The very first AvP comic series, which I think was a four parter, was actually very well done. Good art, some interesting characters, and a sound reason for having the two cross paths, with humans in the middle.

Absolutely none of which was reflected in the movie adaptations.

I started a top ten list of why I don't give a fark but stopped caring around item one

Aliens vs Predator vs Ash?

I forget which it was, but I had an AvP comic that featured the first human Predator. She had been adopted or something along those lines. I forget what it was called, but I loved it.

Huh, the list is null for me.

Here's the thing, most fans of a series are absolute morons when it comes to their show even though the may otherwise be intelligent adults. And there is always a huge monetary pressure to please the masses.

It's a lot to ask of the writers to keep a story good and stand firm against the two interests. While ruined is way too strong a word, many series are hurt, and too often people don't realize that with just a bit more care, the story could have been even greater.

The number one aspect that fans crave but will flatten a story? Upping the 'cool'. And by extension, upping the 'power' of a character.

Make a character too awesome and opponents must grow to match. Stronger opponents means previously normal characters either must be powered up, or they risk being little more than mobile alarms to alert 'Mr awesome' where to go and who to save. It applies to villains too.

Number two of an error is wanting to give everything to your audience all at once. How often do we watch a show where the commercial for the show right before the show let's us know that not only is the character not in danger, that other one you thought died earlier really didn't die because you saw them together in the trailer. That isn't so much the writers fault, but where it is their fault is when they fail to pace themselves. Your story arc needs some time to leaven. I've seen characters get 'killed' twice, have two more hostage scenes, interact with three different baddies all from different plots, and still attend HS all in a 1 hr episode.

So what's it have to do with alien crossovers?

Too many people see the 'cool' factor of the Alien, take what they think it is to their project, and crank out a lame product that has the entertainment nutritional equivalent of a twinky.

Not that twinkies aren't great when you want a twinky. But what these people do is like ordering a prime cut steak well done and putting ketchup on it. Yes you can do that, but with a little knowledge and finesse it could have been great.

scottydoesntknow: buckler: I rather enjoyed the first AvP game. I played and re-played the hell out of that thing...creepy, moody, well-made and downright scary at times.

I don't think you'll find a single person that disagrees with you. Both AvP and AvP2 are badass games because they really draw you into the atmosphere.

There was a time I couldn't play the marines portion without god mode because just looking at the scanner and watching those dots start to surround me in total darkness just freaked me out!

/And the part where you play the chestburster at the beginning was genius!
//NOM NOM NOM I'm free!

You guys talking 'bout the FPS ones? 'Cause yeah, they creep me right the fark out.

buckler: I rather enjoyed the first AvP game. I played and re-played the hell out of that thing...creepy, moody, well-made and downright scary at times.

It was a fun game.

flsprtsgod: I always had a thing for Machiko Noguchi.

Hey, that was her! :-) Thanks! And the comic was Alien vs Predator: War. I hope that it's as good as I remember.

Pretty sure that the first AvP shooter game had the original "Horde mode" that modern FPS's have and it came out before 2000

/played that game so much

scottydoesntknow:

Absolutely none of which was reflected in the movie adaptations.

This. I was so excited when I first heard they were gonna do an AvP movie since the only real exposure I had to the idea was through the comics or my imagination.


What a sorry suckfest full of disappointment

Ditto here. I had high hopes until they said the story would take place on modern day Earth instead of some far off colony in the future. The idea of the preds using a captured queen to provide eggs to "seed" a planet with aliens to hunt was tits. As was the adult pred "scout troop leader" getting injured and the juveniles go all "Lord of the Flies" on the human population.

Saw some stuff recycled from the Dark Horse comic like using dead alien body parts as acid proof armor and the ritual symbol etching of the lone human survivor but the rest was hopelessly bad.

droosan: [yafh.com image 450x677]

Tell me that's real. I don't know if I want to live in a world where that's not real!

"Highly recommended if you can track it down."



/Took less time to find it and download it than it took to RTFA.

TheWizard: buckler: I rather enjoyed the first AvP game. I played and re-played the hell out of that thing...creepy, moody, well-made and downright scary at times.

It was a fun game.

I had a lot of fun with the multiplayer. Leaping through the shadows as an alien and picking off marines from the back of the pack up was delightful. Let's hope Gearbox can recapture or even improve upon that with Colonial Marines.

PizzaJedi81: droosan: [yafh.com image 450x677]

Tell me that's real. I don't know if I want to live in a world where that's not real!


Then, it's real.


/really a 'gag' cover illustration by Scott Shaw! at any rate
//no 20-page story to go with it .. unfortunately

droosan: no 20-page story to go with it .. unfortunately

Bugger.

Quick, get...let's say...Mark Millar on it!

Mentalpatient87: Let's hope Gearbox can recapture or even improve upon that with Colonial Marines.

Saw the trailer a few days ago, wasn't impressed. Very scripted, way too much light, voice acting was...bad...everyone is sitting in the studio sipping their beverage of choice while reading lines.

None of the claustrophobia, panic, darkness, isolation, fear, etc. that made the first two games work were evident...and they even chose to 'invent' new aliens types...*sigh*. I loved Borderlands (another Gearbox title) but I think they missed the boat on this one.

scottydoesntknow: spcMike: I have both Aliens vs Superman books.

Heh I've got the Predator vs. Batman ones and I thought they were great. Predator comes to Gotham City, starts offing all of the crimelords (because they're all heavily armed and present good trophies) and Batman has to take him on. I think Batman ended up killing the Predator because there was no other choice, and he wasn't actually human so it didn't break his golden rule.

I've also got one of the old school AvP:Duel comics where a group of marines find a wounded predator (who's been facehugged) and a some hunter predators show up to claim the body/kill the marines. Predalien hatches and starts murdering both marines and predators so the last predator and marine have to team up to kill it. I liked the ending to that one because in the end it wasn't respect or love for each other (like the movie creepily hinted at) that stopped them from fighting, they were both just tired as shiat and wanted a break.

Yes, I remember I had the "prestige editions" of that. It was pretty nifty, as Batman got his ass handed to him the first time he took on the Predator. The second time, he needed a souped-up Batmobile to come out on top.

scottydoesntknow: Brainwash: ...and they even chose to 'invent' new aliens types

And just to show it's not that far of a stretch to have a Ram Alien, imagine if this guy got a facehugger. I guarantee it'd be able to break down any door in its path.



Hot like a lava Alien.

TheWizard: Too many people see the 'cool' factor of the Alien, take what they think it is to their project, and crank out a lame product that has the entertainment nutritional equivalent of a twinky.

Not that twinkies aren't great when you want a twinky. But what these people do is like ordering a prime cut steak well done and putting ketchup on it. Yes you can do that, but with a little knowledge and finesse it could have been great.

So much this. Alien is COOL - but it stops being cool when the unstopable monster is defeated by a guy in a bat suit with a tool belt.

I like the alien character/story because it involves a nearly unstoppable horror. Its demented and mindless and cold. Using them as a villain in a superhero story seems weak. All the main alien movies revolve around either the protagonists dieing or the alien being destroyed by nuclear weapons. They are gritty horror stories...

I just cant see ANY superheros having a good time fighting the xenomorph. I see them getting their organs torn out and strewn about the room and chests exploded everywhere.

The only cool alien crossover story is one where the aliens win.

scottydoesntknow: Actually you can blame the toy line and Alien 3 for inventing new alien types (and I think the 2nd game had new types too). Pretty much any creature that can have a facehugger attach to it gets a new breed. That's why the xenomorph in Alien 3 was a quadruped with dog-like (or ox in the extended version) characteristics, since it burst from a dog (ox).

True, but if it was dumb then it's still dumb now. A good designer would understand that.

Ridley Scott spent months looking for the perfect embodiment of the horror he wanted to put on screen, he found it in the genius of H.R. Giger. 3rd rate artistic knockoffs taking liberties like they do just makes the whole thing look terribly stupid (like the dog). There's no canonical reason why the alien should 'change' to mimic the host. James Cameron took liberties creating the Queen, but it made sense in the film...and the Queen was still its own species owing nothing to the human host for its features.

Even worse is when fans call them 'xenomorphs', as if the suffix 'morph' justifies the retarded idea that the Alien takes the form of the host. The term xenomorph was introduced in the 2nd film by the Lieutenant, for affect. Xenomoph was just a spooky name for as of yet undiscovered alien lifeforms that change their form over time (as described by Ripley).

/meanwhile I'm still trying to find a playable version of AvP Gold

I thought they were going to talk about the blatant X-men rip off, "the brood".

scottydoesntknow: And where is the canonical reason that they shouldn't be able to mimic the host? It's a sci-fi alien with no canonical background as far as the movies were concerned. They just appeared. No one knows if they evolved on their own, created by the Space Jockeys as a weapon, or the Predators as a hunting prey. Saying that they shouldn't be able to take the characteristics of their host comes from absolutely nowhere except your own nostalgic imagination.

Do heart worms that affect a deer end up different then the same species of heart worm infecting a species of elk?

It was dumb. I dont think they should be able to take the shape of their host either. It
doesn't make sense. Chicken eggs in a hawks nest will still turn into chicken. It wasn't necessary.

mikefinch: TheWizard: Too many people see the 'cool' factor of the Alien, take what they think it is to their project, and crank out a lame product that has the entertainment nutritional equivalent of a twinky.

Not that twinkies aren't great when you want a twinky. But what these people do is like ordering a prime cut steak well done and putting ketchup on it. Yes you can do that, but with a little knowledge and finesse it could have been great.

So much this. Alien is COOL - but it stops being cool when the unstopable monster is defeated by a guy in a bat suit with a tool belt.

I like the alien character/story because it involves a nearly unstoppable horror. Its demented and mindless and cold. Using them as a villain in a superhero story seems weak. All the main alien movies revolve around either the protagonists dieing or the alien being destroyed by nuclear weapons. They are gritty horror stories...

I just cant see ANY superheros having a good time fighting the xenomorph. I see them getting their organs torn out and strewn about the room and chests exploded everywhere.

The only cool alien crossover story is one where the aliens win.

I think you are on the right path, but the aliens are NOT badass unstoppable killing machines. They are big fast dangerous giant wasps.

So, why were they scary? In the first two films, the directors got it right. Scott brought forth the idea of a contact with something utterly foreign to the characters. Something they were completely unprepared for. He tied it to a creature that's existence revolved around some very primal fears of humans. Fear of the unknown. Fear of rape. Fear of the dark. And Fear of helplessness. He put the characters in a situation in which they had no ability to defend themselves from an unknown.

Cameron took the idea and extended it. He kept the same feelings. Isolation desperation helplessness and the unknown and built it up through a huge dose of suspense. Think about how he paced himself. Watch the movie again and observe just how long it takes before the marines even get a glimpse of an alien. The buildup is so perfect, that by the time the real action starts, the audience is ready to jump out of their skins.

But it does seem like the aliens kicked butt and were horrible unstoppable monsters. But they weren't. They were formidable, but consider why they were fareing so well.

In Alien, the alien was completely an unknown. The crew was no military force, just really the space equivalent of a cargo ship crew. Unarmed and faced with an unknown apex predator. If you released a rabid hyena in the ship the outcome might have been nearly as deadly.

In Aliens, the protagonists fell to Hubris and Greed. The Company understated the threat and the marInes not only went in unprepared (again the unknon) but they were contnually hobbled, sabotaged, and crippled by a lack of leadership and cruel twists of fate. If those marines had even the slightest bit more information about their foe, modest shifts of tactics would have made it a massacre for the aliens. Cameron played up the intelligence of the aliens a bit, but as shown in the directors cut and the sentry guns, it was the intelligence of a squirrel trying to get seed from a birdfeeder and not the malevolent intelligence depicted in later adaptations.

And assigning 'evil' motives to the aliens is one of the god damned most idiotic moronic dumb things a writer could do. They saw the dark cool look and thought, hey it's scary but evil is more scarier!!!

No. The fear comes from the realization that this isn't some evil demon that likes to pause for the camera in scary poses to scare the characters. The fear comes from the almost instinctual fears all people have of the unknown, helplessness, isolation, darkness and being hunted. Fear comes from the characters being drawn out and almost succeeding. What better to conjure these fears than a simple mindless implacable force.

The most soul crushing emotion that we experience, is perpetual hope. Because perpetual hope can only exist where continual desolation is reality.

PizzaJedi81: scottydoesntknow: Brainwash: ...and they even chose to 'invent' new aliens types

And just to show it's not that far of a stretch to have a Ram Alien, imagine if this guy got a facehugger. I guarantee it'd be able to break down any door in its path.

[i186.photobucket.com image 640x313]

Hot like a lava Alien.


You know, for kids!

buckler: Yeah, like scottydoesntknow said, playing the Marine was a biatch, because you'd get paranoid about finding blips on your motion tracker, freak out, and then find it was picking up a load of cargo swaying in the wind on a crane, or an automated machine moving. It was a constant battle between getting too complacent and being constantly on edge.

Only game I knew where I felt I HAD to find corners to put my back against and take calm breaths befor I could move forward again. You guys played it. You know that there were times when the paranoia was the hardest foe in the game.

scottydoesntknow: mikefinch: Do heart worms that affect a deer end up different then the same species of heart worm infecting a species of elk?

It was dumb. I dont think they should be able to take the shape of their host either. It
doesn't make sense. Chicken eggs in a hawks nest will still turn into chicken. It wasn't necessary

Not sure if you realize it, but the problem you have with that analogy is you're comparing real-life organisms to a sci-fi alien. Of course it's not going to make sense if you try to apply real world science to it. If you can find a creature with a mouth for a tongue and acidic blood that can't take the characteristics of its host organism, then I'll say your analogy is more appropriate.

Why not ask why the gestation period is only 1-24 hours and can grow to full size in less than a week, inside a person's stomach no less? No creature on earth can do that either.

I think we can suspend disbelief a bit to allow the alien to gestate quickly, but the creature that came out wasn't a human/alien blend. It was alien. Now, if you want to imagine that the alien can somehow decide how it wants to morph in the hosts belly then we're good.

scottydoesntknow

The best argument against using this loophole to redefine the canon after the seminal films (or more precisely set it in stone) is the failure of every derivative film since Aliens.

It is best to leave as little 'nailed down' as possible, for the reasons you described, so the audience's imagination can work with the film. If your imagination prefers your interpretation that's fine, but when you, or a 3rd rate hack writer (Vincent Ward) forces that interpretation on the rest of us, a line has been crossed.

It reminds me of Lucas and his 'midichlorians'. That small and extremely clumsy footnote (made after the fact) is why I disregard the prequels and consider the original trinity as canon. I disregard the Alien knockoffs (anything after Aliens) the same way, and for the same reason.

scottydoesntknow: mikefinch: Do heart worms that affect a deer end up different then the same species of heart worm infecting a species of elk?

It was dumb. I dont think they should be able to take the shape of their host either. It
doesn't make sense. Chicken eggs in a hawks nest will still turn into chicken. It wasn't necessary

Not sure if you realize it, but the problem you have with that analogy is you're comparing real-life organisms to a sci-fi alien. Of course it's not going to make sense if you try to apply real world science to it. If you can find a creature with a mouth for a tongue and acidic blood that can't take the characteristics of its host organism, then I'll say your analogy is more appropriate.

Why not ask why the gestation period is only 1-24 hours and can grow to full size in less than a week, inside a person's stomach no less? No creature on earth can do that either.

We have such things to show you...

Link to a lifeform on earth whose lifecycle would make a xenomorph squeamish (new window)

Now, after watching that. You may wish to retract your previous statement. And on topic, speaking from human biology, it is statistically impossible for the alien to have any mechanism to interpret the DNA of the host. If it even is DNA based. It just doesn't make sense. The DNA for Chimpanzees to Humans is so different that we can't even produce sterile offspring. The suspension of disbelief that a creature could reproduce and incorporate 'useful' parts of the hosts DNA (if the host even HAS DNA) is way too hard to maintain. I mean, what if the alien came across Jabba the Hutt? Would we end up with a legless carapaceless sack of acid goo? The Blob?


That's all.

BTW, that clip I linked is not really safe for sanity. Such things were not meant for this world.