In other news, GE announced they'll be laying off 25,000 workers to help pay for Executive Bonuses. GE's VP of My Dad Got Me This Job told reporters, "I'm really looking forward to that bonus. I'm getting my entire bathroom fur lined, including all the fixtures, and now I will be able to afford fur from the endangered Maylasian Ligre. Much nicer than the mink I had originally settled for."

ShawnDoc: In other news, GE announced they'll be laying off 25,000 workers to help pay for Executive Bonuses. GE's VP of My Dad Got Me This Job told reporters, "I'm really looking forward to that bonus. I'm getting my entire bathroom fur lined, including all the fixtures, and now I will be able to afford fur from the endangered Maylasian Ligre. Much nicer than the mink I had originally settled for."

i don't know a whole lot about GE, but whenever i hear people talk about trying to create "corporate meritocracy," GE is usually one of the prime examples.

But I thought Obama's policies were hurting corporate profits. Steve Jobs said so.

I assume GE still won't be paying any taxes...

So now corporate profits are a bad thing?

FloydA: So now corporate profits are a bad thing?

GE: not boot-strappy enough for the GOP

tgregory: Free country - Where the elected civil servants choose the winners and losers.

And who puts the money into the elections to choose the winners and losers for elections (as well as paying for lobbyists)?

Corporations

Ah..."Capitalism"

tgregory: I agree with you that people and corporations giving money to politicians is wrong, but our political system is setup to allow that. People should be protesting the government on this.

So they protest the government, and some of the critters see the light. They then lose in the primary because suddenly, their opponent has all the corporate money they were expecting to campaign with.

If your neighbor's dog comes over and craps on your lawn, you don't go over and argue with the dog.

dustlesswalnut: Amagi: dustlesswalnut: Amagi: They still paid SS and Medicare payroll and other types of taxes you farking dimwit...

No, their employees paid those taxes.

Sorry to enlighten you sunshine...but your employer jointly contributes to pay your payroll taxes. your employer (also including the likes of GE) pays 6.2% social security tax withholding, 1.45% medicare tax withholding, whatever potential state income tax withholding, various local tax withholdings (city, county, or school district taxes, state disability or unemployment insurance).

All this happens before you even get your own paycheck from them and have to pay your own income taxes, property, and sales taxes, etc...

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Don't be sorry moonbeam, I work for myself and pay 100% of my payroll taxes, so you can blow yourself.

The 7.65% that an employer pays the government is based on you being an employee. It's a cost that an employer takes into account when hiring each and every employee they have.

You can say "the company paid it", but they only paid it because you were there, it's part of your total compensation package. It's 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other.

Ultimately the employee is responsible for those taxes. If your employer misclassified you (or you were simply unaware of your classification) as a contractor, you are responsible for that 7.65%, not the company. The IRS knocks on your door when they don't have the money, not that of the company you worked for.

all employee expenses (free coffee and donuts, healthcare premiums, SS payments, pensions) should be looked at as part of the total compensation package. they are paid to attract labor, and in whatever form they take, they are ultimately are paid in lieu of wages.

that said, corporations should not pay a single dime in income taxes. they should pay usage fees for public goods they stress to a high degree (port fees, tolls. what have you), but income taxes should only be assessed on human beings when any wealth is transferred to them by whatever means (and at much more progressive rates than we have now to account for the lack of corporate taxes).

it's bullshiat that steve jobs with his 16 billion dollars and your granny with 5 shares of apple stock both got wacked at the same clip every year. and it's bullshiat GE has 500 accountants and lawyers and offshore shiat they can do while mom and pa corp gets in the ass. just end it all. raise capital gains taxes significantly in a progressive manner. take the money when people get it. the corporation isn't a person. you shouldn't feel such antipathy for it.

well I guess ma and pa would have an s corp. but whatever. point is...

dustlesswalnut: relcec: all employee expenses (free coffee and donuts, healthcare premiums, SS payments, pensions) should be looked at as part of the total compensation package. they are paid to attract labor, and in whatever form they take, they are ultimately are paid in lieu of wages.

that said, corporations should not pay a single dime in income taxes. they should pay usage fees for public goods they stress to a high degree (port fees, tolls. what have you), but income taxes should only be assessed on human beings when any wealth is transferred to them by whatever means (and at much more progressive rates than we have now to account for the lack of corporate taxes).

Yeah, let people keep their money in a corporate tax shelter, that'll fix our current situation. If generated wealth (corporate income) is never taxed, there's no incentive to continue investing your profits to keep them out of your net income and be taxed.

You may have presented a plan that is stupider than 9-9-9. Of course I knew it was possible, but I didn't think someone capable of using a keyboard would think of it.

it does get taxes, when it goes to humans, you f*cking idiot. a rich person sells stock for a gain, or gets a dividend, then they get taxed a lot more than they do know. regular people don't.

how are the rich gonna live? you think they will suddenly stop spending because now corporations don't get taxed? where will they get there money from? what kind of f*cking moron are you?

dustlesswalnut: relcec: it does get taxes, when it goes to humans, you f*cking idiot. a rich person sells stock for a gain, or gets a dividend, then they get taxed a lot more than they do know. regular people don't.

You do realize that rich people have to spend an comparably incredibly small amount of money to have a standard of living that's 10-15 times yours, right? Bill Gates would only have to pay himself a couple million dollars every few years and leave the other $80 billion in the company, untaxed.

Corporate mansions, corporate Ferraris, corporate yachts, corporate jewelry, etc.

Also, are you drunk? Honest question. It would help me understand your posts more.

relcec: how are the rich gonna live? you think they will suddenly stop spending because now corporations don't get taxed? where will they get there money from? what kind of f*cking moron are you?

Yeah a farkin' idiot, they'd buy everything through the corporation and take small salaries. Jesus you're dumb.

you can't commingle personal and corporate assets. you know nothing about the law. it's the reason the CEO of Tyco is now doing 25 years behind bars.
what good is being wealthy, if you can't have any f*cking wealth ever, you dumbass? they will take it out, and it will be taxed, you f*cking idiot.

Leonard Dennis Kozlowski [1] (born November 16, 1946, Newark, New Jersey) is a former CEO of Tyco International, convicted in 2005 of crimes related to his receipt of $81 million in purportedly unauthorized bonuses, the purchase of art for $14.725 million and the payment by Tyco of a $20 million investment banking fee to Frank Walsh, a former Tyco director. He is currently serving 8.33 to 25 years at the Mid-State Correctional Facility in Marcy, New York. His earliest release date is January 17, 2014, when he becomes eligible for parole.

you think steve jobs is going to have his entire life cataloged, itemized, and billed by Deloitte and published for the world to see every f*cking quarter, just so he can save a little money? his entire worth wrapped up in apple stock because he can't sell it, so he's go his nuts in one basket, has no arrangements for his family and has so cash? it ridiculous.

dustlesswalnut: relcec: dustlesswalnut: relcec: it does get taxes, when it goes to humans, you f*cking idiot. a rich person sells stock for a gain, or gets a dividend, then they get taxed a lot more than they do know. regular people don't.

You do realize that rich people have to spend an comparably incredibly small amount of money to have a standard of living that's 10-15 times yours, right? Bill Gates would only have to pay himself a couple million dollars every few years and leave the other $80 billion in the company, untaxed.

Corporate mansions, corporate Ferraris, corporate yachts, corporate jewelry, etc.

Also, are you drunk? Honest question. It would help me understand your posts more.

relcec: how are the rich gonna live? you think they will suddenly stop spending because now corporations don't get taxed? where will they get there money from? what kind of f*cking moron are you?

Yeah a farkin' idiot, they'd buy everything through the corporation and take small salaries. Jesus you're dumb.

you can't commingle personal and corporate assets. you know nothing about the law. it's the reason the CEO of Tyco is now doing 25 years behind bars.
what good is being wealthy, if you can't have any f*cking wealth ever, you dumbass? they will take it out, and it will be taxed, you f*cking idiot.

Leonard Dennis Kozlowski [1] (born November 16, 1946, Newark, New Jersey) is a former CEO of Tyco International, convicted in 2005 of crimes related to his receipt of $81 million in purportedly unauthorized bonuses, the purchase of art for $14.725 million and the payment by Tyco of a $20 million investment banking fee to Frank Walsh, a former Tyco director. He is currently serving 8.33 to 25 years at the Mid-State Correctional Facility in Marcy, New York. His earliest release date is January 17, 2014, when he becomes eligible for parole.

The money they spend on tax attorneys would instead be spent on property attorneys to make sure that property was correctly accounted for. Sure, the mansion and car would be gone if you leave your job, but hey, that's why the separation clause of your contract is for $20 million.

Kozlowski stole money from the company and used company money to purchase things that he kept for himself. If the board of directors appropriates $1.5 million a year to the executive mansion, garage, and wardrobe, there's nothing illegal about it.

You think that Steve Jobs ever saw with his own eyes 1% of his wealth? It's a number in a bank. Who cares if that bank is in the corporate name?

and they can do that now you idiot.

dustlesswalnut: relcec: and they can do that now you idiot.

Yes but corporate earnings are taxed, something you want to cease.

You really have to be a troll. No one could be this stupid.

yes but costs aren't and that's a cost of doing business you STUPID fark.

dustlesswalnut: Amagi: Actually, the payroll tax is a bit of an accounting farce from the federal perspective in the first place if we are honest...they really do just function as general revenues at the end of the day (the treasury writes some IOUs for the SS "trust" fund and spends the money elsewhere, lol).

I was going preparing a broadside until I got to this part, but yeah, your points are valid. I think the payroll tax/income tax separation exists to hide the true tax cost from every day people. I knew that my employers paid additional taxes when I was a W-2 employee, but until I went off on my own I didn't realize that my taxes were basically double what I had always thought they were.

relcec: Hoopity derp blop ONLY HOOMANS PAY TASSES

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I'm done talking to you.

good, don't ever bother again, f*cking nitwit.

Paying People with Stock
STOCK-BASED COMPENSATION FOR SERVICES

You can use the stock in your company instead of cash to pay for things that you might otherwise have had to pay for in cash. One way to do this is to pay people for their services in stock rather than cash.

You can pay yourself, your employees and others with stock rather than cash for services in several ways:

Stock Grants
Stock Options


Although this has the advantage of preserving your company's cash, it may have unintended or unknown consequences both to your company and to the recipient of stock-based compensation. Make sure you fully understand these consequences before you use your stock as an alternative to cash for compensation purposes.

Stock Grants

You can pay people for services by giving them stock in your company. The stock may be awarded outright, with no restriction, or with restrictions. Restrictions include:

Vesting - The stock is not "vested," or owned by the recipient until the occurrence of some future event.
Forfeiture - The stock is "forfeited," or returned to the company or subject to repurchase by the company upon the occurrence or non-occurrence of some event in the future.
Lock-Up Agreement - An agreement that the recipient will not sell the stock received for a specified period of time that sometimes includes other limiting conditions.


BEWARE OF THE FINANCIAL CONSEQUENCES TO THE RECIPIENT

The IRS treats payments in stock as the equivalent of payments in cash. This means that you must report income and pay tax if you receive stock just the same way as you report income and pay tax if you receive cash.

Here is a typical dialogue between the recipient of stock compensation and their tax adviser:

"You cannot be serious. If I take stock instead of cash as compensation, I have to pay income tax?" YES.

"When do I have to pay the tax?" DEPENDS. Was the stock is given to you outright or with conditions?

"Do you mean that if my company gives me stock with no conditions, I have to report income and pay taxes right away, when I receive the stock?" YES.

"How much income do I have to report and pay taxes on?" An amount equal to the FAIR MARKET VALUE of the stock.

"How do I know what the IRS will call the fair market value of the stock?"

Starting point:

If your stock trades - TRADING PRICE.
If you stock doesn't trade - RECENT CASH SALES PRICES.


Potential reductions:

You may be able to argue to the IRS that the Starting Point value is not the real fair market value. You may be able to justify reducing, but not completely eliminating, the amount of income you have to report by citing factors such as the restricted nature of the stock, the illiquidity of the trading market, or the fact that your stock is subject to a lock-up agreement. This analysis requires input from your tax adviser.


"Can I eliminate this tax headache if the stock is given to me with conditions?" NO. Conditions may delay the date on which you must report income and pay tax, but do not eliminate tax consequences. But beware of the hidden trap.

If the stock is not "vested," or owned by you until the occurrence of some future event, you will owe the tax when the event occurs and the ownership is vested.

If the stock is subject to a right of forfeiture and must be returned to the company or may be repurchased by the company upon the occurrence or non-occurrence of some event in the future, you will owe the tax on the date that the event occurs or doesn't occur, making the stock fully vested.

"But the fair market value of the stock, the amount that determines how much income I report and have to pay, may be greater at the date of these future events than when the stock was granted to me. Does this mean I would have to report income and pay tax at the future higher amount?" YES

"If I receive a stock as compensation with conditions but think the price will go up, subjecting me to higher tax when the Taxing Date occurs, can I elect to pay report the income and pay the tax when I get the stock rather than later when the conditions go away and the stock vests?" YES. By making what the IRS calls a Section 83(b) election. Remember, however, this doesn't mean you pay no tax. It just means you pay tax today, based upon today's value of the stock, rather than in the future, at the future value of the stock.

"What if I cannot sell the stock when I get it or when it is fully vested? Do I still have to report income and pay tax?" YES. Although, as noted above, you may be able to use this fact in reducing, but not eliminating, the value of the stock you received.

"This doesn't seem fair. I get the stock and my ownership is fully vested.. I cannot sell some or all of the stock at that time. I cannot generate cash to pay the taxes but I still have to pay the tax anyway?" YES. Life is not always fair.

STOCK-BASED COMPENSATION FOR SERVICES

You can use the stock in your company instead of cash to pay for things that you might otherwise have had to pay for in cash. One way to do this is to pay people for their services in stock rather than cash.

You can pay yourself, your employees and others with stock rather than cash for services in several ways:

Stock Grants
Stock Options


Although this has the advantage of preserving your company's cash, it may have unintended or unknown consequences both to your company and to the recipient of stock-based compensation. Make sure you fully understand these consequences before you use your stock as an alternative to cash for compensation purposes.

Stock Grants

You can pay people for services by giving them stock in your company. The stock may be awarded outright, with no restriction, or with restrictions. Restrictions include:

Vesting - The stock is not "vested," or owned by the recipient until the occurrence of some future event.
Forfeiture - The stock is "forfeited," or returned to the company or subject to repurchase by the company upon the occurrence or non-occurrence of some event in the future.
Lock-Up Agreement - An agreement that the recipient will not sell the stock received for a specified period of time that sometimes includes other limiting conditions.


BEWARE OF THE FINANCIAL CONSEQUENCES TO THE RECIPIENT

The IRS treats payments in stock as the equivalent of payments in cash. This means that you must report income and pay tax if you receive stock just the same way as you report income and pay tax if you receive cash.

Here is a typical dialogue between the recipient of stock compensation and their tax adviser:

"You cannot be serious. If I take stock instead of cash as compensation, I have to pay income tax?" YES.

"When do I have to pay the tax?" DEPENDS. Was the stock is given to you outright or with conditions?

"Do you mean that if my company gives me stock with no conditions, I have to report income and pay taxes right away, when I receive the stock?" YES.

"How much income do I have to report and pay taxes on?" An amount equal to the FAIR MARKET VALUE of the stock.

"How do I know what the IRS will call the fair market value of the stock?"

Stock Options

With a stock option, you do not receive the stock right away, as with stock grants discussed above, but rather the right, or option, to acquire the stock in the future on certain specified price or terms.

Stock options do not eliminate the tax problems of using stock for compensation discussed above. Stock options merely delay the date of reckoning, the day you report income and pay tax. Depending upon how the stock option is structured, this date of reckoning may be:

The date you receive the option

A stock option granted with an exercise price below the fair market value of the company's stock on the grant date (including through an inaccurate stock valuation) could result in significant federal income tax consequences for the option holder as the option vests. An option subject to Section 409A will give rise to recognition of income by the option holder as the option vests (rather than at the time of exercise), plus an additional 20% tax.

The date you exercise the option

If the option is not granted under a specifically qualified plan, as discussed below, the option is called a "Non-Qualified Stock Option" and you report income an pay tax based upon the difference between the price you pay for the stock under the option and the fair market value of the stock on the date you exercise the option.

The date you sell the stock you acquire with the option

If the option is granted under a specifically qualified plan, called an Incentive Stock Option, or ISO, you report income an pay tax based upon the difference between the price you pay for the stock under the option and the fair market value of the stock on the date you sell the stock you acquired under the option. These ISO Plans have many conditions relating to, among other things:

The aggregate number of shares that may be issued.
Stockholder approval.
Time limits within which option may be exercised.
The exercise price of the option not less than the fair market value (or, if the grantee is a 10% stockholder, 110% of the fair market value) of the underlying stock as of the grant date.
Not transferable.
Amount that can be exercised each year.