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(BBC)   Teachers' advice to end bullying problem: "Act less gay"   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 465
    More: Asinine, Stonewall, gay bashing, bullying, National Union of Teachers, Essex County Council  
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11041 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Nov 2011 at 9:08 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-11-02 10:32:00 PM

Big_Fat_Liar: A total act. According to a gay friend of mine, just about every time you put 20 gay guys in a room at a party and add some alcohol, the lisping and "girlfriending" or femmy behavior gets pretty hysterical, with half of the people trying to out gay each other. (the other half being normal gay people that don't do that)


So people act differently depending on the crowd they are with. This is somehow new information?
 
2011-11-02 10:33:22 PM

bravian: Big_Fat_Liar: A total act. According to a gay friend of mine, just about every time you put 20 gay guys in a room at a party and add some alcohol, the lisping and "girlfriending" or femmy behavior gets pretty hysterical, with half of the people trying to out gay each other. (the other half being normal gay people that don't do that)

So people act differently depending on the crowd they are with. This is somehow new information?


I've had 20 gay dudes in a room at a party and generally there isn't much talking after the first twenty or so minutes.
 
2011-11-02 10:34:19 PM

Biological Ali: JanusofZeal: I stand by what I said. Some people are obnoxious twats and I have very little sympathy for them being picked on. It's called karma. I won't apologize for something I meant.

It's inflammatory because nothing excuses rape. There's a world of difference between calling someone fat and violating them sexually.

Nothing excuses punching somebody (who isn't harming you or anybody else) either! That's the whole point!

If you truly have "very little sympathy" for people being attacked just because they may or may not have done something that was "stereotypically gay" (leave alone the fact that you haven't even articulated why that would be "obnoxious" to begin with), then you deserve every bit of scorn that's been directed at you here.


See my previous post about attention whores and the irrational hate they get from many farkers.

Not saying it's right but it's there.
 
2011-11-02 10:34:22 PM
Man, people in this thread have absolutely raped the poor Socratic method.
 
2011-11-02 10:35:34 PM

adamgreeney: JanusofZeal: adamgreeney: See here? Look at the bold part. You are saying the kid might be asking for it by acting a certain way. So how does one need to act to deserve bullying?

See how in all that you just quoted and in all that bolding you did, you did not highlight or find a single part where I said it was okay to bully?
You directly quoted me. Good for you. You did not directly quote anything saying what you claimed I said.
.

You said a certain set of behaviors bothered you, and that if this kid acted that way, maybe not acting that way would lead to not being bullied. What are those behaviors?



He specifically said a list of actions and then a set of actions, but he has yet to name a single one of these actions. Why? Why not just one? One item on your list. Just one.
 
2011-11-02 10:36:17 PM

itsdrew: Man, people in this thread have absolutely raped the poor Socratic method.


I think "a raping of the Socratic method" is the definition of a Fark thread in general.
 
2011-11-02 10:37:43 PM

PonceAlyosha: JanusofZeal: I stand by what I said. Some people are obnoxious twats and I have very little sympathy for them being picked on. It's called karma. I won't apologize for something I meant.

Ah, here you are condoning violence against children again.


Not sure if serious.jpg

Arklop: JanusofZeal: I don't have anything against being gay. I have something against people acting like the over the top flamboyantly gay stereotype. It's a list of actions. I don't like straight people that do it. I don't like gay people that do it. I don't like bisexuals, pansexuals, asexuals, pandas,squirrels, or autonomous robotic systems that act like it. Being gay is irrelevant to it entirely. The point is I don't like a set of actions that is commonly associated with a certain stereotype.


JanusofZeal: adamgreeney: You are dodging the question.

Why is that stereotypical behavior worthy of bullying? What about it bothers you so much that you think it's ok to bully someone for?

I'm dodging you trying to shove me into something I didn't say.


Excuse me, but "list of actions" and "set of actions" are very much something you DID say. Now if you'd be so kind, please answer the question.


JanusofZeal: So if you want me to address something, how about doing it by not putting words in my mouth and not asking loaded questions?

This is not a loaded question. This is not someone putting words in your mouth. These are the very words you typed. Look at them. They're right up there in bold. Now, pretty please with sugar top, answer the question. Share this list of actions you mentioned...twice.


BZZT. Reading comprehension fail AGAIN. I did not say they were a list of actions that describe gay people. That's what I was accused of. I notice you didn't include a quote of what was actually asked. Allow me to do that for you.

adamgreeney: Also, you keep saying you don't like how we act[1]. How is that[2]? You obviously have a list of things you find annoying and "stereotypical." What is it? And why does it deserve bullying[3]]?

See that first part, the part I labelled 1? Yea, I didn't say it was how "they" act. I said I didn't like actions conforming to the stereotype of a flamboyant over the top gay. I didn't say that's how "they" act. I said I don't like the actions described by a stereotype. If you can't understand the distinction, piss off.
Now for part [2] Since I didn't say "they" acted in any particular way, it's a pretty loaded question. How am I supposed to describe how I think "they" act when I've never claimed that there was a single set of actions that described it nor have I claimed that "they" all act a single way. It's trying to trap me into claiming everyone acts the same. Loaded question.
Finally for part [3] "why does it deserve bullying?" is a pretty loaded question when I never said it deserved bullying. It's right up there with "when did you stop beating your wife?" It doesn't deserve bullying, and I've never claimed otherwise.

So yea, it's a leading bullshiat loaded question attack on me, and I won't answer it. If you'd like to try again, asking whatever question you have without putting words in my mouth or using loaded questions, feel free.
 
2011-11-02 10:37:49 PM

Aarontology: jehovahs witness protection: JanusofZeal: Seems reasonable to me. If I was being bullied for being nerdy good advice might be to act less nerdy. It doesn't have to change the fact that I AM nerdy.

Maybe the kid is just annoying. I've got nothing against gay people, but the super flamboyant over the top lisp stereotyped style of gay drives me crazy. It doesn't drive me crazy because it's gay. It drives me crazy because it's annoying. I'd want to punch a straight man in the face for doing it too.

/He'll get over it.

You pretty much covered my exact thoughts.
Sound advice...listen to it.

Blaming the victim. Classy.

Tell me, do you guys also think women who get raped shouldn't have dressed the way they did?


You sound fat gay.

Annoying is annoying and has nothing to do with being gay or anything else.
 
2011-11-02 10:37:53 PM

Arklop: adamgreeney: JanusofZeal: adamgreeney: See here? Look at the bold part. You are saying the kid might be asking for it by acting a certain way. So how does one need to act to deserve bullying?

See how in all that you just quoted and in all that bolding you did, you did not highlight or find a single part where I said it was okay to bully?
You directly quoted me. Good for you. You did not directly quote anything saying what you claimed I said.
.

You said a certain set of behaviors bothered you, and that if this kid acted that way, maybe not acting that way would lead to not being bullied. What are those behaviors?


He specifically said a list of actions and then a set of actions, but he has yet to name a single one of these actions. Why? Why not just one? One item on your list. Just one.


It's like he's dangling this cash of knowledge in our faces and teasing us with it. :(
 
2011-11-02 10:38:34 PM

m2313: I think "a raping of the Socratic method" is the definition of a Fark thread in general.


A continued repeating of the basics?

/Ouch, you're right!
 
2011-11-02 10:39:15 PM

JanusofZeal: ...Clearly I'm homophobic for that statement. I'll have to inform my gay friends that also hate that stuff that they are homophobic as well...


Ah, the "gay friends" card. You don't have gay friends, just as people accused of being racist don't have "black friends."
 
2011-11-02 10:40:43 PM

JanusofZeal: I have something against people acting like the over the top flamboyantly gay stereotype. It's a list of actions. I don't like straight people that do it. I don't like gay people that do it. I don't like bisexuals, pansexuals, asexuals, pandas,squirrels, or autonomous robotic systems that act like it. Being gay is irrelevant to it entirely. The point is I don't like a set of actions that is commonly associated with a certain stereotype.



You are the whiniest person I've ever seen on fark. Here, in the giant farking blob of quotes you keep dragging out, is you straight up saying you're fine with people beating on people who act "gay." Seriously shut the fark up and stop trying to convince people you said anything different.
 
2011-11-02 10:41:50 PM
"Hm. Have you tried not being a target? You have? Well then, I'm just at a loss."
 
2011-11-02 10:43:43 PM

m2313: itsdrew: Man, people in this thread have absolutely raped the poor Socratic method.

I think "a raping of the Socratic method" is the definition of a Fark thread in general.


Yeah, good point. I usually like how it works when it's meant to facilitate a friendly discussion, but Farkers turn it in to a big "gotcha" game. Then again, some of my favorite posts are the CSBs, the ones where a person just gives an opinion/viewpoint and leaves it at that. Yeah I know, I'm in the WRONG place for that. Some people just have a lot of trouble dealing with conflicting ideas I guess.
 
2011-11-02 10:44:09 PM

JanusofZeal: I did not say they were a list of actions that describe gay people.


No, you said...

JanusofZeal: I don't have anything against being gay. I have something against people acting like the over the top flamboyantly gay stereotype. It's a list of actions.


You said have something against people acting from a list of actions. What's the list of "over the top flamboyantly gay stereotype" stuff? That's the question I asked you, Mr. Reading Comprehension. Still waiting for an answer.
 
2011-11-02 10:44:33 PM

JanusofZeal:

adamgreeney: Also, you keep saying you don't like how we act[1]. How is that[2]? You obviously have a list of things you find annoying and "stereotypical." What is it? And why does it deserve bullying[3]]?
See that first part, the part I labelled 1? Yea, I didn't say it was how "they" act. I said I didn't like actions conforming to the stereotype of a flamboyant over the top gay. I didn't say that's how "they" act. I said I don't like the actions described by a stereotype. If you can't understand the distinction, piss off.
Now for part [2] Since I didn't say "they" acted in any particular way, it's a pretty loaded question. How am I supposed to describe how I think "they" act when I've never claimed that there was a single set of actions that described it nor have I claimed that "they" all act a single way. It's trying to trap me into claiming everyone acts the same. Loaded question.
Finally for part [3] "why does it deserve bullying?" is a pretty loaded question when I never said it deserved bullying. It's right up there with "when did you stop beating your wife?" It doesn't deserve bullying, and I've never claimed otherwise.

So yea, it's a leading bullshiat loaded question attack on me, and I won't answer it. If you'd like to try again, asking whatever question you have without putting words in my mouth or using loaded questions, feel free.


um. . . Read what i said again.

"You obviously have a list of things you find annoying and "stereotypical." What is it?"

Do you understand that question? You said EXACTLY THAT. Leave actual gay people out of it. What is the stereotypical behavior that you dislike in gay and straight people? What were you referring to in your first few posts? I'm asking you to clarify what you said.
 
2011-11-02 10:44:43 PM

Savage Belief: See my previous post about attention whores and the irrational hate they get from many farkers.

Not saying it's right but it's there.


Yes, I know it's there. What we have here, though, is somebody purporting to justify it through argument, as opposed to admitting that there's no rational basis. Personally, none of it makes any sense to me - finding something "obnoxious" for being "stereotypically gay" seems as sensible as picking on somebody for being "stereotypically straight". I'm just not seeing what there is to be upset or offended by to begin with.
 
2011-11-02 10:45:07 PM

adamgreeney: JanusofZeal: adamgreeney: See here? Look at the bold part. You are saying the kid might be asking for it by acting a certain way. So how does one need to act to deserve bullying?

See how in all that you just quoted and in all that bolding you did, you did not highlight or find a single part where I said it was okay to bully?
You directly quoted me. Good for you. You did not directly quote anything saying what you claimed I said.
.

You said a certain set of behaviors bothered you, and that if this kid acted that way, maybe not acting that way would lead to not being bullied. What are those behaviors?


Cultural/societal norms are going to be subjective. Some traits are considered desirable while others are considered undesirable (compare playing guitar to playing violin amongst high school kids, or doing gymnastics to skateboarding).

Intentional behaviors that set you apart from the social norms in a direction that is considered undesirable *invite* bullying. That doesn't make it okay, but we live in a less than perfect world.

For example; being really fat makes you a target for bullying.
Being really in shape makes you a target for homecoming king.

(we can argue whether or not being fat is a behavior, but I think you get the gist).

In some cases, it might be easy to change your behavior in such a way that you conform to cultural norms and avoid bullying; rather than changing cultural norms. For example, if I were to wear women's clothing and makeup in high school; people would have made fun of me for it. I could consider *not* wearing women's clothing and makeup in high school to avoid that.

A more practical example is that, when I'm at home I might sit in my underwear and type on my laptop. But at work, I wear business casual clothing.

This doesn't mean I support bullying. Personally, I hate the world bullying because it means too many things. On the 'weak' end of the bullying spectrum you'll simply be unpopular. People won't like you much. There is nothing that will change that. On the far end of bullying you have physical violence and that, regardless of the situation, needs to be addressed severely.

Still, bottom line - it's VERY difficult to change social norms and pretty darn easy to change your behavior in a particular social setting. It's not the only solution but I don't see why it shouldn't be a consideration.
 
2011-11-02 10:46:23 PM
I honestly do not try to "act gay." There should be some accounting for people who just "act gay" by accident.

And there isn't all that much "acting" involved. Everybody knows I'm gay shortly after meeting me. I'm not putting up a billboard. I just have certain mannerisms that identify me... just as certain mannerisms can identify a person who is shy, a person who is violent, a person who is introverted or extroverted, et. al.

No kid deserves to be forced to act like a straight meathead just to survive school. Let's worry less about how we can cure gay kids of "acting gay" and more about how we can cure assholes of "being assholes."
 
2011-11-02 10:46:56 PM

Biological Ali: JanusofZeal: I stand by what I said. Some people are obnoxious twats and I have very little sympathy for them being picked on. It's called karma. I won't apologize for something I meant.

It's inflammatory because nothing excuses rape. There's a world of difference between calling someone fat and violating them sexually.

Nothing excuses punching somebody (who isn't harming you or anybody else) either! That's the whole point!

If you truly have "very little sympathy" for people being attacked just because they may or may not have done something that was "stereotypically gay" (leave alone the fact that you haven't even articulated why that would be "obnoxious" to begin with), then you deserve every bit of scorn that's been directed at you here.


At what point are you going to stop acting like being bullied and being assaulted are synonymous. When I was in school I cannot think of a single person who was assaulted as a form of bullying. Does it happen? Of course. Are bullying and assault the same thing? No. I do not and have not excused assault. If someone is an obnoxious twat, I have less sympathy for him being called fatty though. Should still be punished, but I don't care as much.

Arklop: He specifically said a list of actions and then a set of actions, but he has yet to name a single one of these actions. Why? Why not just one? One item on your list. Just one.

I told you why. Because it was a ridiculously loaded question trying to force me to say I think all gays act like , which is not even remotely close to what I said. I said a list of actions and a set of actions. What were they describing? Adam accused me of saying a set of actions that described "what we act like". That's not what I said. When you can ask a question without it being loaded, then I'll answer it.

adamgreeney: You said a certain set of behaviors bothered you, and that if this kid acted that way, maybe not acting that way would lead to not being bullied. What are those behaviors?

You're getting there. So close! I said "Maybe the kid is just annoying." I then also gave an example of what annoys. I did NOT say those things are the way the kid was acting. Would you like to know what the stereotype I find annoying when people act like it is? Ask me that. Just stop pretending I said "all gays act like X" or "if you act like Y you deserve to be bullied!" or "bullying is okay" or whatever other words you want to put in my mouth. I'm leaving soon, so be quick about it.
 
2011-11-02 10:47:20 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: Intentional behaviors that set you apart from the social norms in a direction that is considered undesirable *invite* bullying


Intentional behaviors such as looking or sounding "gay." Logical that.
 
2011-11-02 10:47:23 PM
acting gay was a pretty fast track to getting your ass kicked when i was in school.

i can't imagine it's changed much in 20 yrs.

ANYONE who stands out at that age is gonna get teased and beaten up, swishing around like a lisping sissy-boy is like painting a bulls-eye on yourself.

children are not politically correct, and they never will be.
 
2011-11-02 10:47:31 PM

Arklop: JanusofZeal: I did not say they were a list of actions that describe gay people.

No, you said...

JanusofZeal: I don't have anything against being gay. I have something against people acting like the over the top flamboyantly gay stereotype. It's a list of actions.

You said have something against people acting from a list of actions. What's the list of "over the top flamboyantly gay stereotype" stuff? That's the question I asked you, Mr. Reading Comprehension. Still waiting for an answer.

In addition to being called effeminate, gay men are also identified with a gay lisp and/or a female-like tone and lilt.[26][27] Fashion, effeminacy and homosexuality have long been associated. A stereotype based on the visibility (within popular and consumer culture) of a reciprocal relationship between gay men and fashion; gay men who are visible in popular culture may purchase fashion as a means of expression; and gay men have high visibility within the industry creating fashions.[28] This has become a countertype in recent years with the arrival of mainstream shows such as Queer Eye for the Straight Guy.[29] The "Queer Eye" countertype has been criticized for its use of stereotypes to create a false impression of groundbreaking progress while simply reinforcing old, patronizing identity scripts and convenient generalizations with questionable validity.[30] Designers, including Dolce & Gabbana, have made use of homoerotic imagery in their advertising. Some commentators argue this encourages the stereotype that most gay men enjoy shopping.[31]

 
2011-11-02 10:47:55 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: adamgreeney: JanusofZeal: adamgreeney: See here? Look at the bold part. You are saying the kid might be asking for it by acting a certain way. So how does one need to act to deserve bullying?

See how in all that you just quoted and in all that bolding you did, you did not highlight or find a single part where I said it was okay to bully?
You directly quoted me. Good for you. You did not directly quote anything saying what you claimed I said.
.

You said a certain set of behaviors bothered you, and that if this kid acted that way, maybe not acting that way would lead to not being bullied. What are those behaviors?

Cultural/societal norms are going to be subjective. Some traits are considered desirable while others are considered undesirable (compare playing guitar to playing violin amongst high school kids, or doing gymnastics to skateboarding).

Intentional behaviors that set you apart from the social norms in a direction that is considered undesirable *invite* bullying. That doesn't make it okay, but we live in a less than perfect world.

For example; being really fat makes you a target for bullying.
Being really in shape makes you a target for homecoming king.

(we can argue whether or not being fat is a behavior, but I think you get the gist).

In some cases, it might be easy to change your behavior in such a way that you conform to cultural norms and avoid bullying; rather than changing cultural norms. For example, if I were to wear women's clothing and makeup in high school; people would have made fun of me for it. I could consider *not* wearing women's clothing and makeup in high school to avoid that.

A more practical example is that, when I'm at home I might sit in my underwear and type on my laptop. But at work, I wear business casual clothing.

This doesn't mean I support bullying. Personally, I hate the world bullying because it means too many things. On the 'weak' end of the bullying spectrum you'll simply be unpopular. People won't like you much. There is nothing that will change that. On the far end of bullying you have physical violence and that, regardless of the situation, needs to be addressed severely.

Still, bottom line - it's VERY difficult to change social norms and pretty darn easy to change your behavior in a particular social setting. It's not the only solution but I don't see why it shouldn't be a consideration.


If you and Janus spent half the energy into helping change "social norms" as you have defending yourselves in this thread, it wouldn't be a tough change.

I understand that I won't wake up tomorrow and discrimination will be gone. But we need to teach kids that attack something "different" is never ok. They need to learn to live and let live, not expect someone to change to make them more comfortable.
 
2011-11-02 10:49:09 PM

TheMadChaosopher: acting gay was a pretty fast track to getting your ass kicked when i was in school.

i can't imagine it's changed much in 20 yrs.

ANYONE who stands out at that age is gonna get teased and beaten up, swishing around like a lisping sissy-boy is like painting a bulls-eye on yourself.

children are not politically correct, and they never will be.


Maybe I just went to really good school but I didn't get beaten up at all in high school and I came out extremely early because I didn't realize it was a big thing. And I went to a large public school, not some fancy ass school. I think you guys might just have had really shiatty childhoods.
 
2011-11-02 10:52:38 PM
And children who are bullied for getting good grades should clearly just act more stupid to fit in.
 
2011-11-02 10:52:49 PM
JanusofZeal [TotalFark] Edit/Remove FavoriteAdd Favorite Quote 2011-11-02 06:25:06 PM Edit/unIgnore Ignore
I've got nothing against gay people, but the super flamboyant over the top lisp stereotyped style of gay drives me crazy. It doesn't drive me crazy because it's gay. It drives me crazy because it's annoying. I'd want to punch a straight man in the face for doing it too.

THIS.

I've known some flamboyant gays, and some 'normal' (ie. otherwise thought they were straight) gays. I wonder if the flamboyant gays 'play it up' a lot.
or maybe the 'normal' ones just hide it really well. who knows.

but in any case, i totally agree. the over the top stereotyped style of gay drives me batty too.
 
2011-11-02 10:53:05 PM

m2313: itsdrew: Man, people in this thread have absolutely raped the poor Socratic method.

I think "a raping of the Socratic method" is the definition of a Fark thread in general.


Well maybe if it didn't dress like a slut.
 
2011-11-02 10:53:47 PM

JanusofZeal: At what point are you going to stop acting like being bullied and being assaulted are synonymous. When I was in school I cannot think of a single person who was assaulted as a form of bullying. Does it happen? Of course. Are bullying and assault the same thing? No. I do not and have not excused assault. If someone is an obnoxious twat, I have less sympathy for him being called fatty though. Should still be punished, but I don't care as much.


I'm talking only about what you said, nothing more. Punching a person in the face (again, your own words) is most definitely assault. It might also be bullying depending in the context (such as in the manner described in your comment), but it's not that that would somehow exempt it from being assault.
 
2011-11-02 10:53:56 PM

Third_Uncle_Eno: JanusofZeal [TotalFark] Edit/Remove FavoriteAdd Favorite Quote 2011-11-02 06:25:06 PM Edit/unIgnore Ignore
I've got nothing against gay people, but the super flamboyant over the top lisp stereotyped style of gay drives me crazy. It doesn't drive me crazy because it's gay. It drives me crazy because it's annoying. I'd want to punch a straight man in the face for doing it too.

THIS.

I've known some flamboyant gays, and some 'normal' (ie. otherwise thought they were straight) gays. I wonder if the flamboyant gays 'play it up' a lot.
or maybe the 'normal' ones just hide it really well. who knows.

but in any case, i totally agree. the over the top stereotyped style of gay drives me batty too.


Why do you care? Do masculine females bother you?
 
2011-11-02 10:54:04 PM

adamgreeney: JanusofZeal:

adamgreeney: Also, you keep saying you don't like how we act[1]. How is that[2]? You obviously have a list of things you find annoying and "stereotypical." What is it? And why does it deserve bullying[3]]?
See that first part, the part I labelled 1? Yea, I didn't say it was how "they" act. I said I didn't like actions conforming to the stereotype of a flamboyant over the top gay. I didn't say that's how "they" act. I said I don't like the actions described by a stereotype. If you can't understand the distinction, piss off.
Now for part [2] Since I didn't say "they" acted in any particular way, it's a pretty loaded question. How am I supposed to describe how I think "they" act when I've never claimed that there was a single set of actions that described it nor have I claimed that "they" all act a single way. It's trying to trap me into claiming everyone acts the same. Loaded question.
Finally for part [3] "why does it deserve bullying?" is a pretty loaded question when I never said it deserved bullying. It's right up there with "when did you stop beating your wife?" It doesn't deserve bullying, and I've never claimed otherwise.

So yea, it's a leading bullshiat loaded question attack on me, and I won't answer it. If you'd like to try again, asking whatever question you have without putting words in my mouth or using loaded questions, feel free.

um. . . Read what i said again.

"You obviously have a list of things you find annoying and "stereotypical." What is it?"

Do you understand that question? You said EXACTLY THAT. Leave actual gay people out of it. What is the stereotypical behavior that you dislike in gay and straight people? What were you referring to in your first few posts? I'm asking you to clarify what you said.


Which is something you asked after I'd typed that post. I don't constantly refresh to find the most recent set of loaded bullshiat questions.

Biological Ali: Yes, I know it's there. What we have here, though, is somebody purporting to justify it through argument, as opposed to admitting that there's no rational basis. Personally, none of it makes any sense to me - finding something "obnoxious" for being "stereotypically gay" seems as sensible as picking on somebody for being "stereotypically straight". I'm just not seeing what there is to be upset or offended by to begin with.

You're an idiot, aren't you? There's a rational basis for annoying being annoying. You know what I don't like? I don't like people being a stereotypical straight man either. Chest bumps, crushing beer cans on their head, screaming at a TV with wing sauce on a jersey. I don't think all straight men act like that. If you take that list of actions, and someone can put a check mark next to all of them, I'll find them annoying. It's a set of actions. I'm not saying it's how straight men act. It's shorthand for the list you'd have to check off. It's a lot shorter to say "stereotypical straight man" than
[ ] Stained jersey
[ ] yelling at TV
[ ] drunk
[ ] crushing beer cans on head
[ ] chest bumps

So, since you guys are obviously too dense to get how to ask a not loaded question
"Janus, what's the stereotype that you don't like people acting like?"
"Well, if people act like this stereotype, (new window) they're pretty farking annoying.
 
2011-11-02 10:54:28 PM

Ghastly: m2313: itsdrew: Man, people in this thread have absolutely raped the poor Socratic method.

I think "a raping of the Socratic method" is the definition of a Fark thread in general.

Well maybe if it didn't dress like a slut.


LOL, yeah, it was practically asking for it.
 
2011-11-02 10:54:44 PM

PonceAlyosha: Fark_Guy_Rob: Intentional behaviors that set you apart from the social norms in a direction that is considered undesirable *invite* bullying

Intentional behaviors such as looking or sounding "gay." Logical that.


We don't actually know what behaviors we're talking about; so it's all very hypothetical. We could be talking about disruptive, over-the-top behaviors, or we could be talking about subtle, unintentional behaviors that couldn't possibly be avoided.

I think it's reasonable that, in some cases, particularly the one that caused a professional teacher to say, 'ummm, act less gay' it could have been disruptive, over-the-top behavior that could easily be avoided.

I'll admit, I'm drawing a lot on my own personal experiences in high school. Maybe that isn't fair. I went to a nice public school that had few problems. Bullying was 'name calling' and mostly just being 'unpopular'. The kids that were made fun of did go pretty far out of their way to invite it.
 
2011-11-02 10:56:10 PM

JanusofZeal: adamgreeney: JanusofZeal:

adamgreeney: Also, you keep saying you don't like how we act[1]. How is that[2]? You obviously have a list of things you find annoying and "stereotypical." What is it? And why does it deserve bullying[3]]?
See that first part, the part I labelled 1? Yea, I didn't say it was how "they" act. I said I didn't like actions conforming to the stereotype of a flamboyant over the top gay. I didn't say that's how "they" act. I said I don't like the actions described by a stereotype. If you can't understand the distinction, piss off.
Now for part [2] Since I didn't say "they" acted in any particular way, it's a pretty loaded question. How am I supposed to describe how I think "they" act when I've never claimed that there was a single set of actions that described it nor have I claimed that "they" all act a single way. It's trying to trap me into claiming everyone acts the same. Loaded question.
Finally for part [3] "why does it deserve bullying?" is a pretty loaded question when I never said it deserved bullying. It's right up there with "when did you stop beating your wife?" It doesn't deserve bullying, and I've never claimed otherwise.

So yea, it's a leading bullshiat loaded question attack on me, and I won't answer it. If you'd like to try again, asking whatever question you have without putting words in my mouth or using loaded questions, feel free.

um. . . Read what i said again.

"You obviously have a list of things you find annoying and "stereotypical." What is it?"

Do you understand that question? You said EXACTLY THAT. Leave actual gay people out of it. What is the stereotypical behavior that you dislike in gay and straight people? What were you referring to in your first few posts? I'm asking you to clarify what you said.

Which is something you asked after I'd typed that post. I don't constantly refresh to find the most recent set of loaded bullshiat questions.
Biological Ali: Yes, I know it's there. What we have here, though, is somebody purporting to justify it through argument, as opposed to admitting that there's no rational basis. Personally, none of it makes any sense to me - finding something "obnoxious" for being "stereotypically gay" seems as sensible as picking on somebody for being "stereotypically straight". I'm just not seeing what there is to be upset or offended by to begin with.
You're an idiot, aren't you? There's a rational basis for annoying being annoying. You know what I don't like? I don't like people being a stereotypical straight man either. Chest bumps, crushing beer cans on their head, screaming at a TV with wing sauce on a jersey. I don't think all straight men act like that. If you take that list of actions, and someone can put a check mark next to all of them, I'll find them annoying. It's a set of actions. I'm not saying it's how straight men act. It's shorthand for the list you'd have to check off. It's a lot shorter to say "stereotypical straight man" than
[ ] Stained jersey
[ ] yelling at TV
[ ] drunk
[ ] crushing beer cans on head
[ ] chest bumps

So, since you guys are obviously too dense to get how to ask a not loaded question
"Janus, what's the stereotype that you don't like people acting like?"
"Well, if people act like this stereotype, (new window) they're pretty farking annoying.


Why does their behavior matter to you? It doesnt effect you.
 
2011-11-02 10:56:17 PM
Makes sense because according to hollywierd and the uber rich music types, only kids acting queer get bullied.
 
2011-11-02 10:56:32 PM

JanusofZeal: You're an idiot, aren't you? There's a rational basis for annoying being annoying. You know what I don't like? I don't like people being a stereotypical straight man either. Chest bumps, crushing beer cans on their head, screaming at a TV with wing sauce on a jersey. I don't think all straight men act like that. If you take that list of actions, and someone can put a check mark next to all of them, I'll find them annoying. It's a set of actions. I'm not saying it's how straight men act. It's shorthand for the list you'd have to check off. It's a lot shorter to say "stereotypical straight man" than


I see. And does watching a guy chest-bumping another guy make you want to "punch him in the face" too?
 
2011-11-02 10:57:44 PM
JanusofZeal:You're an idiot, aren't you? There's a rational basis for annoying being annoying. You know what I don't like? I don't like people being a stereotypical straight man either. Chest bumps, crushing beer cans on their head, screaming at a TV with wing sauce on a jersey. I don't think all straight men act like that. If you take that list of actions, and someone can put a check mark next to all of them, I'll find them annoying. It's a set of actions. I'm not saying it's how straight men act. It's shorthand for the list you'd have to check off. It's a lot shorter to say "stereotypical straight man" than
[ ] Stained jersey
[ ] yelling at TV
[ ] drunk
[ ] crushing beer cans on head
[ ] chest bumps

So, since you guys are obviously too dense to get how to ask a not loaded question
"Janus, what's the stereotype that you don't like people acting like?"
"Well, if people act like this stereotype, (new window) they're pretty farking annoying.



Maybe you should take some Valium and learn to live with people who are different from you.

I learned how when I was 5 going on 6. But maybe you're not 5 yet.
 
2011-11-02 10:57:52 PM

TheMadChaosopher: acting gay was a pretty fast track to getting your ass kicked when i was in school.

i can't imagine it's changed much in 20 yrs.

ANYONE who stands out at that age is gonna get teased and beaten up, swishing around like a lisping sissy-boy is like painting a bulls-eye on yourself.

children are not politically correct, and they never will be.


I think you underestimate kids. Racism in schools, for example, seems to have dropped dramatically. We don't have white students protesting and screaming about having to attend the same class with black students.

It's changing for gays too. Gay-Straight Alliance was not something anyone could have dreamed of in the past (even when I went to school), but they're common now.

Most young people are more tolerant than their parents, and as those young people grow up, the cycle continues.
 
2011-11-02 10:58:23 PM

JanusofZeal: Seems reasonable to me. If I was being bullied for being nerdy good advice might be to act less nerdy. It doesn't have to change the fact that I AM nerdy.

Maybe the kid is just annoying. I've got nothing against gay people, but the super flamboyant over the top lisp stereotyped style of gay drives me crazy. It doesn't drive me crazy because it's gay. It drives me crazy because it's annoying. I'd want to punch a straight man in the face for doing it too.

/He'll get over it.


Go fark yourself.

/The proper answer is beat your bully into a bloody pulp or if you are unable befriend a big dude that will beat your bully into a bloody pulp.
 
2011-11-02 10:59:19 PM

JanusofZeal: Just stop pretending I said "all gays act like X"


What you started off with was:

"Seems reasonable to me. If I was being bullied for being nerdy good advice might be to act less nerdy. It doesn't have to change the fact that I AM nerdy.

Maybe the kid is just annoying. I've got nothing against gay people, but the super flamboyant over the top lisp stereotyped style of gay drives me crazy.


This in response to teachers telling students to "act less gay". You appear, note "appear", to assume teachers mean to act less "super flamboyant over the top lisp" when saying "act less gay". Do you not see how someone could draw such a connection?
 
2011-11-02 11:00:44 PM

Biological Ali: And does watching a guy chest-bumping another guy make you want to "punch him in the face" too?


Sometimes actually. Depends on who's chest bumping and what it's over and what state of inebriation the person is in.
To be honest, I find chest bumping more "gay" than a lisp or skinny jeans.
And it usually looks stupid as shiat.
 
2011-11-02 11:00:57 PM

adamgreeney: Fark_Guy_Rob: adamgreeney: JanusofZeal: adamgreeney: See here? Look at the bold part. You are saying the kid might be asking for it by acting a certain way. So how does one need to act to deserve bullying?

See how in all that you just quoted and in all that bolding you did, you did not highlight or find a single part where I said it was okay to bully?
You directly quoted me. Good for you. You did not directly quote anything saying what you claimed I said.
.

You said a certain set of behaviors bothered you, and that if this kid acted that way, maybe not acting that way would lead to not being bullied. What are those behaviors?

Cultural/societal norms are going to be subjective. Some traits are considered desirable while others are considered undesirable (compare playing guitar to playing violin amongst high school kids, or doing gymnastics to skateboarding).

Intentional behaviors that set you apart from the social norms in a direction that is considered undesirable *invite* bullying. That doesn't make it okay, but we live in a less than perfect world.

For example; being really fat makes you a target for bullying.
Being really in shape makes you a target for homecoming king.

(we can argue whether or not being fat is a behavior, but I think you get the gist).

In some cases, it might be easy to change your behavior in such a way that you conform to cultural norms and avoid bullying; rather than changing cultural norms. For example, if I were to wear women's clothing and makeup in high school; people would have made fun of me for it. I could consider *not* wearing women's clothing and makeup in high school to avoid that.

A more practical example is that, when I'm at home I might sit in my underwear and type on my laptop. But at work, I wear business casual clothing.

This doesn't mean I support bullying. Personally, I hate the world bullying because it means too many things. On the 'weak' end of the bullying spectrum you'll simply be unpopular. People won't like you much. There is nothing that will change that. On the far end of bullying you have physical violence and that, regardless of the situation, needs to be addressed severely.

Still, bottom line - it's VERY difficult to change social norms and pretty darn easy to change your behavior in a particular social setting. It's not the only solution but I don't see why it shouldn't be a consideration.

If you and Janus spent half the energy into helping change "social norms" as you have defending yourselves in this thread, it wouldn't be a tough change.

I understand that I won't wake up tomorrow and discrimination will be gone. But we need to teach kids that attack something "different" is never ok. They need to learn to live and let live, not expect someone to change to make them more comfortable.


If you spent half the time you spend finding excuses to be offended on understanding what other people said, this thread wouldn't have been half as long.

I have not, at any point, said that attacking something different is okay. Nothing I have said goes against your "I understand" conclusion. If you went up and actually read through my posts and set aside your bias for a minute, you'd see that all I suggested is that a) the teacher giving the advice may have been giving perfectly legitimate advice and b) acting differently is a stop gap that one can take to protect themselves while we work on the end goal. People need to stop pretending that telling someone to take measures to protect themselves is condoning what they're protecting themselves from.

Telling someone not to where red clothes in a blue gang's territory isn't saying murder or gang violence is okay. It's saying we live in an imperfect world and sometimes you need to take precautions to protect yourself.

Saying some people are obnoxious isn't saying "it's okay to assault people different than you."

Stop taking so much time to be offended. Stop going out of your way to read something that wasn't said. It's freaking ridiculous, and you aren't helping anyone by doing it. Pretending I said bullying is okay doesn't stop bullying. You're not any better than what you're condemning in regards to wasted energy.
 
2011-11-02 11:02:33 PM

JanusofZeal: I told you why. Because it was a ridiculously loaded question trying to force me to say I think all gays act like , which is not even remotely close to what I said. I said a list of actions and a set of actions. What were they describing? Adam accused me of saying a set of actions that described "what we act like". That's not what I said. When you can ask a question without it being loaded, then I'll answer it.



There's nothing at all loaded about me asking you to share an item or two from your list. No one here suggested that you had a list or set of actions for determining flamboyantly gay stereotypes. You said that yourself, in your words, of your own accord. It's been quoted over and over again throughout this thread. And all the denying and dodging and cowardice in the world isn't going to convince anyone that you didn't say those things.

If you're too afraid to explain your list, that's fine. Go be afraid. Piss us a river in your pants. But no more denying what you said or answering questions that no one asked to dodge others we did.
 
2011-11-02 11:03:10 PM

JanusofZeal: Saying some people are obnoxious isn't saying "it's okay to assault people different than you."


You said it as a defense of bullying. You can understand why people would think you are a douchebag. Right?
 
2011-11-02 11:03:21 PM
if you're a kid and you're fat, gay, handicapped, or too tall, short, pale, dark, freckled, skinny, hairy or your thumbs are weird the other kids are gonna bully you.

skipping around lisping and limp-wristing is just asking to get stuffed into a locker.

if my kid was being bullied for being gay i would...

well, i wouldn't have to do anything cuz he's be telling this to his shrink at his orphanage, not to me.
 
2011-11-02 11:04:46 PM

JanusofZeal: adamgreeney: Fark_Guy_Rob: adamgreeney: JanusofZeal: adamgreeney: See here? Look at the bold part. You are saying the kid might be asking for it by acting a certain way. So how does one need to act to deserve bullying?

See how in all that you just quoted and in all that bolding you did, you did not highlight or find a single part where I said it was okay to bully?
You directly quoted me. Good for you. You did not directly quote anything saying what you claimed I said.
.

You said a certain set of behaviors bothered you, and that if this kid acted that way, maybe not acting that way would lead to not being bullied. What are those behaviors?

Cultural/societal norms are going to be subjective. Some traits are considered desirable while others are considered undesirable (compare playing guitar to playing violin amongst high school kids, or doing gymnastics to skateboarding).

Intentional behaviors that set you apart from the social norms in a direction that is considered undesirable *invite* bullying. That doesn't make it okay, but we live in a less than perfect world.

For example; being really fat makes you a target for bullying.
Being really in shape makes you a target for homecoming king.

(we can argue whether or not being fat is a behavior, but I think you get the gist).

In some cases, it might be easy to change your behavior in such a way that you conform to cultural norms and avoid bullying; rather than changing cultural norms. For example, if I were to wear women's clothing and makeup in high school; people would have made fun of me for it. I could consider *not* wearing women's clothing and makeup in high school to avoid that.

A more practical example is that, when I'm at home I might sit in my underwear and type on my laptop. But at work, I wear business casual clothing.

This doesn't mean I support bullying. Personally, I hate the world bullying because it means too many things. On the 'weak' end of the bullying spectrum you'll simply be unpopular. People won't like you much. There is nothing that will change that. On the far end of bullying you have physical violence and that, regardless of the situation, needs to be addressed severely.

Still, bottom line - it's VERY difficult to change social norms and pretty darn easy to change your behavior in a particular social setting. It's not the only solution but I don't see why it shouldn't be a consideration.

If you and Janus spent half the energy into helping change "social norms" as you have defending yourselves in this thread, it wouldn't be a tough change.

I understand that I won't wake up tomorrow and discrimination will be gone. But we need to teach kids that attack something "different" is never ok. They need to learn to live and let live, not expect someone to change to make them more comfortable.

If you spent half the time you spend finding excuses to be offended on understanding what other people said, this thread wouldn't have been half as long.

I have not, at any point, said that attacking something different is okay. Nothing I have said goes against your "I understand" conclusion. If you went up and actually read through my posts and set aside your bias for a minute, you'd see that all I suggested is that a) the teacher giving the advice may have been giving perfectly legitimate advice and b) acting differently is a stop gap that one can take to protect themselves while we work on the end goal. People need to stop pretending that telling someone to take measures to protect themselves is condoning what they're protecting themselves from.

Telling someone not to where red clothes in a blue gang's territory isn't saying murder or gang violence is okay. It's saying we live in an imperfect world and sometimes you need to take precautions to protect yourself.

Saying some people are obnoxious isn't saying "it's okay to assault people different than you."

Stop taking so much time to be offended. Stop going out of your way to read something that wasn't said. It's freaking ridiculous, and you aren't helping anyone by doing it. Pretending I sai ...


You're right. You didn't say bullying was A-ok. But you see the solution as the victim changing their behavior, even when you don't know what the behavior is. My solution is to teach people to not lash out at things they see as different or annoying and to let it slide by. If it doesn't threaten you, why do you care? I think we need to address mentalities like yours who think your advice is sound. Instead of going after the victims behavior, go after the bully. Why isn't that your first reaction?
 
2011-11-02 11:05:15 PM

m2313: Biological Ali: And does watching a guy chest-bumping another guy make you want to "punch him in the face" too?

Sometimes actually. Depends on who's chest bumping and what it's over and what state of inebriation the person is in.
To be honest, I find chest bumping more "gay" than a lisp or skinny jeans.
And it usually looks stupid as shiat.


So clearly you have anger management problems.
 
2011-11-02 11:05:31 PM
So (to all of you that are okay with this) I take it you're fine with a white kid getting the shiat kicked out of himself for acting too white in a school that's, say, 90% black.

JUST QUIT BEING SO WHITE
IT'S NATURAL TO GET BULLIED
 
2011-11-02 11:05:53 PM

TheMadChaosopher: if you're a kid and you're fat, gay, handicapped, or too tall, short, pale, dark, freckled, skinny, hairy or your thumbs are weird the other kids are gonna bully you.

skipping around lisping and limp-wristing is just asking to get stuffed into a locker.

if my kid was being bullied for being gay i would...

well, i wouldn't have to do anything cuz he's be telling this to his shrink at his orphanage, not to me.


So, you would teach your kid to not be himself because...
 
2011-11-02 11:07:03 PM

TheMadChaosopher: if you're a kid and you're fat, gay, handicapped, or too tall, short, pale, dark, freckled, skinny, hairy or your thumbs are weird the other kids are gonna bully you.

skipping around lisping and limp-wristing is just asking to get stuffed into a locker.

if my kid was being bullied for being gay i would...

well, i wouldn't have to do anything cuz he's be telling this to his shrink at his orphanage, not to me.



I dunno. Him killing you seems kind of harsh.
 
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