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(CNBC)   Someone who understands math explains how Ron Paul's obsession with the gold standard is pretty darn stupid. Au, poor RON PAUL   (cnbc.com) divider line 317
    More: Dumbass, Ron Paul, gold standards, devaluations, maths  
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6216 clicks; posted to Business » on 14 Oct 2011 at 6:05 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-10-14 05:12:02 PM

Kreigenstein: Gold, if not used as money, still has value.


Its intrinsic value is so insignificant compared to the wealth it would be representing that this is completely irrelevant.
 
2011-10-14 05:28:02 PM

Why Yes I Am A Wizard: Choose:

A. [shellgames.weebly.com image 128x128]
Money = Something tangible of value (Gold Standard)

B. [www.deviantart.com image 256x256]
(Fiat Reserve System we have now)

I am not advocating carrying around chests of pieces-of-eight again, but turning debt into money is just not working out.

It doesn't have to be gold. (Gold is bad anyway because it is already well-circulated). We could choose any rare and resource so long as it is: a) finite, b) easily traded


How about your toenail trimmings?
 
2011-10-14 05:42:35 PM
Fark fiat currency. I'm already working on my ammo-backed economy!

cdn1.gamepro.com
 
2011-10-14 05:48:48 PM
Do you trust your government? If yes, carry on. If no, why do you trust its fiat currency?
 
2011-10-14 05:50:48 PM
We should just do NOTHING!
 
2011-10-14 05:52:30 PM
I really like this fiat:
www.jrwilkinson.com
 
2011-10-14 05:53:39 PM

RobertBruce: Do you trust your government? If yes, carry on. If no, why do you trust its fiat currency?


So my choices of faith based currency are dollars and gold? I'm sticking with tulip bulbs.
 
2011-10-14 05:58:29 PM

simplicimus: RobertBruce: Do you trust your government? If yes, carry on. If no, why do you trust its fiat currency?

So my choices of faith based currency are dollars and gold? I'm sticking with tulip bulbs.


Or chickens or cows or crops or labor or something else? But something different than we have now.
 
2011-10-14 06:05:24 PM
I love all the talk of printing money that goes on in these threads. You think bank lending wouldn't expand the money supply if our dollar was pegged to gold?

You think the housing crisis and mortgage backed securities wouldn't have existed? Or the government couldn't sell treasury bonds?

Forget about comparing past booms and busts with current ones, which issue with our economy would have been prevented had we been on a gold standard during my life?
 
2011-10-14 06:11:47 PM

Koalacaust: Bob16: mental defect known as libertarianism

Yea, it takes a pretty sick individual to value things like self determination, personal responsibility and limited government.


I wouldn't have thought so before I met a bunch of them.
 
2011-10-14 06:18:15 PM

RobertBruce: simplicimus: RobertBruce: Do you trust your government? If yes, carry on. If no, why do you trust its fiat currency?

So my choices of faith based currency are dollars and gold? I'm sticking with tulip bulbs.

Or chickens or cows or crops or labor or something else? But something different than we have now.


So I bring a cow to the store to get 4 bales of hay. How many chickens do I get in change?
 
2011-10-14 06:20:22 PM
/super hot
 
2011-10-14 06:23:04 PM
amultiverse.com

/once more with feeling
 
2011-10-14 06:43:06 PM

Why Yes I Am A Wizard: Choose:

A.
Money = Something tangible of value (Gold Standard)

B.
(Fiat Reserve System we have now)

I am not advocating carrying around chests of pieces-of-eight again, but turning debt into money is just not working out.

It doesn't have to be gold. (Gold is bad anyway because it is already well-circulated). We could choose any rare and resource so long as it is: a) finite, b) easily traded


Well sir, I was against a gold standard until I saw those fancy pictures. Who could argue with such a meaningless post?
 
2011-10-14 07:09:39 PM
A crazy old man obsessed with gold might not have thought his little "plan" all the way through?

Say it ain't so!
 
2011-10-14 07:20:10 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: the_geek: I would continue my previous comment by adding...

inflation is a subsidy to the financial industry because in an inflationary environment you must utilize the conduits for risky investment. Guess which industry controls whether there's inflation?

Wrong. Debts are nominally denominated, so inflation is better for debtors, deflation or disinflation is better for creditors.


and savers
 
2011-10-14 07:24:17 PM

TheWhoppah: Gaseous Anomaly: Wrong. Debts are nominally denominated, so inflation is better for debtors, deflation or disinflation is better for creditors.

Hell yes. My buddy's parents bought a home in 1970 for like $30k and now it is worth 500k. My parents bought a $30 in a different neighborhood at the same time and it is maybe worth $200k.

Either way, in 1970 $30k was a good salary for a young-ish lawyer or dentist but (except in a mega city) $200k would be almost impossible for a youngish worker today. The value of our labor has gone DOWN over the years, at least in relation to real estate. The debtors need all the help they can get. There is a class war, there has always been a class war... and the rich are winning.




The value of real estate (almost) always increases simply because there's a fixed amount of land and the population always increases.
 
2011-10-14 07:48:03 PM
I still haven't heard a really good argument against making our currency based on Gold.

The anti-gold crowd is taking up their argument as if they have something to lose, as if they are personally tied to the fiat currency. Who cares, if you prefer money based on fiction, then why would you care if your money is now based on a fixed asset? You can just pretend that it's still based on a fictional measurement of work, or value.

What the gold-backers want is an end to the rampant borrowing and creation of currency. We feel like having a fiat currency is a ridiculous concept which only leads to the sort of financial collapse and oppression of the masses we are now experiencing.

The 1% lost a lot of their money, but they just printed more to cover their losses. The 99% just lost. Is this fair? We think it's not fair. None of your pro-fiat people on here are the 1%. Why would you possibly be against something that would only benefit you and not harm you? You've been brainwashed, or "educated" by a system designed to keep the 1% in power.

Throw off the chains of your masters. They are sucking the world dry and living off of your hard work. Open your eyes, people. We are the majority, true power is derived from the people, without us, there is no them. Stand up for yourselves for once in your lives. Bring down the system.,
 
2011-10-14 07:55:29 PM

thrgd456: I still haven't heard a really good argument against making our currency based on Gold.

The anti-gold crowd is taking up their argument as if they have something to lose, as if they are personally tied to the fiat currency. Who cares, if you prefer money based on fiction, then why would you care if your money is now based on a fixed asset? You can just pretend that it's still based on a fictional measurement of work, or value.

What the gold-backers want is an end to the rampant borrowing and creation of currency. We feel like having a fiat currency is a ridiculous concept which only leads to the sort of financial collapse and oppression of the masses we are now experiencing.

The 1% lost a lot of their money, but they just printed more to cover their losses. The 99% just lost. Is this fair? We think it's not fair. None of your pro-fiat people on here are the 1%. Why would you possibly be against something that would only benefit you and not harm you? You've been brainwashed, or "educated" by a system designed to keep the 1% in power.

Throw off the chains of your masters. They are sucking the world dry and living off of your hard work. Open your eyes, people. We are the majority, true power is derived from the people, without us, there is no them. Stand up for yourselves for once in your lives. Bring down the system.,


You understand the value of gold is based solely on what people think its worth? It's no more valid than paper money. Tulip bulbs are the way to go.
 
2011-10-14 08:14:29 PM
Fiat money
www.samizdata.net

Yeah, you can trust it. really.
 
2011-10-14 08:21:12 PM

thrgd456: if you prefer money based on fiction, then why would you care if your money is now based on a fixed asset?


Gold is based on fiction. Inherently, gold a fairly worthless metal.

thrgd456: What the gold-backers want is an end to the rampant borrowing and creation of currency


Why do you want to end the creation of currency? Why? The people can do more work, this means they create more value. There is no way that a fixed asset like gold can account for the growth in value that is the unescapable result of more people working more efficiently. Money MUST be created, else the working man sees the value of his work decline with each new baby born into the ranks of the workers. Perhaps we need a better technique for creating money than via bank loans but it must happen, else the 99% are screwed.

thrgd456: The 1% lost a lot of their money, but they just printed more to cover their losses. The 99% just lost. Is this fair? We think it's not fair


Of course it it not fair, but gold is not the answer. The answer is public financing of elections. The complete elimination of all campaign contributes, PACs and lobbyist must be outlawed. The more expensives elections become, the more beholden the elected officials are to those that provide the financing. Your little $200 dollar donations don't even matter except maybe a tiny little bit in a city or county election for dog catcher or constable. The old widow's 2 copper coins given in her state of poverty are NO LONGER more valuable than all the other tithes in the temple. Luke 20:45 Jesus farking Homo Christ god rest his soul.

thrgd456: Throw off the chains of your masters. They are sucking the world dry and living off of your hard work. Open your eyes, people. We are the majority, true power is derived from the people, without us, there is no them. Stand up for yourselves for once in your lives. Bring down the system.,


Gold won't help you here. The 1% has all the gold. What we need chaos in the market. Extreme deflation devalues all assets, which might work, except that it could devalue our only true asset: our labor. Extreme inflation might work. It would eliminate your savings and your debt. Who cares if you owe $200,000 on your house if $200,000 is the new $2,000. Most of the 99% have more debt than savings, so they would take this bargin in a heartbeat.

Whatever the approach, the result has to be massive destabilisation of the market such that no static fortune is safe. It can't be safe for the uber rich to just hire a bunch of Goldstiens to manage their money and then live high on the hog for untold gernations. Fortunes must be in constant jeopardy such that they can only be preserved by constantly taking calculated risks that involve putting the money INTO the economy and picking winners instead of losers. Rags to riches is the American Dream and it just isnt bloody likely these days. The days of 3% inflation and moderate growth and contraction only help to bouy the 1% at the expense of everyone else. Economic chaos create opportunties. Predictability squashes them.
 
2011-10-14 08:30:27 PM
Why exactly am I reading a financial debate thread on FARK?

/yes, officer alcohol was involved
 
2011-10-14 08:31:11 PM
I don't know what's sadder. the fact that every one of these politics threads ends up with the left, right, and everyone else just going "no lol ur wrong!11111" and linking some random blog as to why they are right.... or the fact that there are people here who think golds only use is "it looks pretty"


I'm pretty sure gold is used in the following....

-Protective coatings for satellites/protection suits/astronaut helmets/ aircraft etc
-Automobiles using it for heat dissipation
-electronics
-medicine

I'm pretty sure it's got uses in chemistry, but I don't really know much about chemistry so it could just be some chemists dicking around with it rather than using it for something useful, perhaps one of you chemists can tell me what you guys use it for.

And as for jewelery coins etc, you can recycle those and use it for more the more useful things if needed.



So yeah, what's wrong with backing our money with something of ACTUAL value that the world needs. It's better than just going "herp derp we in debt lets print more money derp derp!"
 
2011-10-14 08:37:57 PM
Paper has actual uses too.
More uses than gold.
The economic value of gold is completely out of proportion to its usefulness as a substance.
It would make more sense to base the economy on cocaine than gold. I am serious.
 
2011-10-14 08:41:33 PM

BloodFireDeath: I don't know what's sadder. the fact that every one of these politics threads ends up with the left, right, and everyone else just going "no lol ur wrong!11111" and linking some random blog as to why they are right.... or the fact that there are people here who think golds only use is "it looks pretty"


I'm pretty sure gold is used in the following....

-Protective coatings for satellites/protection suits/astronaut helmets/ aircraft etc
-Automobiles using it for heat dissipation
-electronics
-medicine

I'm pretty sure it's got uses in chemistry, but I don't really know much about chemistry so it could just be some chemists dicking around with it rather than using it for something useful, perhaps one of you chemists can tell me what you guys use it for.

And as for jewelery coins etc, you can recycle those and use it for more the more useful things if needed.



So yeah, what's wrong with backing our money with something of ACTUAL value that the world needs. It's better than just going "herp derp we in debt lets print more money derp derp!"


Ok, why gold? Platinum and titanium are scarce and more useful. Or molybdenum?
 
2011-10-14 08:47:37 PM

TheWhoppah: Paper has actual uses too.
More uses than gold.
The economic value of gold is completely out of proportion to its usefulness as a substance.
It would make more sense to base the economy on cocaine than gold. I am serious.


You know how long the checkout lines would be while the cashier checks the purity?
 
2011-10-14 08:47:46 PM

Hollie Maea: Its intrinsic value is so insignificant compared to the wealth it would be representing that this is completely irrelevant.


I'm seeing this a lot in this thread, and it's not correct. Look, I don't have an opinion on a gold-backed currency or a fiat-backed one. I don't have a degree in economics. So when I say that gold does have real value, it has nothing to do with this economic discussion.

Gold, like other metals and precious minerals, have value because of 1) scarcity 2) non-reproducibility 3) usefulness. Gold is an element which has these three characteristics. You can't grow it in your garden (that's to you, mr. 'might as well use tulips' above), it's not lying around everywhere, and it has many, many applications in electronics, science, medicine (yes, really) and Goldschlager. It also has incredible malleability and lustre which makes it attractive for aesthetic purposes. It's completely biologically inert and non-toxic (unlike certain other heavy metals). It's a fantastic electrical conductor. It can be hammered so farking thin that it's a few molecules thick, and actually transparent (early sunglasses had lenses that were made of gold leaf). It happens to have a beautiful atomic structure, for whatever that's worth. It can be amalgamated with many other metals to give it different appearance and properties, dissolved into a brown powder by acid, and always recovered into pure gold. A few micrometers of gold will stop more radiation than thick leaded glass.

I could go on and on. I am very fascinated by gold. It has value, and not just because 'people give it value because it's pretty', like some here are claiming. This is also true about lead, copper, uranium, helium, rare earth elements, and a host of other finite materials that only exist in nature. Like I said, I don't give a damn about the economic debate, but don't go around saying stupid shiat like 'gold has no value'. There's nothing on this planet that can do certain things better than gold (a whole lot of certain things, really) and we can't make more of it. It has value because it has utility and scarcity, and it's been understood to be valuable by virtually every civilization in history for these reasons.
 
2011-10-14 08:55:12 PM

Samwise Gamgee: Hollie Maea: Its intrinsic value is so insignificant compared to the wealth it would be representing that this is completely irrelevant.

I'm seeing this a lot in this thread, and it's not correct. Look, I don't have an opinion on a gold-backed currency or a fiat-backed one. I don't have a degree in economics. So when I say that gold does have real value, it has nothing to do with this economic discussion.

Gold, like other metals and precious minerals, have value because of 1) scarcity 2) non-reproducibility 3) usefulness. Gold is an element which has these three characteristics. You can't grow it in your garden (that's to you, mr. 'might as well use tulips' above), it's not lying around everywhere, and it has many, many applications in electronics, science, medicine (yes, really) and Goldschlager. It also has incredible malleability and lustre which makes it attractive for aesthetic purposes. It's completely biologically inert and non-toxic (unlike certain other heavy metals). It's a fantastic electrical conductor. It can be hammered so farking thin that it's a few molecules thick, and actually transparent (early sunglasses had lenses that were made of gold leaf). It happens to have a beautiful atomic structure, for whatever that's worth. It can be amalgamated with many other metals to give it different appearance and properties, dissolved into a brown powder by acid, and always recovered into pure gold. A few micrometers of gold will stop more radiation than thick leaded glass.

I could go on and on. I am very fascinated by gold. It has value, and not just because 'people give it value because it's pretty', like some here are claiming. This is also true about lead, copper, uranium, helium, rare earth elements, and a host of other finite materials that only exist in nature. Like I said, I don't give a damn about the economic debate, but don't go around saying stupid shiat like 'gold has no value'. There's nothing on this planet that can do certain things better than gold (a whole lot of certain things, really) and we can't make more of it. It has value because it has utility and scarcity, and it's been understood to be valuable by virtually every civilization in history for these reasons.


I totally agree that gold is useful in it's many applications. It's a wonderful metal. It has an intrinsic value based on scarcity vs application. But not as high as currently valued or worshiped.
 
2011-10-14 08:57:27 PM

thrgd456: What the gold-backers want is an end to the rampant borrowing and creation of currency. We feel like having a fiat currency is a ridiculous concept which only leads to the sort of financial collapse and oppression of the masses we are now experiencing.


You're kidding, I hope.

(Either that or you slept through history class.)
 
2011-10-14 09:05:17 PM

simplicimus:
I totally agree that gold is useful in it's many applications. It's a wonderful metal. It has an intrinsic value based on scarcity vs application. But not as high as currently valued or worshiped.


That may or may not be true, and I have no problem with that opinion. It just bugs me when people make the argument that it's only valuable because people arbitrarily decide it's valuable.

Now, to compare gold to something else expensive is ACTUALLY useless ... mined diamonds, by comparison, are essentially worthless, and really ARE only expensive (not valuable) because of an artificial scarcity and demand created entirely by the diamond cartels. Industrial diamonds - the only useful ones - are actually very cheap to buy (for a reason). There's not even a legit way to determine the value of a given diamond, and they're easy to fake, via chemical vapor deposition.
 
2011-10-14 09:05:52 PM
Now, to compare gold to something else expensive that is ACTUALLY useless

FTFM
 
2011-10-14 09:11:30 PM

Samwise Gamgee: Now, to compare gold to something else expensive that is ACTUALLY useless

FTFM


Got your drift. Diamonds have industrial applications. Other than that, useless.
 
2011-10-14 09:28:08 PM
Women value it.
 
2011-10-14 09:31:31 PM

DavidVincent: Women value it.


Both gold and diamonds. Easy way to get lucky.
 
2011-10-14 09:50:34 PM

Smackledorfer: Why Yes I Am A Wizard: Choose:

A.
Money = Something tangible of value (Gold Standard)

B.
(Fiat Reserve System we have now)

I am not advocating carrying around chests of pieces-of-eight again, but turning debt into money is just not working out.

It doesn't have to be gold. (Gold is bad anyway because it is already well-circulated). We could choose any rare and resource so long as it is: a) finite, b) easily traded

Well sir, I was against a gold standard until I saw those fancy pictures. Who could argue with such a meaningless post?


Apparently you
 
2011-10-14 09:59:14 PM

simplicimus: DavidVincent: Women value it.

Both gold and diamonds. Easy way to get lucky.


If you enjoy the company of whores.

/leave my mom out of this
 
2011-10-14 10:02:50 PM

Atomic Spunk: simplicimus: DavidVincent: Women value it.

Both gold and diamonds. Easy way to get lucky.

If you enjoy the company of whores.

/leave my mom out of this


It's all a matter of price.
 
2011-10-15 12:29:09 AM

BloodFireDeath: I don't really know much


And how!
 
2011-10-15 12:36:42 AM

Dwight_Yeast: DrPainMD: You do know that the plight of the poor, the old, the sick, and the stupid hasn't changed one bit since we created all these government-run social programs to help them, don't you?

You mean the poor are still drying in the streets, children are still starving to death, and old people are rendered homeless when they are fired when they get "too old" or too ill to work, causing them to be evicted by their landlords?


I meant what I said. The poor are no better off now than they were before. It's a verifiable fact. Hint: most people don't give to charity anymore; in the past, everybody gave.

BTW, children weren't more likely to starve to death before government-run social programs. And there are still old people who are homeless. I defy you to find one statistical analysis that shows that poor, old and sick are better off now. Just one.
 
2011-10-15 12:43:34 AM

Samwise Gamgee: Hollie Maea: Its intrinsic value is so insignificant compared to the wealth it would be representing that this is completely irrelevant.

I'm seeing this a lot in this thread, and it's not correct. Look, I don't have an opinion on a gold-backed currency or a fiat-backed one. I don't have a degree in economics. So when I say that gold does have real value, it has nothing to do with this economic discussion.

Gold, like other metals and precious minerals, have value because of 1) scarcity 2) non-reproducibility 3) usefulness. Gold is an element which has these three characteristics. You can't grow it in your garden (that's to you, mr. 'might as well use tulips' above), it's not lying around everywhere, and it has many, many applications in electronics, science, medicine (yes, really) and Goldschlager. It also has incredible malleability and lustre which makes it attractive for aesthetic purposes. It's completely biologically inert and non-toxic (unlike certain other heavy metals). It's a fantastic electrical conductor. It can be hammered so farking thin that it's a few molecules thick, and actually transparent (early sunglasses had lenses that were made of gold leaf). It happens to have a beautiful atomic structure, for whatever that's worth. It can be amalgamated with many other metals to give it different appearance and properties, dissolved into a brown powder by acid, and always recovered into pure gold. A few micrometers of gold will stop more radiation than thick leaded glass.

I could go on and on. I am very fascinated by gold. It has value, and not just because 'people give it value because it's pretty', like some here are claiming. This is also true about lead, copper, uranium, helium, rare earth elements, and a host of other finite materials that only exist in nature. Like I said, I don't give a damn about the economic debate, but don't go around saying stupid shiat like 'gold has no value'. There's nothing on this planet that can do certain things better than gold (a whole lot of certain things, really) and we can't make more of it. It has value because it has utility and scarcity, and it's been understood to be valuable by virtually every civilization in history for these reasons.


I didn't say it has no value. I said that its value is insignificant compared to the wealth it would be required to represent if it were the currency--so insignificant as to be entirely irrelevant.

Sure, gold is useful. Like you said, you can hammer it real thin. It's the third best electrical conductor. It doesn't react much with other elements. Ok. That's some value. But now consider how much the entire wealth of the United States is worth. All of the resources. All of the ingenuity. All the potential for labor and creating things. All the stuff we HAVE created. The whole country. Even all the parts you haven't been to. Three hundred people, many of which are smart and hard working. The difference between that and the things you mentioned that give gold value is so cosmically vast as to be almost incomprehensible. It's like inspecting a Boeing 747 and noticing a drop of water on the wing and saying "Hey that is heavy. You can't say it's not heavy. Look, it has weight!" Sure, but not enough to be relevant.
 
2011-10-15 12:51:56 AM

DrPainMD: Dwight_Yeast: DrPainMD: You do know that the plight of the poor, the old, the sick, and the stupid hasn't changed one bit since we created all these government-run social programs to help them, don't you?

You mean the poor are still drying in the streets, children are still starving to death, and old people are rendered homeless when they are fired when they get "too old" or too ill to work, causing them to be evicted by their landlords?

I meant what I said. The poor are no better off now than they were before. It's a verifiable fact. Hint: most people don't give to charity anymore; in the past, everybody gave.

BTW, children weren't more likely to starve to death before government-run social programs. And there are still old people who are homeless. I defy you to find one statistical analysis that shows that poor, old and sick are better off now. Just one.


those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat talk radio nonsense.
 
2011-10-15 02:21:24 AM

Samwise Gamgee: That may or may not be true, and I have no problem with that opinion. It just bugs me when people make the argument that it's only valuable because people arbitrarily decide it's valuable.


First of all, it HAS to be true, or everything we know about supply and demand is bullshiat.

Right now the demand for gold is made up of its intrinsic value, its jewelry/coin/art value, and its bubbled up investment value. If you take the latter two away, we are left with less demand - assuming the demand for the former is currently met (ie, all the people who want to do something electrical/whatever with gold can get it). Its value simply HAS to go down when you cut all that other demand from the pool.

Now, I don't have the numbers, and its 2 am so I'm not going to get them, but how much a % of the worlds gold is being put towards useful goals, as opposed to jewelry and bullion that serves no purpose? If anything, the very argument that gold has a high intrinsic value is an argument against making it a currency-backing device, because anything we want could back currency, whereas only gold can be used as gold. Now, couple that with my earlier post, as yet unanswered by the gold bugs, about just what currency failures we've seen since we left the gold standard would have actually been prevented by a gold standard, and I see absolutely no reason to return to it. Its still easily manipulated, perhaps even more easily, than a dollar backed merely by government faith and credit. Its still inflated, in essence, by fractional lending and relative value compared to other things (if there is another housing bubble and banks treat houses as the new higher value, then that is currency expansion whether the raw amount of gold stays level or not), and it has the bonus of encouraging deflation, which is far scarier than inflation.

The very last thing we want to encourage is people taking cash, which represents their goods and services, to be put under a mattress. In our current system, anyone who wants to put goods and services under a mattress can already buy a metal of their choice and do so anyways, but at least in doing so they are somewhat limited in how much their silly decision can affect how much my next week's labor is going to be worth.

Very few people in this thread have claimed its value is 100% arbitrary, if that makes you feel better.
 
2011-10-15 02:24:12 AM

DrPainMD: It's a verifiable fact


I'm surprised you would say this without posting verification. Next you'll recommend workhouses and debtors prisons I'm sure.
 
2011-10-15 08:06:05 AM

ajgeek: SO WHAT'S THE DAMN ANSWER!?


42
 
2011-10-15 09:29:35 AM

the opposite of charity is justice: The man isn't dumb but how he could be uaware of this boggles me, I guess he is so blinded by the libertarian ideology that 2+2 starts becoming a head scratcher.


Ron Paul is a Libertarian to the same extent that I'm a fairy princess (IE: Not at all).

RP's idea of "liberty" is that "Christians should have the liberty to impose their religion on everyone else", "You have the liberty to pay taxes for programs that benefit me, I have the liberty to not pay taxes for programs that benefit you".

He's right that the system is broken. Unfortunately, his solutions are retarded, regressive, and based on ideology rather than evidence.
 
2011-10-15 10:17:50 AM

Why Yes I Am A Wizard: Choose:

A. [shellgames.weebly.com image 128x128]
Money = Something tangible of value (Gold Standard)

B. [www.deviantart.com image 256x256]
(Fiat Reserve System we have now)

I am not advocating carrying around chests of pieces-of-eight again, but turning debt into money is just not working out.

It doesn't have to be gold. (Gold is bad anyway because it is already well-circulated). We could choose any rare and resource so long as it is: a) finite, b) easily traded


value: the perception of what something is worth. i.e., it's valuable because we say so. There is no inherent value in gold aside from it's elemental properties. I'd say the same about most precious stones, as well. Diamonds are more useful coating my tool blades than decorating anything I own.

Bears repeating: Gold is fiat. Unless you'll actually be trading physical items for physical work, then a fiat system is needed. We use fiat systems so we could get away from systems of barter because figuring out how many chickens to give your doctor for setting your broken leg is an exercise in stupidity and futility.
 
2011-10-15 11:11:12 AM

Hydra: WhyteRaven74: The United States hadn't printed gold and silver certificates since the 30s. Indeed it was the slowness in getting away from that that hampered recovery from the great depression. Those countries that abandoned pinning their currency to gold and silver sooner, recovered faster. Those that waited longer, took longer.

This is a common misconception (new window).


I have you farkied in green so I'll share... My experience on Fark has been much better with them on ignore. I don't interact with them (they're straight up insane) but reading what they have to say is not worth the time. They're truly crazy. I have found ignoring the crazy and the stupid makes Fark better. If you get to ignore someone who is both of those things then it is even better. Dunno but I thought I'd share it with you... I don't ignore people who I disagree with (that would just be dumb) but I do ignore those who have demonstrated that they're incapable of articulating sane replies or comments that are smart enough to actually bother considering or responding to.
 
2011-10-15 12:47:32 PM

UnspokenVoice: . I have found ignoring the crazy and the stupid makes Fark better.


That must dramatically reduce the amount there is to read. Kind of like when I got Tivo, and I discovered I could watch three half hour shows in an hour.
 
2011-10-15 02:28:41 PM

clyph: Ron Paul is a Libertarian to the same extent that I'm a fairy princess (IE: Not at all).


Correct. He's a neoconfederate. He appears to be just fine with arbitrary levels of government power, as long as the governments involved are State and not Federal. (See, e.g. his views on abortion, or how many debate questions he answers with simply "that should be left to the States").
 
2011-10-15 02:35:35 PM

thrgd456: What the gold-backers want is an end to the rampant borrowing and creation of currency.


The rampant creation of currency is 100% necessary to sustain a modern economy.

If the money supply is fixed, any economic growth MUST cause the same amount of deflation. (Note that the money supply was not fixed when the US was on a gold standard; we could and did revalue from time to time).

An economy that can never grow is a really bad idea if your population might grow.
Deflation is really bad for any economy.

Before you stick your fingers in your ears and start going "la la la deflation would be just great la la la", go read up on some historical deflationary episodes, here and elsewhere, and get a good idea of what life was like.

Most likely, if we ever tried it here for any amount of time, it would get worked around by widespread bartering.
 
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