This isn't about about where these kids' parents are from. This is about universities becoming cash whores instead of institutions of higher learning. They'd fark over the rich white kids even more quickly if they thought they could get away with it.

Higher education is a racket.

They could give them in-state rates, if they rat out their parents to INS...

It's a bad law. The students are clearly American citizens and should have the rights available to all citizens, including in-state tuition for the state of their residence.

However, it wouldn't be too bad to require that the parents present themselves to local authorities, since except in the case of an emancipated child the parents' incomes are used to calculate the amount of aid the student will receive.

Catch and deport the illegal parents. Give in-state tuition to the student, with an extra bonus in aid because the parents cannot help to support the child. It seems like a win-win all around.

Bladel: This was the next logical step in the immigration debate: Targeting people who are barely Citizens.

Is that like "a little bit pregnant" or "mostly dead"?

I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Florida: "Due to your parents being illegal immigrants, we're going to have to charge you out-of-state tuition." Student: "But I was born in the US and I live in Florida." Florida: "So?" "Consider yourself lucky you aren't deported, too."

FTFT

calm like a bomb: They'd fark over the rich white kids

implying that they don't already?

untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more?

mekkab: calm like a bomb: They'd fark over the rich white kids

implying that they don't already?

Not as much. Rich white kids typically have options, and if one place gets a reputation for too much farkery, they'll go elsewhere.

untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Alright there Hiemline, what criteria do you propose?

The Onanist: untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Because of the 14th Amendment, that's why.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

That's not a reason. I already knew we did it because it's the law. What I'm saying is that I don't understand the reasoning behind the law.

sendbillmoney: untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more?

Depends - am I in the book, which was terrific, or the movie, which was terrible?

untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

It's in the Constitution. The Founding Fathers thought it was a good idea. I don't think anyone here is qualified to say they weren't correct.

Cerebral Knievel: untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Alright there Hiemline, what criteria do you propose?

Simple - everyone takes the same citizenship test we currently use to grant citizenship to people who weren't born here.

The Onanist: untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Because of the 14th Amendment, that's why.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

It was written to guarantee citizenship to slaves, who until that time were treated as chattel.

A byproduct was that any Jose Garcia and Sue Wong could now be born into citizenship without any real tie to the country except for their birthplace. It has been used as a means to bypass the existing standard immigration methods and is an affront to all immigrants and naturalized citizens who followed the standard path.

untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Automatic citizenship according to relatively simple criteria is a feature not an oversight. It keeps the fickle whims of politics and the tyranny of the majority out of one the most basic foundations of republicanism. Imagine if an ornery Congress was able to strip you of your citizenship simply because you were black or gay. Imagine the loopholes, judicial headache, and sheer chaos of establishing whether individuals had performed their civic duty in order to earn citizenship.

You're born here, you're a citizen. Simple and sweet and no power on earth can take it away save amending the Constitution.

/Would you like to know more citizen?

Anchor co-eds.

/Giggity

untaken_name: Cerebral Knievel: untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Alright there Hiemline, what criteria do you propose?

Simple - everyone takes the same citizenship test we currently use to grant citizenship to people who weren't born here.

In case you have an hour to spare. Here's the test:

Link (new window)

untaken_name: Cerebral Knievel: untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Alright there Hiemline, what criteria do you propose?

Simple - everyone takes the same citizenship test we currently use to grant citizenship to people who weren't born here.

Crap - I've got to start studying!

AverageAmericanGuy:
It's a bad law. The students are clearly American citizens and should have the rights available to all citizens, including in-state tuition for the state of their residence.

It's all according to how you read the loopholes.

It sounds like (though they don't cover it in the story) she's still listed as a tax dependent of her parents on school paperwork. This means she can't get in-state tuition unless the parents have lived in the state for at least a year. Since they can't prove legal residence (because they weren't), the tuition rate defaults to out-of-state. She could avoid the whole issue by declaring herself (a US citizen) independent of her parents, then living in Florida for a year as such.

Bureaucratic? Yeah. Dumb? Sorta. But that's what happens when you make the in-state/out-of-state tuition categories so different in costs, and make it a major source of funding for state-funded schools. If they make it much easier to get in-state tuition, a lot of colleges are going to take huge budget hits.

Minimally Hairy Beer-Powered Simian: untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

It's in the Constitution. The Founding Fathers thought it was a good idea. I don't think anyone here is qualified to say they weren't correct.

Um, it was in an amendment, it was bitterly contested, and it took martial law to pass it. But whatever you say, sparky. Also, it was passed in the 1860s, which is just a bit past the time of the Founding Fathers, but again, whatever you say, sparky.

The Onanist: Because of the 14th Amendment, that's why.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

Interesting historical tid-bit: that was written by Sen. Jacob M. Howard of Michigan. During the original congressional debate, he elaborated the meaning here:

This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers....

Although that differs from current interpretation, it was apparently the intent at the time the 14th amendment was written.

AverageAmericanGuy: untaken_name: Cerebral Knievel: untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Alright there Hiemline, what criteria do you propose?

Simple - everyone takes the same citizenship test we currently use to grant citizenship to people who weren't born here.

In case you have an hour to spare. Here's the test:

Link (new window)

Missed three...

Guess that means I have leave.

A jihad on you!

Coastalgrl: Higher education is a racket.

Once they realized they could be "for profit" the whole head went into the cookie jar. I would love for student financial aide to be restricted to non-profit and state run institutions only.

And for Universities to tear down old, non-salvageable buildings and replace them with new construction.

An example of a conversation of why they don't:

Admin: So-so went to school in that very building (glimmer of nostalgia and new students with tuition for him to spend).

Me: I don't care who learned in this building, you are not going to be able to run modern wiring inside of full brick construction without bulkheads.

Admin: We will loose too much space if we have those.

Me: You don't want to loose the space? Then tear it down and build something from this century that looks like the old one and name it after the dead old dude.

Admin: Fine. Hey, look at these tiles we picked out for the floor in the whole building. All three floors will have it including the handicap ramps and stairs.

Me: Why the hell do you need designer tile for a cafeteria?!

Admin: We want the students to eat here on campus rather then in the restaurants around town. It is cutting into our housing budget too much.

Me: Maybe if the didn't food not cost more then eating out and was actually edible they would stay on campus for meals.

Admin: That would cost too much money. We need to have money to remodel this building.

Me: I am moving off campus.

\sorry, had to rant on this
\\the only thing that place was good for was spending my tuition on things outside my major

untaken_name: Cerebral Knievel: untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Alright there Hiemline, what criteria do you propose?

Simple - everyone takes the same citizenship test we currently use to grant citizenship to people who weren't born here.

you would have to deport 7/8,s of the population if that was the case

AverageAmericanGuy: The Onanist: untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Because of the 14th Amendment, that's why.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

It was written to guarantee citizenship to slaves, who until that time were treated as chattel.

A byproduct was that any Jose Garcia and Sue Wong could now be born into citizenship without any real tie to the country except for their birthplace. It has been used as a means to bypass the existing standard immigration methods and is an affront to all immigrants and naturalized citizens who followed the standard path.

And this was discussed quite a bit when they debated the amendment. Their result was that it was better to err on the side of giving citizenship to those who did not "deserve" it (whatever the hell that means) than to deny it to people who do. Unfortunately today we are too quick to draw lines that remove rights from those on the margins and fringes, afraid to do too much rather than too little. Today the line seems to be more an accident of birth = scum of the earth rather than "all men are created equal."

AverageAmericanGuy:

In case you have an hour to spare. Here's the test:

Link (new window)

There would be a lot fewer Republican voters :-)

/imagining Bubba trying to figure out what a "Bill of Rights" is
//there are some good decoy answers which are quite true in fact, like "What is the rule of Law? c. The Government doesn't have to obey the law"

AverageAmericanGuy: A byproduct was that any Jose Garcia and Sue Wong could now be born into citizenship without any real tie to the country except for their birthplace. It has been used as a means to bypass the existing standard immigration methods and is an affront to all immigrants and naturalized citizens who followed the standard path.

I consider it no more an affront than marrying for a green card. I also see little point in punishing the child for the sins of the parents. If you were born here, lived here, went to school here, and know no other way of life, do you think we should deport them just because their parents were here illegally? I know there are people who have kids here and go back to their own countries, but if you simply remove birthright citizenship entirely, that would be the impact.

Put another way: removing birthright citizenship would essentially make it a crime to be born here to illegal immigrants.


On an unrelated note:

As a good student, Ruiz qualifies for scholarships. Paying out-of-state tuition rates may slow her down, but she expects eventually to fulfill her dream of becoming a podiatrist.

Who dreams of becoming a podiatrist?

The Madd Mann: Put another way: removing birthright citizenship would essentially make it a crime to be born here to illegal immigrants.

So?

AverageAmericanGuy: untaken_name: Cerebral Knievel: untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Alright there Hiemline, what criteria do you propose?

Simple - everyone takes the same citizenship test we currently use to grant citizenship to people who weren't born here.

In case you have an hour to spare. Here's the test:

Link (new window)

92 of 96 - I pass!

(also I still maintain that I'm right on at least one of the "incorrect" ones.)

AverageAmericanGuy: The Madd Mann: Put another way: removing birthright citizenship would essentially make it a crime to be born here to illegal immigrants.

So?

So unlike on the Klingon home world where the son shares culpability in the crimes of his father, we humans do things differently.

/sheesh

untaken_name: Minimally Hairy Beer-Powered Simian: untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

It's in the Constitution. The Founding Fathers thought it was a good idea. I don't think anyone here is qualified to say they weren't correct.

Um, it was in an amendment, it was bitterly contested, and it took martial law to pass it. But whatever you say, sparky. Also, it was passed in the 1860s, which is just a bit past the time of the Founding Fathers, but again, whatever you say, sparky.

One of the intended features of our Constitution was that it could be amended. The Founding Fathers knew that the document might need revision as time went on and placed a method for doing so right in the original document. It does have side effects (see Prohibition) that were not intended, but for the most part has worked out well (see Amendments 1-10, 13-15, 19, and 24: you have to be a troll to say these were bad moves). With the method in place for getting an amendment ratified a lot of political bodies across the entire nation have to pass it. Debated as it was, the 14th passed Congress, was signed by the President, and then ratified by the state legislatures.

\unless you were trolling in which case you get a 9/10

SmitetheRighteous: AverageAmericanGuy: The Madd Mann: Put another way: removing birthright citizenship would essentially make it a crime to be born here to illegal immigrants.

So?

So unlike on the Klingon home world where the son shares culpability in the crimes of his father, we humans do things differently.

/sheesh

And by being here illegally, wouldn't the child be breaking the same laws as the parent?

Cerebral Knievel: untaken_name: Cerebral Knievel: untaken_name: I've never understood why we give citizenship to people just for being born. I don't care if your parents are citizens or not, citizenship shouldn't just be given to whomever, willy-nilly.

Alright there Hiemline, what criteria do you propose?

Simple - everyone takes the same citizenship test we currently use to grant citizenship to people who weren't born here.

you would have to deport 7/8,s of the population if that was the case

Um, why? Where would you deport them to? You don't have to be a citizen to LIVE here. "Citizen" is only one of the legal classifications of persons in this country.

gozar_the_destroyer: Debated as it was, the 14th passed Congress, was signed by the President, and then ratified by the state legislatures.

You forgot to add in the part where they had to declare martial law to make it happen. Just like when they "preserved" the Union in the WoNA. Because nothing says "democracy" like declaring martial law in order to make a specific change to the law of the land.

SmitetheRighteous: AverageAmericanGuy: The Madd Mann: Put another way: removing birthright citizenship would essentially make it a crime to be born here to illegal immigrants.

So?

So unlike on the Klingon home world where the son shares culpability in the crimes of his father, we humans do things differently.

/sheesh

Qapla'

jshine: This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners ...

Lol wut?

untaken_name: gozar_the_destroyer: Debated as it was, the 14th passed Congress, was signed by the President, and then ratified by the state legislatures.

You forgot to add in the part where they had to declare martial law to make it happen. Just like when they "preserved" the Union in the WoNA. Because nothing says "democracy" like declaring martial law in order to make a specific change to the law of the land.

OK, now I know you are trolling when you said WoNA. We still have nuts in the north like Sherman and we will unleash them on the first sign of armed rebellion. Keep that in mind and take your federal funding for your state programs.



Don't make him declare martial law to collect your whiskey tax.

\putting down rebellion is one of the jobs of the government
\\some government are better at it then others