What's wrong, McFly? Chicken?

Eh, that sounds like work. I think I'm going to take a nap.

If I was Greece I would continue saying fark you to the political elite and financial elite and handle it the way they want to handle it. The banks made bad bets and they want every person in the nation to pay for it. Fark that. Let the people decide if they want austerity or to be forced out of the EU

AqueousBoy:

What's wrong, McFlyopadopolous? Chicken?

FTFY

bhcompy: If I was Greece I would continue saying fark you to the political elite and financial elite and handle it the way they want to handle it. The banks made bad bets and they want every person in the nation to pay for it. Fark that. Let the people decide if they want austerity or to be forced out of the EU

Well that's nice and all socialisticly fun to say, but what do they do tomorrow after they vote for no austerity and no EU and, since they are now out of other people's money, have no way to pay for the day after? How are they going to make it since they do not have sufficient income to even simply pay the existing bills on a daily basis?

Socialism: It's wicked fun until you run out of other people's money to spend

bhcompy: If I was Greece I would continue saying fark you to the political elite and financial elite and handle it the way they want to handle it. The banks made bad bets and they want every person in the nation to pay for it. Fark that. Let the people decide if they want austerity or to be forced out of the EU

I agree, sort of. If the Greeks want to continue their wastrel ways, I don't see how the northern countries can be expected to continue to subsidize it. Let Greece become the runaway inflation plagued economic backwater it apparently wants to be. If that's what the Greeks want, so be it. They are a sovereign nation and can decide for themselves.

I'm beginning to come around to the view, occassionally voiced here, that the whole Euro experiment was doomed to failure, and German taxpayer money is better used elsewhere than propping up irresponsible PIIGS. My previous optimism regarding the Eurozone may have been unfounded.

Around the corner at the Cafe 80s, a guy named Griff, just say no!

bhcompy: The banks made bad bets and they want every person in the nation to pay for it.

And the Greek Government committed fraud.

And the EU is taking forcible measures to keep those banks from collecting on their hedges they made in the event those "bets" went bad.

But really, totally the lenders fault. The borrower is at no way responsible here. Carry on.

remus: bhcompy: If I was Greece I would continue saying fark you to the political elite and financial elite and handle it the way they want to handle it. The banks made bad bets and they want every person in the nation to pay for it. Fark that. Let the people decide if they want austerity or to be forced out of the EU

Well that's nice and all socialisticly fun to say, but what do they do tomorrow after they vote for no austerity and no EU and, since they are now out of other people's money, have no way to pay for the day after? How are they going to make it since they do not have sufficient income to even simply pay the existing bills on a daily basis?

Socialism: It's wicked fun until you run out of other people's money to spend

That's their problem and their choice. They're a sovereign nation. EU zone political and financial leaders are trying to end run around that fact, when, ultimately, it's their fault they let a nation with a history of problems like this into the EU. Stop socializing the losses, particularly when the companies and countries that will benefit are not of the same people that will be making the sacrifices.

remus: but what do they do tomorrow after they vote for no austerity and no EU

Well... they starve.

It's pretty tough to eat olive oil.

remus:
Socialism: It's wicked fun until you run out of other people's money to spend

Always fun to say, but in reality Greece's problem is their IRS has no real power to collect income taxes, so no one ever pays Income taxes. So the government has no revenue, but continues to spend on things.

Huh. A government with little to no income taxes or power to collect them...now -that- political plan does sound familiar...

vaderstg: remus: but what do they do tomorrow after they vote for no austerity and no EU

Well... they starve.

It's pretty tough to eat olive oil.

Just wait til it hits the anus.

JokerMattly: remus:
Socialism: It's wicked fun until you run out of other people's money to spend

Always fun to say, but in reality Greece's problem is their IRS has no real power to collect income taxes, so no one ever pays Income taxes. So the government has no revenue, but continues to spend on things.

Huh. A government with little to no income taxes or power to collect them...now -that- political plan does sound familiar...

Fear not. A tax cut for the rich or two, and jobs will be created as far as the eye can see!!!

vaderstg: But really, totally the lenders fault. The borrower is at no way responsible here. Carry on.

The EU didn't care that Greece has a history of horrible economic and fiscal conditions and decisions. Greece was essentially a subprime mortgage, and the homeowner never had the means long term to keep up with the expectations the leinholder expected.

didn't we just do this thread a couple of days ago? filled with posters attempting to pin the blame on one group of people, when everyone was at fault?

oh great, I loved that.

vaderstg: remus: but what do they do tomorrow after they vote for no austerity and no EU

Well... they starve.

It's pretty tough to eat olive oil.

Greece has the longest coastline of all the mediterranean countries. I'm pretty sure they'll be able to find some food somewhere.

bhcompy: Stop socializing the losses, particularly when the companies and countries that will benefit are not of the same people that will be making the sacrifices.

And yet, if they decide to "go their own way", their banking sector immediately collapses, their hard currency runs out, their pension checks stop coming for all those people who aren't working, they stop being able to pay for their food imports... You can't implement a new currency overnight. So unless they've secretly planned for this day, they're really in a box here.

Are you really ready to see Greece do its Zimbabwe impression? Except this time, it'll be without even the pretense of a "currency" issue.

bhcompy: The EU didn't care that Greece has a history of horrible economic and fiscal conditions and decisions. Greece was essentially a subprime mortgage, and the homeowner never had the means long term to keep up with the expectations the leinholder expected.

I totally agree! They never should have been allowed to enter the eurozone in the first place. But the ramifications of fixing that decision in an ad hoc way are a lot more extensive than just a few under capitalized banks in the core of the Eurozone.

vaderstg: bhcompy: Stop socializing the losses, particularly when the companies and countries that will benefit are not of the same people that will be making the sacrifices.

And yet, if they decide to "go their own way", their banking sector immediately collapses, their hard currency runs out, their pension checks stop coming for all those people who aren't working, they stop being able to pay for their food imports... You can't implement a new currency overnight. So unless they've secretly planned for this day, they're really in a box here.

Are you really ready to see Greece do its Zimbabwe impression? Except this time, it'll be without even the pretense of a "currency" issue.

Again, that's their problem. The banks aren't pushing for this because they're philanthropists looking out for the future of Greece. They're doing this because they want to get their money despite making a bad bet. If a nation wants to make a bad decision, that's their prerogative. No one stepped in to stop us when we voted in Bush/Obama(pick based on your political affinity, each side calls the other worst ever).

And if you're asked if you're a god, SAY YES!

bhcompy: vaderstg: bhcompy: Stop socializing the losses, particularly when the companies and countries that will benefit are not of the same people that will be making the sacrifices.

And yet, if they decide to "go their own way", their banking sector immediately collapses, their hard currency runs out, their pension checks stop coming for all those people who aren't working, they stop being able to pay for their food imports... You can't implement a new currency overnight. So unless they've secretly planned for this day, they're really in a box here.

Are you really ready to see Greece do its Zimbabwe impression? Except this time, it'll be without even the pretense of a "currency" issue.

Again, that's their problem. The banks aren't pushing for this because they're philanthropists looking out for the future of Greece. They're doing this because they want to get their money despite making a bad bet. If a nation wants to make a bad decision, that's their prerogative. No one stepped in to stop us when we voted in Bush/Obama(pick based on your political affinity, each side calls the other worst ever).

the banks are losing half of their investments in this deal. I hardly call that getting your money back.

vaderstg: remus: but what do they do tomorrow after they vote for no austerity and no EU

Well... they starve.

It's pretty tough to eat olive oil.

I'll say! Guhguhguhguhguhguhguhguh!

Nationalize the Greeks. or Euro-ize them, or whatever. Turn Greece into common property owned by all Europeans

DJ Kulture: Greece has the longest coastline of all the mediterranean countries. I'm pretty sure they'll be able to find some food somewhere.

Fair - and they do produce more wheat than they export. But they import both corn and barley - much of which gets used for feed. So they're going to have to do some substitution there.

But they've still got no manufacturing sector to speak of and if they default they sure as shiat won't be able to do any borrowing for an extended period of time. Leaving the eurozone so abruptly will cause a lot of pain to a lot of people - far more so than what the "austerity" measures would impose.

I don't know much about economics; but I think I'd rather see a deadbeat tossed out than kept around.

I hope Greece leaves the EU.

vaderstg: bhcompy: Stop socializing the losses, particularly when the companies and countries that will benefit are not of the same people that will be making the sacrifices.

And yet, if they decide to "go their own way", their banking sector immediately collapses, their hard currency runs out, their pension checks stop coming for all those people who aren't working, they stop being able to pay for their food imports... You can't implement a new currency overnight. So unless they've secretly planned for this day, they're really in a box here.

Are you really ready to see Greece do its Zimbabwe impression? Except this time, it'll be without even the pretense of a "currency" issue.

If it clears out the bankers that started the mess, fine. That's what needs to happen.

To help out I am willing to purchase their island of lesbians.

bhcompy: They're doing this because they want to get their money despite making a bad bet.

...and they hedged those bets with CDSs that the ECB and Eurozone finance departments are refusing to allow them to execute. So if a Greek "haircut" is off the table b/c the Greeks officially default, are you suggesting the CDSs be allowed to execute?

Tyrone Slothrop: And if you're asked if you're a god, SAY YES!

ah, yes, thank you very much, came for the ghostbuster reference.

now, I've been gone a few days due to loss of power from the october nor'easter. what is with the star icon besides the screen names, and the little circle with the 'no' slash at the end of the screen name bar?

Michael Lewis article from Vanity Fair that is relevant to this thread. (new window)

/It'll all be fine until the olive oil his the anus.

Lost Thought 00: Nationalize the Greeks. or Euro-ize them, or whatever. Turn Greece into common property owned by all Europeans

that right there, that's weapons-grade stupid.

instead of doing an end-run around national sovereignty as the Euro is doing now, your solution is to remove their sovereignty entirely? What happens when they resist?

Hyppy: danno_to_infinity: now, I've been gone a few days due to loss of power from the october nor'easter. what is with the star icon besides the screen names, and the little circle with the 'no' slash at the end of the screen name bar?

Hover thy mouse-pointer o'er yonder icons, and thy questions shall be answered.

Ah, I see, said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.

Comic Book Guy: Lost Thought 00: Nationalize the Greeks. or Euro-ize them, or whatever. Turn Greece into common property owned by all Europeans

that right there, that's weapons-grade stupid.

instead of doing an end-run around national sovereignty as the Euro is doing now, your solution is to remove their sovereignty entirely? What happens when they resist?

Historically the last time the Greeks resisted the Germans, it didn't turn out well.

vaderstg: bhcompy: They're doing this because they want to get their money despite making a bad bet.

...and they hedged those bets with CDSs that the ECB and Eurozone finance departments are refusing to allow them to execute. So if a Greek "haircut" is off the table b/c the Greeks officially default, are you suggesting the CDSs be allowed to execute?

It was the bondholders that agreed to the haircut, not the Greeks. At this point, the G20 need to be worrying about the CDS cascade, since the Greeks are set up to fail.

A simple solution would be to cut the Greeks out of the middle and directly bail out the bondholders, who have already agreed to the 50% haircut.

sethstorm: If it clears out the bankers that started the mess,

You're not really solid on how "the mess" got started, now, are ya?

IoSaturnalia: A simple solution would be to cut the Greeks out of the middle and directly bail out the bondholders, who have already agreed to the 50% haircut.

I agree - I think that'll stop the contagion part. Now about that whole "Greece falling apart" piece...

Maybe the rest of Europe should take them over and turn it into a giant tourist attraction, Like in the movie westworld. Fill with robot greeks in togas.
Or say fark it burn it to the ground and collect the insurance.

dumbobruni: didn't we just do this thread a couple of days ago? filled with posters attempting to pin the blame on one group of people, when everyone was at fault?

oh great, I loved that.

I've seen that too, and no one group is responsible. It is a cultural disease in Greece. Everyone there, regardless of income level, made it their goal to avoid paying taxes. I'm sure the rich were probably "better" at it since they could hide, as a percentage, more money, but tax evasion is the national sport. Greece should have never been allowed in the EU. They're a novelty economy, a sideshow where you can stop by and marvel at what a country would look like if its citizens, from every walk of life, routinely refused to pay taxes.

Why can't they just turf Greece from the eurozone and the EU, then take the 138bn euro in bailout cash and give to the lender banks to help soften the blow of Greece, from a financial view point, not existing anymore? As for what happens in Greece, you reap what you sow.

bhcompy: If I was Greece I would continue saying fark you to the political elite and financial elite and handle it the way they want to handle it. The banks made bad bets and they want every person in the nation to pay for it. Fark that. Let the people decide if they want austerity or to be forced out of the EU

The banks refused to pay their taxes for generations but enjoyed the benefits those taxes were supposed to pay for?

This argument is silly: it's the banks fault for not forcing fiscal responsibility on the greek people, who after-all are incapable of doing math or realizing that perpetual debts cause trouble. Makes as much sense as blaming your credit card company for allowing you to buy multiple big-screen tvs you couldn't afford. Maybe you should have bought a mirror instead.

remus: bhcompy: If I was Greece I would continue saying fark you to the political elite and financial elite and handle it the way they want to handle it. The banks made bad bets and they want every person in the nation to pay for it. Fark that. Let the people decide if they want austerity or to be forced out of the EU

Well that's nice and all socialisticly fun to say, but what do they do tomorrow after they vote for no austerity and no EU and, since they are now out of other people's money, have no way to pay for the day after? How are they going to make it since they do not have sufficient income to even simply pay the existing bills on a daily basis?

Socialism: It's wicked fun until you run out of other people's money to spend


Greece has defaulted a few times in the past - something like 3 or 4 times. They weren't in the Eurozone then, sure, but they survived. Argentina defaulted in, what, 2002? Yes, it was a problem in the short term, but from what I understand they seem to be coming back pretty strongly now.

They could have trouble in the short term, but in the long term it could be good for them. It might also force them to start collecting taxes and shiat like a normal nation and generally get their act together. However, to do that they will certainly need to bring their own currency back and have it have a pretty low value to make their goods and services more attractive to nations with stronger currencies...

...and therein lies the rub. A Greek default isn't necessarily the worst thing that could happen to Greece itself, but it would cause massive problems in much of the rest of the EU. French banks are heavily invested in Greek debt. Banks start to fail, currency runs happen all over the EU, then other troubled EU nations (like Ireland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc.) all start failing and the Euro implodes. At that point things get scary and there will be ripple effects throughout the world economy.

China would even have problems. The EU is the biggest consumer of Chinese goods. That's why they were so willing to help prop up the Euro last week.

Greece's main industry has been toursim but that industry has suffered ever since they switched to the euro. When they had their own currency, it was much weaker than almost all other European currencies thus a lot of people travelled there. Once people had to pay in Euros to go to Greece, a lot of the stopped. Add to that an economy that has not grown in years and you have default.

Add to that Goldman Sachs cooking the books to get Greece in the EU and you're in the situation you're in today.

Greece should default, go back to the weak currency they had before and make money off tourism again.

The Euro zone should have stayed at 15 countries and not expanded to 25 that soon. They took on way too many countries that were not developed enough. Those 10 countries that they added made a ton of concessions to get into the EU and those concessions, while they helped the rich in those countries, have hurt the regular citizens.

ddam: Greece's main industry has been toursim but that industry has suffered ever since they switched to the euro. When they had their own currency, it was much weaker than almost all other European currencies thus a lot of people travelled there. Once people had to pay in Euros to go to Greece, a lot of the stopped. Add to that an economy that has not grown in years and you have default.

Add to that Goldman Sachs cooking the books to get Greece in the EU and you're in the situation you're in today.

Greece should default, go back to the weak currency they had before and make money off tourism again.

The Euro zone should have stayed at 15 countries and not expanded to 25 that soon. They took on way too many countries that were not developed enough. Those 10 countries that they added made a ton of concessions to get into the EU and those concessions, while they helped the rich in those countries, have hurt the regular citizens.

They could go the Montenegro route. Don't even issue your own currency. get kicked out of the Euro but still use it as your currency. Things would still be cheaper there then in Germany and tourist would be able to use the currency they are used to.

watson.t.hamster: bhcompy: If I was Greece I would continue saying fark you to the political elite and financial elite and handle it the way they want to handle it. The banks made bad bets and they want every person in the nation to pay for it. Fark that. Let the people decide if they want austerity or to be forced out of the EU

The banks refused to pay their taxes for generations but enjoyed the benefits those taxes were supposed to pay for?

This argument is silly: it's the banks fault for not forcing fiscal responsibility on the greek people, who after-all are incapable of doing math or realizing that perpetual debts cause trouble. Makes as much sense as blaming your credit card company for allowing you to buy multiple big-screen tvs you couldn't afford. Maybe you should have bought a mirror instead.

In the example you gave, it is the banks fault for extending unsecured credit lines to people that cannot pay the money back. The person that bought those "multiple big-screen tvs" will have shiatty credit score for a while and the bank is out of the money.

The only threat a bank has when it offers unsecured credit is that of ruined credit score. If you don't care about your credit score, a bank can't do anything. And the same thing happened in Greece. The balance sheets looked like a mess so Goldman Sachs comes in, makes them look pretty in the short run, collects their fees and then farks the banks that pony up the money in the arse... with no vaseline.

The culture of tax avoiding in Greece didn't start after Greece was accepted to the EU. It's been there for hundreds of years. Greece has always been occupied by one empire or another thus any tax paid by the citizens would leave the country... thus they stopped paying taxes. IT'S NOT SOMETHING NEW.

Spoogie: Why can't they just turf Greece from the eurozone and the EU, then take the 138bn euro in bailout cash and give to the lender banks to help soften the blow of Greece, from a financial view point, not existing anymore? As for what happens in Greece, you reap what you sow.

Because that might be a good solution for Greece, which would encourage Italy, Portugal, Ireland and Spain to do the same. All this would be good for individual countries in Europe but bad for the bondholders and politicians with their snouts in the trough.

ddam: watson.t.hamster: bhcompy: If I was Greece I would continue saying fark you to the political elite and financial elite and handle it the way they want to handle it. The banks made bad bets and they want every person in the nation to pay for it. Fark that. Let the people decide if they want austerity or to be forced out of the EU

The banks refused to pay their taxes for generations but enjoyed the benefits those taxes were supposed to pay for?

This argument is silly: it's the banks fault for not forcing fiscal responsibility on the greek people, who after-all are incapable of doing math or realizing that perpetual debts cause trouble. Makes as much sense as blaming your credit card company for allowing you to buy multiple big-screen tvs you couldn't afford. Maybe you should have bought a mirror instead.

In the example you gave, it is the banks fault for extending unsecured credit lines to people that cannot pay the money back. The person that bought those "multiple big-screen tvs" will have shiatty credit score for a while and the bank is out of the money.

The only threat a bank has when it offers unsecured credit is that of ruined credit score. If you don't care about your credit score, a bank can't do anything. And the same thing happened in Greece. The balance sheets looked like a mess so Goldman Sachs comes in, makes them look pretty in the short run, collects their fees and then farks the banks that pony up the money in the arse... with no vaseline.

The culture of tax avoiding in Greece didn't start after Greece was accepted to the EU. It's been there for hundreds of years.

You can't ignore the fact that A) the greek voters demanded benefits that can only be sustained in a high tax environment but B) refused to pay those taxes.

I don't care that they've been tax cheats forever, they were pederasts for longer but I wouldn't excuse that behavior today. They aren't an occupied nation today, so this isn't patriotic tax-evasion, just greedy.

They made their choices, why should they be continually bailed out by Germans who work far harder, enjoy fewer benefits, and DO pay their taxes? Sure they want a free ride, most people do. But they shouldn't be protected like some spoiled teenager who didn't realize credit cards had to be paid back. At some point you have to let them fail so they can make hard choices and grow up a bit.


Greece has always been occupied by one empire or another thus any tax paid by the citizens would leave the country... thus they stopped paying taxes. IT'S NOT SOMETHING NEW.

When someone dies of cancer they didn't typically develop it at that exact second. It's been growing for a while, even if the symptoms were ignored. Saying it can't be their fault because they've been lazy cheats forever doesn't make any sense. They got away with it for this long, but the party had to end at some point.