Now let's find a way to avert the even greater disaster of the rest of Obamacare by repealing the law and enacting in its place a set of market-based reforms of Medicare, Medicaid, and a private insurance sector badly distorted by decades of ill-conceived federal policies.

because all services MUST be profitable

As conservative as I am, universal health care is something whose time has come. Living overseas in a country that has it for enough time to really get a feel for what it's like to live under the "oppression" of such a system, I'm convinced that Americans who continue to reject it are simply ignorant, if not functionally retarded.

I see the doctor I want to see any time I want. I can buy supplemental insurance on my own and my employer has an incentive to buy group coverage in order to provide a competitive compensation package. The insurance companies must compete by providing services beyond health care, such as reduced fees for insurance company-owned resorts and hotels (in a couple weeks I'll be taking a short vacation at one of these hotels at a rate of approximately 30 dollars a night).

Are my taxes higher? Sure. But because the taxes are spread across the entire population, people who have little means get coverage when otherwise they wouldn't, and the people who are better off pay a larger share and benefit with a healthier population to man their factories and offices. That's not to say it's all roses, but on the whole it provides a great amount of benefit to a great number of people.

Obamacare is a terrible law and terrible implementation of universal health coverage. It will be good to tear it down, but it must be replaced with something better. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a step forward.

AverageAmericanGuy: As conservative as I am, universal health care is something whose time has come.

Yes it has.

Obamacare is a terrible law and terrible implementation of universal health coverage.

Yes it is.

But then again, what did you expect compromise?

So the Democrats did something mature and responsible, in light of facts and evidence?

This is bad news...for Obama.

http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/10/class-act-and-good-governme n t (new window)

"What happened here is that government worked exactly the way it ought to. The CLASS Act was passed in a fog of rosy estimates and emotional appeals. Even though it was a liberal program promoted by a longtime liberal icon (Ted Kennedy), HHS analysts eventually concluded that its conservative critics were right and the program as passed was flawed. So they killed it.

This is how we all want government to work. And it turns out that Obama agrees. This is apparently how he wants government to work too, and it's a pretty clear demonstration that Obama isn't the kind of hyperpartisan extreme lefty that conservatives like to paint him as. He's a guy who wants government to function well and honestly, and if it doesn't, he's willing to shut down a program that doesn't work even though it upsets his own party and provides campaign fodder to his opponents. When was the last time a Republican president did anything like that?"

"Congress herby extends Medicare to all citizens."

There. Fixed.

So the democrats pull a big turd, that the republicans long ago pointed out, in a massive of a pile of shiat and and they're acting responsible? The pile of shiat is still massive problem folks.

HeadKase: AverageAmericanGuy: As conservative as I am, universal health care is something whose time has come. Living overseas in a country that has it for enough time to really get a feel for what it's like to live under the "oppression" of such a system, I'm convinced that Americans who continue to reject it are simply ignorant, if not functionally retarded.

I see the doctor I want to see any time I want. I can buy supplemental insurance on my own and my employer has an incentive to buy group coverage in order to provide a competitive compensation package. The insurance companies must compete by providing services beyond health care, such as reduced fees for insurance company-owned resorts and hotels (in a couple weeks I'll be taking a short vacation at one of these hotels at a rate of approximately 30 dollars a night).

Are my taxes higher? Sure. But because the taxes are spread across the entire population, people who have little means get coverage when otherwise they wouldn't, and the people who are better off pay a larger share and benefit with a healthier population to man their factories and offices. That's not to say it's all roses, but on the whole it provides a great amount of benefit to a great number of people.

Obamacare is a terrible law and terrible implementation of universal health coverage. It will be good to tear it down, but it must be replaced with something better. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a step forward.

Holy crap. A voice of reason on Fark? Get the fark out!

Not only that, but it's coming from AverageAmericanGuy! I think he just throws the occasional reasonable post in to put us off our guard; he can troll us even harder later.

xanadian: AverageAmericanGuy: Obamacare is a terrible law and terrible implementation of universal health coverage. It will be good to tear it down, but it must be replaced with something better. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a step forward.

I concur here. Honestly, there are SOME things I'd like to see...such as a national clearinghouse so you can buy your health insurance from ANYWHERE (competition helps drive down prices). And I liked the single-payer thingee, but that was stricken down. Even if we just had the clearinghouse, it would've given consumers a lot more power in their choice of health insurance, and maybe even helped to drive down the cost of health care (of course, then there's tort reform, but that's really a pipe dream).

The problem I see with Obamacare is.......

sinschild: Obamacare is a terrible law and terrible implementation of universal health coverage.

Yes it is.

But then again, what did you expect compromise?

Seems Obama tries so hard to be "bipartisan" and unifying, and it just ends up in disaster. I like the "my way or highway" approach he's been taking lately. He should've done that AGES ago.

Because dictatorships are so fun! And WTF is this crap about checks & balances anyway?

glassa: xanadian: AverageAmericanGuy: Obamacare is a terrible law and terrible implementation of universal health coverage. It will be good to tear it down, but it must be replaced with something better. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a step forward.

I concur here. Honestly, there are SOME things I'd like to see...such as a national clearinghouse so you can buy your health insurance from ANYWHERE (competition helps drive down prices). And I liked the single-payer thingee, but that was stricken down. Even if we just had the clearinghouse, it would've given consumers a lot more power in their choice of health insurance, and maybe even helped to drive down the cost of health care (of course, then there's tort reform, but that's really a pipe dream).

The problem I see with Obamacare is.......

sinschild: Obamacare is a terrible law and terrible implementation of universal health coverage.

Yes it is.

But then again, what did you expect compromise?

Seems Obama tries so hard to be "bipartisan" and unifying, and it just ends up in disaster. I like the "my way or highway" approach he's been taking lately. He should've done that AGES ago.

Because dictatorships are so fun! And WTF is this crap about checks & balances anyway?

YEah, because that's totally the same as firm leadership and standing up for all the things the people that put him in office to do.

/obligatory Elections have consequences.

astro716: So the Democrats did something mature and responsible, in light of facts and evidence?

This is bad news...for Obama.

The mature and responsible thing would have been to avoid passing that piece of crap legislation. There could have been, as somebody already mentioned, an extension of Medicare. Democrats wasted more than a year on a huge mistake.

Another example of leadership that will be forgotten because it doesn't fit the narrative.

There have been a lot. Maybe a list similar the things that are enemies of the GOP would be in order.

Here are just 6 of the things Obama has done that have shown leadership by doing what's right, not popular.

Stimulus. It created a lot of jobs- Nearly 3 million by most reputable accounts. Extremely unpopular to this day.
Calling for repeal of Don't ask Don't Tell
Libya no fly zone and rebel support.
Trade agreement with South Korea
Takeover of GM, Chrysler. Saved hundreds of thousands of jobs despite being mostly opposed by the public.
The method he used to get Osama. Flat out put his Presidency on the line with that one.

"America will always do the right thing - but only after having exhausted all other possibilities"

Winston Churchill


We may have to pull the for profit system through a Rube Goldberg like series of painful contortions, but after much heartache and needless expense, we will eventually have a single-payer system.

It's going to happen because it's good for business and tangentially good for actual human Americans.

Once the healthcare exchanges start to get set up in 2014 it will be the much needed pretense for small business owners top shift the health care burden of their employees onto the state. This will happen en masse and the economics of scale will lay bare the obvious advantage of maximizing the pool of individuals in any one interdependent cohort.

aagrajag: Not only that, but it's coming from AverageAmericanGuy! I think he just throws the occasional reasonable post in to put us off our guard; he can troll us even harder later.

Dude probably signed into the wrong alt.

glassa: xanadian: AverageAmericanGuy: Obamacare is a terrible law and terrible implementation of universal health coverage. It will be good to tear it down, but it must be replaced with something better. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a step forward.

I concur here. Honestly, there are SOME things I'd like to see...such as a national clearinghouse so you can buy your health insurance from ANYWHERE (competition helps drive down prices). And I liked the single-payer thingee, but that was stricken down. Even if we just had the clearinghouse, it would've given consumers a lot more power in their choice of health insurance, and maybe even helped to drive down the cost of health care (of course, then there's tort reform, but that's really a pipe dream).

The problem I see with Obamacare is.......

sinschild: Obamacare is a terrible law and terrible implementation of universal health coverage.

Yes it is.

But then again, what did you expect compromise?

Seems Obama tries so hard to be "bipartisan" and unifying, and it just ends up in disaster. I like the "my way or highway" approach he's been taking lately. He should've done that AGES ago.

Because dictatorships are so fun! And WTF is this crap about checks & balances anyway?

If a President with overwhelming majorities in both chambers following an election with a huge popular mandate cannot pass his centerpiece legislative proposal due solely to obstruction from the minority party, then it isn't a matter of checks and balances. The system as it stands is fundamentally unbalanced.

The minority party has every incentive to throw as many roadblocks as possible with very little political risk because arcane political maneuvering doesn't make the front page.

AverageAmericanGuy: As conservative as I am, universal health care is something whose time has come. Living overseas in a country that has it for enough time to really get a feel for what it's like to live under the "oppression" of such a system, I'm convinced that Americans who continue to reject it are simply ignorant, if not functionally retarded.

It's pretty simple. Many healthy people just can't think rationally about healthcare.

On some subconscious level, the instinct is to go "I'm healthy. So I don't want ANYTHING changed."

Satanic_Hamster: aagrajag: Not only that, but it's coming from AverageAmericanGuy! I think he just throws the occasional reasonable post in to put us off our guard; he can troll us even harder later.
Dude probably signed into the wrong alt.

That must get so tiring. I don't understand how people can stand to do that stuff.

astro716: So the Democrats did something mature and responsible, in light of facts and evidence?

No, no, no. The takeaway is covered in the article here:

Having assured Congress for over a year that the program could be made to work, HHS Secretary Sebelius said today that "Despite our best analytical efforts, I do not see a viable path forward for CLASS implementation at this time." In essence: We tried our best, but the statute makes no sense.

Get used to that excuse. This confirmation that Obamacare cannot in fact defy the laws of mathematics and accounting should serve as a warning regarding the implementation of the broader law, most of which would begin in 2014 if it is not repealed by then.

You see, the inability to implement a specific long-term care program for the elderly shows that a Massachusetts-style semi-universal health care system is impossible to implement. Because... well, socialism, I guess.

Ok, after having read the first 3 paragraphs of that abortion of an article... anyone have any clue what the hell this article is about?

The verbal diarrhea that made it on to the page through the screaming rage of the conservative asswad who wrote it made it absolutely impossible to comprehend.

/Or maybe there's a non-partisan thingy somehow that I can read.
//Anyone help?

Clicked on NRO...my computer is now unclean.

buckler: AverageAmericanGuy: As conservative as I am, universal health care is something whose time has come. Living overseas in a country that has it for enough time to really get a feel for what it's like to live under the "oppression" of such a system, I'm convinced that Americans who continue to reject it are simply ignorant, if not functionally retarded.

I see the doctor I want to see any time I want. I can buy supplemental insurance on my own and my employer has an incentive to buy group coverage in order to provide a competitive compensation package. The insurance companies must compete by providing services beyond health care, such as reduced fees for insurance company-owned resorts and hotels (in a couple weeks I'll be taking a short vacation at one of these hotels at a rate of approximately 30 dollars a night).

Are my taxes higher? Sure. But because the taxes are spread across the entire population, people who have little means get coverage when otherwise they wouldn't, and the people who are better off pay a larger share and benefit with a healthier population to man their factories and offices. That's not to say it's all roses, but on the whole it provides a great amount of benefit to a great number of people.

Obamacare is a terrible law and terrible implementation of universal health coverage. It will be good to tear it down, but it must be replaced with something better. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a step forward.

If I might ask, where is/was this?

Japan. I'm on the go today, so I won't be responding much, but if anyone has any serious questions I can field, I'll try to respond.

/iPhone Farking is a pain

StopLurkListen: http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/10/class-act-and-good-governme n t (new window)

"What happened here is that government worked exactly the way it ought to. The CLASS Act was passed in a fog of rosy estimates and emotional appeals. Even though it was a liberal program promoted by a longtime liberal icon (Ted Kennedy), HHS analysts eventually concluded that its conservative critics were right and the program as passed was flawed. So they killed it.

This is how we all want government to work. And it turns out that Obama agrees. This is apparently how he wants government to work too, and it's a pretty clear demonstration that Obama isn't the kind of hyperpartisan extreme lefty that conservatives like to paint him as. He's a guy who wants government to function well and honestly, and if it doesn't, he's willing to shut down a program that doesn't work even though it upsets his own party and provides campaign fodder to his opponents. When was the last time a Republican president did anything like that?"

Well Bush Sr. at least caved on his predecessor's insane tax policies and compromised. For that he was run out on a rail and called a RINO. The new Republican mantra is instead of admitting wrong, bluster as loud as possible that you're a victim of the liberal media and make the lie the truth by repetition.

AverageAmericanGuy: buckler: AverageAmericanGuy: As conservative as I am, universal health care is something whose time has come. Living overseas in a country that has it for enough time to really get a feel for what it's like to live under the "oppression" of such a system, I'm convinced that Americans who continue to reject it are simply ignorant, if not functionally retarded.

I see the doctor I want to see any time I want. I can buy supplemental insurance on my own and my employer has an incentive to buy group coverage in order to provide a competitive compensation package. The insurance companies must compete by providing services beyond health care, such as reduced fees for insurance company-owned resorts and hotels (in a couple weeks I'll be taking a short vacation at one of these hotels at a rate of approximately 30 dollars a night).

Are my taxes higher? Sure. But because the taxes are spread across the entire population, people who have little means get coverage when otherwise they wouldn't, and the people who are better off pay a larger share and benefit with a healthier population to man their factories and offices. That's not to say it's all roses, but on the whole it provides a great amount of benefit to a great number of people.

Obamacare is a terrible law and terrible implementation of universal health coverage. It will be good to tear it down, but it must be replaced with something better. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a step forward.

If I might ask, where is/was this?

Japan. I'm on the go today, so I won't be responding much, but if anyone has any serious questions I can field, I'll try to respond.

/iPhone Farking is a pain

Japan does have pretty good health care and an excellent health insurance system, but it's not without its flaws. The biggest one is probably that their strict price regulation system puts a ton of pressure on medical providers to increase their volume just to make enough money to run a practice. They honestly could stand to spend another percentage or two of GDP on health care and strongly benefit from this.

StopLurkListen: http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/10/class-act-and-good-governme n t (new window)

"What happened here is that government worked exactly the way it ought to. The CLASS Act was passed in a fog of rosy estimates and emotional appeals. Even though it was a liberal program promoted by a longtime liberal icon (Ted Kennedy), HHS analysts eventually concluded that its conservative critics were right and the program as passed was flawed. So they killed it.

This is how we all want government to work. And it turns out that Obama agrees. This is apparently how he wants government to work too, and it's a pretty clear demonstration that Obama isn't the kind of hyperpartisan extreme lefty that conservatives like to paint him as. He's a guy who wants government to function well and honestly, and if it doesn't, he's willing to shut down a program that doesn't work even though it upsets his own party and provides campaign fodder to his opponents. When was the last time a Republican president did anything like that?"

Obama did nothing. Sebelius did.

jake3988: Ok, after having read the first 3 paragraphs of that abortion of an article... anyone have any clue what the hell this article is about?

The verbal diarrhea that made it on to the page through the screaming rage of the conservative asswad who wrote it made it absolutely impossible to comprehend.

/Or maybe there's a non-partisan thingy somehow that I can read.
//Anyone help?

CLASS was a pile of shiat that never had a chance of being revenue neutral. 18k a year annuity essentially for 5 years if pay in.

jake3988: /Or maybe there's a non-partisan thingy somehow that I can read.
//Anyone help?

Non-partisany thingy here.

TLDR: Legislation said CLASS ACT, a long-term care program, had to be actuarially solvent to implement. Legislation made that impossible. Had to can it. Deficit reduction over the next ten years is reduced.

I'm confused and uncomfortable. There's too much reasonable discussion here.

THIS IS NOT THE FARK I KNOW!

*Internet Speak*!!! You mean a bill that was passed on the final day of the first round of the NCAA Tournament isn't living up to expectations??? Shocked, Shocked, I tell you!

LordPomposity: [img692.imageshack.us image 640x79]

Yes, I think we all know that if you look at right-wing and conspiracy theory sites enough the thousands of web bugs out there will put some type of bullshiat that just wants you to click on it. Thanks for being an enlightened hero that tells the world about it.

/Oooo, I can get the new HP Ink multipacks *click*

Fine, extend the minimum age for Medicare all the way down to 0.

Oh, and AverageAmericanGuy, if you go back into the cave spouting that line of reasoning the prisoners chained to the wall are going to kill you for suggesting that the images on the wall aren't just shadows.

madgonad: Fine, extend the minimum age for Medicare all the way down to 0.

Oh, and AverageAmericanGuy, if you go back into the cave spouting that line of reasoning the prisoners chained to the wall are going to kill you for suggesting that the images on the wall aren't just shadows.

There was Medicare all the way down to "0", it was called Medicaid (pop). It was just that it was handled more on a state level and the Feds didn't like that they couldn't make money off it.

/why is Medicaid never, EVER mentioned?
//oh that's right, old people vote more than young people
///sorry

ole prophet: *Internet Speak*!!! You mean a bill that was passed on the final day of the first round of the NCAA Tournament isn't living up to expectations??? Shocked, Shocked, I tell you!

LordPomposity: [img692.imageshack.us image 640x79]

Yes, I think we all know that if you look at right-wing and conspiracy theory sites enough the thousands of web bugs out there will put some type of bullshiat that just wants you to click on it. Thanks for being an enlightened hero that tells the world about it.

/Oooo, I can get the new HP Ink multipacks *click*

You make the process sound so much more time-consuming than it is.

Notabunny: "Congress herby extends Medicare to all citizens."

There. Fixed.

No, not fixed. Not unless reimbursements are jacked up (more tax money.) Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements are not high enough to cover both the fixed and variable costs of running a medical facility. That's why hospitals can't stay in business where most of the patients are on government care. That's why poor areas do not have sufficient quantities of medical facilities, while suburban areas are overserved. What do you think happened to St. Vincent's in New York?

As things stand today, a viable hospital, even non-profit, has to have a percentage of its patients on private insurance or self-pay to keep the lights on.

Misch: Satanic_Hamster: Dude probably signed into the wrong alt.

It is an alt.

Wife-like typing detected.

Oh, I know. Have him tagged as a troll account.

cryinoutloud: That must get so tiring. I don't understand how people can stand to do that stuff.

I suspect it's because they're assholes who weren't hugged enough as children.

LordPomposity: ole prophet: *Internet Speak*!!! You mean a bill that was passed on the final day of the first round of the NCAA Tournament isn't living up to expectations??? Shocked, Shocked, I tell you!

LordPomposity: [img692.imageshack.us image 640x79]

Yes, I think we all know that if you look at right-wing and conspiracy theory sites enough the thousands of web bugs out there will put some type of bullshiat that just wants you to click on it. Thanks for being an enlightened hero that tells the world about it.

/Oooo, I can get the new HP Ink multipacks *click*

You make the process sound so much more time-consuming than it is.

Somebody had to code it at some point. :)

StopLurkListen: http://motherjones.com

I will stop you there.