impaler: all those poor, out of work OWSs, should have gotten a useful engineering degree

Except many, if not most people are not suited for engineering and I certainly wouldn't want a good chunk of them to be anywhere near a design or blueprint or implementation setup.

You know it's bad when you can't even work for free. The place where I work for the city for food stamps has a garage that works on garbage trucks. I asked the foreman if I could work over there as a mechanic's helper, just picking up tools and cleaning up the garage, possibly to help line me up for a job so I don't have to be on food stamps anymore. The shop manager's response: Thanks, but no thanks.

If you can't work for pay, and you can't get experience working for free, then you might as well be an Occupier.

Peki: If you can't work for pay, and you can't get experience working for free, then you might as well be an Occupier.

Local shelter requires volunteers to have 2+ years experience (in what, I have never found out).

Garbage picking in a public area (say, what community sevice would require) usually requires a few good references as well.

Both of which aren't exactly paid or desired positions.

We should allocate higher education aid to those fields where we have a need. Look at all the H-1 visa applicaitons and the fields they refer to, then provide economic aid to students going into those fields.

Maybe we do this today, but we should be doing it more. There's no reason that with 9.1% unemployment, my office should be crawling with South Asians. I hate to say 'they're takin' our jerbs!", but we're failing as a society if we can't incent our own youth to go into fields in which there is demand.

Want to go to school for computer science or engineering? here's a grant. Want to go for humanities or liberal arts or finance? Fine, you're on your own.

FTFA: Math, engineering, technology and computer science students accounted for about 11.1 percent of college graduates in 1980, according to government data. That share dropped to about 8.9 percent in 2009.

I imagine that's a result of the greater accessibility of a college education these days. The best and brightest got a college degree 30 years ago. The new influx of college enrollees, so to speak, are more likely to be lower on the academic achievement scale. I'd guess they're less likely to choose/graduate from the more rigorous engineering/science programs.

ajgeek: Maybe they should go back to management and show them the reality of how cutting the training budget wasn't such a hot ticket after the quarterly profits came through.

/long term viability almost always beats short term gains

this. no one trains anymore, even though its normal for students out of school to not know wtf they are doing in a new job. They slash training budgets and want to hire only people with experience.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: I think "Engineers" should be given its own tab at this point.

If only.

tomcatadam:
Local shelter requires volunteers to have 2+ years experience (in what, I have never found out).

That's awesome. I'm gonna remember that one.

I had a bit of trouble before the crisis negotiating the whole "can't get experience without work, can't get work without experience" paradox; it's just flat out impossible now. One of many reasons why I'm probably going to give up on earning a "normal" paycheck and becoming some combination of SAHM and self-employed.

ajgeek :
Maybe they should go back to management government and show them the reality of how cutting the training and education budget wasn't such a hot ticket after the quarterly profits came through.


FTFY

Peki: You know it's bad when you can't even work for free. The place where I work for the city for food stamps has a garage that works on garbage trucks. I asked the foreman if I could work over there as a mechanic's helper, just picking up tools and cleaning up the garage, possibly to help line me up for a job so I don't have to be on food stamps anymore. The shop manager's response: Thanks, but no thanks.

If you can't work for pay, and you can't get experience working for free, then you might as well be an Occupier.

That may have been an insurance issue. If you aren't on the payroll, the garage's liability insurance may not cover you.

Shenanigans. They're just biatching and moaning so they can get more visas.

The OWS people have a legitimate gripe.

Corporations have entirely too much control over our politics.

/Engineer
//Has a part-time job that is consistently increasing his hours

What is even more disturbing is the high percentage of engineering/science students that are from outside the USA. Once they have a few years experience, they go home and we lose both the education and the experience.

But it is certainly true that most American students lack the background in math and science to even apply for an engineering/science program in college. Math-phobic teachers and lower schools' social agendas that do not include educating kids doesn't help.

Chevello: Peki: You know it's bad when you can't even work for free. The place where I work for the city for food stamps has a garage that works on garbage trucks. I asked the foreman if I could work over there as a mechanic's helper, just picking up tools and cleaning up the garage, possibly to help line me up for a job so I don't have to be on food stamps anymore. The shop manager's response: Thanks, but no thanks.

If you can't work for pay, and you can't get experience working for free, then you might as well be an Occupier.

That may have been an insurance issue. If you aren't on the payroll, the garage's liability insurance may not cover you.

That shop owner would be in violation of a half dozen labor laws the moment you picked up a broom.

Debeo Summa Credo: We should allocate higher education aid to those fields where we have a need. Look at all the H-1 visa applicaitons and the fields they refer to, then provide economic aid to students going into those fields.

Maybe we do this today, but we should be doing it more. There's no reason that with 9.1% unemployment, my office should be crawling with South Asians. I hate to say 'they're takin' our jerbs!", but we're failing as a society if we can't incent our own youth to go into fields in which there is demand.

Want to go to school for computer science or engineering? here's a grant. Want to go for humanities or liberal arts or finance? Fine, you're on your own.

You're making the mistake of thinking that we have a shortage of qualified workers. The reality is that employers are asking for such specific sets of skills that no one can fill their qualifications and those that can are worth far more than the offered pay. They aren't actually looking to fill these jobs with qualified applicants, they want the vacancies so that they can pressure the government to grant more H1Bs.

Debeo Summa Credo: We should allocate higher education aid to those fields where we have a need. Look at all the H-1 visa applicaitons and the fields they refer to, then provide economic aid to students going into those fields.

Except the demand is overstated and the market IS being saturated with new grads.

Except, why hire a new grad when you can hire far cheaper foreign labor, and/or use the threat of doing so to greatly lower wages while raising expectations to far beyond what a new grad can provide?

Want to go to school for computer science or engineering? here's a grant.

The fact of the matter is, University is not and never will be a job training program. It's up to a company to provide that for the student that has the existing background education and theory and some (very, very limited) practical experience.

And many, if not most companies these days are content with demanding what no graduated student can possibly provide. Because there's a lot of unemployed and desperate older people in the field, and the ones still working don't want to relinquish their positions anyways.

They are willing to pay 30K for a skilled worker and beef about people aging out of the work force. Why not pay minimum wage for trainees? Eventually, they become skilled. It's not rocket science.

sdd2000: FTFY

Education != training.
A University cannot ever provide you with 5+ years experience in InternalCompanySoftwareX, especially for/on a 4-year program.

natazha: But it is certainly true that most American students lack the background in math and science to even apply for an engineering/science program in college. Math-phobic teachers and lower schools' social agendas that do not include educating kids doesn't help.

It's time for engineering based standardized tests!

Chevello: That may have been an insurance issue. If you aren't on the payroll, the garage's liability insurance may not cover you.

That argument is what is used by a lot of the places I've volunteered to work at. The legal climate in the U.S. is so bad that companies (especially the smaller ones) are terrified of something as silly as a slip and fall; a volunteer who sues the company could tank it. I don't fault them for saying no; it's just one more barrier among more than I'd really care to count at this point.

And for that particular case (the workfare location), I'm on their insurance anyway as a workfare participant. All that would have needed to happen is a gentlemen's agreement between the foreman and the shop manager. It seems to be reflecting a more general public attitude of "I have this, you can't have it," or "I can't have this, so you can't have it either." It's very frustrating, as getting a job essentially means someone has to do you a favor to begin with, and people aren't in a very giving mood.

Contents Under Pressure: Why not pay minimum wage for trainees?

Because they can offer unpaid internships with no benefit to people far more skilled than those trainees anyways.

And that's what they want, really. Expendable, already experienced drones.

Many companies can find just that, but I guess the whiners in TFA are having problems.

bulldg4life: It's time for engineering based standardized tests!

It would be hilarious to see testing pop up in the technical fields. A lot of the imported labor I've encountered have terrible skills and wouldn't fare that well.

Contents Under Pressure: Why not pay minimum wage for trainees?

Because college kids do the work for free with co-ops and internships.

If you don't have the experience be the time you graduate, you're too late.

Ive seen ads like that Id love to switch jobs and work more with my hands and move around a little bit more. But yeah they can be picky cause there are so many people out there.

bulldg4life: If you don't have the experience be the time you graduate, you're too late.

Which is funny. You can't realistically expect or hope to get 2-4 years working/industry experience during your program/University years.

Because co-ops and internships themselves are rapidly filled and are now more and more often (in and of themselves) requiring the same kinds of "x years working experience" shenanigans.

As an intern (for 9 months now, at the same place), who is trying to work up the nerve to ask my boss for a titular promotion, I'm getting a kick out of this thread...

/"titular" because there is no money to accompany a permanent position

And here I sit with an engineering degree and 10 years experience in a field that doesn't match my degree. Stupid dot-com bubble hosed me when I graduated, now my degree is just a piece of paper. Oh well, still gainfully employed, although making significantly less than I would be as an engineer.

There's no shortage of scientists and engineers. There's a shortage of scientists and engineers at the salaries Siemens is willing to pay. That's why you see articles like this one- Siemens wants to convince the public that it's just impossible to find anyone qualified (i.e. a college graduate with five years experience for a position that pays $28,000 a year with no benefits), so now's the time to increase H1-B quotas!

Maybe those employers should think about a way to identify individuals with potential and then training them. You'll get loyal employees who will become really proficient in the particular way you do things. You can complain about how those dirty hippies at OWS shouldn't have got a degree in Underwater Basket Weaving with a double minor in Laotian studies and music theory, but it's not like they can afford to go back to school at this point.

Contents Under Pressure: They are willing to pay 30K for a skilled worker and beef about people aging out of the work force. Why not pay minimum wage for trainees? Eventually, they become skilled. It's not rocket science.

Tragedy of the commons/free rider problem. If you start investing in fresh meat, many of them will go to the competition once they're mostly competent. All company B has to do is offer 2% pay over company A for experienced talent. That's a whole lot cheaper for company B than doing in-house training themselves.

So everyone just gets into poaching from everyone else.

Of course, there could be some company loyalty in the mix. Except that you know full-well your multi-millionaire CEO would can your entire division over a golf bet, so that's kinda gone.

Needlessly Complicated: Maybe those employers should think about a way to identify individuals with potential and then training them. You'll get loyal employees who will become really proficient in the particular way you do things. You can complain about how those dirty hippies at OWS shouldn't have got a degree in Underwater Basket Weaving with a double minor in Laotian studies and music theory, but it's not like they can afford to go back to school at this point.

If it were only dirty hippies who have degrees in UBW with double minors, I don't think there would be as big of an issue.

I heard of a guy who had a Ph.D in Engineering who robbed a stored, sat down outside and waited for the police to take him to jail so he could get the first real meal he'd had in a week (I couldn't find that story, but did find one of another guy who went to jail to get health care). When that is the state of your unemployed, you have a much larger issue than hippies with useless degrees.

atomic-age: LouDobbsAwaaaay: I think "Engineers" should be given its own tab at this point.

If only.

Make it a science & engeineering tab and I'll vote for it.

Debeo Summa Credo: Want to go for humanities or liberal arts or finance? Fine, you're on your own.

I think you mispelled Sociology there.

ChubbyTiger: atomic-age: LouDobbsAwaaaay: I think "Engineers" should be given its own tab at this point.

If only.

Make it a science & engeineering tab and I'll vote for it.

Isn't that called the Geek tab?

Oh look, employers are biatching about a lack of "qualified" people again. Go fark yourselves.

/graduated a year before the big crash
//found a job fairly easily
///still employed

Paktu: There's no shortage of scientists and engineers. There's a shortage of scientists and engineers at the salaries Siemens is willing to pay. That's why you see articles like this one- Siemens wants to convince the public that it's just impossible to find anyone qualified (i.e. a college graduate with five years experience for a position that pays $28,000 a year with no benefits), so now's the time to increase H1-B quotas!

http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-siemens+entry+level

Says here 48k Entry Level which isn't bad for a new hire. Also go to Siemens job recruiting...at least for an entry level SE position it has the following:

"Primary development tools are C++, Java, SQL, HTML, XML, XSL and other Microsoft technologies. Knowledge of the healthcare environment is desired. "

Which a new grad should know for the most part or learn fairly easily enough. I'll give you that it would be rare to have healthcare knowledge as a new grad unless they did co-op / internships.

Is no one willing to train employees anymore?

Used to be you interviewed people and you picked the one you felt was intelligent enough to catch on to what you do, since each company, product, etc is different and no school can teach those things to that granular detail. Now, if you don't know the specific proprietary product/process/task/whatever they say sorry you're under qualified. I'm not sure how that works. H1B scamming sounds like the only possible answer

LouDobbsAwaaaay: I think "Engineers" should be given its own tab at this point.

I think whiny biatches should be given their own tab at this point.

I think colleges should have to publish the average starting salary for graduates by department i.e. - how much an English major earns on average upon graduation, etc. This way, students can properly evaluate the real value of choosing their major (and getting the corresponding loans).

i'm an IT guy nowadays, but before that I did mechanical inspection work, and to this day still get several work requests in the central tx area for CMM and other type of inspection work. moonlight if you have to, but it does pay off to learn CNC and other type programming languages for manufacturing.

jizzler: I think colleges should have to publish the average starting salary for graduates by department i.e. - how much an English major earns on average upon graduation, etc. This way, students can properly evaluate the real value of choosing their major (and getting the corresponding loans).

This can be farked if the college decides to hire the graduates for a year. That's how a lot of them make their claims of 80% employment after graduating.