I love watching the invisible hand of the free market slapping down bigots when they get exactly what they voted for.

And thousands of jobs will go unfilled food will rot on the vine, houses will go unbuilt, buildings uncleaned. IT will be lovely.

hubiestubert: Good. If you REALLY want to take on illegal labor practices, you have to go after the folks who hire illegal labor. Dry up the jobs, and folks are going to have to compete fairly, and you will see less folks rolling across the border illegally.

You'll also see prices skyrocket. Usually, a raise in worker wages doesn't affect prices that much, but this raise is so great (even if it's just from what they're paying illegals and minimum wage) you'll see it.

How dare they be born outside the US! We should increase the price of everything and lower overall wealth of society to stop them from making themselves better.

coco ebert: He probably has a point in that he is most likely being made an example of. If the government were to actually do this on a massive scale, it would lead to economic crises in many regions. I'm not arguing one way or another here, but many industries in this country depend on illegal labor.

Then it's time for those industries to evolve or die.

/Hey, if the righties want to get rid of illegals, they'll reap what they sow...or leave it out in the fields to rot.

hubiestubert: Good. If you REALLY want to take on illegal labor practices, you have to go after the folks who hire illegal labor. Dry up the jobs, and folks are going to have to compete fairly, and you will see less folks rolling across the border illegally.

There WILL be a period of adjustment as folks adjust, but the only way to take on illegal labor practice is to go after the folks who control the supply of labor. Dry up the supply, and you won't have a pool of illegal laborers, and folks will go elsewhere to work.

Pretty much this.

It's time for american food industryIlGreven: coco ebert: He probably has a point in that he is most likely being made an example of. If the government were to actually do this on a massive scale, it would lead to economic crises in many regions. I'm not arguing one way or another here, but many industries in this country depend on illegal labor.

Then it's time for those industries to evolve or die.

/Hey, if the righties want to get rid of illegals, they'll reap what they sow...or leave it out in the fields to rot.

Exactly! If the american food industry can't adapt to the free market then the american people deserve to starve to death due to food shortages!

It is the invisible hand which is drawing the illegals here, the invisible hand can make them leave too. And levying fines is cheaper than rounding them all up.

But we need to have the fines come on slowly, quarter after quarter. As the fine goes up more and more businesses will decide that paying a decent wage is a better plan than hiring illegal.

Give the market time to adjust itself. Markets do not like sharp sudden changes to conditions.

coco ebert: He probably has a point in that he is most likely being made an example of. If the government were to actually do this on a massive scale, it would lead to economic crises in many regions. I'm not arguing one way or another here, but many industries in this country depend on illegal labor.

This is extremely true, and I hope these punitive measures on the employers don't apply to small-time guys like this while ignoring meatpacking facilities, Cintas, and the like.

The law under which he was charged seems to be a recent one, and I'd like to know more about the wording. TFA says: "his misdemeanor illegal-hiring conviction," and "felony charge of conspiring to harbor illegal immigrants," which seems to be a ridiculous discrepancy. I wonder what local/county/state level these charges are on.

Us food will never be able to match prices of foreign food if forced to pay higher wages to local workers, who most likely wouldn't even work for that price.

Knight of the Woeful Countenance: I love watching the invisible hand of the free market slapping down bigots when they get exactly what they voted for.

huh? who is the bigot here?

I see there was a guy how tried to exploit cheap labor, but the libs seem fine with employing illegal immigrants because they are afraid of having $5 lettuce

Cat With Two Heads: The law under which he was charged seems to be a recent one, and I'd like to know more about the wording. TFA says: "his misdemeanor illegal-hiring conviction," and "felony charge of conspiring to harbor illegal immigrants," which seems to be a ridiculous discrepancy. I wonder what local/county/state level these charges are on.

TFA: Ivan Hardt, president of Sun Dry Wall & Stucco Inc. of Sierra Vista, faces up to six months in jail for his misdemeanor illegal-hiring conviction. He will be sentenced Jan. 26 in U.S. District Court.

I'm thinking the charges might have been federal. Of course, this is from Arizona, so the only reason he got charged is so Obama can say the Arizona immigrantion law was unneccesary. Or at least that what I'm sure will pop up somewhere in the thread.

Karac: I'm thinking the charges might have been federal. Of course, this is from Arizona, so the only reason he got charged is so Obama can say the Arizona immigrantion law was unneccesary. Or at least that what I'm sure will pop up somewhere in the thread.

Does pre-empt like this ever prevent or does it just give them ideas?

relcec:
I love watching liberals sell their soul and start screaming about the free market when anyone talks about enforcing the law and increasing working class wages by lowering the labor supply in the low skill labor market.

Someone's gonna have to translate the derp on this one for me. I'm not sure I understand what exactly you're driving at.

I think what you're saying is, because Republicans passed draconian illegal immigration policies which are now being enforced on said Republican business owners, this will somehow lower labor supply in the labor market? Why, it's almost as if that bootstrappy business owner will have to offer a more competitive wage to bring wages up to the level that a modern American worker demands...

tenpoundsofcheese:

huh? who is the bigot here?

I see there was a guy how tried to exploit cheap labor, but the libs seem fine with employing illegal immigrants because they are afraid of having $5 lettuce

you're a special kind of dumb, aren't you? "I see there was a guy how tried to exploit cheap labor..." did the principle caughtsayof too?

Call an ambulance, cause you're writing like you just had a stroke buddy.

Knight of the Woeful Countenance: Call an ambulance, cause you're writing like you just had a stroke buddy.

Nah, that's easily within the realm of drunk typing. Hell, that could even be "blackout drunk typing" -- I know, I've read some of the things I've written to my ex while drunk that I have no memories of writing.

You're the jerk... jerk: How dare they be born outside the US! We should increase the price of everything and lower overall wealth of society to stop them from making themselves better.

I assume that you also absolutely despise minimum wage laws then?

/we can't get rid of illegals because higher wages will cause the economy to collapse and prices will skyrocket!
//we should require some minimum wage to help workers out, it won't hurt the economy or cause prices to increase.
/// you can believe one of these statements. Not both at the same time.

Karac: I'm thinking the charges might have been federal.

According to Wikipedia, a trial can be changed from state court to federal district court, "In other words, a plaintiff can choose to bring these cases in either a federal district court or a state court." (new window)

So that really doesn't help us understand where the charges originated. But you're right, it is possible they were brought by the federal government.

relcec: You're the jerk... jerk: How dare they be born outside the US! We should increase the price of everything and lower overall wealth of society to stop them from making themselves better.



yeah, about that bullshiat you're spewing...



http://viet-studies.info/kinhte/Immigrant_Borjas_WSJ.pdf (new window)


[cafehayek.com image 244x527]

/I love when you guys start talking about the great effects of lowering wages on america's economy. the desperation smells like victory.

Good thing food is the only industry where immigrants compete with local labor and therefore your page has proven everything I said wrong.

On your second post:
Obviously immigration lowers wages, it also lowers prices and increases overall production. You are increasing the supply of labor, look at a supply and demand curve and see what happens when you increase the supply. Overall the impact is positive for most people including the immigrants who therefore demand more goods and services inside the US.

Here, read some of these (new window)

watson.t.hamster: You're the jerk... jerk: How dare they be born outside the US! We should increase the price of everything and lower overall wealth of society to stop them from making themselves better.

I assume that you also absolutely despise minimum wage laws then?

/we can't get rid of illegals because higher wages will cause the economy to collapse and prices will skyrocket!
//we should require some minimum wage to help workers out, it won't hurt the economy or cause prices to increase.
/// you can believe one of these statements. Not both at the same time.

I disagree with minimum wage laws. But I wouldn't say despise them, I think they are bad economically and unfairly keep some jobs out of the market. However, unlike immigration laws they aren't based on some ridiculous notion that being born inside the US makes you better than someone born elsewhere.

Are there a lot of people who want open borders and support a minimum wage?

May I suggest a 1 for 1 program where we exchange out all our unemployable (we'll tell them they've won a trip to Cancun or something) for some of the skilled labor that's coming into the country? A skilled harvester or builder is worth much more to us as a society than someone skilled at making baby and living off public assistance.

It does seem a little one sided though. Maybe they'll be up for accepting two for each laborer in return then.

Hopefully the illegals were deported as well.

Cat With Two Heads: coco ebert: He probably has a point in that he is most likely being made an example of. If the government were to actually do this on a massive scale, it would lead to economic crises in many regions. I'm not arguing one way or another here, but many industries in this country depend on illegal labor.

This is extremely true, and I hope these punitive measures on the employers don't apply to small-time guys like this while ignoring meatpacking facilities, Cintas, and the like.

The law under which he was charged seems to be a recent one, and I'd like to know more about the wording. TFA says: "his misdemeanor illegal-hiring conviction," and "felony charge of conspiring to harbor illegal immigrants," which seems to be a ridiculous discrepancy. I wonder what local/county/state level these charges are on.

this guy's problem is that he can't afford make the kind of political donations that, say, Tyson or Cargill can.

You're the jerk... jerk: watson.t.hamster: You're the jerk... jerk: How dare they be born outside the US! We should increase the price of everything and lower overall wealth of society to stop them from making themselves better.

I assume that you also absolutely despise minimum wage laws then?

/we can't get rid of illegals because higher wages will cause the economy to collapse and prices will skyrocket!
//we should require some minimum wage to help workers out, it won't hurt the economy or cause prices to increase.
/// you can believe one of these statements. Not both at the same time.

I disagree with minimum wage laws. But I wouldn't say despise them, I think they are bad economically and unfairly keep some jobs out of the market. However, unlike immigration laws they aren't based on some ridiculous notion that being born inside the US makes you better than someone born elsewhere.

Are there a lot of people who want open borders and support a minimum wage?

It's hard to fit immigration into the traditional right-left moulds. I favor tighter enforcement on the hiring side, i.e., exactly what Obama is doing. I think punitive actions against the immigrants themselves are unproductive. And I favor not only the minimum wage, but a living wage.

You're the jerk... jerk: watson.t.hamster: You're the jerk... jerk: How dare they be born outside the US! We should increase the price of everything and lower overall wealth of society to stop them from making themselves better.

I assume that you also absolutely despise minimum wage laws then?

/we can't get rid of illegals because higher wages will cause the economy to collapse and prices will skyrocket!
//we should require some minimum wage to help workers out, it won't hurt the economy or cause prices to increase.
/// you can believe one of these statements. Not both at the same time.

I disagree with minimum wage laws. But I wouldn't say despise them, I think they are bad economically and unfairly keep some jobs out of the market. However, unlike immigration laws they aren't based on some ridiculous notion that being born inside the US makes you better than someone born elsewhere.

Are there a lot of people who want open borders and support a minimum wage?

If I own a house that doesn't make me better than everyone else, but I do get to determine who steps foot in it.

Sgygus 2011-10-29 01:20:31 PM
unfairly singled out

Can't argue with that.

Try that defense when you get your next speeding ticket.
Doesn't matter if everyone in the whole world is doing it. If you're doing it, you broke the law, and you're going DOWN.

Huh.

You'd think the government would butt out and the free market would plot the best course?

It's almost as if these people like regulations...

watson.t.hamster: You're the jerk... jerk: watson.t.hamster: You're the jerk... jerk: How dare they be born outside the US! We should increase the price of everything and lower overall wealth of society to stop them from making themselves better.

I assume that you also absolutely despise minimum wage laws then?

/we can't get rid of illegals because higher wages will cause the economy to collapse and prices will skyrocket!
//we should require some minimum wage to help workers out, it won't hurt the economy or cause prices to increase.
/// you can believe one of these statements. Not both at the same time.

I disagree with minimum wage laws. But I wouldn't say despise them, I think they are bad economically and unfairly keep some jobs out of the market. However, unlike immigration laws they aren't based on some ridiculous notion that being born inside the US makes you better than someone born elsewhere.

Are there a lot of people who want open borders and support a minimum wage?

If I own a house that doesn't make me better than everyone else, but I do get to determine who steps foot in it.

It is cool though, I in fact did invite the immigrants in.

Hold on, I will be right back there is a guy with redish skin at my door asking me why I think I "own" the US?

You're the jerk... jerk: watson.t.hamster: You're the jerk... jerk: watson.t.hamster: You're the jerk... jerk: How dare they be born outside the US! We should increase the price of everything and lower overall wealth of society to stop them from making themselves better.

I assume that you also absolutely despise minimum wage laws then?

/we can't get rid of illegals because higher wages will cause the economy to collapse and prices will skyrocket!
//we should require some minimum wage to help workers out, it won't hurt the economy or cause prices to increase.
/// you can believe one of these statements. Not both at the same time.

I disagree with minimum wage laws. But I wouldn't say despise them, I think they are bad economically and unfairly keep some jobs out of the market. However, unlike immigration laws they aren't based on some ridiculous notion that being born inside the US makes you better than someone born elsewhere.

Are there a lot of people who want open borders and support a minimum wage?

If I own a house that doesn't make me better than everyone else, but I do get to determine who steps foot in it.

It is cool though, I in fact did invite the immigrants in.

Hold on, I will be right back there is a guy with redish skin at my door asking me why I think I "own" the US?

Careful with that argument, it's an antique.

And as a democracy (constitutional republic, whatever) we ought to make laws that are supported by and benefit the majority.

Non-citizens don't get a vote. That is true in every democracy.


/really why does the US get to make any laws, shouldn't we be subject to the crown? Because legal and political situations never ever change and we are eternally beholden to historic norms!

You're the jerk... jerk: watson.t.hamster: You're the jerk... jerk: watson.t.hamster: You're the jerk... jerk: How dare they be born outside the US! We should increase the price of everything and lower overall wealth of society to stop them from making themselves better.

I assume that you also absolutely despise minimum wage laws then?

/we can't get rid of illegals because higher wages will cause the economy to collapse and prices will skyrocket!
//we should require some minimum wage to help workers out, it won't hurt the economy or cause prices to increase.
/// you can believe one of these statements. Not both at the same time.

I disagree with minimum wage laws. But I wouldn't say despise them, I think they are bad economically and unfairly keep some jobs out of the market. However, unlike immigration laws they aren't based on some ridiculous notion that being born inside the US makes you better than someone born elsewhere.

Are there a lot of people who want open borders and support a minimum wage?

If I own a house that doesn't make me better than everyone else, but I do get to determine who steps foot in it.

It is cool though, I in fact did invite the immigrants in.

Hold on, I will be right back there is a guy with redish skin at my door asking me why I think I "own" the US?

The immigrants were invited in when the house was still under construction. We all had a job to do building that house. Party's over now. You wanna help clean up, fix the holes in the walls- you can stay. You wanna just poke around my fridge and eat all the snacks and expect to do nothing in return? The door is over there- don't let it hit you in the back of the head on your way out.

This applies to the "local" moochers as well.

relcec: You're the jerk... jerk: How dare they be born outside the US! We should increase the price of everything and lower overall wealth of society to stop them from making themselves better.



yeah, about that bullshiat you're spewing...



http://viet-studies.info/kinhte/Immigrant_Borjas_WSJ.pdf (new window)


[cafehayek.com image 244x527]

/I love when you guys start talking about the great effects of lowering wages on america's economy. the desperation smells like victory.

That was very informing.

coco ebert: He probably has a point in that he is most likely being made an example of. If the government were to actually do this on a massive scale, it would lead to economic crises in many regions. I'm not arguing one way or another here, but many industries in this country depend on illegal labor.

Just like some industries depend on coke and heroin.