"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute."

Can you imagine a presidential candidate talking that way today?


Penn for iGod!

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to ruffle any feathers or anything, but if you are passionate about not collecting stamps...I mean, if your not collecting stamps rises to the sort of obsession that drives you to avoid all things stamp-like and immediately divest yourself of any stamps that happen to fall into your possession...I mean, if when you receive a letter, the first thing you do is to rip the stamp from it and throw that stamp away so that it spends as little time as possible in your vicinity...if *that's* true, well, then I'd say that you do have something like a not-collecting-stamps hobby. For what is a hobby if not some degree of specific obsession?

It says Roman Catholic on my dog tags, but I haven't enjoyed the crispy wafers and Pinot Jesus since I was 10.

Pocket Ninja: Well, I certainly wouldn't want to ruffle any feathers or anything, but if you are passionate about not collecting stamps...I mean, if your not collecting stamps rises to the sort of obsession that drives you to avoid all things stamp-like and immediately divest yourself of any stamps that happen to fall into your possession...I mean, if when you receive a letter, the first thing you do is to rip the stamp from it and throw that stamp away so that it spends as little time as possible in your vicinity...if *that's* true, well, then I'd say that you do have something like a not-collecting-stamps hobby. For what is a hobby if not some degree of specific obsession?

Guy's got a point.

You got your religion on the atheism. No, you got your atheism on my religion.

It's not a religion. It IS a belief however, if you're absolutely sure that no higher power exists, never has, and never will, because such a proposition is unprovable. And people can certainly reach religious-like zeal in their beliefs, whether we're talking about god(s), Roswell aliens, or whether Hurst's shot really crossed the line in the '66 world cup final.

I believe I'll have another drink!

Pocket Ninja: ...I mean, if when you receive a letter, the first thing you do is to rip the stamp from it and throw that stamp away so that it spends as little time as possible in your vicinity...if *that's* true, well, then I'd say that you do have something like a not-collecting-stamps hobby.

I would think that would be more of a "destroying stamps" hobby.

I f*cking hate stamps.

Writing books and articles about one's 'non-belief' isn't very hobby like at all.

GraphicAddiction: Writing books and articles about one's 'non-belief' isn't very hobby like at all.

{snort}

Every time I hear someone spew prosperity gospel crap during one of their campaign speeches, I get this urge to yell 'DEUS VULT' and burn them at the stake in the town square.

is that wrong? should I not do that?

Why would we do that?

Breaking them into smaller groups? You mean like pulling their arms and legs off? Seems a bit strong doesn't it.

Pocket Ninja: Well, I certainly wouldn't want to ruffle any feathers or anything, but if you are passionate about not collecting stamps...I mean, if your not collecting stamps rises to the sort of obsession that drives you to avoid all things stamp-like and immediately divest yourself of any stamps that happen to fall into your possession...I mean, if when you receive a letter, the first thing you do is to rip the stamp from it and throw that stamp away so that it spends as little time as possible in your vicinity...if *that's* true, well, then I'd say that you do have something like a not-collecting-stamps hobby. For what is a hobby if not some degree of specific obsession?

And that has what to do with atheism?

Bloody William: It's more like not having a hobby when everyone has a hobby, and they're so dedicated to their hobby that they won't shut up about it and arrange their life around that hobby. When that happens, especially in small communities where everyone shares the same hobby and regularly gathers to work on that hobby, it sticks out when you're not part of the hobby gathering and would rather just chill out. So they start talking about how weird you are for not having a hobby, and in the context of having a hobby, you stand out as your own group.

The bastards!

I remember an Obama speech where he listed religions and included on the list "non-believers."

/liked being acknowledged

Bears repeating.

shouldn't you be breaking up "non-believers" into their subcategories too? Atheists, agnostics, trolls, idiots, etc?

FTFA: Christian used to be a throwaway word. People didn't use it very much. People didn't start self-labelling or getting labelled "Christian" until the last part of the 20th century. Before that, you might identify as a Baptist, or a Southern Baptist or a Methodist. But there wasn't one identifier that put you in a fold with all the other believers.



Ah, so you don't have any actual knowledge of American or world religious history, Penn? Because that's good to know. I'll pocket this weapons-grade stupidity for the next time someone slobbers all over you as a source. Go read a farking history book you moran.

Pocket Ninja: Well, I certainly wouldn't want to ruffle any feathers or anything, but if you are passionate about not collecting stamps...I mean, if your not collecting stamps rises to the sort of obsession that drives you to avoid all things stamp-like and immediately divest yourself of any stamps that happen to fall into your possession...I mean, if when you receive a letter, the first thing you do is to rip the stamp from it and throw that stamp away so that it spends as little time as possible in your vicinity...if *that's* true, well, then I'd say that you do have something like a not-collecting-stamps hobby. For what is a hobby if not some degree of specific obsession?

Some are passionate non-collectors. And those people are annoying, but they have their rights. Rights protect the annoying as well as the just. I know this because I am both annoying and an apathetic non-collector. I like some stamps, but not all stamps. I don't see anything wrong with them as long as I don't have to pay for your stamp-collecting or listen to you tell my why the 3-cent mallard is better than the 29-cent blue-winged teal. If you want to collect stamps, that's fine. But respect my decision not to collect stamps. Except the Star Wars ones, which I will collect, because those are cool.

/no wonder the Post Office is in trouble.

GraphicAddiction: Writing books and articles about one's 'non-belief' isn't very hobby like at all.

No, but it doesn't make atheism a "religion" either. Atheists have no rituals that bind them in a form of symbolic somatic and cognitive understanding. All religions have those. Nor is simply saying "NO!" an ethos of any kind. Humanism or Aristotelian virtue ethics, yes, but that is definitely another story.

MaxxLarge: Bears repeating.

[pictures.mastermarf.com image 442x675]

But it's still a hairstyle if you choose to shave your head, isn't it?

"If you start breaking Christians up into their smaller groups, non-believers come close to being the dominant religion

AH HA!! IN YOUR FACE, ATHEISTS WHO CLAIM ATHEISM IS NEVER THE SOURCE OF VIOLENCE!

HERE WE HAVE A CLARION CALL FROM AN ATHEIST WHO WANTS TO BREAK UP CHRISTIANS INTO LITTLE PIECES SO ATHEISM CAN DOMINATE!!!!! BLAAARRGHHH!!!!!!

Somacandra: Ah, so you don't have any actual knowledge of American or world religious history, Penn? Because that's good to know. I'll pocket this weapons-grade stupidity for the next time someone slobbers all over you as a source. Go read a farking history book you moran.

True, the generic term "Christian" has continually been used since the foundation of the religion. There is a point to be made that most people identified with their particular brand of Christianity rather than Christianity in general. Growing up my family was Southern Baptist, other kinds of Baptists were getting Jesus wrong. Other Protestant religions were just plain wrong and Catholics were going straight to hell.

Now all the little sects of Christianity have joined together in mutual hate and fear!

GraphicAddiction: Writing books and articles about one's 'non-belief' isn't very hobby like at all.

A book about the things I don't believe in would be so boring I wouldn't even want to read it.

It would also be very, very long.

serial_crusher: shouldn't you be breaking up "non-believers" into their subcategories too?

Depends whether your objective is accuracy or persuasion.

Using imperfect proxies in the GSS, agnostics and deists look to both run on about the same scale as Southern Baptists or United Methodist, except the former pair are rising, not falling. Atheists are about half that. They're not as significant a demographic as the Catholics that way, but definitely larger than some of the Protestant denominations. Of course, if you start looking at the 20-30yo generational cohort, the agnostics and deists are each larger than any Christian fraction except Catholics, "No Denomination" Christians, and "I dunno which" Baptists -- and the last group seems to be falling. (Atheists seem to be growing more slowly.)

That said, as far as I can tell from the GSS, ARIS 2008, and Pew 2008 data, the 8% figure Penn is throwing around is

Somacandra: Atheists have no rituals that bind them in a form of symbolic somatic and cognitive understanding. All religions have those.

What's your stance on Dale Cannon's "Six Ways"?

I've been witness to, and part of many bible bashings in my time. Can you imagine if this country became a Christian Nation? What sect would it be? Who would say which translation of the bible is correct?

These guys would tear each other to pieces so fast in an effort to declare which church was THE church of the nation.

It'd be a civil war in less than 6 months. Try convincing a Baptist that God came down and gave a kid gold plates to go along with the bible. Or convince the Jehovah Witness that they have to accept ALL of the book of Revelations. Or convince the Gideons that they have to use the entire Old Testament.

It'd be so much fun to watch.

Everyone I've ever known personally or even heard about who were loudest about being Christian were the least Christian people I've ever known. Gandhi was one of the most Christian people in history but he still went to Hell because he wasn't Christian. He should have adopted the "fark you, I got mine" mentality that most people who scream about the US being a Christian nation have adopted.

You know who else wasn't a Christian?

Doesn't that also make hatred of atheism a belief in of itself, making Christians believe in more than one religion?

vernonFL: You know who else wasn't a Christian?

[www.dst-corp.com image 548x780]

Sure Jesus was born a Jew but according to the Catholic church, he was also God, as well as the son of God. So he must have worshiped himself, making him also a Christian and at the same time just really thought a lot of himself. Which would probably be some form of split personality where he...Christ, Christian mythology gives me a headache. Nevermind.

FTFA: Atheists are growing way fast, from under two per cent to about eight per cent just in this century.

Wow, we've gone from 2% to 8% in the last ten years? I'm going to have to give up being an atheist now that it's becoming popular.

Jesus, being a devout Jew, did not worship idols or statues





Oh shiate

timujin: Wow, we've gone from 2% to 8% in the last ten years? I'm going to have to give up being an atheist now that it's becoming popular.

farking corporate atheism.

Interesting.



Now can the tea partiers join in?

Oops. Wrong tab. doh!

The fact that there are so many religions means that...

/go ahead, fill in the blanks

BunkyBrewman: The fact that there are so many religions means that...

/go ahead, fill in the blanks

The fact that there are so many religions means that...

Paul Lynde for the win!

I don't know if I'm supposed to tip the mohel anymore?

LAUGHLAUGHLAUGH!

When he finally got around to talking about religion, here's what he said: "I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute."

Can you imagine a presidential candidate talking that way today?

Not a Republican, that's for sure.

ultraholland: This is like breaking down people who are fans of Lord of the Rings, Twilight, or Harry Potter: they're all followers of fantasy.

...marginally less likely to start wars between the factions. Still, it's not a bad parallel.

NewportBarGuy: Pinot Jesus

I would so buy a wine named that