Ancient Galaxy

you need more starch in your light

Warps my underwear too. I don't know what was in my yakisoba last night, but geez.

Texada Timewarp is warping my mind right now...

minitrue noram: Texada Timewarp is warping my mind right now...

that shiat is fun

The show Dark Matters warped my mind with its silliness.

What if dark matter is regular matter (or antimatter) but it's in another dimension/universe and can only interact with this one through gravity?

jigger: What if dark matter is regular matter (or antimatter) but it's in another dimension/universe and can only interact with this one through gravity?

So I'm not the only one that thinks that. Thank God. I have this thought that dark matter represents the gravitational center of all of the local universes which are similar/close enough to influence each other.

There is no dark matter.

What we are seeing are time space distortions caused by the fact our entire universe is being engulfed by an enormously massively gargantuan black hole

Mocked and silenced physicists that know the truth estimate all matter in our region of the universe will be ripped apart by tidal forces 12:21am December 12 2012

/If you read this without your standard issue tinfoil hat, keep on the lookout for government spies disguised as house pets.
//they can't scan your brain if you hold your breath and don't look them in the eyes

darthdrafter: jigger: What if dark matter is regular matter (or antimatter) but it's in another dimension/universe and can only interact with this one through gravity?

So I'm not the only one that thinks that. Thank God. I have this thought that dark matter represents the gravitational center of all of the local universes which are similar/close enough to influence each other.

By definition, other universes don't influence each other. That's why they call them "universes". The clue is in the "uni" part.

So to jigger's cockamamie comment: what would be the difference between dark matter that exists in this universe and only interacts through gravity versus matter in another universe/dimension that only interacts through gravity? If it interacts with our universe through gravity, by definition it is part of our universe.

And to darthdrafter's comment: Even if universes could influence each other -- and by definition, they don't -- please explain how the distribution of dark matter appears to be influenced only by the visible matter in our own universe, but not by these other imaginary universes?

Stop, OK? Seriously, just stop. Nothing you learned from watching Star Trek:TNG, Farscape, or Babylon 5 is a remotely useful contribution to this discussion.

/We now return you to your regularly scheduled snark.

it sure as hell warps time, since these news are not really news.

czetie: darthdrafter: jigger: What if dark matter is regular matter (or antimatter) but it's in another dimension/universe and can only interact with this one through gravity?

So I'm not the only one that thinks that. Thank God. I have this thought that dark matter represents the gravitational center of all of the local universes which are similar/close enough to influence each other.

By definition, other universes don't influence each other. That's why they call them "universes". The clue is in the "uni" part.

So to jigger's cockamamie comment: what would be the difference between dark matter that exists in this universe and only interacts through gravity versus matter in another universe/dimension that only interacts through gravity? If it interacts with our universe through gravity, by definition it is part of our universe.

And to darthdrafter's comment: Even if universes could influence each other -- and by definition, they don't -- please explain how the distribution of dark matter appears to be influenced only by the visible matter in our own universe, but not by these other imaginary universes?

Stop, OK? Seriously, just stop. Nothing you learned from watching Star Trek:TNG, Farscape, or Babylon 5 is a remotely useful contribution to this discussion.

/We now return you to your regularly scheduled snark.

Well thank goodness you were here. I was afraid we wouldn't have someone who knew everything to clear up any misconceptions us silly humans might have had about the nature of the universe.

Boudyro: czetie: darthdrafter: jigger: What if dark matter is regular matter (or antimatter) but it's in another dimension/universe and can only interact with this one through gravity?

So I'm not the only one that thinks that. Thank God. I have this thought that dark matter represents the gravitational center of all of the local universes which are similar/close enough to influence each other.

By definition, other universes don't influence each other. That's why they call them "universes". The clue is in the "uni" part.

So to jigger's cockamamie comment: what would be the difference between dark matter that exists in this universe and only interacts through gravity versus matter in another universe/dimension that only interacts through gravity? If it interacts with our universe through gravity, by definition it is part of our universe.

And to darthdrafter's comment: Even if universes could influence each other -- and by definition, they don't -- please explain how the distribution of dark matter appears to be influenced only by the visible matter in our own universe, but not by these other imaginary universes?

Stop, OK? Seriously, just stop. Nothing you learned from watching Star Trek:TNG, Farscape, or Babylon 5 is a remotely useful contribution to this discussion.

/We now return you to your regularly scheduled snark.

Well thank goodness you were here. I was afraid we wouldn't have someone who knew everything to clear up any misconceptions us silly humans might have had about the nature of the universe.

Well, duh. Asking questions and having creative thoughts are the signs of stupid people. Hypothesis's be damned! I guess I can go back to watching The Reality Show Show on the boob tube now. I'm not even gonna ask why there's no tube on the boob tube anymore. Because pondering is for our betters in life.

darthdrafter: jigger: What if dark matter is regular matter (or antimatter) but it's in another dimension/universe and can only interact with this one through gravity?

So I'm not the only one that thinks that. Thank God. I have this thought that dark matter represents the gravitational center of all of the local universes which are similar/close enough to influence each other.


What if?? What if?? Why... consider the possibilites...

Well, for one thing, the dark matter that is really regular matter in another universe would interact strongly with ITSELF and would therefore behave like REGULAR MATTER and slow down from friction eventually settling into a mass distribution in a galaxy that is like the regular matter
WHICH DOESN'T HAPPEN

Dark matter CANNOT be anything but some form of weakly interacting mass like a slow, massive neutrino -- and will you folks
PLEASE GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS
(can't have a dark matter thread without some clown talking about how its really anti-gravity or other universes or some other goddamn thing)

My goodness, dark matter sure brings out the assholes. Wow.

Years of frustration from seeing some specialist or another coming up with some hairbrained explanation of Dark Matter without giving ANY ATTENTION TO WHAT THE ACTUAL EVIDENCE IS outside their own specialty or personal obsession.

And then some hairbrained news outlet helpfully announcing the "TRUTH BEHIND DARK MATTER DISCOVERED"

GAAAAAAHH!

Doen't actually have to be a particle -- it could be some kind of weird gravitational thing but it has to be limited in spatial extent (like a particle), move in clouds, and it has to be weakly interactive but gravitationally interactive

That's what the evidence says. Really unambiguously.

And it can't be concentrated mass like micro black holes, because we'd see side effects from that
which we don't see.

OhioKnight: Years of frustration from seeing some specialist or another coming up with some hairbrained explanation of Dark Matter without giving ANY ATTENTION TO WHAT THE ACTUAL EVIDENCE IS outside their own specialty or personal obsession.

And then some hairbrained news outlet helpfully announcing the "TRUTH BEHIND DARK MATTER DISCOVERED"

GAAAAAAHH!



The internet is a mouthpiece for anyone to say pretty much anything they want. As a result, it tends to be full of idiots. Is it really worth getting so bent out of shape? Relax, you'll live longer.

/Know why I don't have any uclers? Because I know when to say "I don't give a fark"

somemoron: Hypothesis's be damned!

Just go all out: Hypothe's'i's's'. Just to be sure.

Breathe OhioKnight, breathe.

Dark matter falls hard into the Cosmology side of things which lends itself to making wild and even uniformed posts. But even if it is wrong, it is still fun to think about. But you can say "hey that's not right, and here's why" with out pitching a DRAMA hissy fit like a teenaged girl who just found out Bobby likes Wendy more than her.

It makes you look like a douche for one, and when it comes to dark matter all we really have is "this is happening for some reason, here's a guess (made to the best of our knowledge) as to why" In 200 years or so we may be looking back and saying "good guess" or we may be saying "Wow, that was really wrong. Thank goodness we invented the Zunar J-5 Krinklefont detector."

Know what else warps space?

regular matter.


Or so the rumor goes.



Also has anyone looked into the theory that dark matter has something to do with magic and/or unicorns?

ronin7: Know what else warps space?

regular matter.


Or so the rumor goes.



Also has anyone looked into the theory that dark matter has something to do with magic and/or unicorns?


I am going to put down the bottle now and read the article.

Hassan Ben Sobr: [static.howstuffworks.com image 400x228]

Ancient Galaxy

This thread needs more Galaxy pics.

OhioKnight: Years of frustration from seeing some specialist or another coming up with some hairbrained explanation of Dark Matter without giving ANY ATTENTION TO WHAT THE ACTUAL EVIDENCE IS outside their own specialty or personal obsession.

And then some hairbrained news outlet helpfully announcing the "TRUTH BEHIND DARK MATTER DISCOVERED"

GAAAAAAHH!

Boudyro is right OhioKnight, you need to calm down. Don't let my lack of a doctorate in quantum physics bother your obviously superior knowledge. Besides, as anyone on Fark knows, I lack a [TotalFark] ID and therefore my opinion doesn't count.

/World is only 6000 years old anyway, amirite?
//Does this count as my first troll if I didn't expect the troll effect beforehand?

/obligatory

darthdrafter: //Does this count as my first troll if I didn't expect the troll effect beforehand?

[whattrollswantyoutobelieve.jpg]

(Article is useless, 'light' matter, also called matter creates gravity, which warps light that travels past.)

/discovery is not a scientific site, it's for-profit.
//article is about gravitational lensing not dark matter
///'dark matter' is the subliminal effects of other dimensions onto our traditional 4
..gravity can be explained mathematically if you include 10/11 total dimensions
.god told herman cain to run for pres; he also told perry to run for pres; he also told Michelle Bachmann to run for pres; that god, what a prankster

urban.derelict: (Article is useless, 'light' matter, also called matter creates gravity, which warps light that travels past.)

/discovery is not a scientific site, it's for-profit.
//article is about gravitational lensing not dark matter
///'dark matter' is the subliminal effects of other dimensions onto our traditional 4
..gravity can be explained mathematically if you include 10/11 total dimensions
.god told herman cain to run for pres; he also told perry to run for pres; he also told Michelle Bachmann to run for pres; that god, what a prankster

While string theory is mathematically consistent (And when I say that I am putting my trust in people who study it since I sure as hell can't comprehend that kind of math), it has the disadvantage of being untestable with our current capabilities. Hopefully some day that will change.

At least I think string theory is what you were getting at. It makes a pretty big deal out of 'hidden' dimensions.

I sure hope all of our current theories are wrong. I want my warp drive dammit.

somemoron: Well, duh. Asking questions and having creative thoughts are the signs of stupid people. Hypothesis's be damned!

No, you weren't making a hypothesis. You were stringing together scientificy sounding words like "anti-matter" and "extra dimensions" more or less at random.

Asking questions would look something like this: "Can any of the various modified gravity proposals explain the warping of the galactic disk?" or "Can somebody explain these results without resorting to post-grad level maths?".

If this were, say, an art history thread, it would count as "creative thoughts" about as much as saying "The only sensible explanation for the Sistine Chapel is that Michaelangelo could levitate. Or possibly, he had the help of highly trained ceiling cats." But for some reason, when it comes to physics, people have no hesitation sharing their "creative thoughts"...

"Whoah, I`m totally going to make loads of shiat movies dude"

Zyng: At least I think string theory is what you were getting at.

Yeah, 'string theory' or 'superstring' theory (they both mean the same to me, being a non-scientist; professional scientists might take issue with that only to tell me they're not identical) is more believable than 'god' (which I discount completely, since, even if there were a god/s, they'd have to exist within some realm, and if they're existent in some realm, they're not 'all-powerful,' thus negating their godly status).

They're 'hidden' in the way that they, at this point, show no provable signs in our 4 known dimensions.

For those that don't know, it's dubbed 'string' (or 'superstring') theory because, imagine a 5th, unobservable dimension, with many strings hanging, imagine those strings are not hanging static, unmoving but swaying, if you will, to and fro; two or more strings are bound to make contact with one another. At that point (those points) on the strings where they made momentary contact... a single universe is created (big bang).



/it may very well have been pot use that 'caused' intelligent thought
//prove me wrong
///animals deliberately try to get 'high' (dogs eat grass -- I mean real grass -- hoping it will change their perception)
//we have cannabinoid receptors in our brains and throughout our bodies, proving without a doubt that our species (not even our species, but the mammalian species that eventually developed into humans), long, long ago, deliberately consumed it to the point where the species developed receptors for it; otherwise smoking weed would be pointless because it would have no effect
/it is food, you know

urban.derelict: For those that don't know, it's dubbed 'string' (or 'superstring') theory because, imagine a 5th, unobservable dimension, with many strings hanging, imagine those strings are not hanging static, unmoving but swaying, if you will, to and fro; two or more strings are bound to make contact with one another. At that point (those points) on the strings where they made momentary contact... a single universe is created (big bang).

I think you're confusing your strings with your p-branes.

czetie: somemoron: Well, duh. Asking questions and having creative thoughts are the signs of stupid people. Hypothesis's be damned!

No, you weren't making a hypothesis. You were stringing together scientificy sounding words like "anti-matter" and "extra dimensions" more or less at random.

Asking questions would look something like this: "Can any of the various modified gravity proposals explain the warping of the galactic disk?" or "Can somebody explain these results without resorting to post-grad level maths?".

If this were, say, an art history thread, it would count as "creative thoughts" about as much as saying "The only sensible explanation for the Sistine Chapel is that Michaelangelo could levitate. Or possibly, he had the help of highly trained ceiling cats." But for some reason, when it comes to physics, people have no hesitation sharing their "creative thoughts"...

You just can't get drunk and/or stoned and hypothesize about art history in the same way. You ever see the Sistine Chapel....ON WEED?

DarnoKonrad: I think you're confusing your strings with your p-branes.

I LOLed. Well done.

jigger: What if dark matter is regular matter (or antimatter) but it's in another dimension/universe and can only interact with this one through gravity?

I predict that when we figure out what causes the dark matter effect, it'll be something entirely prosaic, like galaxies we couldn't see due to some manner of interference, or the underestimating of how seriously light is warped by gravity leading us to draw conclusions from red-shifting in distant objects that aren't correct, or the cumulative gravity effects of gas and dust either rounded out of an equation or miscalculated due to faulty assumption about the uniformity of inter-stellar media, or perhaps even simpler, like scientists calculating the effects of gravity from visible matter incorrectly, and as a result, underestimating the impact that visible matter has on other visible matter, and so thinking something's missing from the equation when really nothing is.

I mean, gravity's pretty complex on a galactic scale when you think about it; from my, admittedly limited and probably incomplete, reading on the subject, the idea seems to be that gravity drops off quickly over distances, but never entirely disappears, which means that, even if at a very tiny level, every piece of matter in the universe is affecting every other piece of matter in the universe with its gravity. Since all objects are different distances from all other objects, that means that the rate of decay in gravity is different for the gravity effect from each object, on each object. That's the sort of thing we frequently round out in calculations by assuming things like the gravity of each solar system affects neighboring solar systems uniformly in proportion to its size, and each galaxy does the same to its galactic neighbors -and why not, when gravity effects are so insignificant over anything other than a solar scale?- but when we're talking about a nigh-infinite number of objects, some visible(planets, galaxies) and some not(inter-stellar gas, dust, planetoids, comets), spread out over a nigh-infinite space, those rounded out effects can add up. Perhaps the difference between the gravitic influence of matter on the near-side of a galaxy on a distant object and that of matter on the far side of a galaxy on the same object is both significant and rounded out of equations trying to determine the attributes of distant objects, or draw macro conclusions about the Universe.

Heron: like galaxies we couldn't see due to some manner of interference

Are you suggesting that bigger invisible galaxies surround regular old galaxies? The initial reason people started talking about Dark Matter is because galaxies are spinning too fast to hold together based on their observed mass. So something is making them more massive.

Heron: out of an equation or miscalculated due to faulty assumption about the uniformity of inter-stellar media,

It's entirely plausible that one group of experiments would yield the same error. But different experiments keep finding the same thing. Again and again. After awhile, the idea that everybody is making different errors that yields the same results is far more incredible than the existence of Dark Matter.

Heron: the idea seems to be that gravity drops off quickly over distances

Not really. It drops off according to the inverse square law, much like electromagnetic fields. It's hard to claim that such a drop off is "quick" since most field effects obey the inverse square law.

Heron: That's the sort of thing we frequently round out in calculations by assuming things like the gravity of each solar system affects neighboring solar systems uniformly in proportion to its size

Not really. Any system of objects has a "center of mass". For a round object, it's pretty easy to determine- it's the middle. For a pair of objects orbiting each other, it's going to be located at their barycenter. For a star system, it'll be pretty close to the center of the primary star (or the barycenter of the multiple stars). The planets just don't have nearly enough mass relative to the star. Regardless, we can figure out where the center of mass falls (and in an orbiting system, that center of mass is going to wobble, which is how we find exoplanets in many cases).

All of this is to get to my key point: any collection of objects has a center of mass, and you can treat the center of mass as a point mass so long as the gravitational effect of the objects inside the system are greater on each other than the gravitational effects of objects outside of the system. Two galaxies can be treated as point masses until they get close enough to start swapping stars.

Dark Matter is the accumulated mass of all the socks lost in the laundry throughout the history of the universe.

Dark matter is not dark, it is either see through matter, or SO dense that it can effect the light of a galaxy passing around it, yet so small as to not block any light that would make it detectable. M y pet hypothosis is that what we are seeing is the gravity of neighboring universes bleeding over into our own. What do you think?

Ain`Soph: Dark Matter is the accumulated mass of all the socks lost in the laundry throughout the history of the universe.

Dark Matter is:

The gum stuck to the underside of the table
The snot wiped off on the back of the curtain
The scribbles on the back of the holograph
The glue left after the old stars fell off the fabric of space-time
The wakes of all those heavy things that are rushing around space
The bowl of pudding under the rubbery skin that formed on top
The ashes of the previous universes
The ink stains making the palimpsest effect upon the page this version of the universe is writ
The fish in the ocean of Dark Energy upon which we float
The floaters in the aqueous humor of the visible universe
The collective ignorance of the universe given mass
For the majority of Earthlings, a Nunya

Also: it's harebrained, not hairbrained. It means flighty or foolish, in the way of a wild rabbit or hare.

/Hairbraned?

OhioKnight: (can't have a dark matter thread without some clown talking about how its really anti-gravity or other universes or some other goddamn thing)

People like you make laugh and be sad at the same time.

RedVentrue: Dark matter is not dark, it is either see through matter, or SO dense that it can effect the light of a galaxy passing around it, yet so small as to not block any light that would make it detectable. M y pet hypothosis is that what we are seeing is the gravity of neighboring universes bleeding over into our own. What do you think?

Me? I think that waving your hands around while making up shiat about neighboring universes doesn't really shed much light [sic] on the matter [also sic].

Please explain how, according to your pet hypothesis, the gravity in these imaginary neighboring universes just happens to arrange itself precisely to resemble the distribution expected of dark matter. While you're up, also please explain how it has done so for the past ~14 billion years, resulting in the characteristic acoustic power curve of the CMB, with particular reference to the WMAP data.

Look, dark matter is not only about the rotation of galaxies. There's a long and growing list of independent cosmological measurements that all point to the same conclusion: the matter we can see accounts for about 4% of the universe, and dark matter is distributed in a very specific and consistent way. If your personal pet hypothesis doesn't account quantitatively for all of those measurements, it's about as much use as arguing that 2+2 = 5 if sufficiently large 2s are leaking through from adjacent universes.

czetie: RedVentrue: Dark matter is not dark, it is either see through matter, or SO dense that it can effect the light of a galaxy passing around it, yet so small as to not block any light that would make it detectable. M y pet hypothosis is that what we are seeing is the gravity of neighboring universes bleeding over into our own. What do you think?

Me? I think that waving your hands around while making up shiat about neighboring universes doesn't really shed much light [sic] on the matter [also sic].

Please explain how, according to your pet hypothesis, the gravity in these imaginary neighboring universes just happens to arrange itself precisely to resemble the distribution expected of dark matter. While you're up, also please explain how it has done so for the past ~14 billion years, resulting in the characteristic acoustic power curve of the CMB, with particular reference to the WMAP data.

Look, dark matter is not only about the rotation of galaxies. There's a long and growing list of independent cosmological measurements that all point to the same conclusion: the matter we can see accounts for about 4% of the universe, and dark matter is distributed in a very specific and consistent way. If your personal pet hypothesis doesn't account quantitatively for all of those measurements, it's about as much use as arguing that 2+2 = 5 if sufficiently large 2s are leaking through from adjacent universes.

The dark matter concentrations outside of normal matter would be where the matter concentrations are greatest average density in the other universes. You could extrapolate the differences between dark matter / normal matter to get an idea of what those other universes look like. All conjecture of course, but most science IS conjecture untill tested. How do you test dark matter when it is completely unaffected by normal matter?

RedVentrue: universes

Let's cut to the point: we have no way to test for other universes. Well, not entirely true, we have a few, but thus far they've all turned up bupkis. You claim it's other universes, I claim that it's warp tunnels laid by alien gnomes for their spelljammers.

My hypothesis has at least as much validity as yours.