Let me repost what I said on GameFAQs...

industry analyst
"Oh, a BULLSHIAT artist!" (new window)

Mike_LowELL: Oh, and it wouldn't hurt the admins to link to the primary source. I know G4 paid Drew good money for the ad space, but G4 is just copying what they saw on another site.

like they always have

SnarfVader: Oh, I see. No more used game sales. This is a big flip of the bird to GameStop but really sucks for the end consumer. In the future, we will have to download several gigs of data for each game pushing against the caps already imposed by the likes of Comcast. God forbid you have multiple consoles, buy more than a few games in a month, stream movies as your primary source of entertainment, or want to buy it used. Too bad. Suck it Consumer.

And they certainly won't drop the price in light of the inflexibility, inconvenience and reduced costs due to not needing discs.

Baryogenesis: SnarfVader: Oh, I see. No more used game sales. This is a big flip of the bird to GameStop but really sucks for the end consumer. In the future, we will have to download several gigs of data for each game pushing against the caps already imposed by the likes of Comcast. God forbid you have multiple consoles, buy more than a few games in a month, stream movies as your primary source of entertainment, or want to buy it used. Too bad. Suck it Consumer.

And they certainly won't drop the price in light of the inflexibility, inconvenience and reduced costs due to not needing discs.

Hey, there's like 10 hours of game playing entertainment in there! Wouldn't you pay $60 for 10 glorious hours of entertainment? I know I would.

I heard Diablo VI was going to just be girls sauntering around in one square inch of latex. No quests, no monsters. You can't even download it. It'll be mail order and you have to share with your younger brother, no backtalk.

This sucks for people who don't have a constant internet connection. Winter storms where I live constantly knock out the local ISP, or bring it to a stuttering halt. I do not buy video games that require constant internet connection because of it unless I understand that the game is only to be played that way.

Single player games that require internet connection to make sure I don't pirate them are the fastest way for a game developer to tell me that they don't want my money.

/play the hell out of Minecraft for a reason during the winter months
//would have bought BF3 but there's no way I'm paying that much cash for a game that's that buggy

Uh huh. People said physical media was dead five years ago. Streaming is inching up on DVD and BluRay, but it's hardly taking over.

Baryogenesis: And they certainly won't drop the price in light of the inflexibility, inconvenience and reduced costs due to not needing discs.

If you're not the type to want a game on launch day, there are lots of spiffy sales on Steam. I can't wait to see what they're offering on Black Friday.

moothemagiccow: I heard Diablo VI was going to just be girls sauntering around in one square inch of latex. No quests, no monsters. You can't even download it. It'll be mail order and you have to share with your younger brother, no backtalk.

Sounds very interesting!!!! Even more so since google hit nothing about it.... Can i give you my credit card details now to ensure I get the pre-order? Will all the runewords be the same? How about the secret cow level?

/fanboy

lewismarktwo: Hey, there's like 10 hours of game playing entertainment in there! Wouldn't you pay $60 for 10 glorious hours of entertainment? I know I would.

To be fair, GTA is wayyyyyyyyy longer than 10 hours (helps if you do side missions and other small things).

I Like Bread: Uh huh. People said physical media was dead five years ago. Streaming is inching up on DVD and BluRay, but it's hardly taking over.

Baryogenesis: And they certainly won't drop the price in light of the inflexibility, inconvenience and reduced costs due to not needing discs.

If you're not the type to want a game on launch day, there are lots of spiffy sales on Steam. I can't wait to see what they're offering on Black Friday.

i don't often buy on launch day, i buy clearance at target and other retail. the thing is, nothing ever gets as low in walled gardens as it does on the market especially on consoles...

MS never gives ANY sort of deal on xbl. sometimes they offer half-off the full price of a game, like 2 years later, and only for a limited time. (those idiots could be making more money following the actual value of the games.)

anyway, I picked up 2 copies GTA4 for 10 bucks a piece (THEN i found out there was no REAL multiplayer)

i'll buy GTA5 when it is 10 bucks, it never will be if it is download only.

GTA IV lost the crown to Saints Row 2.

Wonder if SR3 is going to blow it two weeks from now.

/debating whether to trade a bunch of crap in for it or wait for it to be on sale on steam -- after hearing the word on the street.
//playing BF3 when it will let me.

I Like Bread: Baryogenesis: And they certainly won't drop the price in light of the inflexibility, inconvenience and reduced costs due to not needing discs.

If you're not the type to want a game on launch day, there are lots of spiffy sales on Steam. I can't wait to see what they're offering on Black Friday.

Yeah, I don't mind download only when it's steam giving me a 6 pack of games for 15 dollars.

Still no RDR on steam eh? That's a shame, I'd have liked to play that game in its proper glory. Rockstar games are just sad looking in the console's sub 720p resolutions and hamstrung hardware abilities. GTA4 was stunning once it was off that leash, bet RDR would be the same way.

/Glorious PC gaming master race

SnarfVader: Oh, I see. No more used game sales.

Companies like GameStop & Game have had far too much power in the distribution chain for far too long. From exclusive DLC's (which may or may not be game breakingly good) through to the recent escapade of stopping Steam from carrying the game Space Marine (a SteamWorks DRM game) or they were going to yank every THQ title from their shelves; for Americans going "Whu?" they did this in the UK, only digital place to buy the game is/was Gamers Gate.

Publishers have wanted to figure out how to do the second hand market for a while, like any company they want their pound of flesh and they can't exactly charge £200 for a new set of roof seals like Toyota can with their cars. But these distributers have cock blocked it whilst devoting ever more shelf space to the more profitable second hand goods.

The recent shiat of selling second hand 3DS units on launch day and the whole ripping the OnLive voucher out of Deus Ex thing have rather broken the camels back; publishers and hardware makers will now deal with the problem.

Welcome to the crossfire.

SnarfVader: Oh, I see. No more used game sales. This is a big flip of the bird to GameStop but really sucks for the end consumer. In the future, we will have to download several gigs of data for each game pushing against the caps already imposed by the likes of Comcast. God forbid you have multiple consoles, buy more than a few games in a month, stream movies as your primary source of entertainment, or want to buy it used. Too bad. Suck it Consumer.

if it's done like steam, it's better for the consumer in the end

unfortunately we're talking about microsoft, nintendo and sony here... where the benefit will be negligible over physical copies

An open note to the video games industry from America's servicemembers. Hi! We are the guys an gals that pack up all our stuff and go all around the world to other countries to do the nation's bidding. We are voracious consumers of video games because although firefights are exciting, the military is also about a lot of waiting for stuff to happen. We take our systems, our consoles and handhelds our laptops, with us when we deploy to give us a little taste of home and a way to escape the reality of our situation.

We also travel to parts of the world WHERE THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE DIAL-UP. So if your product requires an always on connection, you have just alienated a large game buying segment of your audience. If I need a firmware update to play your game and you didn't include it on the disk, you screwed over your customer. If your software has zero-day bugs but you shipped assuming that you could "just patch it" your customers will remember. And if you provide a digital download service that doesn't allow my wife to download a game file onto a memory card and mail it to me in Afghanistan because you assume everyone in the world has always-on broadband speed internet connections? You have obviously forgotton what the concept of "Portable Gaming" is.

/Don't screw the PS Vita up Sony!

My console just doesn't have enough room for this kind of thing. This is a bad trend, and yes its designed to keep picking your pockets. $60 isn't enough for these game companies.

Grand Theft 5 would be way too big to download. Big mistake if they do this.

Olympus Mons: My console just doesn't have enough room for this kind of thing. This is a bad trend, and yes its designed to keep picking your pockets. $60 isn't enough for these game companies.

Grand Theft 5 would be way too big to download. Big mistake if they do this.

The theoretical size of this game would be 16 - 30Gb in size. Even 2.5" drives are at the level where you can have several such sized games and a multitude of smaller titles loafing around.

Either way you are going to need a bigger HDD on your 360. Although the hypothetical game might be for a hypothetical system not yet announced. Hypothetically.

Bleh. It's too big, I don't want it on my HD. That's for saves, arcade games, and limited DLC.

Even now I won't download all of the New Vegas DLC, because it would just eat up too much space. Plus they'll release an edition with all of the dlc on it for like $30 right after I get done paying for all of it.

sarah_t_s: Olympus Mons: My console just doesn't have enough room for this kind of thing. This is a bad trend, and yes its designed to keep picking your pockets. $60 isn't enough for these game companies.

Grand Theft 5 would be way too big to download. Big mistake if they do this.

The theoretical size of this game would be 16 - 30Gb in size. Even 2.5" drives are at the level where you can have several such sized games and a multitude of smaller titles loafing around.

Either way you are going to need a bigger HDD on your 360. Although the hypothetical game might be for a hypothetical system not yet announced. Hypothetically.

Pretty much every ISP caps you at 250gb a month. If you have a few people on one connection using a lot of tubes, that cap is hittable. Downloading a few games at ~25gb a game will get you there quicker.

Hard drive space is still an issue. The first gen 360's had only 20gig of room (granted most of those are now in landfills) but they also have new ones with only 4gig. Also lots of 60 gig PS3's out there. With a game as big as GTA it's just not practical to download for many people. Ultimately choosing download only format would result in a large chunk of lost sales.

Download only is strictly a next gen possibility.

GimletDeuce: /Don't screw the PS Vita up Sony!

You know they will. It's what they do. They do it on purpose to try and establish their new hardware as the industry standard. It didn't work for UMDs or MiniDisc, it did work for BlueRay. MemoryStick had limited success, only because of Sony cameras.

Dafatone: Pretty much every ISP caps you at 250gb a month. If you have a few people on one connection using a lot of tubes, that cap is hittable. Downloading a few games at ~25gb a game will get you there quicker.

Then you need better ISP's really don't you? It's not like this digital distribution thing has come from nowhere and is a major surprise to anyone that it's becoming more popular.

sarah_t_s: Dafatone: Pretty much every ISP caps you at 250gb a month. If you have a few people on one connection using a lot of tubes, that cap is hittable. Downloading a few games at ~25gb a game will get you there quicker.

Then you need better ISP's really don't you? It's not like this digital distribution thing has come from nowhere and is a major surprise to anyone that it's becoming more popular.

A better ISP would be nice. Too bad they don't exist where I live

Mugato: They're doing this so they can ship sooner

That may be one aspect, but it also reduces their production and distribution costs somewhat and, more importantly, completely short circuits the used game market.

The hierarchy for why big game makers do anything goes:

1: We're dumb enough to think our buggy DRM (which breaks the game for half the players) will stop pirates THIS time for sure!
2: It screws over the used game market
3: It lets us repackage shiat we already had ready at launch as purchasable DLC instead
4: It reduces our costs in some ways which increases our margins because you know damn well we aren't passing the savings on
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999,431: it's beneficial for the consumer

/ mostly stopped playing games anymore

last seen sitting smugly with his hands folded at his desk.

SnarfVader: Oh, I see. No more used game sales. This is a big flip of the bird to GameStop but really sucks for the end consumer. In the future, we will have to download several gigs of data for each game pushing against the caps already imposed by the likes of Comcast. God forbid you have multiple consoles, buy more than a few games in a month, stream movies as your primary source of entertainment, or want to buy it used. Too bad. Suck it Consumer.

They might think this is a good idea now, but If they aren't getting ripped off by Gamestop via resale and all the idiotic gimmicks that company demands, then they'll just be getting ripped off by the CC companies and banks who'll start charging console producers/content providers new "fees" for the use of their transfer services just as they have to brick and mortar retailers for decades. Not only will they not increase their profit margins in the long term with dl only, but by switching to such a system they naturally cut themselves off from profits via cash-paying customers which, in turn, will encourage the thing they want lease; purchase-replacement piracy. If Gamestop's business model is the problem, then the proper response is to stop doing business with Gamestop.

PanicMan: GimletDeuce: /Don't screw the PS Vita up Sony!

You know they will. It's what they do. They do it on purpose to try and establish their new hardware as the industry standard. It didn't work for UMDs or MiniDisc, it did work for BlueRay. MemoryStick had limited success, only because of Sony cameras.

what on earth are you talking about? The PSV doesn't have any format Sony is trying to make a standard. It's got a flash bashed card for games, and another for saves/dlc/etc.

the only thing sony is trying to make standard across multiple devices is the PlayStation suite framework for android game development. and that's a software platform, rather then hardware.

Overall, the PSV is looking amazingly solid.

As for the article? No way in hell. Rockstar is not going to force everyone to spend a few hours downloading a 10-30 gig game on each platform. Not when they are sure to sell millions of physical copies.

I Like Bread: Uh huh. People said physical media was dead five years ago. Streaming is inching up on DVD and BluRay, but it's hardly taking over.

Baryogenesis: And they certainly won't drop the price in light of the inflexibility, inconvenience and reduced costs due to not needing discs.

If you're not the type to want a game on launch day, there are lots of spiffy sales on Steam. I can't wait to see what they're offering on Black Friday.

Yup. Physical media and sales will not wither until there is a network in place that can guarantee quick, easy, and seamless connectivity in all the major markets, persistently. Even then I doubt the effect he predicts would result; Japan has just such a national network, and brick-and-mortar retailing continues to do alright.

Practical_Draconian: GTA IV lost the crown to Saints Row 2.

Wonder if SR3 is going to blow it two weeks from now.

/debating whether to trade a bunch of crap in for it or wait for it to be on sale on steam -- after hearing the word on the street.
//playing BF3 when it will let me.

There are videos up for Saint's Row 3 now, I think Gametrailers or something had the first hour. Looks like fun to me, don't know what the word on the street is.

I'm betting Volition will have a parody of the GTAV trailer within 24 hours of it going on live on the net.

As for GTAV being digital only, the analyst must be desperate for page views because that's retarded. Rockstar has always tried to make sure that even the DLC for different games they publish is made available at retail.

I wonder if they're going to continue to snub PC gamers.

Splinshints: Mugato: They're doing this so they can ship sooner

That may be one aspect, but it also reduces their production and distribution costs somewhat and, more importantly, completely short circuits the used game market.

The hierarchy for why big game makers do anything goes:

1: We're dumb enough to think our buggy DRM (which breaks the game for half the players) will stop pirates THIS time for sure!
2: It screws over the used game market
3: It lets us repackage shiat we already had ready at launch as purchasable DLC instead
4: It reduces our costs in some ways which increases our margins because you know damn well we aren't passing the savings on
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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999,431: it's beneficial for the consumer

/ mostly stopped playing games anymore

Coincidentally, your number 4 up there is probably the most wide-spread and significant problem in US business culture, and the US economy. Savings never get passed on to the consumer (meaning prices rarely fall meaning relative cost of living never goes down), the higher ups idiotically "economize" their companies into inefficiency in pursuit of bonuses, then have no idea how to respond when they -inevitably- find themselves in trouble due to their own systemic dismantling of company infrastructure.

It even causes industry-wide problems; since the 90s, on-release game prices have risen from $30 to $60(with $70 even popping up on occasion). Has the cost of producing games risen by a similar percentage over that time? That cannot have been good for increasing the pop% that plays computer games.

I hope Rockstar doesn't dick around and wait to release the PC version farther down the road AND half-ass it like they did with the initial version of GTA IV.


/I loves my modding.
//1.5hrs till the trailer as of this post

Heron: causes industry-wide problems; since the 90s, on-release game prices have risen from $30 to $60(with $70 even popping up on occasion). Has the cost of producing games risen by a similar percentage over that time? That cannot have been good for increasing the pop% that plays computer games.

Uhhh... where were you buying games for $30 in the 90s? Video games have ALWAYS been in the $50-60 range, and I clearly remember buying Super Mario Brothers 3 at a Prange Way when it launched for $80.

Mr.Poops: Heron: causes industry-wide problems; since the 90s, on-release game prices have risen from $30 to $60(with $70 even popping up on occasion). Has the cost of producing games risen by a similar percentage over that time? That cannot have been good for increasing the pop% that plays computer games.

Uhhh... where were you buying games for $30 in the 90s? Video games have ALWAYS been in the $50-60 range, and I clearly remember buying Super Mario Brothers 3 at a Prange Way when it launched for $80.

Funny, I haven't bought a video game for more then 40$ in about the last three years.
/Steam, their sales and the 'not AAA' game developers are all far better options then counter metal field 18 or whatever just came out

Heron: It even causes industry-wide problems; since the 90s, on-release game prices have risen from $30 to $60(with $70 even popping up on occasion). Has the cost of producing games risen by a similar percentage over that time? That cannot have been good for increasing the pop% that plays computer games

Games were not $30 in the '90s, and development costs have risen by a much greater percentage.

^^ Er sorry, meant to quote the same one you did.

Heron: Splinshints: Mugato: -snip-
Coincidentally, your number 4 up there is probably the most wide-spread and significant problem in US business culture, and the US economy. Savings never get passed on to the consumer (meaning prices rarely fall meaning relative cost of living never goes down), the higher ups idiotically "economize" their companies into inefficiency in pursuit of bonuses, then have no idea how to respond when they -inevitably- find themselves in trouble due to their own systemic dismantling of company infrastructure.

It even causes industry-wide problems; since the 90s, on-release game prices have risen from $30 to $60(with $70 even popping up on occasion). Has the cost of producing games risen by a similar percentage over that time? That cannot have been good for increasing the pop% that plays computer games.

This argument is mostly fallacious for a couple reasons:
1) Yes the cost of production has risen dramatically. Those 1080p graphics and minute detail and individual renders of millions of small interactable objects costs a TON of money to produce. Whether or not the production costs have grown significantly enough to "justify" the increased price in your mind is another debate entirely. Regardless, this entire point is moot because...
2) Cost is a minority factor in market price.
3) The potential savings that could be passed on to you would be barely noticeable, if at all, and could be better used elsewhere by the publisher/developer.

Consider for a moment that Random Game Company X is going to produce a game they will sell at $40 per copy and they predict they will sell 500,000 copies (and stipulate for a moment that they do indeed sell exactly 500,000 copies for the sake of argument). Those sales will generate $20M in revenue whether or not the game cost $19.9M to make or just $1M. The truth is there is typically a minimum ROI required to get that level of funding - often in the 18-25% range (remember we're talking minimum ROI here). If RGCX is looking for a 20% ROI that means the total cost to produce the game can be no more than a $16.6M budget with $20M in expected revenues ($3.4M/$16.6M*100% = 20.5%). If digital distribution lets you save 5% of your total budget then you pocket $830,000 in savings. That $830k can buy an awful lot of QA time or other improvements (additional art assets, more render time, additional features, bonus levels/maps,etc..) to the game. While it is unlikely in today's markets that a large publicly traded corporation (e.g. Activision, EA, etc..) would reinvest in the product given a highly-predictable revenue figure (they'd rather capture the additional ROI), smaller publishers, independent developers, and publishers releasing a new IP will often choose to make the reinvestment to generate good publicity/reviews and good will with gamers. Alternatively, if they were to distribute that savings back out to the consumer those 500,000 copies sold would see a total discount of $1.60 (4% of the game's agreed-to price). I've never seen anyone quibble about whopping $1.60 when making a $40 purchase.

Complaining that you aren't seeing a price decrease with every little efficiency improvement just doesn't make sense. It's more beneficial for you, the consumer, for the company to reinvest the money into the product your buying. Now, if you want to complain about the publishers not making the decision to reinvest in their products that's a wholly different discussion.

akula: However, download only games are coming, and for the reasons stated in this thread.

When many regions of the world (i.e. most metropolitan areas of Canada) are crippling their internet connections with throttled speeds and extremely low (average of
The existence of low caps alone virtually necessitates a brick and mortar solution.

Hold on, hold on, hold on. Besides all of the ridiculous problems with download-only games (limited console storage, required connectivity, etc etc), am I still the only one that just likes collecting? With shelves? Or am I getting too old?

I don't like looking at games as ineffable and disposable, for the same reasons I don't like that for books and movies (aside from a select few that really are pulpy and disposable). I've got a large shelf unit of books (technically, it's way past overflowing and I need a second one), a large shelf unit of DVD's, VHS and BluRay, and yet another with my games stretching from NES and Master System to my PS3 and PC. (Also a smaller but no less beloved collection of CD's and vinyl.) I like flipping through old books and playing old games, and my wife will watch movies over and over again (I have less of a tolerance for movie re-watching, but...)

And I don't have to contact the publisher to re-read an older book. I don't need internet connectivity or a new license to play Super Mario 3. I don't need the approval or support or permission of anyone to enjoy my own stuff.

It's not like things like Netflix or Steam don't have their purpose, they do- but if I'm flipping through Netflix and I see a movie that I know I'll want to watch over again in the future, or maybe somewhere with more internet, or maybe even just display it on the damn shelf, I want a physical copy. To me, my Collector's Edition of Mass Effect 2 on the shelf has that same passive shelf-based value as my vinyl Dark Side of the Moon, or my signed copy of Salman Rushdie's "Enchantress of Florence".

Olympus Mons: My console just doesn't have enough room for this kind of thing. This is a bad trend, and yes its designed to keep picking your pockets. $60 isn't enough for these game companies.

Grand Theft 5 would be way too big to download. Big mistake if they do this.

I regularly download 360 games on demand and have not had a problem. Red Dead Redemption was like 7 gigs. The 360 games average 6-8 gigs. I own a 60 gig hd and have ~6 games I juggle casually, as many xbla titles (750 mb-1.5 gb), and a bit of media on the side.

Inconvenient to purchase extra memory on the side but its common. If they could figure out secondhand market on this all digital doesn't seem all that much of a stretch.

/fu k requiring net connection for single player though

Heron:
It even causes industry-wide problems; since the 90s, on-release game prices have risen from $30 to $60(with $70 even popping up on occasion). Has the cost of producing games risen by a similar percentage over that time? That cannot have been good for increasing the pop% that plays computer games.

Yes. Probably a lot more than that, actually, but the sales numbers have gone up a lot, too, so it's made up in volume.

I mean, there are exceptions, but those exceptions are things like Cthulhu Saves the World and sell for two bucks, not sixty.