I went to Baltimore & all I got was chased by zombies...

Is that Farmer in the Dell I hear?

How does the thing cost so damn much? Giant budget sucks money from the nifty small-scale projects that let NASA actually contributes to society. Ten or so PIs, a hundred managers and a few dozen contracts to manufacture one-off components is not much bang for the buck. Yes, the science benefits will eventually be great, but much greater is possible if we were to start a lunar/asteroid ISRU race with China and actually build the infrastructure for much bigger telescopes IN space. Unfortunate that so many of NASA's advocates feel like JWST is critically important to the agency.

/Phil's an astronomer, of course he wants the big telescope...

rdyb: How does the thing cost so damn much? Giant budget sucks money from the nifty small-scale projects that let NASA actually contributes to society. Ten or so PIs, a hundred managers and a few dozen contracts to manufacture one-off components is not much bang for the buck. Yes, the science benefits will eventually be great, but much greater is possible if we were to start a lunar/asteroid ISRU race with China and actually build the infrastructure for much bigger telescopes IN space. Unfortunate that so many of NASA's advocates feel like JWST is critically important to the agency.


/Phil's an astronomer, of course he wants the big telescope...

Man, that was all over the place.

FunkOut: Baltimore's reputation isn't as well known outside America as it should be. Canadians and Brits hear all kinds of stories about Detroit and New York and seem to know nothing about the crown jewel of Maryland.

Ah how I love to check daily the Baltimore Sun to see the body count.

Beats watching the O's.

rdyb: How does the thing cost so damn much?

There are two main reasons:

1. There's a lot of new technology that had to be developed to make this thing. The primary mirror is the largest ever put into space, and nobody's ever made/shaped mirror segments out of beryllium before. Then you have the wavefront sensing and control involved in calibrating it. Also, the sunshield is a totally new idea, and it's proved to be one of the more difficult things on the project to build. Another would be the NIRSpec microshutter array.

2. The development for this thing is spread all over the world. Northrop Grumman in California is the prime contractor, GSFC in Greenbelt, MD is responsible for ISIM, Ball Aerospace in Boulder is developing the mirrors, ESA is providing the Ariane 5 launch system, the CSA is developing the Fine Guidance Sensor, Lockheed Martin in Palo Alto is developing NIRCam (primary imager) in conjunction with the University of Arizona, the Mid-infrared Imager (MIRI) is being developed by ESA and JPL, the Near-infrared Spectrometer (NIRSpec) is being developed by ESA/GSFC, and much of the ground software is being developed by the Space Telescope Science Institute (STScI) in Baltimore. Basically, it's a logistical nightmare, but everyone wanted a piece of it. ESA and CSA get some observing time for their contributions.

As far as costs go, the independent review panel determined that there has been no significant waste of money on the project, and efforts to develop the technology needed have been great. The problem is that the budget outline was just infeasible from the start.

ZAZ: It could have been great, but it's time to pull the plug.

If you cut it, though, you'll be getting rid of the observatory that's the highest priority by astronomers. There's no way it could be duplicated on earth, either.

Lou Brown: ZAZ: It could have been great, but it's time to pull the plug.

If you cut it, though, you'll be getting rid of the observatory that's the highest priority by astronomers. There's no way it could be duplicated on earth, either.

Cutting it would also put to waste the money already spent on it. Most of the tech could be used "other" places, but it would be years for it to be applied and take even more money than what would be needed to finish the scope and we'd still be in the dark about most of the workings of the Universe.

There is no telling where the knowledge this thing generates will lead us. Maxwell working on his electromagnetism formula had no idea that it would lead to iPhones in everybody's pockets 150 years later

ZAZ: For example, killing the telescope and barring everybody involved from federal contracts for the next decade might improve the future projects by providing an incentive for accuracy and/or honesty.

There's no way you could do that given how many major government contractors work on the project.

It's also worth noting that the independent review panel concluded that there have been no significant problems with monetary waste or technical performance on the project. In fact, the report states that technical performance has been characterized as "commendable and often excellent" and that "funds invested to date have not been wasted." The problem is that the budget was unrealistic from the get-go, and NASA management never adjusted when that should have been apparent. It's not really a contractor issue.

ZAZ: Cutting it would also put to waste the money already spent on it.

That's the sunk cost fallacy..

How is spending billions of dollars on something then killing it, not wasteful? The particle accelerator outside of Dallas was shut down in the 90s. The money spent on buildings and other structures was a waste. They are now crumbling and collapsing, not being used, underground tunnels filling with ground water. The land is not occupied except for random local wildlife.

Lou Brown: ZAZ: For example, killing the telescope and barring everybody involved from federal contracts for the next decade might improve the future projects by providing an incentive for accuracy and/or honesty.

There's no way you could do that given how many major government contractors work on the project.

Even IF there were waste going on, the government contract ban would also flow to the contractors doing their jobs. If a government ban on contractors that go over budget were instituted, who would do the work? Boeing? Name a contractor that has not gone over budget in 10 years. Also consider that NO ONE HAS DONE ANYTHING LIKE THIS BEFORE. This is NEW technology, it had to be invented. You would be using the banhammer on the best and smartest people working "for the government."