The Obama administration is arguing that the law is reasonable because it only applies to instances in which the speaker intends to portray himself as a medal recipient. Previous high court rulings also have limited First Amendment protection for false statements.

Not quite, Fox News... There's limited first amendment protection for false statements made to perpetuate fraud, for example. Or false statements intended to defame someone. But all false statements? There's limited first amendment protection for fictional novels? The Onion doesn't have first amendment rights?

No, the problem with this law was that it went too far - it criminalized false statements, even where the speaker was not attempting to profit or gain anything through fraud. Frankly, where no one is harmed through the speech, I'd rather not provide the government with the power to decide what's "true" and the ability to imprison anyone they disagree with.

I'm a naval pilot, so I'm getting a kick.

Theaetetus: The Obama administration is arguing that the law is reasonable because it only applies to instances in which the speaker intends to portray himself as a medal recipient. Previous high court rulings also have limited First Amendment protection for false statements.

Not quite, Fox News... There's limited first amendment protection for false statements made to perpetuate fraud, for example. Or false statements intended to defame someone. But all false statements? There's limited first amendment protection for fictional novels? The Onion doesn't have first amendment rights?

No, the problem with this law was that it went too far - it criminalized false statements, even where the speaker was not attempting to profit or gain anything through fraud. Frankly, where no one is harmed through the speech, I'd rather not provide the government with the power to decide what's "true" and the ability to imprison anyone they disagree with.

While I agree with you, any political candidate lying about getting a given medal should be removed from the ballot without recourse. No warnings.

As the first man to walk on the moon, i say f*ck em. Hands off my moon money.

How's this for Stolen Valor: after centuries of service members fighting to protect our Constitution, the Congress passes a law that defies it.

kingoomieiii: While I agree with you, any political candidate lying about getting a given medal should be removed from the ballot without recourse. No warnings.

Oh, certainly. I'd say that would be fraud, though. That would be an interesting case.

Wife-like headline detected

Here's one to make the left's head explode:

What if it was a CORPORATION that falsely portrayed itself as a medal recipient? What then?

BravadoGT: Here's one to make the left's head explode:

What if it was a CORPORATION that falsely portrayed itself as a medal recipient? What then?

Thanks, we needed some more idiot in the thread.

BravadoGT: Here's one to make the left's head explode:

What if it was a CORPORATION that falsely portrayed itself as a medal recipient? What then?

IANAL, but fraud is deception used to gain something of value. Personal adoration doesn't count.

kingoomieiii: While I agree with you, any political candidate lying about getting a given medal should be removed from the ballot without recourse. No warnings.

Why? Free speech doesn't apply to political candidates? Since one of the purposes of free speech is protect political speech, that seems backwards.

How about just widely publish the lie?
"Presidential candidate who falsely claimed to have a Medal of Honor Joe Smith (R) stated today in a press conference..."
"In recent polls, Presidential candidate who falsely claimed to have a Medal of Honor Joe Smith's (R) popularity has been dropping precipitously..."
"Advisors have been leaving the campaign of Presidential candidate who falsely claimed to have a Medal of Honor Joe Smith (R) in droves after he falsely claimed to have a Medal of Honor..."

Honestly, saying that we need a statute to address this seems to be a heavy-handed solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

I can see two lines of argument here:

1) This law is unconstitutional and unnecessary, since common law fraud should cover any situation in which someone uses this law to gain a material advantage.

2) The law is constitutional in that portraying oneself as a medal winner while not being so is an act of libel and slander against people who actually are, so there's nothing wrong with making it intrinsically illegal.

I tend to side with argument #1 here.

DamnYankees: I can see two lines of argument here:

1) This law is unconstitutional and unnecessary, since common law fraud should cover any situation in which someone uses this law to gain a material advantage.

2) The law is constitutional in that portraying oneself as a medal winner while not being so is an act of libel and slander against people who actually are, so there's nothing wrong with making it intrinsically illegal.

I tend to side with argument #1 here.

#2 seems way too expansive. For example: anyone who lies about being Irish on St. Patrick's Day is libeling and slandering millions of Irish-Americans.

BravadoGT: Here's one to make the left's head explode:

What if it was a CORPORATION that falsely portrayed itself as a medal recipient? What then?

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Lumpmoose: #2 seems way too expansive. For example: anyone who lies about being Irish on St. Patrick's Day is libeling and slandering millions of Irish-Americans.

Well, that's not quite the same, since being Irish isn't inherently an "achievement" or something which is connected with being honorable (yes, I know, insert joke here), while winning a medal from the military is. So lying about winning a medal is inherently slanderous.

So the argument would go at least. I agree with you that it doesn't work.

DamnYankees: I can see two lines of argument here:

1) This law is unconstitutional and unnecessary, since common law fraud should cover any situation in which someone uses this law to gain a material advantage.

2) The law is constitutional in that portraying oneself as a medal winner while not being so is an act of libel and slander against people who actually are, so there's nothing wrong with making it intrinsically illegal.

I tend to side with argument #1 here.

I'm glad you agree with #1, since #2 could be refuted by my 9th grader, and he's getting a C in Social Studies right now. It is logically impossible to libel/slander another person without making a direct, knowingly incorrect statement about THAT PERSON. This entire law is fundamentally retarded, and would have been taken out behind the barn and shot if it weren't for regressive idiotic politics.

That being said, if you falsely claim to be a service member, you're a dick, and it should be legal for people to put your face and name on a billboard with "HE'S A DICK" in 4000 point type.

dahmers love zombie: It is logically impossible to libel/slander another person without making a direct, knowingly incorrect statement about THAT PERSON.

That's not true. You can slander someone by making a claim about a group of people. The line between when a group because too large that it makes libel against any individual members impossible is not a firm one, but its there.

AuntNotAnt: BravadoGT: Here's one to make the left's head explode:

What if it was a CORPORATION that falsely portrayed itself as a medal recipient? What then?

...is this really a left/right issue?

Everything is a left/right issue.

EVERY. THING.

trotsky: Cake Hunter: As the first man to walk on the moon, i say f*ck em. Hands off my moon money.

As the second man on the moon, I call shenanigans. And you owe me some moon money, moontherfarker.



"No deal McCutcheon, that moon money is mine!"

I'm in the military. if some guy wants to lie at a bar about getting a metal for free drinks or to try and get laid, more power to him.

If they are trying to get VA benefits or money from some of the different veteran benefits, that is obviously fraud.

dahmers love zombie: DamnYankees: I can see two lines of argument here:

1) This law is unconstitutional and unnecessary, since common law fraud should cover any situation in which someone uses this law to gain a material advantage.

2) The law is constitutional in that portraying oneself as a medal winner while not being so is an act of libel and slander against people who actually are, so there's nothing wrong with making it intrinsically illegal.

I tend to side with argument #1 here.

I'm glad you agree with #1, since #2 could be refuted by my 9th grader, and he's getting a C in Social Studies right now. It is logically impossible to libel/slander another person without making a direct, knowingly incorrect statement about THAT PERSON. This entire law is fundamentally retarded, and would have been taken out behind the barn and shot if it weren't for regressive idiotic politics.

That being said, if you falsely claim to be a service member, you're a dick, and it should be legal for people to put your face and name on a billboard with "HE'S A DICK" in 4000 point type.

Actually there are differing standards for libel and slander depending on state law and how well known the victim is, and whether the matter under discussion is one of public concern. You can also have a reckless (ie, not knowingly) disregard for the truth and slander someone. Look up "actual malice."

Theaetetus: kingoomieiii: While I agree with you, any political candidate lying about getting a given medal should be removed from the ballot without recourse. No warnings.

Why? Free speech doesn't apply to political candidates? Since one of the purposes of free speech is protect political speech, that seems backwards.

How about just widely publish the lie?
"Presidential candidate who falsely claimed to have a Medal of Honor Joe Smith (R) stated today in a press conference..."
"In recent polls, Presidential candidate who falsely claimed to have a Medal of Honor Joe Smith's (R) popularity has been dropping precipitously..."
"Advisors have been leaving the campaign of Presidential candidate who falsely claimed to have a Medal of Honor Joe Smith (R) in droves after he falsely claimed to have a Medal of Honor..."

Honestly, saying that we need a statute to address this seems to be a heavy-handed solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Yes, that is the best solution, the most simple, and it avoids that whole 'abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press' thingy. If only that line of thinking could be applied more often in politics. However our society rewards politicians who attack small issues with a sledgehammer, thus making it worse for everyone.