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(Huffington Post)   66% opposed forgiveness of student loans. Slideshow goodness of students and the cost of majoring in holistic interpretive dance   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 359
    More: Interesting, Rasmussen poll, private colleges, student loans, Occupy Wall Street, Allegheny College, students  
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8016 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Nov 2011 at 10:41 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-11-03 10:24:20 AM
I'm excited for the "YOU MADE A DUMB CHOICE YOU SHOULD PAY FOR IT" brigade.
 
2011-11-03 10:32:55 AM
Many of them did make stupid choices and they should have to pay back their loans. It seems the vast majority of those featured were Communications Majors and that's not exactly a sector of the job market that is clamoring for more workers. With the slow death of print journalism, you'd be an idiot to think that you've got a "good chance" at landing your "dream job" of being a journalist. Then you've got the guy who admits he passed up a free ride at Michigan State so that he could pay to attend the Black College and get a true "Black" experience. I have zero sympathy for him.

So yea, choices have consequences and colleges are over pricing for a product that has lost most of it's value, yet the protesters are all clamoring in front of Wall Street and blaming the banks.
 
2011-11-03 10:35:04 AM

CanisNoir: It seems the vast majority of those featured were Communications Majors and that's not exactly a sector of the job market that is clamoring for more workers.


1) "Featured" where?
2) Citation please.

CanisNoir: So yea, choices have consequences


But not for banks, right? Banks make loans, and part of the risks of making a loan is that the person can't pay it back. That's why we have interest, as a hedge against the risk you can't pay a loan back.

But student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Why not? Why doesn't the lender also have to bear the consequences of his choice?
 
2011-11-03 10:44:05 AM

DamnYankees: But student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Why not? Why doesn't the lender also have to bear the consequences of his choice?


Because a car, house, whatever can be repossessed. A degree can't be taken away from you.
 
2011-11-03 10:44:49 AM

DamnYankees: 1) "Featured" where?


Umm, you know, the article, the one with the slide show and the persons posts explaining their life history and the choices they made? Did you not read the article?

But not for banks, right? Banks make loans, and part of the risks of making a loan is that the person can't pay it back. That's why we have interest, as a hedge against the risk you can't pay a loan back.

Interest exists as a way to make a profit off of the loan as opposed to just giving the money to someone. I could be wrong but I doubt it's a hedge against someone not paying back their loans even though the profit made from interest on paid back loans may easily cover the cost of those that defaulted. That just seems like more of a fringe benefit and not the underlying motivator for having interest on a loan.

But student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Why not? Why doesn't the lender also have to bear the consequences of his choice?

Because they are federally guaranteed? I mean, don't get me wrong, I would love it if the Fed decided to wipe my student loans off the books, but that doesn't mean I think it's fair, or the principled thing to do and I certainly don't blame the banks for giving me the money I asked for. Again, College Tuition has far exceeded the value of the degree they provide and that's not the banks fault. It's also not the banks fault that you, or I, or anyone for that matter, needed to ask them for money in order to attend.
 
2011-11-03 10:45:12 AM

evil saltine: DamnYankees: But student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Why not? Why doesn't the lender also have to bear the consequences of his choice?

Because a car, house, whatever can be repossessed. A degree can't be taken away from you.


Indentured servitude as collateral.

/Not really.
//But someone will agree with this.
 
2011-11-03 10:45:22 AM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2011-11-03 10:45:39 AM
Hey I didn't go to college because I just could not afford it nor the bills, if it had been free I would have gone. So yea I'm with the "Your choice, your bill" crowd on this one.
 
2011-11-03 10:45:45 AM
Even I'm on the fence about this, but if the banks got billions, why not give stimulate the economy a bit by forgiving the loans of hundreds of thousands of students and free up that private money among a class of people most likely to spend it? The young and poor.

I'd have an extra $300/month I could stimulate the economy with, but I'm current and having no trouble paying, which means I'd probably not qualify if they did forgiveness.
 
2011-11-03 10:46:09 AM

CanisNoir: yet the protesters are all clamoring in front of Wall Street and blaming the banks.


Choices have consequences for Wall Street and the banks too.
They are to blame for the wealth inequality.
Those private interests (colluding with the government) essentially stole money from the populace for their private benefits, and continually exploit and screw over the American people.
Any respectable first world nation would choose the government to function for the people (UHC, some further degree of universal education, better working conditions and pay) instead of functioning for the private interests and using the people as its extortion base.
 
2011-11-03 10:46:37 AM

evil saltine: Because a car, house, whatever can be repossessed.


A signature cannot be repossessed, but those loans are usually much smaller and have higher interest rates.
 
2011-11-03 10:46:50 AM

evil saltine: DamnYankees: But student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Why not? Why doesn't the lender also have to bear the consequences of his choice?

Because a car, house, whatever can be repossessed. A degree can't be taken away from you.


That's not the reason. Credit card debt can be discharged, and there's almost never something to be repossessed to account for that debt. Same goes with debts to utility companies. They can't repossess the power you used but never paid for.

It has nothing to do with assets.
 
2011-11-03 10:47:35 AM
When I'm done paying, if they decide to pay off loans for these morons I expect an $80k bonus check in the mail.
 
2011-11-03 10:48:05 AM

evil saltine: DamnYankees: But student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Why not? Why doesn't the lender also have to bear the consequences of his choice?

Because a car, house, whatever can be repossessed. A degree can't be taken away from you.


THIS.

Most kids taking out loans for college do not have much in the way of assets.

If you let people discharge student loans in bankruptcy, EVERY student would go to college on loans and declare bankruptcy after graduation, essentially guaranteeing free tuition. The 7-10 year credit score hit wouldn't do much harm and the student would benefit in the long run.
 
2011-11-03 10:48:24 AM
I'm going to school for creative nonfiction writing ... But why are my poor peers and I being punished for wanting to do what we love in the first place?

$40,000 of debt to acquire no job skills. Great choice.

"Doing what you love" is not a birthright. You're being "punished" for having no value to employers. Welcome to reality, Moonbeam.
 
2011-11-03 10:48:49 AM

tricycleracer: Indentured servitude as collateral.


Working conditions for the 99% are such in America that it's pretty much a large amount of indentured servitude to the "job creators". Meanwhile, the real job creators and people who actually work for a living instead of gamble with other people's lives, the producers, are being leeched off of by Soviet-style corporate management.
 
2011-11-03 10:49:48 AM
Let them be discharged in bankruptcy.

That said, you made a shiatty decision spending $100k on a school that wasn't in the top 20.
 
2011-11-03 10:49:51 AM

joness0154: If you let people discharge student loans in bankruptcy, EVERY student would go to college on loans and declare bankruptcy after graduation, essentially guaranteeing free tuition. The 7-10 year credit score hit wouldn't do much harm and the student would benefit in the long run.


Man, I wish free money was real.
 
2011-11-03 10:50:30 AM

evil saltine


Because a car, house, whatever can be repossessed. A degree can't be taken away from you.


The knowledge cannot be repossessed, but consider for a moment if the degree itself could be withdrawn.

HR: "Hello Mr. Slaptyback, your resume says you have a BS from Random University."

ES: "Yes. Yes, I do."

*HR calls R Uni*

RU: "No, I'm sorry; Mr. Slaptyback does not have a degree from this institution."
 
2011-11-03 10:50:33 AM
The significant other went to private university to get a double major in CJ and Psych, proceeded to get a job starting at $35k/yr+benefits+paid vacation. Under Obama's plan where you could only be expected to pay 10% of your annual income towards student loans, her loan payment would drop from ~500 to ~280. That would be huge for us. But, then again... boot straps.
 
2011-11-03 10:50:39 AM

D-D-D-Dave: Man, I wish free money was real.


It is.
It's called being a banker.
 
2011-11-03 10:50:54 AM
I think allowing students loans to be dischargeable would be an excellent move to lower the overall cost of university. If the lenders have to worry about the student discharging the debt, maybe they won't be so keen to lend $50,000 for someone to go to University of Phoenix. A bit more risk on the lender's end would hopefully put some caps on the amount they'll lend and thus start to cap what schools can charge. Look at the Grad Plus loans; since there is no limit to how much you can take, schools keep on pushing their costs up and up. One year LLM programs should in no-way cost $45,000 (there aren't even labs to pay for!)

Student loan debt wouldn't be such a big deal if there were tighter caps on how much could be borrowed. And if those caps come from an increased risk to the lender, then so be it.

/Has large student loans
//Gainfully employed and paying them down
///Has sympathy for those not so lucky
 
2011-11-03 10:51:36 AM
That kid from Berkly is either lying, or a piece of shiat. Or both.
 
2011-11-03 10:52:30 AM
Read an article that said 85% of new graduates had to move back in with their parents. Are we making the claim that 85% of college graduates made poor choices in their majors?

Link (new window)
 
2011-11-03 10:52:42 AM
I dont know where the hell this student loan forgiveness thing came from... I fully support the OWS movement, but NO MORE BAILOUTS! Not for anyone.

Sorry, you dont just get 60k for free... UNLESS the government wants to regulate higher education hard and make it so college is free for everyone. College should be free.. but should also be based on ABILITY.. not every unique and wonderful snowflake getting a degree just for the fark of it.
 
2011-11-03 10:52:49 AM
If you don't want to have to pay back a student loan, don't get one. They should have known going in that they would never be able to have the loan forgiven. Maybe you should really be careful when choosing your degree to make sure it will help you be a self sustaining member of society. Now there's a concept.
 
2011-11-03 10:52:53 AM
Oh look... no engineers listed.

s3.amazonaws.com
 
2011-11-03 10:53:04 AM

DamnYankees: But not for banks, right? Banks make loans, and part of the risks of making a loan is that the person can't pay it back. That's why we have interest, as a hedge against the risk you can't pay a loan back.


Because the property is collateral on the loan. Before the housing bubble, it was a relatively safe bet that the collateral would appreciate. For purchases where collateral doesn't appreciate (e.g. an auto loan), the lender charges a higher interest rate. With a student loan, there is no collateral, and the banks are legally prohibited from charging interest above an artificially-low, administratively-set rate.

But student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Why not? Why doesn't the lender also have to bear the consequences of his choice?

So, make 'em dischargable. But the collateral is every credit the loans paid for.
 
2011-11-03 10:53:07 AM

m2313: They are to blame for the wealth inequality.


How are they to blame for this? Do they mandate wages in private companies?

Those private interests (colluding with the government) essentially stole money from the populace for their private benefits, and continually exploit and screw over the American people.

Citation Please

Any respectable first world nation would choose the government to function for the people (UHC, some further degree of universal education, better working conditions and pay) instead of functioning for the private interests and using the people as its extortion base.

Now we're getting into the old argument of Meritocracy vs. Aristocracy and personally I think a Meritocracy is a better system. Any respectable first world nation would have the leisure time of debating on how best to have the government function for the people (UHC, some further universal education), which is kind of where we're at right now. Not everyone believes that a Government Run health care system is the best most efficient way to service the greater good, and considering the problems with our current Universal Education System, I'd say we should fix that first before we expand upon it.

Personally I think we lost our way when we moved away from Apprenticeships as the entry method to the workforce and towards needing a degree.
 
2011-11-03 10:53:18 AM
Elementary school - no tuition fees - paid for by taxation.
Junior High - no tuition fees - paid for by taxation.
High School - - no tuition fees - paid for by taxation.
University - no tuition fees - paid for by taxation. NO?????

Why the fark not? What is the difference between the first three above and the last one?
Education to any ultimate level should be free to citizens.

Graduating with debt like that is obscene no matter what your major was.
 
2011-11-03 10:53:30 AM

Alonjar: I dont know where the hell this student loan forgiveness thing came from... I fully support the OWS movement, but NO MORE BAILOUTS! Not for anyone.

Sorry, you dont just get 60k for free... UNLESS the government wants to regulate higher education hard and make it so college is free for everyone. College should be free.. but should also be based on ABILITY.. not every unique and wonderful snowflake getting a degree just for the fark of it.


This.
 
2011-11-03 10:53:49 AM
I can't speak about what kids face today. But when I was in college, the financial aid office offered me a loan package of $18K for my first year. I asked why so much, when tuition was only $3500/per semester? I was told that I needed money for housing, food, entertainment, transportation, etc. I told them I had a job for those things. So I accepted only the federally-backed loans that helped cover the cost of tuition, fees and books. Most of it I paid out-of-pocket. Yeah, it was tough working and going to school full time, but I finished with only about $12K in debt and paid it off in five years. So many kids took the full amount offered and had a really good time. They regretted it after graduation.
 
2011-11-03 10:54:04 AM

D-D-D-Dave:
Man, I wish free money was real.


It is if you're a bank, and can borrow from the Fed at 0% interest.
 
2011-11-03 10:54:46 AM
And the last picture "And another year to go" so... she's saying ahead of time that she wants to default. This ends up on the taxpayers, right? How about this:

You can have this discharged in bankruptcy. But, if you do this, you pay higher taxes for the rest of your life (let's say, 10% more). This may or may not be cheaper for you in the long run, but between all the people that would do this it may even out, and cause less burden on other taxpayers that didn't default. Because if you only earn $20k a year, you will be on assistance and not paying much tax anyway, and if you end up making millions a year, the rest of us don't feel had, and your extra tax is going towards people who made the same decision you did and you should support that.
 
2011-11-03 10:54:59 AM

cnocnanrionnag: Elementary school - no tuition fees - paid for by taxation.
Junior High - no tuition fees - paid for by taxation.
High School - - no tuition fees - paid for by taxation.
University - no tuition fees - paid for by taxation. NO?????

Why the fark not? What is the difference between the first three above and the last one?
Education to any ultimate level should be free to citizens.

Graduating with debt like that is obscene no matter what your major was.


Also this.
 
2011-11-03 10:55:16 AM

m2313: D-D-D-Dave: Man, I wish free money was real.

It is.
It's called being a banker.


or welfare
 
2011-11-03 10:55:43 AM

teylix: Oh look... no engineers listed.

[s3.amazonaws.com image 100x100]


They're too busy working for minimum wage and posting on Freep to take part.
 
2011-11-03 10:56:05 AM

evil saltine: DamnYankees: But student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Why not? Why doesn't the lender also have to bear the consequences of his choice?

Because a car, house, whatever can be repossessed. A degree can't be taken away from you.


You're speaking of secured vs unsecured credit. Student loans are unsecured credit, as in you have no collateral to back it up.

However, credit cards are also unsecured credit, and you ARE protected from credit card debt when you file for bankruptcy.
 
2011-11-03 10:56:10 AM

DamnYankees: But student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Why not? Why doesn't the lender also have to bear the consequences of his choice?


...because the risk would make lending tens of thousands of dollars, without collateral, to an 18-year-old with no credit, no idea where he's going with his life, and a high risk of dropping out halfway through otherwise unviable. The government guarantees the loan so that it will be written in the first place, then prevents you from discharging it so that you don't stick the taxpayer.

Now, entirely private loans? Those should be subject to regular bankruptcy rules, as they used to be just a little while ago. I don't see why not. However, these appear to be about the federal ones.

A better question would be why is the government guaranteeing five or six figures for people to major in Joblessness Studies when we're simultaneously brewing a technical skills shortage in this country. Three of these people do self-identify as Communicatons/Journalism majors in the first paragraph, and these articles are almost always about people who thought it would be fun to major in Journalism, Drama, Literature, Political Science, etc., and are surprised to find out that their $120k undergraduate degree from a prestigious campus doesn't mean anything and that they aren't cut out for graduate school.
 
2011-11-03 10:56:25 AM

cnocnanrionnag: Education to any ultimate level should be free to citizens.


It'd be nice if everything in life was free, but we just can't afford it.
 
2011-11-03 10:56:36 AM

haywatchthis: or welfare


Welfare is for people who need some form of subsistence to live.
If you'd rather give them the baseline materials to live than the money to buy it themselves, go for it.
The bankers are just thieves robbing the American people.
 
2011-11-03 10:56:38 AM
If you are dumb enough to loan someone $100k to be a communications major, then you deserve to not get that money paid back.
 
2011-11-03 10:56:46 AM

m2313: D-D-D-Dave: Man, I wish free money was real.

It is.
It's called being a banker.


Mnemia: D-D-D-Dave:
Man, I wish free money was real.

It is if you're a bank, and can borrow from the Fed at 0% interest.


I am clearly in the wrong business
 
2011-11-03 10:56:57 AM

Litig8r: Let them be discharged in bankruptcy.

That said, you made a shiatty decision spending $100k on a school that wasn't in the top 20.


How about indefinite deferral, no additional interest accrued? When you get that good job 5-10 years down the road then you start payments.
 
2011-11-03 10:57:55 AM
I am a month away from graduation with a degree in computer science from a cheap public university in Kentucky. I got an internship last summer and turned that into a full-time offer of employment from a local, well-respected company. I will have just over $20k in student loan debt that with careful planning, I will be able to repay without consequence to my everyday life.

Where's my article?

Oh yeah, I forgot. People don't write articles about people who DON'T accrue unreasonable amounts of debt to pursue wacky degrees from "prestigious" universities, otherwise known as, NORMAL SANE PEOPLE.
 
2011-11-03 10:58:33 AM

Yanks_RSJ: I'm going to school for creative nonfiction writing ... But why are my poor peers and I being punished for wanting to do what we love in the first place?


You can write as a hobby. Maybe you make some money and it becomes a career. However, until then you get a reliable major and drag yourself to work just like the rest of us. If the creative writing folks get a break on their loans, I want a bonus from the government for my major which allowed me to be productive in the workforce right out of college.
 
2011-11-03 10:58:37 AM

PanicMan: Litig8r: Let them be discharged in bankruptcy.

That said, you made a shiatty decision spending $100k on a school that wasn't in the top 20.

How about indefinite deferral, no additional interest accrued? When you get that good job 5-10 years down the road then you start payments.


There needs to be some interest accumulated to account for inflation.
 
2011-11-03 10:58:42 AM

gochuck: I think allowing students loans to be dischargeable would be an excellent move to lower the overall cost of university. If the lenders have to worry about the student discharging the debt, maybe they won't be so keen to lend $50,000 for someone to go to University of Phoenix. A bit more risk on the lender's end would hopefully put some caps on the amount they'll lend and thus start to cap what schools can charge. Look at the Grad Plus loans; since there is no limit to how much you can take, schools keep on pushing their costs up and up. One year LLM programs should in no-way cost $45,000 (there aren't even labs to pay for!)

Student loan debt wouldn't be such a big deal if there were tighter caps on how much could be borrowed. And if those caps come from an increased risk to the lender, then so be it.

/Has large student loans
//Gainfully employed and paying them down
///Has sympathy for those not so lucky


exactly. tuition has ballooned out of control...
 
2011-11-03 10:58:53 AM

JackieRabbit: So many kids took the full amount offered and had a really good time. They regretted it after graduation.


Are you saying you enjoy seeing others' naivety taken advantage of?
 
2011-11-03 10:59:26 AM
Also, to all those who say "kids made bad choices, too bad": are you even aware of how much tuition costs have gone up over the years? Even mediocre state school tuition is generally quite expense, nowadays, and has risen far faster than middle class incomes have risen. That means that unless the parents are quite well-off, people generally have to get sizable loans to pay for school if they go anywhere other than a community college. That isn't a burden that was demanded of previous generations of Americans. You can work during school, etc, and still not come close to being able to support yourself and pay that tuition.

So while yes, some people made bad decisions and are paying for them, this isn't something that we did to young people in the past. And it's screwing them pretty hard. Especially now that having a college degree isn't worth what it used to be. Now it's just a minimum requirement for most white-collar jobs.
 
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