM  

monkeyman3875: Stop passing laws to outlaw random crap


They are not outlawing anything with this. Schools are required to create procedures regarding bullying. Schools already have rules against bullying, but those are enforced inconsistently, and, as bullying is a pattern of behavior, those require documentation to construct a pattern. This helps to enforce those rules consistently and document.

ignacio: Acting like a douchebag has never been against the law and I see no reason to make it so now.


Who is making this against the law now? I suppose being an administrator who allows bullying is acting like a douchebag, but I doubt this is what you're referring to.
 
2011-11-03 11:48:11 PM  

cryinoutloud: Ghastly: I wonder if they realize they've just made it okay for Muslims to bully Christian kids on the grounds of religious belief.

Well, they are true believers. Christians don't blow themselves up for their God. This must mean that Muslims have stronger moral convictions, so I guess they can do what they want.


Christians also cry at funerals. "Oh boo hoo hoo, Aunt Patty is going to paradise, that makes me so sad...!" ?

It's really hard to take their "beliefs" seriously.
 
2011-11-04 12:35:39 AM  
I am morally outraged at christians. Can I kick the crap of some?
 
2011-11-04 01:27:33 AM  

KiltedBastich: Hey, dum-dum, let me explain the difference to you between being offended by a casual statement, which you are not protected against, and a systematic pattern of harassment, which you are protected against.

See, one statement? That's offensive, but it is covered by free speech, so the most you can really do is be offensive in return.

Now, when it is multiple similar statements, repeated over time, often by multiple people, saying the same thing, with an intent to ostracize, demean and humiliate? That is harassment, and it can cause profound psychological harm up to and including major depression, self-mutilation and even suicide. You do not get to use the first amendment to legitimate that kind of bullshiat.

Free speech isn't an absolute, no matter how much you want it to be. You're never going to change that, and your ideologically driven attempts to pretend it is just make me want to point and laugh at you some more.



So by your analysis, wouldnt any group protesting against any class of people (gays, bankers, politicians, Big Pharma, etc) be guilty of harassment? The protest is to single out and draw attention to "bad" behavior of the protested. This seems like a form of humiliation and ostracism with rhetoric that is often demeaning explicitly and/or implicitly. On top of this the goal of the protest is to change the "bad" behavior. This seems like a form of bullying.
 
2011-11-04 01:33:44 AM  

SquiggelyGrounders: So by your analysis, wouldnt any group protesting against any class of people (gays, bankers, politicians, Big Pharma, etc) be guilty of harassment? The protest is to single out and draw attention to "bad" behavior of the protested. This seems like a form of humiliation and ostracism with rhetoric that is often demeaning explicitly and/or implicitly. On top of this the goal of the protest is to change the "bad" behavior. This seems like a form of bullying.


Did you miss the part where I mentioned, several times in this thread now, how it had to be directed at an individual, as opposed to the general public or society at large? It's a rather fundamental difference.
 
2011-11-04 02:45:36 AM  
Wow. And this is in Michigan, too. Mississippi I would have expected, but Michigan?

Republicans really are an evil race.
 
2011-11-04 04:34:45 AM  
lennavan: Why the hell do we need to insert laws and cops and courts into schools. The school should deal with it.
Hm...

Well given amount of hardwork gay kids are putting into being suicide world champions, I'd say the schools aren't dealing with it and that's what prompted the legislation.

That's just me though.
 
2011-11-04 05:05:55 AM  

Putter: lennavan: Why the hell do we need to insert laws and cops and courts into schools. The school should deal with it.
Hm...

Well given amount of hardwork gay kids are putting into being suicide world champions, I'd say the schools aren't dealing with it and that's what prompted the legislation.

That's just me though.


What about all the laws and rules in place that prevents schools from doing any kind of discipline?

There used to be a time less than 70 years ago when teachers could literally beat the kids. Bullying is one thing, but a time tested cure is to teach bullies there's always a bigger stick out there. Or just removing bullies completely with expulsion.

But there's also the side when no one can fight all your battles for you. Eventually you have to learn to stick up for yourself, bullying or not. Part of that is choosing your fights and learning not to make yourself a target. No matter who is "responsible" on paper, it's still the fact that rules and ideals can't save you from animals, and bullies are animals. Just chimps in T-shirts.

So part of the problem could be legislation, but mostly it's a generation of parents brainwashed by childless people's idealism who don't remember what it was like to be a kid in the bad old days of high school. For those of us who remember, we know how bad it can get. We also know MORE laws and rules are not the answer.
 
2011-11-04 07:43:16 AM  

GWLush: Aren't we supposed to be progressing as a species?


Not in Michigan. That state has been in decline for decades.
 
2011-11-04 08:26:49 AM  
I don't want to live in this state anymore.

The Republicans here have just gone batshiat crazy. Abortions bills, pro-bullying legislation, tax cuts for the rich at the expense of education funding...I used to think the worst part about Michigan were the roads. Well, they are the worst part...that's because Republicans won't fix them.

\I hate my state...
\\Time to move to PDX where I belong, methinks...
 
2011-11-04 08:46:45 AM  
"This section does not prohibit a statement of a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction of a school employee, school volunteer, pupil, or a pupil and parent or guardian."

if a school employee or volunteer feels they are required to say something by their religion that is offensive then their religion makes them unsuitable for the job and they should quit.

Parents really shouldn't be making any statements at school.

Pupil, hmm, I don't know.
 
2011-11-04 09:06:26 AM  

WhyteRaven74: goorange: Laws are for crimes, its not a crime to be a bully

Look up the definition of assault some time. Also look up assault and battery.

winterwhile: yea... the Government can fix everything... go for it

Bully can qualify as assault, assault is a crime....


its a crime to talk to someone?
 
2011-11-04 09:16:07 AM  
t0.gstatic.com
 
2011-11-04 09:43:18 AM  

vernonFL: I don't see why we need anti-bullying legislation.

If this is happening in school, its a matter for the school admins and parents.

If its happening off school grounds, its a matter for parents, and police, in the case of threats, harassment or violence, police and courts already have the tools to address this.


Interesting. Are you suggesting that laws don't exist in schools and all issues should be handled internally? I've often held the belief that "bullying" is another name for "harassment", and that if I'm harassing a co-worker, I lose my job, and possibly face fines or some kind of settlement. Continual, repeated harassment over the course of several years would likely net me jail time, or at least a restraining order. All these legal avenues exist to prevent a situation from escalating from harassment, which is wrong, to assault or murder or suicide, which is farking wrong. These laws mitigate the risk that these situations come to an even more destructive conclusion.

I've never quite understood, in my adult life, why we treat harassment differently when it's children. I'm not saying we throw kids in jail over it, I'm saying "why don't we allow kids to get restraining orders on other kids?" or even more generally, "adults can be shiatty too, but we don't tolerate it. Why do we tolerate it amongst children?"

/Full disclosure: The schools I went to didn't really have a bullying problem.
 
2011-11-04 10:13:42 AM  

winterwhile: WhyteRaven74: goorange: Laws are for crimes, its not a crime to be a bully

Look up the definition of assault some time. Also look up assault and battery.

winterwhile: yea... the Government can fix everything... go for it

Bully can qualify as assault, assault is a crime....

its a crime to talk to someone?


Harassment / bullying =/= "talking to someone"

It should be a crime to be as stupid as you are, but we'd have to lock up far too many right wing shills, the prisons would explode.
 
2011-11-04 10:24:00 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: My moral conviction says I need to bully Christians and Conservatives.


So I should start worrying that a bunch of unarmed, effeminate men are going to try to slap me to death?
 
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