I didn't know fetuses could talk.

Fetus don't fail me now!

Why did the fetus plead insanity?

Fetus?

Abortions ARE murder, only people can plea in court.

Full-term fetus? I'm as pro-choice as the next girl but if it's full-term, it's really just a baby in waiting.

Fox is JUST getting the masses outraged over this one now? It broke about a month ago...

This is what the law has come down to. For defending yourself against an attack, your only hope of survival is to plead insanity.

It was two versus one. I suppose she was just supposed to lay down and take it. That's the sane thing to do.

The Onion is prophetic: Silly subby... people are placed in solitary confinement. Everyone knows that fetii aren't people.

/grabs popcorn

Here we go

Aidan: Full-term fetus? I'm as pro-choice as the next girl but if it's full-term, it's really just a baby in waiting.

I like to draw the line when they can coherently explain to me why I *shouldn't* kill them.

One fetus is called a feti. A herd of fetuses is called.....

Pretending a fetus is human...

But we do live in a world where people "reason" with their "gut feelings" rather than with facts and logic.

I'm still waiting to see a doctor charged for murder after removing and disposing of a cancerous tumor.

Jim Panse: he whole deal. Remove all warning labels, remove restrictions on weapons and explosives, drugs, everything. Abolish the police. Repeal all consumer safety laws, let tobacco companies run smoking campaigns in schools and give out booze in the cafeterias.

You remind me of George Carlin. I like you.

Fetus, please.

BishopHatto: One fetus is called a feti. A herd of fetuses is called.....

In this case, a murder. Just like crows.

BishopHatto: One fetus is called a feti. A herd of fetuses is called.....

A dollhouse.

/Some friends came up with that one in high-school during a rainy lunch.

TheMadChaosopher: we need to know if the mother wanted the baby before we can decide on how to react.

if the mother didn't want the fetus then it's just a clump of cells and this is all just very convenient.

if the mother wanted the fetus then it's still just a clump of cells that will gradually become a sentient human being.

FTFY

BishopHatto: One fetus is called a feti. A herd of fetuses is called.....

An Octomom?

namegoeshere: BishopHatto: One fetus is called a feti. A herd of fetuses is called.....

In this case, a murder. Just like crows.

Win for lulz.

threadjackistan: A dollhouse.

Win for farking creepy. Love it.

bk3k: But we do live in a world where people "reason" with their "gut feelings" rather than with facts and logic.

Thomas Sowell much? :-)

"The problem isn't..." (new window)

Read the headline in cockney. Felt better.

X1's Here: Backstory: She kidnapped a pregnant woman, beat her in the head, choked her, then attempted to cut the fetus out, the way she saw it done on a TV show. She threw the woman in the basement, and called an ambulance to help her with "her newborn baby"....and when it became obvious that the baby wasn't hers, the police were called.
Why did she do this? Because her boyfriend wanted children and she cannot conceive.

So one of those "my life in womanhood isn't complete unless I somehow have a BABY" types. I get sick of people like that, who somehow feel that only a baby will do..... there are millions of children who need homes. But I guess they're not as cute and easy to deal with

It was self defense.

Greenlighting this one is like shouting 'Can you dig it?' in a ruffian-filled park.

jsnbase: Greenlighting this one is like shouting 'Can you dig it?' in a ruffian-filled park.

Indeed.

TheMadChaosopher: we need to know if the mother wanted the baby before we can decide on how to react.

if the mother wanted the fetus than it's a baby and it's just terrible.

if the mother didn't want the fetus than it's just a clump of cells and this is all just very convenient.

This.

I don't understand how an additional murder charge can be applied in these types of cases. If its a fetus, then another murder charge is BS.

I believe its a baby, so I think the charge is always warranted.

Abortion is a tragedy for all involved.

Even without a hot pic, would not hit it, don't want.

TheMadChaosopher: bk3k: TheMadChaosopher: we need to know if the mother wanted the baby before we can decide on how to react.

if the mother didn't want the fetus then it's just a clump of cells and this is all just very convenient.

if the mother wanted the fetus then it's still just a clump of cells that will gradually become a sentient human being.

FTFY

are you suggesting that a fetus is a HUMAN!?

you know this is FARK, right?

I do believe you are misunderstanding what I am saying. A fetus is not the same as you and me. It is not a fully formed, self-aware entity. Its a damn clump of biomass that is only following chemical instructions. Eventually though, it can become human. Its not instant like the foolish "upon conception" people believe, but rather a gradual process.

Overfiend: I believe its a baby, so I think the charge is always warranted.

Your BELIEFS are not rooted in FACT. Its not a baby. A walnut is not a tree either, even after having been planted for a few days. There is no magic, no miracle here. Its biology. This is exactly why your BELIEFS should never be LAW.

Overfiend: Abortion is a tragedy for all involved.

No it isn't. Thanks for playing.

Then again I suppose you could tell me that deoxyribonucleic acid - when arranged in certain specific configurations - is sacred. I guess I will have no counter-arguments for that...

bk3k: Your BELIEFS are not rooted in FACT. Its not a baby. A walnut is not a tree either, even after having been planted for a few days. There is no magic, no miracle here. Its biology. This is exactly why your BELIEFS should never be LAW

The only thing that makes the baby not human in the eyses of the law is that he/she is still in the womb. A human with a heartbeat and brain waves outside the womb is a human and alive in the eyes of the law.
It's biology.

X1's Here: Backstory: She kidnapped a pregnant woman, beat her in the head, choked her, then attempted to cut the fetus out, the way she saw it done on a TV show. She threw the woman in the basement, and called an ambulance to help her with "her newborn baby"....and when it became obvious that the baby wasn't hers, the police were called.
Why did she do this? Because her boyfriend wanted children and she cannot conceive.

Yeah, like she's really going to get away with an insanity defense. I got both of my kids that way. You'd understand if you had to brood one of those damn parasites.

But babies are the most precious thing on earth.

cryinoutloud: But babies are the most precious thing on earth.

But not by rarity. :P

xxdonjulioxx: bk3k: Your BELIEFS are not rooted in FACT. Its not a baby. A walnut is not a tree either, even after having been planted for a few days. There is no magic, no miracle here. Its biology. This is exactly why your BELIEFS should never be LAW

The only thing that makes the baby not human in the eyses of the law is that he/she is still in the womb. A human with a heartbeat and brain waves outside the womb is a human and alive in the eyes of the law.
It's biology.

Hate to tell you this, but the law is seldom written with any scientific conclusion in mind. More often, it is written despite what science would tell us, and in favor of people who make emotional knee jerk reactions. "A human with a heartbeat and brain waves" is a perfect example of your bias. See some people might think that being human involves a little more than a few chunks of flesh that begin to operate the way they are programmed.

A fully developed lizard has all of those things that you insist make one a human - in a greater and more functional capacity than the developing fetus. That does not make them a human. Nor does the fact that a fetus's deoxyribonucleic acid is arranged in a pattern similar to yours make them human. Monkeys - as it is commonly known - share almost all of the same DNA you and I do. They are not ~99% human however.

Oh an archeologist might later on identify them as human should they be found. But being human is so much more than are physiology. Think about this, you could have a heart condition that means your heart will fail. You might then get a pig/baboon/whatever heart transplant. I suppose from a genetic perspective, you are a little less human on average. But like I said, humans are so much more. You would be the same person as ever, just as human.

Your view of what constitutes a human, IMO diminishes the value of what it means to be human. I also consider you to be more important than a million fetuses.

You are a human.
You are here now.
You exist.
You feel.
You think.
You have memories.
You have things you love, things you hate.
You have things you treasure, and things you despise.
You have things that you may feel the need to fight for and protect
You also have something to loose aside from a mere biological definition of your life.
You are not a blank slate.
You are a real person.

You are made up of cells. You are a collection of chemicals. You are a biological machine. Yet you are so much more than the sum of your parts.

bk3k: Pretending a fetus is human...

But we do live in a world where people "reason" with their "gut feelings" rather than with facts and logic.

I'm still waiting to see a doctor charged for murder after removing and disposing of a cancerous tumor.

I'm waiting to see a cancerous tumor with a heartbeat and brain.

cryinoutloud: But babies are the most precious thing on earth.

Can't be, otherwise why would people sell them for other things?

xxdonjulioxx: bk3k: Pretending a fetus is human...

But we do live in a world where people "reason" with their "gut feelings" rather than with facts and logic.

I'm still waiting to see a doctor charged for murder after removing and disposing of a cancerous tumor.

I'm waiting to see a cancerous tumor with a heartbeat and brain.

Here you go:

bk3k: TheMadChaosopher: bk3k: TheMadChaosopher: we need to know if the mother wanted the baby before we can decide on how to react.

if the mother didn't want the fetus then it's just a clump of cells and this is all just very convenient.

if the mother wanted the fetus then it's still just a clump of cells that will gradually become a sentient human being.

FTFY

are you suggesting that a fetus is a HUMAN!?

you know this is FARK, right?

I do believe you are misunderstanding what I am saying. A fetus is not the same as you and me. It is not a fully formed, self-aware entity. Its a damn clump of biomass that is only following chemical instructions. Eventually though, it can become human. Its not instant like the foolish "upon conception" people believe, but rather a gradual process.

Overfiend: I believe its a baby, so I think the charge is always warranted.

Your BELIEFS are not rooted in FACT. Its not a baby. A walnut is not a tree either, even after having been planted for a few days. There is no magic, no miracle here. Its biology. This is exactly why your BELIEFS should never be LAW.

Overfiend: Abortion is a tragedy for all involved.

No it isn't. Thanks for playing.

Then again I suppose you could tell me that deoxyribonucleic acid - when arranged in certain specific configurations - is sacred. I guess I will have no counter-arguments for that...

I am sorry you feel this way.

Not to worry though, God forgives you.

xxdonjulioxx: bk3k: Pretending a fetus is human...

But we do live in a world where people "reason" with their "gut feelings" rather than with facts and logic.

I'm still waiting to see a doctor charged for murder after removing and disposing of a cancerous tumor.

I'm waiting to see a cancerous tumor with a heartbeat and brain.Suppose science helped this to occur...?

The reason that it never really does, is that the cancer will consume all resources in the body in order to grow as quickly as possible. The cancer therefore will starve out the host and thus kill it. Cancer occurs because of STEM CELLS(tell me if that term seems familiar) begin rapidly multiplying in an adult. When this process occurs in the womb, we call it pregnancy. The growth will receive a regulated supply of nutrients thanks to the umbilical cord. Thus, the host(mother) need not die.

Crocodiles do not EVER get cancer. Why? They lay eggs, and do not grow inside the mother. Therefore the genes which cause cancer are not present.

I should note that entire human limbs have been found inside of some of the larger tumors removed from people. Yes, if you took that "little miracle" inside of your uterus, and put it somewhere else in your body that allowed unrestricted blood flow, it would kill you exactly like a tumor.

I imagine a scientist probably could - had they the drive to do such a crazy thing - manage to take a tumor and bring it to term. That would technically be cloning though. Hell, I'd like to see it just to watch the outrage.

bk3k: xxdonjulioxx: bk3k: Your BELIEFS are not rooted in FACT. Its not a baby. A walnut is not a tree either, even after having been planted for a few days. There is no magic, no miracle here. Its biology. This is exactly why your BELIEFS should never be LAW

The only thing that makes the baby not human in the eyses of the law is that he/she is still in the womb. A human with a heartbeat and brain waves outside the womb is a human and alive in the eyes of the law.
It's biology.

Hate to tell you this, but the law is seldom written with any scientific conclusion in mind. More often, it is written despite what science would tell us, and in favor of people who make emotional knee jerk reactions. "A human with a heartbeat and brain waves" is a perfect example of your bias. See some people might think that being human involves a little more than a few chunks of flesh that begin to operate the way they are programmed.

A fully developed lizard has all of those things that you insist make one a human - in a greater and more functional capacity than the developing fetus. That does not make them a human. Nor does the fact that a fetus's deoxyribonucleic acid is arranged in a pattern similar to yours make them human. Monkeys - as it is commonly known - share almost all of the same DNA you and I do. They are not ~99% human however.

Oh an archeologist might later on identify them as human should they be found. But being human is so much more than are physiology. Think about this, you could have a heart condition that means your heart will fail. You might then get a pig/baboon/whatever heart transplant. I suppose from a genetic perspective, you are a little less human on average. But like I said, humans are so much more. You would be the same person as ever, just as human.

Your view of what constitutes a human, IMO diminishes the value of what it means to be human. I also consider you to be more important than a million fetuses.

You are a human.
You are here now.
You exist.
You feel.
You think.
You have memories.
You have things you love, things you hate.
You have things you treasure, and things you despise.
You have things that you may feel the need to fight for and protect
You also have something to loose aside from a mere biological definition of your life.
You are not a blank slate.
You are a real person.

You are made up of cells. You are a collection of chemicals. You are a biological machine. Yet you are so much more than the sum of your parts.

You moved from a biological argument(albeit flawed) to a philosphical one.
Please explain the difference between a full term fetus, and a newborn biologically to me. Is the womb and umbilical cord the only difference?

Overfiend: I am sorry you feel this way.

Not to worry though, God forgives you.

Oh... forgives me for what exactly? For supporting abortion? You mean that thing that is not Biblically forbidden in the slightest despite HUNDREDS of commands(not only 10)? The thing that is actually performed in Numbers 5 as a matter of Hebrew law concerning unfaithful wives? Or do you consider it covered under "murder" even though this is NEVER stated in The Bible? Even though a fetus and a living human are clearly differentiated in Exodus?

A man who beats a pregnant woman(that is not his wife) and causes her to loose her fetus must merely pay the fine(money, 2 sheep etc) demanded of him by her husband(if married, else her family). But a man who does this and kills the mother too - eye for an eye. Of course if you kill anyone - eye for an eye. But killing the unborn... a fine? No eye for an eye? If a fetus where really a human in accordance with Biblical Law... this would play out much different.

This is Hebrew law handed down from God. No where in The Bible is this "upon conception" garbage mentioned. God did breath into Adam the breath of life though. The first breath... this is the only mention of when God might impart man a soul. Birth has always traditionally been the day that all Xian religions celebrate the start of life. The stuff you believe is actually a much newer belief. Your great great great grandfather NEVER heard anything of the sort.

If you believe that abortion is murder, then you are not believing this from Biblical teachings. A belief commonly held by Christians and an actual Christian belief... totally different things my friend. Christian beliefs can come no where but from scripture. Your belief is SECULAR.

So tell my why would God forgive my beliefs... instead of your own? Perhaps a NEOChristian should instead ask for their own forgiveness?

This whole thing would be laughable if it wasn't so widespread.

bk3k: I imagine a scientist probably could - had they the drive to do such a crazy thing - manage to take a tumor and bring it to term. That would technically be cloning though. Hell, I'd like to see it just to watch the outrage.

Apparantly biology is not your thing

xxdonjulioxx:
You moved from a biological argument(albeit flawed) to a philosophical one.
Please explain the difference between a full term fetus, and a newborn biologically to me. Is the womb and umbilical cord the only difference?

Oh not much. But I don't think merely having the biology complete makes one all that special. The biggest difference at that exact moment is really going to be people's emotional attachment to seeing it. I cannot see a newborn quite as being quite as important as a more mentally developed being with a personality.

The baby removed from the womb develops rapidly. Its a learning computer at this point and is absorbing alot more information than you realize. It will rapidly become sentient bit by bit. Becoming truly human is not a binary thing. It is a transformation over time. It happens so fast though, that you can easily miss it. There probably is not a solid line in the sand that divides between one is biologically alive and a self aware human.

About laws with attacking pregnant women though, adding an additional murder charge to even a full term soon to give birth mother doesn't really make sense. The mother is in most cases the target, and the pregnancy would only be collateral damage. The two are not really separable. It is not really possible to fatally attack the mother yet not cause an indirect threat to the pregnancy - since that is totally reliant on the mother for life at that point.

It is not a "baby" until viability.

End of line.

Before that it is pre-baby. Baby in development. I'd call it a fetus but that word is politically co opted. It's "human" sure, but it's not a "person" until it has the potential to be out in the world and RECOGNIZED AS A PERSON.

Besides, your OPINION has NOTHING to do with a stranger's health care. You jerks. Push your morality elsewhere.

xxdonjulioxx: bk3k: I imagine a scientist probably could - had they the drive to do such a crazy thing - manage to take a tumor and bring it to term. That would technically be cloning though. Hell, I'd like to see it just to watch the outrage.

Apparently biology is not your thing

So you claim. Although cancer is somewhat the result of a malfunction often caused by chemical damage. Yet the biological process is not as different as you might think.

The reason I brought it up in the first place, is to highlight the absurdity of claiming that a tumor is human and therefore sacred. This is in light contrast to a pregnancy. I guess you missed the point.

bk3k: Even though a fetus and a living human are clearly differentiated in Exodus?


Er, I'm not saying abortion is specifically prohibited by the hebrew scripture, but the word used for the unborn in EX 21 (which I assume you're referring to above), "yeled", is the same word used for child, and it's translated as "fruit" in both uses. So I'm pretty sure you're wrong that they were differentiated, because the same word is used for both, which is kind of the opposite of "differentiated". Also, the word you claim is "miscarriage" is actually "yatsa", meaning "come out", which is also used in the context of "give birth", so again, I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this specific point. I still don't see, other than "Do no murder", a specific prohibition on abortion in the hebrew scripture, though. (whether "do no murder" applies to the unborn is of course not immediately obvious from context)

Ringshadow: It is not a "baby" until viability.

End of line.

Before that it is pre-baby. Baby in development. I'd call it a fetus but that word is politically co opted. It's "human" sure, but it's not a "person" until it has the potential to be out in the world and RECOGNIZED AS A PERSON.

Besides, your OPINION has NOTHING to do with a stranger's health care. You jerks. Push your morality elsewhere.

viabilty is at 26 weeks according to neurologists.