It's all fun and games until a large chunk of concrete falls on a passing motorist, killing her instantly.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

CalTRANS regularly comes under budget and ahead of schedule on majority of their projects... but once in a while they don't and they're all over the news. CARMAGGEDON crap with the 405 was done 6 hours early and within budget.

Did they ever find that guy who never returned?

yarnothuntin: Did they ever find that guy who never returned?

Yep, they made him the mascot of the Boston subway's electronic fare card. Makes sense, doesn't it?

The argument actually makes sense. A state giving $15 million back to the Treasury isn't even a drop in the bucket for the latter (which can print dollars at will anyway), and it's in the taxpayers' interest that states continue to manage their projects well. Systems that require departments to "use 'em or lose 'em" encourage inefficiency, yet I see them in businesses just as often as governments.

Governments spend money. That is what they do. The big question is whether or not taxpayers are getting good value -- i.e., spend vs. waste. It won't put any sort of dent in the deficit, and even if it was split among the people of Massachusetts, the refund would end up being a whopping $2.50/citizen.

Spending the remaining $15 million on something else wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

Poor widdle beak-wetters were all tuckered out from plundering the Big Dig Project.

dragonchild: The argument actually makes sense. A state giving $15 million back to the Treasury isn't even a drop in the bucket for the latter (which can print dollars at will anyway), and it's in the taxpayers' interest that states continue to manage their projects well. Systems that require departments to "use 'em or lose 'em" encourage inefficiency, yet I see them in businesses just as often as governments.

Governments spend money. That is what they do. The big question is whether or not taxpayers are getting good value -- i.e., spend vs. waste. It won't put any sort of dent in the deficit, and even if it was split among the people of Massachusetts, the refund would end up being a whopping $2.50/citizen.

Spending the remaining $15 million on something else wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

We actually got an email today (work for a private company) reminding us all that we have to use the money in the department's expense account because it doesn't roll over.

THAT'S NOT TRUE; IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!!1!

\ too obvious?

WTFDYW: They accidentally the whole thing.

They accidentally the transportation project- THE WHOLE THING!

/do it right

ArkAngel: I dig this in a big way

What you did there, I see it.

It's The Herald so somehow everything will be Obama's fault.

ddam: dragonchild: The argument actually makes sense. A state giving $15 million back to the Treasury isn't even a drop in the bucket for the latter (which can print dollars at will anyway), and it's in the taxpayers' interest that states continue to manage their projects well. Systems that require departments to "use 'em or lose 'em" encourage inefficiency, yet I see them in businesses just as often as governments.

Governments spend money. That is what they do. The big question is whether or not taxpayers are getting good value -- i.e., spend vs. waste. It won't put any sort of dent in the deficit, and even if it was split among the people of Massachusetts, the refund would end up being a whopping $2.50/citizen.

Spending the remaining $15 million on something else wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

We actually got an email today (work for a private company) reminding us all that we have to use the money in the department's expense account because it doesn't roll over.



I see it all the time. At the end of every fiscal year all sorts of shiat is bought that isn't necessarily needed just so the money doesn't have to be returned.

ArkAngel: I dig this in a big way

I see what you did there...

/Was thinking something similar.

Why is there never any incentives to manage money correctly?

Couldn't states just overestimate the cost of projects in order to keep the extra federal money?


/Please don't kill me. I don't know how these things work.

Does this mean we can lower the drinking age?

blondski: Couldn't states just overestimate the cost of projects in order to keep the extra federal money?

The risk there is that the project gets rejected for being too expensive to begin with. Believe it or not, people do actually pay attention to these sorts of things. The political pressure is actually to low-ball the estimate, then use up all the money and, with the project half-finished, make the government commit to more funding or deal with the embarrassment of the taxpayers getting zero value for a half-finished project. In business speak, "It's always easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission."

In the case of the Big Dig -- the gold standard for bloated construction projects -- the unique engineering challenges resulted in some inevitable cost overruns. The city badly needed the traffic re-routed, but there was no farking way they would've met all their objectives for the paltry sum of the initial estimate -- not when it's not like the existing traffic goes away while you're working on the new roads. While there was plenty of corruption, the use of substandard materials was actually done by private contractors basically ripping off the government.

dragonchild: blondski: Couldn't states just overestimate the cost of projects in order to keep the extra federal money?

The risk there is that the project gets rejected for being too expensive to begin with. Believe it or not, people do actually pay attention to these sorts of things. The political pressure is actually to low-ball the estimate, then use up all the money and, with the project half-finished, make the government commit to more funding or deal with the embarrassment of the taxpayers getting zero value for a half-finished project. In business speak, "It's always easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission."

In the case of the Big Dig -- the gold standard for bloated construction projects -- the unique engineering challenges resulted in some inevitable cost overruns. The city badly needed the traffic re-routed, but there was no farking way they would've met all their objectives for the paltry sum of the initial estimate -- not when it's not like the existing traffic goes away while you're working on the new roads. While there was plenty of corruption, the use of substandard materials was actually done by private contractors basically ripping off the government.

Thanks for explaining that in such a cordial, unfark-like way.

Wait! What? Under budget? I'm going to have to file a grievance with the union ombudsman!

yarnothuntin Quote 2011-10-26 05:47:39 PM
Did they ever find that guy who never returned?


I don't know. The Kingston Trio identified who he was, though.

Avenger: Why is there never any incentives to manage money correctly?

That costs too much money to implement.

Im getting a kick, since I live along a rural highway that gets repaved like EVERY YEAR even though it doesnt need it at all, because of the usual "use it or lose it" budget issues.

dragonchild: blondski: Couldn't states just overestimate the cost of projects in order to keep the extra federal money?

The risk there is that the project gets rejected for being too expensive to begin with. Believe it or not, people do actually pay attention to these sorts of things. The political pressure is actually to low-ball the estimate, then use up all the money and, with the project half-finished, make the government commit to more funding or deal with the embarrassment of the taxpayers getting zero value for a half-finished project. In business speak, "It's always easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission."

In the case of the Big Dig -- the gold standard for bloated construction projects -- the unique engineering challenges resulted in some inevitable cost overruns. The city badly needed the traffic re-routed, but there was no farking way they would've met all their objectives for the paltry sum of the initial estimate -- not when it's not like the existing traffic goes away while you're working on the new roads. While there was plenty of corruption, the use of substandard materials was actually done by private contractors basically ripping off the government.

A well reasoned response. However, I believe we can shorten it. to something like this:

Because of local governmental lack of over-site, The "big dig" experienced excessive cost over-runs , a project plan that was extended by years, and the slackness that allowed private contractors to introduce substandard materials. Not to mention becoming the laughingstock of North America in regards to project management.

/Threw that last part in as way of a bonus

CasperImproved: A well reasoned response. However, I believe we can shorten it. to something like this:

Because of local governmental lack of over-site, The "big dig" experienced excessive cost over-runs , a project plan that was extended by years, and the slackness that allowed private contractors to introduce substandard materials.

No, my point was that because of the enormous complexity of the project, the initial budget and timeline were unrealistic by billions and years anyway. Ripping off the government by using substandard materials was entirely the contractors' idea, and probably would've happened even if the government managed the project competently -- though they might've been caught sooner. It was textbook fraud, and blows open a huge hole in the right-wing ideology that privatizing services is the solution to everything.

I blame Scott Brown !

The voters must defeat him in 2012, so that the State can return to normal, Left-wing crazy corruption.


(Yes, I KNOW that it is a commonwealth)

FFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

dragonchild: The argument actually makes sense.

This kind of thinking is the problem with government. The stimulus was passed with rules and now you want to break the rules. That is why spending is out of control... and I'm a single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, tax-the-rich liberal. If you want money for other projects, then follow the standard process for doing that. Don't try to glom funds from some loophole that was meant to SAVE taxpayers money. fark YOU!

ddam: CalTRANS regularly comes under budget and ahead of schedule on majority of their projects... but once in a while they don't and they're all over the news. CARMAGGEDON crap with the 405 was done 6 hours early and within budget.

That government civil construction projects are always late and over budget is something 'everyone knows' that really isn't true for the most part. Defense and government IT projects sure, those are always over budget cluster farks. Defense because defense spending is all about how much money the contractor can grift. IT projects because you can't manage IT projects in the typical top down water fall model you use for other projects and come under budget and on time. Just doesn't work.

Jobs that involve moving dirt and pouring concrete over rebar, nope. The budgeting and scheduling of those projects are well understood. Plus a lot of the contractors handle both commercial and government projects. Try and tell people that though, and they won't believe you. Show them numbers and they still won't believe you.

Why wouldn't they believe me!

theknuckler_33: This kind of thinking is the problem with government. The stimulus was passed with rules and now you want to break the rules. That is why spending is out of control...

Um, it isn't a problem, they're not breaking the rules, and they spent under budget for crissakes.

They wound up with money left over, and as far as anyone can tell from reading TFA, they're asking for permission to keep it in a very civil manner. Oh, there's some blah-blah about "jobs" -- of course there'll be -- but overall the message doesn't even register a 1 on the shrill-o-meter.

If this is your idea of a problem, then you might as well off yourself because no nation on the planet will satisfy your derp.

theknuckler
dragonchild: The argument actually makes sense.

This kind of thinking is the problem with government. The stimulus was passed with rules and now you want to break the rules. That is why spending is out of control... and I'm a single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, tax-the-rich liberal. If you want money for other projects, then follow the standard process for doing that. Don't try to glom funds from some loophole that was meant to SAVE taxpayers money. fark YOU!

Thank you.

Only a farking idiot or politician would think this is a "wacky" rule. Return the money. If its federal money then the feds should decide how to spend that money or, this is wacky, return it to the Treasury to pay down debt.

ddam: CalTRANS regularly comes under budget and ahead of schedule on majority of their projects... but once in a while they don't and they're all over the news. CARMAGGEDON crap with the 405 was done 6 hours early and within budget.

Unfortunately, it's the really big things, like the Bay Bridge debacle, that make up for all the little successes. And it's not even their fault; it's a really well-managed department, but every politician wants to get their name on one of the icons of California. Just like every new freeway these days only gets built under the name of their elected sponsors, rather than national heroes and location like in the old days.

There should be some other form of incentive - this just looks too much like evaporating budgets to me. How about - we double the money that you can prove you saved over the last year ? Sure, your budget *might* be a bit lower the next, but perhaps now it's all worth it.

Just wait till they find out they just moved the headstones!

Buffalo77: or, this is wacky, return it to the Treasury to pay down debt



This is the government we are dealing with, where a reduction in the rate of increase is considered a "cut".

Farking amateurs.

dragonchild: theknuckler_33: This kind of thinking is the problem with government. The stimulus was passed with rules and now you want to break the rules. That is why spending is out of control...

Um, it isn't a problem, they're not breaking the rules, and they spent under budget for crissakes.

They wound up with money left over, and as far as anyone can tell from reading TFA, they're asking for permission to keep it in a very civil manner. Oh, there's some blah-blah about "jobs" -- of course there'll be -- but overall the message doesn't even register a 1 on the shrill-o-meter.

If this is your idea of a problem, then you might as well off yourself because no nation on the planet will satisfy your derp.

Third stinkin' paragraph!!!

"Those rules require states to return unspent funds to the federal treasury if construction projects come in under budget, rather than allowing states to retain those funds and spend them on other projects."

FTFA : "What the Governor has asked is that since the savings is a result of our good management of the funds, could Massachusetts retain this money and redistribute it to other projects within MA," said the spokeswoman, Cyndi Roy, in an email to the News Service.

Typical political thinking. Hey cockstains, the stimulus money was borrowed, not earned. It is NOT extra money. How about you return the unspent portion and not pay interest on it.

theknuckler_33: Third stinkin' paragraph!!!

"Those rules require states to return unspent funds to the federal treasury if construction projects come in under budget, rather than allowing states to retain those funds and spend them on other projects."

Uh, yeah. They're ASKING for an exception. They could've embezzeled the money, but they didn't. Oh the humanity.

dragonchild: theknuckler_33: Third stinkin' paragraph!!!

"Those rules require states to return unspent funds to the federal treasury if construction projects come in under budget, rather than allowing states to retain those funds and spend them on other projects."

Uh, yeah. They're ASKING for an exception. They could've embezzeled the money, but they didn't. Oh the humanity.

I know this is pointless after two days, but the point I was making is that you think asking for an 'exception' is reasonable. The rules were written into the legislation that way for a reason. To save money for the taxpayer if possible. The taxpayer was actually saved money in this particular case and instead of giving it back, they want to keep it, so they are 'asking nicely'. fark that. If your project is important, then make a request for appropriations through the normal channels, don't ask for a damned exception to the rules that were put in place to prevent exactly what they are trying to do. In other words, request denied.