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(Mediabistro)   A band of Marine brothers storm Reddit to voice their anger at the life-threatening injury inflicted by Oakland police on their brother, 24-year-old Iraqi war veteran Scott Olsen   (mediabistro.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, Scott Olsen, selfishness, Iraqis, Iraq War, Oakland  
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21814 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Oct 2011 at 2:17 PM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-10-28 11:02:30 PM  
I work in Ogawa Plaza where this all happened, and I've been out there most evenings, supporting the occupation. There was, of course, no call for the violence that occurred on the night in question. Those who would say otherwise are of the teanderthal variety, and seriously need to re-think their position.

I actually have some sympathy for the Oakland Police Department. They work one of the most dangerous cities in the world, and the worst of what happened the other night was at the hands of just a few. I've spoken to many officers there, and some have said that they, too, support the occupation. If anyone is to be held responsible for the violence, it's the mayor and chief of police. If they can identify which officers fired upon a veteran, and those who sought to help him, then they should be brought to justice. If they close ranks, well then, I will no longer give the Oakland police any respect.

I'm hoping this movement goes to the next level, and people start taking their money out of the big banks and join credit unions. That should get the message across just fine.
 
2011-10-28 11:05:17 PM  

wingnutx: Aigoo: The problem I'm having with that is... if he actually did piss hot (for cocaine, not pot), then how did he end up with a good job that made him a major part of their current IT strategy? I've known people who pissed hot - yes, for cocaine - and they couldn't get anywhere near the kind of job this kid got.

No employer has ever asked to look at my DD-214, and I am a systems engineer at a large IT company.

If they looked at Scott's then they'd have to look at the reenlistment code to see that he got ADSEPed. That's one obscure box in an otherwise normal DD-214.

ADSEP generally doesn't hurt anyone. It is a 'convenience of the government' separation. It's not dishonorable or bad conduct.

They don't care what you pissed, as far as I know. Pot, coke, they don't care.


Interesting. When I first got out, EVERYONE wanted to see mine. Must be mainly if you live near a military post/base (which I did at the time). Huh.
 
2011-10-28 11:13:54 PM  

CasperImproved: You are so full of beans, that nothing other than chili will deflate. Emulate you? I still think you retarded. If I *wanted* to be like you, I'd hate myself. The people that make you rich have moved the jobs from the US to India, Brazil, or somewhere else they can take advantage of their depressed or underwhelmed market.

You have no excuse for putting your dollars where it only helps you. That is the problem wIth the 1%. You only think "you".

You flatter yourself to think you have value.... you are only a greedy down sucking leech on the last bones of this economy.

You think the protesters are probably wrong. I'm guessing you're conceited That I deserve "all I can fill my belly up with, and fark everyone else" attitude is part of what they are protesting about.

You sir if what I described is true, are a Fail.

"altruism" ? You and your motives stink. Emulate you? I can't even stand you. You reek of carnage and uncaring.

The sad thing? I don't even blame you. After all, you are a product of your history however anyone wants to evaluate that.

I'd have more to say, but I am thinking you are already bored.

But FYI? I'd give you a fish... but I sincerely doubt you'd know what to do with it.


FWIW, I'm (mostly) on your side, but I thought your 6 point list was pretty goofy, too.

You are dancing around the central issue: I think just about everyone agrees that there's a problem in the growing disparity between the filthy rich and the just plain filthy, and I think most people will agree that the economic state of the middle class in America has been steadily receding. So, the central question becomes, how do we change that without utterly demolishing the concepts of democracy and capitalism upon which our society is founded?

Wishing that everyone would suddenly wake up, see the plight of their fellow man, and give everything they have to charities is unrealistic, and besides which will not help anyone in the long run. "Feed the poor", no matter how noble, ignores the greater concern of exactly why they are poor and what could be done to change that.

I do not hold a single grudge against the fabulously wealthy in this nation. They've earned their fortunes, they recognize the way our political and economic systems are structured, and they work them to their best advantage--that's simply survival of the fittest in the modern sense. I'm jealous of them, absolutely, but I don't think they should be forced to give a single penny back simply because they've done better for themselves than others have. Now, I'm 110% in favor of fixing the utterly ridiculous tax system this nation employs, so that the richest people and (especially) corporations have to pay a fair share, but again, so long as the system allows these people to escape paying greater amounts, of course they're going to do so. I didn't see any lower/middle class people lining up to return the "stimulus" checks Bush cut for us a few years back.

In a nutshell, I commend you for (apparently) doing what you can to help those less fortunate than yourself, but don't kid yourself into thinking that's the answer to all our nation's ills. Likewise, don't assume that none of the "1%" do nothing...many do, and not simply because they fear worse things if they don't. Stop and think about exactly what the long-term solution to these issues is, and then about what you can do to help bring that about. I don't pretend to know the answer to that, either, but I think that a couple hundred million American adults thinking and talking about that would be a much greater help than a few thousand camping out in parks.
 
2011-10-28 11:19:54 PM  

CasperImproved: pcwolf: baggins2000: ing they were rioting and throwing rocks and such. When I look at the videos I see a number of video cameras but no videos of the protesters throwing anything, but the return of gas canisters.

Plenty of video evidence of police splattered with paint, though.
Inductive proof of protester violence, but at the same time incontrovertible proof.
I support OWS but doubt Oakland P.D. splattered themselves with paint in order to open fire on the Marine.


Um any video of that? I did not see it. And lacking the video what makes you so sure they wouldn't add evidence (even weak stuff like paint) after their unprovoked violence? How about the pepper spraying of the couple of soccer moms? I'm sure they were a threat also.

Not to mention, lets say the protesters threw paint on the armor wearing, helmeted, well armed police officers, what gave them the right to respond with potentially deadly force?


I am not saying police response was proportionate. But the same videos showing the lead-up to the actual incident also pass over a helmeted policeman with what looks to be a good quart or so of blue paint covering his left cheek, neck, and uniform shoulder. There are other vids too.

I was military and worked crowd control and if I were hit with *anything* thrown, even just a tomato, I would for sure be looking for a target. For my baton.
 
2011-10-28 11:20:15 PM  

Mitch Taylor's Bro:

1 I heard a report on KCBS AM radio (local news station) that the whole incident (not just the Olsen part) is going to be reviewed to see if the Oakland PD violated certain procedures that were instituted after the 2003 Iraq War protests. Point being that the police have rules of conduct for handling situations like this, and if those were violated, it would mean that Olsen would shoulder none of the blame. It could mean that he got hit by an errant projectile that never should have been fired, for example.

2 You're right; it shouldn't matter. But to some people, it does. My point was to build on your point and say that it could matter to MORE people now BECAUSE he's a vet--the people who normally wouldn't care that some hippie got his skull fractured by the cops, but hold military servicemen and women in high regard. If that cop had fired a little more to the left or right, we'd be having a different conversation and those people could go back to their cozy little convenient view of the Occupy movement as just a bunch of hippies that should get jobs (jobs that don't exist in the current economy). But it was a vet--and a Marine at that--who took one on the noggin and now they either have to dismiss him as less than worthy of their respect despite the fact that he's a vet, or maybe, just maybe, question their own view of the Occupy movement.


If the police acted outside of protocol, then I absolutely support a thorough investigation and punishment for any officers/those in charge who acted inappropriately. That being said, the victim still has to own some of the blame. As I stated in an earlier post, even if the protesters were confident in their right to be there and protest, when people are repeatedly telling you that they are going to fire tear gas at you if you don't move your ass, it's in your best interest to move your ass and take it up with those in charge later, rather than standing around to be nailed in the head. Again, not saying he deserved it, just that if he would have left when asked, he couldn't have been present to be injured.
 
2011-10-28 11:31:00 PM  
The feds want the protesters to initiate violence and mayhem to impose martial law. Executing a protester might have been planned. Killing a Marine was the wrong person to start with.
 
2011-10-28 11:46:13 PM  
GaryPDX LSD is a helluva drug.

You wouldn't know LSD if it bit you in the ass.


/If it ever did, it would take a nice sized chunk out of you.
 
2011-10-28 11:47:23 PM  
Link (new window)

When you are up to your ass in alligators it is hard to remember your job is to drain the swamp.
 
2011-10-28 11:59:30 PM  

CasperImproved: You are so full of beans, that nothing other than chili will deflate. Emulate you? I still think you retarded. If I *wanted* to be like you, I'd hate myself. The people that make you rich have moved the jobs from the US to India, Brazil, or somewhere else they can take advantage of their depressed or underwhelmed market.

You have no excuse for putting your dollars where it only helps you. That is the problem wIth the 1%. You only think "you".

You flatter yourself to think you have value.... you are only a greedy down sucking leech on the last bones of this economy.

You think the protesters are probably wrong. I'm guessing you're conceited That I deserve "all I can fill my belly up with, and fark everyone else" attitude is part of what they are protesting about.

You sir if what I described is true, are a Fail.

"altruism" ? You and your motives stink. Emulate you? I can't even stand you. You reek of carnage and uncaring.

The sad thing? I don't even blame you. After all, you are a product of your history however anyone wants to evaluate that.

I'd have more to say, but I am thinking you are already bored.

But FYI? I'd give you a fish... but I sincerely doubt you'd know what to do with it.


The funny part is, a guy who just wrote this hateful screed - because someone differs from his epic fail, bleeding-heart worldview - thinks he's the better person.

I laugh at your folly as I consume my caviar and sham-pag-nuh.
 
2011-10-29 12:00:19 AM  

pcwolf: CasperImproved: pcwolf: baggins2000: ing they were rioting and throwing rocks and such. When I look at the videos I see a number of video cameras but no videos of the protesters throwing anything, but the return of gas canisters.

Plenty of video evidence of police splattered with paint, though.
Inductive proof of protester violence, but at the same time incontrovertible proof.
I support OWS but doubt Oakland P.D. splattered themselves with paint in order to open fire on the Marine.


Um any video of that? I did not see it. And lacking the video what makes you so sure they wouldn't add evidence (even weak stuff like paint) after their unprovoked violence? How about the pepper spraying of the couple of soccer moms? I'm sure they were a threat also.

Not to mention, lets say the protesters threw paint on the armor wearing, helmeted, well armed police officers, what gave them the right to respond with potentially deadly force?

I am not saying police response was proportionate. But the same videos showing the lead-up to the actual incident also pass over a helmeted policeman with what looks to be a good quart or so of blue paint covering his left cheek, neck, and uniform shoulder. There are other vids too.

I was military and worked crowd control and if I were hit with *anything* thrown, even just a tomato, I would for sure be looking for a target. For my baton.


Exactly what is wrong with the world.

Who the fark are you, man?

Be glad I'm not your protester, man.

Seriously.

Ended.

Yer badge is revoked as of now.
 
2011-10-29 12:00:42 AM  

Kome: StanTheMan: Kome: StanTheMan: These lefties know all the tricks to resist and provoke, and then play the victim.

It's easy to play the victim when you are actually victimized.

That's what courtrooms are for.

Be sure to tell that to Olsen.


I would, but my state bar has a rule against directly soliciting business from potential clients.
 
2011-10-29 12:00:45 AM  

StanTheMan: CasperImproved: To clarify, you *act* as a 1%'er when:

1) Your personal wealth is 10x more important then your fellow man.

It is. My personal wealth takes care of me and my family better than the government can. My family is my priority over my fellow man, most definitely. I sincerely hope my fellow man feels the same way.

2) You feel it is more important to get that second house, than to feed the poor.

Well I don't really think either is important, because I don't want a second house, and the poor in the US are experiencing an obesity epidemic. But buying more homes would sure help this economy, certainly in California where I live.

3) You have a four year old vehicle that needs replaced solely because it's four years old.

I have a 2011 vehicle, so no. But I thought I was supposed to support those UAWs as a good American? Someone has to pay for those big fat bonuses they just got at Government Motors, no?

4) It's never occurred to you to volunteer to help at the church, soup kitchen, or shelter.

Conservatives donate more of their time and money than liberals. Personally, I assume my massive tax bill pays for the homeless, and I don't want to be near the unwashed masses. It's gross. I'd rather give my money to animal rescue or military-related charities.

5) If you are more concerned about your timeshare, then the current state of the economy.

I would never make such a bad investment as a timeshare, but a rising tide lifts all ships. I invest in stocks, US companies. They make money, I make money, they hire people, pay taxes, and I spend money and pay taxes, win win for me, my stocks, the economy. You know, stimulus, but without the inefficiencies and cronyism of government stealing from future prosperity to do it.

6) I could go on... but it likely would not make a difference.

True that.

I suggest you consider your place in the universe, rather then your place in the economy, and how much it hurts.

My investment strategy enriches me and my fellow man. Maybe you should consider that your good intentions add up to a hill of beans, and that just being on the "poor me, please send me a check" end of the economy doesn't help your fellow man.

In other words, be like me, not against me, and everyone wins. Don't steal from me, emulate me if you want some of the wealth. Teach a man to fish, don't give hm a fish...

Believe it or not, helping others actually feels good.

Ah, so it's all about your feeling good, not altruism, got it. Outcomes/results, notsomuch.


when arrogant assholes like you have your backs against the wall, i will cheer.
 
2011-10-29 12:08:44 AM  

fark_your_mudder: If the police acted outside of protocol, then I absolutely support a thorough investigation and punishment for any officers/those in charge who acted inappropriately. That being said, the victim still has to own some of the blame. As I stated in an earlier post, even if the protesters were confident in their right to be there and protest, when people are repeatedly telling you that they are going to fire tear gas at you if you don't move your ass, it's in your best interest to move your ass and take it up with those in charge later, rather than standing around to be nailed in the head. Again, not saying he deserved it, just that if he would have left when asked, he couldn't have been present to be injured.


I guess I just assign blame differently. To me, a victim is a victim. And the minute we start assigning partial blame to victims, we start partially condoning abhorrent behavior.

I blame the person who made the last bad decision. Sure, Olsen could've left. But since he didn't, the officer had a lot more options to avoid what happened. He or she could have A) not fired a round at all, B) not aimed it AT the crowd and C) not aimed it at people's heads.

Anyway, you seem like a reasonable person and I think we're both firm in our beliefs, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. But here's a link to the report I heard earlier that suggests the Oakland PD may not have had the right to use tear gas AT ALL.

Link (new window)
 
2011-10-29 12:13:14 AM  

Harv72b: CasperImproved: You are so full of beans, that nothing other than chili will deflate. Emulate you? I still think you retarded. If I *wanted* to be like you, I'd hate myself. The people that make you rich have moved the jobs from the US to India, Brazil, or somewhere else they can take advantage of their depressed or underwhelmed market.

You have no excuse for putting your dollars where it only helps you. That is the problem wIth the 1%. You only think "you".

You flatter yourself to think you have value.... you are only a greedy down sucking leech on the last bones of this economy.

You think the protesters are probably wrong. I'm guessing you're conceited That I deserve "all I can fill my belly up with, and fark everyone else" attitude is part of what they are protesting about.

You sir if what I described is true, are a Fail.

"altruism" ? You and your motives stink. Emulate you? I can't even stand you. You reek of carnage and uncaring.

The sad thing? I don't even blame you. After all, you are a product of your history however anyone wants to evaluate that.

I'd have more to say, but I am thinking you are already bored.

But FYI? I'd give you a fish... but I sincerely doubt you'd know what to do with it.

FWIW, I'm (mostly) on your side, but I thought your 6 point list was pretty goofy, too.

You are dancing around the central issue: I think just about everyone agrees that there's a problem in the growing disparity between the filthy rich and the just plain filthy, and I think most people will agree that the economic state of the middle class in America has been steadily receding. So, the central question becomes, how do we change that without utterly demolishing the concepts of democracy and capitalism upon which our society is founded?

Wishing that everyone would suddenly wake up, see the plight of their fellow man, and give everything they have to charities is unrealistic, and besides which will not help anyone in the long run. "Feed the poor", no matter how noble, ignores the greater concern of exactly why they are poor and what could be done to change that.

I do not hold a single grudge against the fabulously wealthy in this nation. They've earned their fortunes, they recognize the way our political and economic systems are structured, and they work them to their best advantage--that's simply survival of the fittest in the modern sense. I'm jealous of them, absolutely, but I don't think they should be forced to give a single penny back simply because they've done better for themselves than others have. Now, I'm 110% in favor of fixing the utterly ridiculous tax system this nation employs, so that the richest people and (especially) corporations have to pay a fair share, but again, so long as the system allows these people to escape paying greater amounts, of course they're going to do so. I didn't see any lower/middle class people lining up to return the "stimulus" checks Bush cut for us a few years back.

In a nutshell, I commend you for (apparently) doing what you can to help those less fortunate than yourself, but don't kid yourself into thinking that's the answer to all our nation's ills. Likewise, don't assume that none of the "1%" do nothing...many do, and not simply because they fear worse things if they don't. Stop and think about exactly what the long-term solution to these issues is, and then about what you can do to help bring that about. I don't pretend to know the answer to that, either, but I think that a couple hundred million American adults thinking and talking about that would be a much greater help than a few thousand camping out in parks.


Thanks for your response. It points out that you are a nice person, but also that I failed to convey my point.

The 1% haves, for the most part had the wealth already there before they had anything to do with it recently. Because of poor taxation planning by the government (or planned), this previous wealth continued to grow leaps and bounds by having not been taxed at the same rate as the underprivileged, or even the middle class.

Add to that the tax advantages that corporations have achieved in that same period? Especially when many have moved much of their job needs overseas, and still reap their tax benefits.... Hell, Obama not long ago sent $500 million overseas by giving it to an in country company, that sent the work overseas (solar power technology apparently can be built cheaper over seas). The complaint list could go on forever.....

And you will understand the need for a current protest. The inequity of earnings, loss of jobs to overseas "cheap places to move jobs", continued devaluation of the dollar, and the seeming greed of share holders not willing to invest, but rather just short term accumulate cash.

Who get's screwed? The middle class.

A flat tax across the board would be a good start. Trim the tax laws. If everyone paid the same percentage, and there were *NO* loopholes for anyone, That would be a great start.

Cut all benefits for companies and only start giving them incentives when they achieve in country employment targets. All this crap about giving small start-ups benefits? That's crap. Most new startups fail in the first year. Why give/brag about incentives to small startups knowing that most fail in the first year? We need commitments and tax money from the big companies. If they balk? Kick them out of the country, and don't allow them business here. Meet quota targets for taxation, and for employment. If they can't? Go find another country to sell/build your wares as they can't be sold here until you meet requirements.

The time for the piggies to start opening their purse strings is now.

We are getting to the point of "let them eat cake" just not being supportable anymore.

And yes I know I am only touching what needs to actually be discussed along with hundreds of other initiatives.

But I say start big, then work on the details.
 
2011-10-29 12:16:09 AM  
Indubitably pussy.

There are many tender points where one can use a baton to immobilize an active aggressor. The common peroneal nerve, for instance. Not every strike needs to be a head-banging, just as every CS lob should not be a head-shot.

Get back to me after you have stood in a hostile crowd and your job is to ensure order. Not police-state order, common civil order.

I am as lib as they come, but I also know when faced with a clear hostile act how to defend myself.
 
2011-10-29 12:24:50 AM  

StanTheMan: david1963: Actually, no. The teabaggers are just miguided idiots, while today's pig is tomorrow's bacon.

Right, so we can, in fact, run endless, massive deficits and staggering debt with no consequences. Only a misguided idiot would think otherwise.


Why would that matter to you (the 1%'r)?

I don't want you to take this as a compliment. But honestly? I think you belong in congress with your brother do-nothings. And you can spend the few hours a day that they do discussing what they will never accomplish, and still earn the 9% approval rating of the general public.

After reading all you have sad on this thread, I believe we have zero in common. Which should also help you in a congressional office.

/I haven't put anyone in my ignore list. I am seriously tempted right now
//Blowhard, mean nothing, contribute nothing, blah blah is strong in you
///Could be the Whiskey talking, but somehow I don't think so or at least not all of it
 
2011-10-29 12:27:11 AM  

david1963: pcwolf:

Plenty of video evidence of police splattered with paint, though.

URL?

Inductive proof of protester violence, but at the same time incontrovertible proof.

"Proof?"

Really?


URL posted just a few posts above this one.
Inductive proof: No direct video of OWS protester throwing the paintbomb, but there are cops splattered with paint, and someone had to throw them.
 
2011-10-29 12:32:05 AM  

CasperImproved: StanTheMan: david1963: Actually, no. The teabaggers are just miguided idiots, while today's pig is tomorrow's bacon.

Right, so we can, in fact, run endless, massive deficits and staggering debt with no consequences. Only a misguided idiot would think otherwise.

After reading all you have sad on this thread, I believe we have zero in common. Which should also help you in a congressional office.

/I haven't put anyone in my ignore list. I am seriously tempted right now
//Blowhard, mean nothing, contribute nothing, blah blah is strong in you
///Could be the Whiskey talking, but somehow I don't think so or at least not all of it


He is already one of the very few people on my list but I still get to see all of his posts thanks to people like you constantly quoting him.
 
2011-10-29 12:32:43 AM  
Hey young radicals, anarchists & commies.

One piece of advice from an old radical who's managed to live to get old without ever going to prison: BE CAREFUL.

Before you go getting non-non-violent, think about the people who are most in favor of throwing shiat at the police. Two things:

If they're juveniles, are you? If you get caught, will you be tried as an adult and maybe sent to prison? Are you really willing to risk that? If you are, are you hoping you won't get sent to prison or are you hoping you will?

And do you know the super-radical well from before all this, or did you just meet him there? Do you know this person well enough to literally trust him with your life, or is there a chance he might be a police agent sent there to stir up trouble and get people arrested or hurt?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a peacenik. I always have been and always will be a revolutionary; I know there can never be a truly peaceful solution. But the revolution will not happen overnight. It's going to be a long hard process.

This is why it's important for young revolutionaries to stay out of prison and remain alive and well.

Be careful. Mainly, don't trust your safety, your freedom and maybe your life to someome you just met who talks a lot of heavy anti-police shiat and insists you have to do something right there right away.

To quote the Wikipedia article on agent provocateur (new window):

'Traditionally, an agent provocateur (plural: agents provocateurs, French for "inciting agent(s)") is a person employed by the police or other entity to act undercover to entice or provoke another person to commit an illegal act. More generally, the term may refer to a person or group that seeks to discredit or harm another by provoking them to commit a wrong or rash action.'

Think about what you want to do, why you want to do it, and who you want to do it with before you do it. And don't let some stranger set you up or rush you into anything. There will always be another day to do shiat if you make it through this one okay.

We need revolutionaries, not martyrs -- and not fools.
 
2011-10-29 12:36:28 AM  

Livingroom: when arrogant assholes like you have your backs against the wall, i will cheer.


And I will fire. And reload.
 
2011-10-29 12:42:21 AM  

CasperImproved: StanTheMan: david1963: Actually, no. The teabaggers are just miguided idiots, while today's pig is tomorrow's bacon.

Right, so we can, in fact, run endless, massive deficits and staggering debt with no consequences. Only a misguided idiot would think otherwise.

Why would that matter to you (the 1%'r)?

I don't want you to take this as a compliment. But honestly? I think you belong in congress with your brother do-nothings. And you can spend the few hours a day that they do discussing what they will never accomplish, and still earn the 9% approval rating of the general public.

After reading all you have sad on this thread, I believe we have zero in common. Which should also help you in a congressional office.

/I haven't put anyone in my ignore list. I am seriously tempted right now
//Blowhard, mean nothing, contribute nothing, blah blah is strong in you
///Could be the Whiskey talking, but somehow I don't think so or at least not all of it


So this is your wordy, rambling, surly, drunken way of saying it is, in fact, OK to run $1.5 trillion annual deficits, and run up debt we have no possible way of repaying?

It's funny, the tired, failed, Keynesian status quo of running up insurmountable debt and defaulting like Greece is, apparently, "progress" in your addled brain. Doing something about it constitutes "doing nothing."

Proof, ladies and gentlemen, that God/evolution put libbies brains in backwards.
 
2011-10-29 12:44:10 AM  

Phelon Hardtimes: CasperImproved: StanTheMan: david1963: Actually, no. The teabaggers are just miguided idiots, while today's pig is tomorrow's bacon.

Right, so we can, in fact, run endless, massive deficits and staggering debt with no consequences. Only a misguided idiot would think otherwise.

After reading all you have sad on this thread, I believe we have zero in common. Which should also help you in a congressional office.

/I haven't put anyone in my ignore list. I am seriously tempted right now
//Blowhard, mean nothing, contribute nothing, blah blah is strong in you
///Could be the Whiskey talking, but somehow I don't think so or at least not all of it

He is already one of the very few people on my list but I still get to see all of his posts thanks to people like you constantly quoting him.


Drawn like moth to flame...

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2011-10-29 12:47:04 AM  
If that marine didn't want a tear gas canister shot into his head he should have backed off when told.
/former marine myself.
//just because you're a vet doesn't make you infallible. You break the law you get your skull cracked.
 
2011-10-29 12:55:46 AM  

pcwolf: Indubitably pussy.

There are many tender points where one can use a baton to immobilize an active aggressor. The common peroneal nerve, for instance. Not every strike needs to be a head-banging, just as every CS lob should not be a head-shot.

Get back to me after you have stood in a hostile crowd and your job is to ensure order. Not police-state order, common civil order.

I am as lib as they come, but I also know when faced with a clear hostile act how to defend myself.


...and I don't know what to say because you already said it, babe...

That'll do.

Boo!
 
2011-10-29 01:17:23 AM  
Two random facts from the local news -- Chief Jordan went to the hospital to talk to Olsen and his family. It's unclear if he's under arrest, but it's really classy to interrogate someone with a brain injury bad enough he can't talk and not allow him an attorney.

It's also worth noting that the 97 protesters arrested on Tuesday were scheduled to be arraigned on Thursday, but haven't been yet. That's 72 hours without an opportunity to post bail.
 
2011-10-29 01:33:44 AM  
fnordfocus It's also worth noting that the 97 protesters arrested on Tuesday were scheduled to be arraigned on Thursday, but haven't been yet. That's 72 hours without an opportunity to post bail.

Habeas got chucked out during the Rodney King Riots with a shrug...
 
2011-10-29 01:39:41 AM  

StanTheMan: CasperImproved: StanTheMan: david1963: Actually, no. The teabaggers are just miguided idiots, while today's pig is tomorrow's bacon.

Right, so we can, in fact, run endless, massive deficits and staggering debt with no consequences. Only a misguided idiot would think otherwise.

Why would that matter to you (the 1%'r)?

I don't want you to take this as a compliment. But honestly? I think you belong in congress with your brother do-nothings. And you can spend the few hours a day that they do discussing what they will never accomplish, and still earn the 9% approval rating of the general public.

After reading all you have sad on this thread, I believe we have zero in common. Which should also help you in a congressional office.

/I haven't put anyone in my ignore list. I am seriously tempted right now
//Blowhard, mean nothing, contribute nothing, blah blah is strong in you
///Could be the Whiskey talking, but somehow I don't think so or at least not all of it

So this is your wordy, rambling, surly, drunken way of saying it is, in fact, OK to run $1.5 trillion annual deficits, and run up debt we have no possible way of repaying?

It's funny, the tired, failed, Keynesian status quo of running up insurmountable debt and defaulting like Greece is, apparently, "progress" in your addled brain. Doing something about it constitutes "doing nothing."

Proof, ladies and gentlemen, that God/evolution put libbies brains in backwards.


It isn't the Keynesians that are against raising taxes. They're not the ones demanding more and more corporate welfare.

Keynesians are the ones saying we SHOULD have been paying off the debt when we had the money to do so, instead of pissing it away on pointless, poorly-handled wars, useless security theater and handouts to the upper class. Keynesians are the ones saying maybe, just maybe, we should spend on our national infrastructure instead of increasing the size of our hideously bloated military.

But to you, a 'Keynesian' is the same as a socialist, liberal, or progressive. Just another label you don't understand, but Fox and/or Limbaugh told you to be scared of it.
 
2011-10-29 01:40:41 AM  

DempseySR26: If that marine didn't want a tear gas canister shot into his head he should have backed off when told.
/former marine myself.
//just because you're a vet doesn't make you infallible. You break the law you get your skull cracked.


So you believe that it's the normal routine to shoot people in the head from 15-20 feet away with a metal canister of toxic gases?
 
2011-10-29 01:45:59 AM  

CasperImproved: Thanks for your response. It points out that you are a nice person, but also that I failed to convey my point.

The 1% haves, for the most part had the wealth already there before they had anything to do with it recently. Because of poor taxation planning by the government (or planned), this previous wealth continued to grow leaps and bounds by having not been taxed at the same rate as the underprivileged, or even the middle class.

Addto that the tax advantages that corporations have achieved in that same period? Especially when many have moved much of their job needs overseas, and still reap their tax benefits.... Hell, Obama not long ago sent $500 million overseas by giving it to an in country company, that sent the work overseas (solar power technology apparently can be built cheaper over seas). The complaint list could go on forever.....

And you will understand the need for a current protest. The inequity of earnings, loss of jobs to overseas "cheap places to move jobs", continued devaluation of the dollar, and the seeming greed of share holders not willing to invest, but rather just short term accumulate cash.

Who get's screwed? The middle class.

A flat tax across the board would be a good start. Trim the tax laws. If everyone paid the same percentage, and there were *NO* loopholes for anyone, That would be a great start.

Cut all benefits for companies and only start giving them incentives when they achieve in country employment targets. All this crap about giving small start-ups benefits? That's crap. Most new startups fail in the first year. Why give/brag about incentives to small startups knowing that most fail in the first year? We need commitments and tax money from the big companies. If they balk? Kick them out of the country, and don't allow them business here. Meet quota targets for taxation, and for employment. If they can't? Go find another country to sell/build your wares as they can't be sold here until you meet requirements.

The time for the piggies to start opening their purse strings is now.

We are getting to the point of "let them eat cake" just not being supportable anymore.

And yes I know I am only touching what needs to actually be discussed along with hundreds of other initiatives.

But I say start big, then work on the details.


I tend to think that people on all sides of this are nice for the most part; even the officer(s) who put Olsen down. I seriously doubt that he intended to seriously injure this guy, or any guy, and I would expect that right now he is a ball of conflicting emotions about it: guilt over what happened, anger at Olsen for being in that place at that time, and fear over the possibility of losing his job and/or freedom over the incident. Put another way, I spent years debating religion for "fun", I've learned how to see other sides of a particular issue & not to take counter-arguments, no matter how poorly worded, the wrong way.

Look, I'm not a rocket scientist, nor an economist. I can't quote you a bazillion and one articles or historical references or mathematical figures to prove why this is right or that is wrong. Truth be told, I'm a college dropout & lifelong underachiever who often feels he has more intellect than he knows what to do with. I think about issues like this one a lot, and have been since long before OWS or the Tea Party or any of these protest groups took to the streets. I know what I consider to be logical, and I know what I consider to be right.

We both mentioned the tax codes, and we're almost 100% in agreement on that. It should be nothing short of a crime that top "U.S." corporations can get around billions of dollars in taxes, annually, by shifting this or that reporting office offshore. It's likewise absurd to think about the fact that middle class persons in America end up collectively spending millions (hundreds of millions?) of dollars per annum on tax preparation. When the tax laws are so cluttered and filled with loopholes that not even a career tax specialist can know everything, they're broken.

That being said, I also know that without small businesses, we'd have no large businesses in America (or anywhere, for that matter). I've worked for mom & pop organizations in the past, and I've worked for mega-corporations as well. Walmart started as a small business, so did Tandy (RadioShack), hell, even coca-cola was small-time at one point. Those small businesses need help from the government to get going, especially with the stiff (borderline unfair) competition they get from the large chains. So, on the one hand I can see that all the loopholes and stipulations in the tax laws overwhelmingly benefit the ultra-rich, but on the other I can see that those working hard at becoming the 1% of tomorrow need them to succeed. Interesting quandary.

I also cannot fault the large corporations for moving work overseas. There, they get huge tax (and other) breaks from the host nation, they get a large work force willing to work hard for lower wages and longer hours than their American counterparts, and with modern equipment and quality control practices, do not see a sharp decline in the final product. Simply put, it enables those huge corporations to provide the products that we feel we need, at lower prices. Which in turn enables them to make even more money which they can use to beat American tax laws while lobbying our politicians to keep the status quo.

Forcing large corporations to keep jobs stateside won't work, and the American public wouldn't stand for it when they found out that it would drive consumer pricing up. And that, my friend, is where I believe the root of this problem lies--we are all greedy bastards.

I sell cellular phones and plans for a living (or did, until recently...now one of the nameless, faceless unemployed). Smartphones became the thing while I worked in the industry, and do you know what one of our selling lines focused on for people thinking of moving up to one? All the apps you can get to save money--finding the cheapest gas station close to your location, comparison shopping the competition while you're standing in a store, etc. And of course, the saving money translated to the devices themselves; I can't tell you how many times I had a customer walk up and quote me a price from a competitor on one of our handsets. Not saying you or anyone in particular, but in general, Americans don't really care what it takes to make their products cheap, they just want them cheap. Which, again, tilts the marketplace heavily into the favor of global supercorporations who can negotiate better supply deals, move their factories (or their suppliers) overseas, and provide a cheaper, quality product.

If you take away the tax breaks that small businesses get, you drive even more of them out of business, which raises unemployment. If you place rules & regulations like you mentioned on the large companies, you take a big ol' chunk out of the whole concept of capitalism and either drive them away or drive up the final costs to consumers, more of whom are out of work because the small businesses are failing more rapidly (and, incidentally, raise prices even more because less competition invariably equals higher prices from the survivors--basic supply & demand).

I truly wish it were as easy a fix as updating the tax codes and requiring "American" businesses to keep jobs in America, but it isn't that simple. We, as a nation, need to accept the fact that in order to keep jobs American, we need to pay more in the stores. In order to keep unemployment down, we need to keep taxes reasonable on people most of us see as "rich"--the small business owners. We need to learn to make due with a little bit less for a little bit longer, and we probably need to pay higher taxes in order to fund the tax breaks for businesses which do provide jobs in this nation and keep our economy afloat.

As an aside, what happens to the rest of the world if we actually manage to pull this off? Right now, many of these evil corporations (and we all, as an extension) are creating middle classes in developing nations which have never had them. Global trade is among the stimuli towards freedom and democracy in many third world nations, and our dollars are helping to fund this. I seem to recall reading once that the second-most recognized English word in the world (behind "hello") was "coca-cola".

It's remarkably easy to say that the 1% are to blame for everything that's wrong in this nation, but in reality it's every one of us. Call me a pessimist, but I don't think we're ready to accept that, let alone do the things necessary to fix it.
 
2011-10-29 01:47:54 AM  

SkinnyHead: Marines are required to obey the law just like everyone else. If they participate in a riot in violation of the law, they deserve what they get, just like everyone else.


So if the law is that you personally are no longer allowed to live (and you disagreed with that) you totally deserve what you get for violating the law?

Laws are made by people. Sometimes they are made by bad people. Bad people frequently will make bad laws for their own purposes.

Just because something is a "law" doesn't make it right, ethical, or moral (whatever you prefer to call it.)

/tl;dr: Law != Ethically/Morally correct
 
2011-10-29 01:50:02 AM  
Wow, that was way longer than I meant it to be.
 
2011-10-29 01:53:59 AM  

CasperImproved: To clarify, you *act* as a 1%'er when:

1) Your personal wealth is 10x more important then your fellow man.


Woo hoo! I'm on of the 1%!!

No stfu and diaf.
 
2011-10-29 01:54:55 AM  
e.

What? 1%ers can be drunk, too.
 
2011-10-29 02:06:02 AM  
If the OWS protesters did organize (which is what they need to do, seriously) they would just become a greedy mega corporation and then it would be the same old same old. I has a sad for our country.
 
2011-10-29 03:06:43 AM  

frepnog: guys, if you are breaking the law, you are breaking the law, and that IS not a right. This was not a lawful assembly in any way.


The point of the first amendment is that governments don't get to decide what is a "lawful assembly". In my opinion, it is the police breaking the supreme law of the land.
 
2011-10-29 05:07:24 AM  
My head nearly asplode after reading the full first page of comments after TFA. It's so sad that we have so many dim bulbs here in the US. I love all the morons who claim to have such love and deep knowledge of US history and yet look down upon protestors with the highest disdain. I can just see these brainless dipshiats cheering on the British Empire during the American Revolution.
 
2011-10-29 05:33:26 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: DeathByGeekSquad: Hey, look, a class offered by CivSol:

This class can be taught as a 12-course, full class or as a 2-4 hour workshop. Breaking Rank goes through a brief world history of soldiers resisting wars and fighting for social justice from within the ranks. It also looks at desertion, combat refusal, mutiny, sabotage, and some instances of mass draft resistance.

So that justifies the policeman putting him into a coma and causing him brain damage at a peaceful assembly?


Throwing rocks at an authority figure is peaceful?
 
2011-10-29 05:36:09 AM  

Harv72b: DeathByGeekSquad: He's a member of CivSol, which is working towards creating a system where soldiers could refuse to deploy, among other things.

I get that active and retired military personnel may be unhappy with the current military strategy, but those that I've spoken with have begrudgingly stated that if they're ordered somewhere, they'll go there because it's their job and what they're obligated to do.

I feel that some of these 'resistance movements' prey on unhappy soldiers. Yes, prey. Fueling the flames of dissent to further the legitimacy of their cause.

Soldiers can already refuse to deploy, they just have to deal with the punishment which follows. Or, revert to one of the myriad ways to legally get out of the armed forces before one's contract expires.

That being said, in what way does any of this relate to the topic being discussed here?


If we're not considering things outside the situation, why does it matter that the individual was a veteran? In this situation, they were a protestor first.
 
2011-10-29 05:49:50 AM  

DeathByGeekSquad: If we're not considering things outside the situation, why does it matter that the individual was a veteran? In this situation, they were a protestor first.


IMHO, the point is that it's just generally kind of sad that this guy made it through deployment in an actual, hot combat zone only to come home and be taken out by an explosive, thrown by a cop, while peacefully protesting, which is absolutely what he was doing.
 
2011-10-29 07:54:10 AM  

vrax: DeathByGeekSquad: If we're not considering things outside the situation, why does it matter that the individual was a veteran? In this situation, they were a protestor first.

IMHO, the point is that it's just generally kind of sad that this guy made it through deployment in an actual, hot combat zone only to come home and be taken out by an explosive, thrown by a cop, while peacefully protesting, which is absolutely what he was doing.


Because the organizers of OWS dont give a rats ass that he got hurt. They wanted someone to get hurt because it makes more people outraged. Thats why they plant professional provocateurs in the crowds who try and throw paint at the police. They are wildly misguided but are not stupid. They've read Marx, Lenin and Mao so they know what the public will be sympathetic to and in this case of this guy, they struck gold. What better story to tell the public that a war hero got his head stomped by Oakland PD?

The lawful, non-violent tea party protests managed to elect 60 representatives and 5 senators to congress. I dont see OWS doing anything except ruining the future careers of protesters whos names are now blasted all over social media
 
2011-10-29 09:56:41 AM  
Here, son. I want you to put on this uniform. Go over there and shoot a bunch of people who have no argument with you. Make sure you don't leave anyone standing. Why? Well, son, it's like this. We have financial and political interests there. Without that squat of land to call our own, we can't choke out our real (perceived) enemies or garner all this insane money for military contractors we are beholden to.

But, don't worry. When you get back home, you'll get a hero's welcome (right in the farking face) and we'll take care of your urgent medical needs as they arise. After all, you're fighting for our 'freedom' and it's the least we can do.

Trust me.
 
2011-10-29 10:46:36 AM  

Riothamus: Wow. That is one of the most despicable things I have ever seen. This is way beyond kicking a man when he's down. How can you live with yourself, wingnutx? Since we know you're a liar, I'm willing to bet you never farking served. You know, it's illegal to falsely claim military service even if you are behind 8 proxies.


Yeah. It has been confirmed that "ihatethematinecorps" was his website.
 
2011-10-29 10:48:31 AM  

o5iiawah: What better story to tell the public that a war hero got his head stomped by Oakland PD?


I'm going to just have to go ahead and disagree. If the OWS wanted to do something like that, the LAST guy they would have chosen is this guy.
 
2011-10-29 11:29:10 AM  

halfof33:

Yeah. It has been confirmed that "ihatethematinecorps" was his website.


Citation please.
 
2011-10-29 11:42:17 AM  

2wolves: Citation please.


Link (new window)

My suggestion is that you use the WayBack machine to confirm the information yourself.

And please don't bother angrily attacking me for providing this information. We went through that yesterday.
 
2011-10-29 12:40:49 PM  

halfof33: 2wolves: Citation please.

Link (new window)

My suggestion is that you use the WayBack machine to confirm the information yourself.

And please don't bother angrily attacking me for providing this information. We went through that yesterday.


What do you mean "we?"
 
2011-10-29 12:56:50 PM  

DeathByGeekSquad: If we're not considering things outside the situation, why does it matter that the individual was a veteran?


It doesn't.

My point in that particular post was that it does not in any way tarnish his service to this country if he exercised his rights to free speech once he was discharged.
 
2011-10-29 01:14:32 PM  

grimnir: Were OWS demonstrators organizing the same type of events, the response would likely be similar. Take that how you will.


The tea party was financially propped up by big corporations. It is pretty easy to assemble "concerts" with permits when big money pays for it all.

And I believe those same corps bought organizer leaders as well.
 
2011-10-29 01:15:49 PM  

2wolves: What do you mean "we?"


We, as In fark.
 
2011-10-29 01:16:31 PM  

Harv72b: DeathByGeekSquad: If we're not considering things outside the situation, why does it matter that the individual was a veteran?

It doesn't.

My point in that particular post was that it does not in any way tarnish his service to this country if he exercised his rights to free speech once he was discharged.


Nah, its totally cool, every ex-marine-cocaine using-jew hating-guy who trashes the men and women who fought beside him deserves to have his freedom of speech protected and deserves to be held up as a hero because he forgot to duck.

This one really came back to bite the left in the ass.
 
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