Just because of the asshats at CR don't know how to operate vehicle systems, it doesn't mean quality is slipping.

/CR is for people who can't form their own opinion

fatalvenom: Just because of the asshats at CR don't know how to operate vehicle systems, it doesn't mean quality is slipping.

/CR is for people who can't form their own opinion

Neither can 90% of our consumers. Hell they wouldn't check the damn tire pressure if the TPMS sensors didn't scream at them.

A big part of quality is dummy proofing.

"The findings are based on surveys taken this spring of subscribers who own or lease 1.3 million vehicles of model years from 2002 to 2011. "

As opposed to basement-dwelling trolls, who can't RTFA.

ha-ha-guy: Neither can 90% of our consumers. Hell they wouldn't check the damn tire pressure if the TPMS sensors didn't scream at them.

A big part of quality is dummy proofing.


That is true.

fatalvenom: /CR is for people who can't form their own opinion

Sooo... seeking out the experiences and opinions of other people who already own something you're considering buying - something in the area of $20k or up - is a bad thing?

That's news to me...

fatalvenom: ha-ha-guy: Neither can 90% of our consumers. Hell they wouldn't check the damn tire pressure if the TPMS sensors didn't scream at them.

A big part of quality is dummy proofing.


That is true.

The problem with that is dummies are so ingenious.

ha-ha-guy: A big part of quality is dummy proofing.

As soon as you dummy proof something, nature breeds a dumber dummy.

Although most of the transmission problems were rated as minor, many subscribers said the cars seemed to shift at will, especially at low speeds, Champion said.

"It's as if it's got a brain of its own," he said. "I think a lot of people think there's something wrong with it."

Isn't that the whole point of an automatic transmission?

/drives a manual
//shifts at my will

Splinshints: Sooo... seeking out the experiences and opinions of other people who already own something you're considering buying - something in the area of $20k or up - is a bad thing?

about quality issues you may not be able to quantify viewing one brand new over the course of 20 minutes of using it no less

That would be the same Ford that just posted its 10th consecutive profitable quarter?

source (new window)


/Planning on getting a Ford next spring
//I don't think I've ever agreed with CR on any of their car reviews.

I particularly loved the part in the article where someone was complaining that the transmission shifted as if "it has a mind of its own".

Of course it does, you dolt. It's a continuously variable transmission, which is supposed to shift itself through an effectively infinite number of gear ratios in order to allow the drive shaft to maintain a constant angular velocity, so the vehicle operates at peak efficiency. This is how the wee beasty gets 40 MPH on the highway, as opposed to the 35 MPH my second generation Focus gets.

These types of folks also do not take into account that the touch screen control panel works on a processor a generation behind the top of the line smartphones and is processing a buttload of info. Of course it's going to be a little laggy. If you can't deal with it, go find yourself a 1995 Olds and STFU.

Praise Cheesus: I particularly loved the part in the article where someone was complaining that the transmission shifted as if "it has a mind of its own".

Of course it does, you dolt. It's a continuously variable transmission, which is supposed to shift itself through an effectively infinite number of gear ratios in order to allow the drive shaft to maintain a constant angular velocity, so the vehicle operates at peak efficiency. This is how the wee beasty gets 40 MPH on the highway, as opposed to the 35 MPH my second generation Focus gets.

These types of folks also do not take into account that the touch screen control panel works on a processor a generation behind the top of the line smartphones and is processing a buttload of info. Of course it's going to be a little laggy. If you can't deal with it, go find yourself a 1995 Olds and STFU.

That's the problem. State of the art cars being operated by people from the 50's

Praise Cheesus: I particularly loved the part in the article where someone was complaining that the transmission shifted as if "it has a mind of its own".

Of course it does, you dolt. It's a continuously variable transmission, which is supposed to shift itself through an effectively infinite number of gear ratios in order to allow the drive shaft to maintain a constant angular velocity, so the vehicle operates at peak efficiency. This is how the wee beasty gets 40 MPH on the highway, as opposed to the 35 MPH my second generation Focus gets.

These types of folks also do not take into account that the touch screen control panel works on a processor a generation behind the top of the line smartphones and is processing a buttload of info. Of course it's going to be a little laggy. If you can't deal with it, go find yourself a 1995 Olds and STFU.

I knew Ford's are slow, but 40 MPH...?

Stop not liking the car I like!!

Praise Cheesus:
These types of folks also do not take into account that the touch screen control panel works on a processor a generation behind the top of the line smartphones and is processing a buttload of info. Of course it's going to be a little laggy.

That's bad product management. When someone pays $35,000 for a car and you gave them no choice but to have a touchscreen control then it better be as fast as a $50 phone or you're going to have dissatisfied customers. You can't tell a customer who paid that much to "deal with it".

You sound like an engineer.

/engineer

RectalFury: I knew Ford's are slow, but 40 MPH...?

I'm guessing he meant MPG.

The same people who called CR shills when they were ranting and raving about Ford's comeback will now point to this as evidence that even reputable publications agree Ford is crap. And vice versa. I predict very little in between.

zez: Although most of the transmission problems were rated as minor, many subscribers said the cars seemed to shift at will, especially at low speeds, Champion said.

"It's as if it's got a brain of its own," he said. "I think a lot of people think there's something wrong with it."

Isn't that the whole point of an automatic transmission?

/drives a manual
//shifts at my will

Everyone's autos are shifting more these days. Trying to keep the car in the optimal power/mpg band to meet with CAFE requirements. We're moving from a marketplace where 4 speeds were the norm (and some 6 speed autos floated around) over to 6 speed is the standard and 8 speed is an option.

To the auto workers of the world:

If you do not work in a plant in the area formerly known as West Germany or have a CEO who speaks Japanese or Korean, I am not interested in purchasing the products of your labor. If you do not fall under this category, please do the world a favor and EABOD and DIAF.

wont_eat_bugs: Consumer Reports? The same publication that raved about the Toyotas that tried to kill their drivers? Thanks, but I'll stick to driving Fords. We've owned at least a dozen that I can think of off the top of my head and haven't had a bad one yet.

1972 Pinto wagon (sold for twice what I paid for it)
1974 Pinto wagon
1983 Mustang II
1986 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe (god, I wish I'd kept that one)
1987 Thunderbird
1990 Taurus wagon
1995 Aerostar extended length
1995 Thunderbird
1998 Explorer
1998 Mustang GT convertible
2002 Escape
2008 Mustang Bullitt
2008 Mustang GT convertible

This doesn't include the dozen or so Fords my parents and siblings own or have owned, either.


/anecdotal data is anecdotal.

Fords have not been known to not catch on fire (with thousands of incidents). The recent Toyota problems were almost completely imaginary (there was a single fatal incident caused by a dealer putting the wrong model of floor mats in the car).

Here's my experience with my 2006 Scion xA (Scion was the brand ranked highest overall):

Since I bought the car in August of 2005, here is the complete list of repairs I've made to the vehicle (not counting damage from accidents or routine maintenance items like tires and brakes):

1. I replaced the stereo under warranty.
2. Um, that's it.
3. Yes, really.
4. Nothing else has broke in six years.

When I replace this car with a flying one in 2035 or so, you'll better believe I'll buy another Toyota product.

beta_plus: To the auto workers of the world:

If you do not work in a plant in the area formerly known as West Germany or have a CEO who speaks Japanese or Korean, I am not interested in purchasing the products of your labor. If you do not fall under this category, please do the world a favor and EABOD and DIAF.

The best way for them to DIAF would be to drive one of those west German vehicles.

beta_plus: To the auto workers of the world:

If you do not work in a plant in the area formerly known as West Germany or have a CEO who speaks Japanese or Korean, I am not interested in purchasing the products of your labor. If you do not fall under this category, please do the world a favor and EABOD and DIAF.

Ford, since ~2005, has actually been really, really good. Not quite Japanese good, but close.

At least going by my and my family's experiences, Japanese cars tend to be quite a bit more solidly built than American cars*, but I actually fit into American cars, so that's a net wash. My Utter POS Chevy Malibu I had last summer had the sole redeeming virtue of being the only car I have ever driven where the seat wasn't all the way back, and I am physically incapable of getting into the shotgun seat of new Toyota Camry (Height, not weight).

*Though they both fall apart around the same time. Problems start cropping up around 150K, and serious problems where it's cheaper to simply buy another used car start cropping up around 200K.

Geotpf: Here's my experience with my 2006 Scion xA (Scion was the brand ranked highest overall):

Since I bought the car in August of 2005, here is the complete list of repairs I've made to the vehicle (not counting damage from accidents or routine maintenance items like tires and brakes):

1. I replaced the stereo under warranty.
2. Um, that's it.
3. Yes, really.
4. Nothing else has broke in six years.

When I replace this car with a flying one in 2035 or so, you'll better believe I'll buy another Toyota product.

My wife and I had a 2006 Scion xA as well, with the five-speed manual, and we finally had to get rid of it because that engine/transmission combination SO badly needs a sixth overdrive gear. We live in the DC area, where the average speed during commuting hours is 75+ MPH on most major roads, and at 75 MPH that little four-banger was SCREAMING at way above 3000 RPM. It was a constant drone that never went away. We couldn't take it on long road trips for the same reason.

So yeah, it was reliable, and nothing ever broke while we owned it, but it was intolerable above 60.

/YMMV

I'm not a fan of the MyFordTouch controls. It's like trying to manipulate an Ipad in the middle of your dashboard while driving. You can't do it without taking your eyes off the road. That's fine for setting up a GPS or something that you have to look at anyway, but not your radio and climate control. I prefer actual controls. Buttons and Knobs. The tactile interaction helps you to do it without taking your eyes off the road.

I bought a Ford Flex earlier this year. No MyFordTouch in it. I love it so far.

MadManMoon: Geotpf: Here's my experience with my 2006 Scion xA (Scion was the brand ranked highest overall):

Since I bought the car in August of 2005, here is the complete list of repairs I've made to the vehicle (not counting damage from accidents or routine maintenance items like tires and brakes):

1. I replaced the stereo under warranty.
2. Um, that's it.
3. Yes, really.
4. Nothing else has broke in six years.

When I replace this car with a flying one in 2035 or so, you'll better believe I'll buy another Toyota product.

My wife and I had a 2006 Scion xA as well, with the five-speed manual, and we finally had to get rid of it because that engine/transmission combination SO badly needs a sixth overdrive gear. We live in the DC area, where the average speed during commuting hours is 75+ MPH on most major roads, and at 75 MPH that little four-banger was SCREAMING at way above 3000 RPM. It was a constant drone that never went away. We couldn't take it on long road trips for the same reason.

So yeah, it was reliable, and nothing ever broke while we owned it, but it was intolerable above 60.

/YMMV

I have the auto, so I dunno about the manual. But I've had no problems cruising at those speeds or faster (and, neither did you really, other than engine noise). It is an economy car, so the engine isn't the most powerful. The xD which replaced it has a more powerful engine.

Praise Cheesus: I particularly loved the part in the article where someone was complaining that the transmission shifted as if "it has a mind of its own".

Of course it does, you dolt. It's a continuously variable transmission, which is supposed to shift itself through an effectively infinite number of gear ratios in order to allow the drive shaft to maintain a constant angular velocity, so the vehicle operates at peak efficiency. This is how the wee beasty gets 40 MPH on the highway, as opposed to the 35 MPH my second generation Focus gets.

These types of folks also do not take into account that the touch screen control panel works on a processor a generation behind the top of the line smartphones and is processing a buttload of info. Of course it's going to be a little laggy. If you can't deal with it, go find yourself a 1995 Olds and STFU.

It's not a CVT it's a dual clutch 6 speed. Electronically controlled with no torque converter. I can see the point with the myFord touch. I adjust all my climate and radio controls by feel. I can adjust everything without looking. Kinda hard to do without tactile response. I can't wait to play around with the sync voice controls once my Fiesta gets delivered.

Praise Cheesus: Of course it does, you dolt. It's a continuously variable transmission, which is supposed to shift itself through an effectively infinite number of gear ratios in order to allow the drive shaft to maintain a constant angular velocity, so the vehicle operates at peak efficiency. This is how the wee beasty gets 40 MPH on the highway, as opposed to the 35 MPH my second generation Focus gets.

Actually, the tranny in question is a dual-clutch automatic. Car and Driver has repeatedly complained that the transmission behaves oddly, and that buyers should also nix the MyFordTouch, which gives you back more traditional controls.

So while people may have legitimate gripes with how these options are behaving, I don't see how they have anything to do with reliability.

aka_mrcam: Praise Cheesus: I particularly loved the part in the article where someone was complaining that the transmission shifted as if "it has a mind of its own".

Of course it does, you dolt. It's a continuously variable transmission, which is supposed to shift itself through an effectively infinite number of gear ratios in order to allow the drive shaft to maintain a constant angular velocity, so the vehicle operates at peak efficiency. This is how the wee beasty gets 40 MPH on the highway, as opposed to the 35 MPH my second generation Focus gets.

These types of folks also do not take into account that the touch screen control panel works on a processor a generation behind the top of the line smartphones and is processing a buttload of info. Of course it's going to be a little laggy. If you can't deal with it, go find yourself a 1995 Olds and STFU.

It's not a CVT it's a dual clutch 6 speed. Electronically controlled with no torque converter. I can see the point with the myFord touch. I adjust all my climate and radio controls by feel. I can adjust everything without looking. Kinda hard to do without tactile response. I can't wait to play around with the sync voice controls once my Fiesta gets delivered.

I love the SYNC in my GF's Raptor. Once you set everything up, its cool. The Raptor has traditional climate controls and buttons for the radio, although I never use them.

ha-ha-guy: fatalvenom: Just because of the asshats at CR don't know how to operate vehicle systems, it doesn't mean quality is slipping.

/CR is for people who can't form their own opinion

Neither can 90% of our consumers. Hell they wouldn't check the damn tire pressure if the TPMS sensors didn't scream at them.

A big part of quality is dummy proofing.

Sometimes, not even if it does.
I swear, I was issued a pickup truck from my company's motor pool. Get in, start up, TPMS lights off.
Go back to garage, ask for the tire gauge so I can figure out which tire is bad, fix it, and get on my way.
"Oh yeah...that's just broken, ignore it..."
The truck is Sure nuff, one tire had gotten a nail in it...

Quality is directly proportional to variance in the parts orders. American companies allow greater variance in parts production in an effort to offset higher labor costs. Therefore their quality is always lower

Unless your car comes with e-toms, it's basically just a toaster!

Nice to see Consumer Reports figured out what I figured out eight months ago when we bought my wife's Jeep Patriot: Safer, more reliable, ten grand cheaper, and can go where a Rav4 would drown.

Suck it, CR.

wont_eat_bugs: Consumer Reports? The same publication that raved about the Toyotas that tried to kill their drivers? Thanks, but I'll stick to driving Fords. We've owned at least a dozen that I can think of off the top of my head and haven't had a bad one yet.

1972 Pinto wagon (sold for twice what I paid for it)
1974 Pinto wagon
1983 Mustang II
1986 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe (god, I wish I'd kept that one)
1987 Thunderbird
1990 Taurus wagon
1995 Aerostar extended length
1995 Thunderbird
1998 Explorer
1998 Mustang GT convertible
2002 Escape
2008 Mustang Bullitt
2008 Mustang GT convertible

This doesn't include the dozen or so Fords my parents and siblings own or have owned, either.


/anecdotal data is anecdotal.

I'm on my 6th Ford. But my favorite was the 88 Thunderbird turbocoupe. Such a fun car to drive. Fast as hell with just a 4 cylinder and took corners like a racecar. Mustang guys hated that.

wont_eat_bugs: Consumer Reports? The same publication that raved about the Toyotas that tried to kill their drivers? Thanks, but I'll stick to driving Fords. We've owned at least a dozen that I can think of off the top of my head and haven't had a bad one yet.

1972 Pinto wagon (sold for twice what I paid for it)
1974 Pinto wagon
1983 Mustang II
1986 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe (god, I wish I'd kept that one)
1987 Thunderbird
1990 Taurus wagon
1995 Aerostar extended length
1995 Thunderbird
1998 Explorer
1998 Mustang GT convertible
2002 Escape
2008 Mustang Bullitt
2008 Mustang GT convertible

This doesn't include the dozen or so Fords my parents and siblings own or have owned, either.


/anecdotal data is anecdotal.

Wow! That's a lot of cars. Perhaps if you purchased a more reliable brand you wouldn't need to replace them so often.

blindy the pirate: wont_eat_bugs: Consumer Reports? The same publication that raved about the Toyotas that tried to kill their drivers? Thanks, but I'll stick to driving Fords. We've owned at least a dozen that I can think of off the top of my head and haven't had a bad one yet.

1972 Pinto wagon (sold for twice what I paid for it)
1974 Pinto wagon
1983 Mustang II
1986 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe (god, I wish I'd kept that one)
1987 Thunderbird
1990 Taurus wagon
1995 Aerostar extended length
1995 Thunderbird
1998 Explorer
1998 Mustang GT convertible
2002 Escape
2008 Mustang Bullitt
2008 Mustang GT convertible

This doesn't include the dozen or so Fords my parents and siblings own or have owned, either.


/anecdotal data is anecdotal.

I'm on my 6th Ford. But my favorite was the 88 Thunderbird turbocoupe. Such a fun car to drive. Fast as hell with just a 4 cylinder and took corners like a racecar. Mustang guys hated that.

SVO Mustang guys didn't.

blindy the pirate:

I'm on my 6th Ford. But my favorite was the 88 Thunderbird turbocoupe. Such a fun car to drive. Fast as hell with just a 4 cylinder and took corners like a racecar. Mustang guys hated that.

I had an 88 Thunderbird V6. Headgasket blew at 55k, two new bearing packs at 60k, and then I sold the sucker. Besides the shoddy reliability I experienced, the car was chill. Why don't they make velour seats anymore? I loved that.

/end anecdote

Rapmaster2000: blindy the pirate:

I'm on my 6th Ford. But my favorite was the 88 Thunderbird turbocoupe. Such a fun car to drive. Fast as hell with just a 4 cylinder and took corners like a racecar. Mustang guys hated that.

I had an 88 Thunderbird V6. Headgasket blew at 55k, two new bearing packs at 60k, and then I sold the sucker. Besides the shoddy reliability I experienced, the car was chill. Why don't they make velour seats anymore? I loved that.

/end anecdote

Ford's 3.8L V6 sucked about as bad as a Will Smith movie.

/I can tell you plenty of horror stories involving my 1995 V6 Mustang

RectalFury: Praise Cheesus: I particularly loved the part in the article where someone was complaining that the transmission shifted as if "it has a mind of its own".

Of course it does, you dolt. It's a continuously variable transmission, which is supposed to shift itself through an effectively infinite number of gear ratios in order to allow the drive shaft to maintain a constant angular velocity, so the vehicle operates at peak efficiency. This is how the wee beasty gets 40 MPH on the highway, as opposed to the 35 MPH my second generation Focus gets.

These types of folks also do not take into account that the touch screen control panel works on a processor a generation behind the top of the line smartphones and is processing a buttload of info. Of course it's going to be a little laggy. If you can't deal with it, go find yourself a 1995 Olds and STFU.

I knew Ford's are slow, but 40 MPH...?

Mistyped. I meant MPG, but hit the wrong keys. My 2008 Focus with the 2.0L I-4 engine can do 114MPH, but gets the 35MPG at about 75 MPH.

Rapmaster2000: Praise Cheesus:
These types of folks also do not take into account that the touch screen control panel works on a processor a generation behind the top of the line smartphones and is processing a buttload of info. Of course it's going to be a little laggy.

That's bad product management. When someone pays $35,000 for a car and you gave them no choice but to have a touchscreen control then it better be as fast as a $50 phone or you're going to have dissatisfied customers. You can't tell a customer who paid that much to "deal with it".

You sound like an engineer.

/engineer

The MyTouch system handles the navigation, climate control, audio system, and hands-free system for your phone in addition to scanning the vehicle's mechanical systems for faults, calculates the fuel economy and monitors the safety systems. It also handles internet applications and has a tabbed browser built in. Is it overworked? Sounds like it. However, this is the first year of the feature and I learned as a little girl that the first year of a new technology is just wide release beta testing.

I got 324,000 miles out of a 2001 Ford Windstar. Still running

Found and bought another one with 88,000 miles sitting in a field. Near perfect condition.

Got hit hard at a traffic signal while stopped by a dump truck moving at 20+ mph, so hard it bent the driver's seat sideways. Dump truck missed the rear bumper due to it's height and hit the cargo area.

Ford needs to improve the seating for crashes. The Windstar's fixed headrest does not have enough padding and my skull hit the metal inside the seat, felt my brain move inside my skull.

Ford... Please fix your seating with stronger support and more padding in future Ford vehicles. I'm 100% Ford, but my head isn't the same after this impact.

/Neighbor was a lead engineer (retired) with Ford, bringing this up to him this weekend.
//Ford quality #1 even though I got hurt. It was a 42,000 lb tri-axle fully loaded dump truck.

I have bought exactly three items based up a Consumer Reports recommendation, and all three of them sucked. One T.V., one vacuum (yeah, I know, it was supposed to suck) and one major appliance. I see in this survey they list Jeep as top American manufacturer for quality? Considering the source, the results of this survey cast doubt in my mind.

Look, I have absolutely loved every Jeep I have ever owned, but my latest one (JK) is hardly the epitome of quality. Electrical issues, rust issues, underpowered oil consuming engine, headlights that blind anyone in front of me and if conditions are right, Lake Jeep on my floorboards.

//I still love it like Rene Zellweger loved Tom Cruise, for the Jeep it almost is.

JustHereForThePics: I have bought exactly three items based up a Consumer Reports recommendation, and all three of them sucked. One T.V., one vacuum (yeah, I know, it was supposed to suck) and one major appliance. I see in this survey they list Jeep as top American manufacturer for quality? Considering the source, the results of this survey cast doubt in my mind.

Look, I have absolutely loved every Jeep I have ever owned, but my latest one (JK) is hardly the epitome of quality. Electrical issues, rust issues, underpowered oil consuming engine, headlights that blind anyone in front of me and if conditions are right, Lake Jeep on my floorboards.

//I still love it like Rene Zellweger loved Tom Cruise, for the Jeep it almost is.


I don't give a fark what CR says about Chrysler. My GF's uncle's Viper ACR is a farking complete POS.

The running joke I have with him is that his car is faster than mine for 2 laps; then the turtle passes the hare, rapes it's corpse, cums in it's mother's mouth, and fists it's grandfather anally. Just for further embarrassment.