Being in the field of vaccine development (benchside) and public health (disease epidemiology) I find the continued practice of not getting vaccines incredibly stupid and selfish. A parent does have the right to decide what is good for their children, up to the point they are harming their child. Just as current childhood laws prevent starving of kids, beating of kids, or child labor I believe vaccines should also be included. More children died in the 30s-50s from disease then any of those other child protection factors (yes quote needed if I wasn't in lab I would find). The effectiveness of the smallpox and polio vaccine in particular have been the downfall of so many other vaccines more recently due to the elimination of such obviously child killing diseases. Parents with very little knowledge other than Fox news believe they know science and try to dictate to doctors what is correct.
Now if the parent actually has the willingness to read up on something (print out those journal articles, highlight and bring with you) than sure they at least are putting some effort in. But if they come in saying the news said this is bad or god hates vaccines, why can't we consider these parents to be risking their kids life? Hell I would consider it attempted murder in many cases as even if their kid doesn't die he could, and there is a good chance he may infect others who got the vaccine and did not seroconvert killing them. Parents have the right to raise their kid, but kids have the right to survive until adulthood. If a parent is unable to ensure this right, remove them.

These fools are forgetting the other edge of that "Freedom of Choice" sword.

They are free to do as they wish ... unless it hurts someone else. Having their kids run around as a breeding ground for disease hurts others. Therefore, the government is well within their rights to enforce mandatory vaccinations.

Parents were most likely to skip vaccination against H1N1 (swine flu) and seasonal flu, the study says.

Well, unless you are in kindergarten or below, well past retirement age, or deal closely with one or the other groups on a regular basis, seasonal flu is going to be a mild inconvenience at worst and realistically you're not even going to vector it to anyone that'll be harmed.

And H1N1, iirc, was fairly localized so the chances of even being exposed are vanishingly small.

So that part of the survey actually shows parents to be surprisingly logical. Unfortunately, the fact that whooping cough is still around and apparently there was an outbreak of measles of all things recently sort of shows that for a false impression.

Honest Bender: [...] which spaces out vaccines to avoid giving several shots at once.

Which makes the vaccines not work. The doctors didn't just throw darts at a calendar to decide the current vaccination schedule. Science damn it, people are retarded.

I assumed they were talking about avoiding combination vaccines like MMR and getting measles, mumps and rubella separately on different days, but your interpretation makes more sense as to why doctors would be upset about it. If I actually screwed with the timing of a series for an individual vaccination my father would probably find me and kick my ass (he's in medicine).

When my daughter was born, she was really small (she was 5 pounds 1/2 oz at her first doctor visit). With the vaccine protocol, they basically recommend doing some shots immediately, in particular one of the hepatitis shots. We talked to the pediatrician about it, and found out they do that routinely for mothers who don't get prenatal care. My wife tested negative, so there wasn't a reason to rush it. So we passed until she was a little bigger, and now she's almost 2 and fully up to date with them. I think she might have ended up 2 months behind in a few shots, but the pediatrician was fine with it. If he's happy, we're happy.

And besides, to get up into preschool you have to have the vaccines.

But no, just because a doctor has an MD hanging on the wall doesn't mean they know a damned thing about medicine.

skullkrusher: just took the boy for 3 innocs in 2 needles, getting a kick, etc



Enoch!

what?

Oh also the idea that a child can't handle more then 1 or 2 vaccines at once is incredibly naive. Even at birth the adaptive immune system can handle tens of thousands of foreign antigens for B and T cell activation. Two shots of single antigen vaccines (inactivated/protein base vaccines) will be no different to the immune system then 5 or 10. It is a matter of the parents trying to be friends with their crying kids instead of being parents.

gadian: Had the little boy vaccinated for the first time saturday. Dad had to take him to the appointment because I didn't want to watch. Little guy screamed all day, ran a fever all day yesterday, and is still grumpy as all hell this morning. I tried to explain that he's sick now so he won't be sick later, but being a two month old, he doesn't give a flying fark and screams at mommy just the same. That horrible, ear piercing, angry, omg can't you see I hurt you dumb biatch scream. Don't shake the baby. Don't shake the baby.

Its for your own good. Scream at mommy now from her arms or from an iron lung later.

If he's 2months old I highly doubt he is actively blaming you. He just feels miserable and is letting the world know.

Find some of his favorite things to occupy him and keep him dosed with your preferred brand of child pain reliever (if there is one for that young? I can't remember). Schedule the timing of the doses based on the directions, and give it to him even if he seems to be feeling okay. Hopefully it'll keep it from wearing off so far as to make him feel miserable again, and keep him feeling better for the entire stretch.

/my son was great about shots. calmed down almost instantly after they were done, was perhaps a bit more tired the next day, but otherwise okay.
//as he got older we would make a special trip to McDonalds for some ice cream and time on the playground. This is about the only time we go so it's a big deal for him.
///so glad they are coming out with the hypospray and patch now!

I know it's fun to foam at the mouth, but I have to point out that an alternative vaccine schedule still gives kids full protection before they're old enough to go to preschool. So long as Little Susie doesn't get dumped off at day care, she should be fine. Besides, if this gets paranoid parents to protect their damn kids, I'm all for it.

Free Range Deranged: I'd be a lot more outraged if I didn't know that doctors and Big Pharm had their own agendas about what to give people and when to give it to them.

Yeah, you can't believe the Jenny McCarthy of the world, but I'm skeptical that a bunch of different drugs for a bunch of different things is 'better' given all at one time.

/Of course, my snowflake was treated according to the book, but that's different.

Do you believe that letting children play in the dirt occasionally, run around outside, scrape their knees a little, etc. is more healthy than raising them in a Lysol home? Statistics suggest that this is true.

Well, that's because they are getting exposed to lots of different antigens at once. Stepping on one dirty nail is a MUCH bigger hit to the ol' immune system than a vaccine.

The immune system gets a little neurotic when it doesn't have something to kill.

That said, spacing out different vaccines isn't a big hit to anything but your pocketbook.

plewis: We had our child vaccinated fully but we did spread out a couple shots if we knew we were coming back anyway. It was less about a concern for vaccine safety and more about "once the kid gets stabbed twice, it's time to give him a break." We were always within the recommended window so no one really noticed. Was this an alternative? I've no idea. All I know is that in order to keep the kicks to my face to a minimum, I was willing to go back a few extra times.

\Now if they could just vaccinate them against that farking peanut allergy, I'd sleep a lot easier at night.

Do I have good news for you

Scientist are diligently working on a desensitization routine. (new window).

Not an outright cure of course, but it is something.

All natural, no dyes. That's a good business - all-natural children's toys. Those toy companies, they don't arbitrarily mark up their frogs. They don't lie about how much they spend on research and development. And the worst that a toy company can be accused of is making a really boring frog. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. You know another really good business? Teeny tiny baby coffins. You can get them in frog green, fire engine red. Really. The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect the kid for six months, which is why these companies think they can gouge you. They think that you'll spend whatever they ask to keep your kid alive. Want to change things? Prove them wrong. A few hundred parents like you decide they'd rather let their kid die then cough up 40 bucks for a vaccination, believe me, prices will drop *really* fast. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.

jchic: AbbeySomeone: Parents have the right to make decisions that they feel are best for their children.

Just like those parents whose children die when they try to 'pray' away disease.

just like those who obaaaaay blindly to what the pharmaceutical industry tells them.

tricycleracer: AbbeySomeone: Parents have the right to make decisions that they feel are best for their children.

Maximum trolling.

If only. It would be a magnificent troll in that case: a single, short sentence that none-the-less compels half the thread to angrily respond. That's textbook trolling there.

Regretably, AbbeySomeone is a known, genuine anti-vaxer. And she and her numerous ilk will be a massive problem for years to come. At least until the herd immunity drops below that magic threshold, and their numbers get thinned.

My parents are so grateful for the vaccines that were available against diseases that their generation had suffered through, such as Measles, Mumps, TB, and the big one, Polio. I am so grateful that my children were vaccinated against these too. I am thrilled that my grandkids do not know the horrors of the Chickenpox. Maybe my great grandkids will never fear HIV/AIDS and Diabetes.

Autism. Don't know why that happens.

MaestroJ: Oh sweet a vaccination thread AND circumcision thread on the same day? All we need is a cat claw-clipping thread and my day off will be made perfect.

may as well throw in a creationism thread

AbbeySomeone: Parents have the right to make decisions that they feel are best for their children.

Yes, but they are wrong. We just want them to learn to align their ideas with actual reality before they make a decision.

Guidette Frankentits: AbbeySomeone: Parents have the right to make decisions that they feel are best for their children.

And the government has a right to take those kids away.

I don't actually see why the government should take those kids away. Nor do I see in other replies to AbbeySomeone how this is such an obvious troll. There is no doubt vaccination is by far the best choice for your kids. But not vaccinating your kids is not actively harming them. There is no doubt breastfeeding is by far the best choice for your kids but I don't think we should mandate breastfeeding. There is no doubt eating vegetables is by far the best choice for your kids but I don't think we should mandate breastfeeding.

And that last one is by far the most relevant. The number of diseases and conditions that result from the shiat diets and lack of exercise kids get that could be easily eradicated if we just fed our kids and made them go outside is significantly higher than 200 kids who got Measles last year.

I think everyone should get their kids vaccinated, make their kids eat healthy, exercise and whatnot but I don't actually think the government should be legislating parenting.

I'm not anti-vaccine, but I honestly can't remember the last time I had a flu shot.

MaestroJ: Oh sweet a vaccination thread AND circumcision thread on the same day? All we need is a cat claw-clipping thread and my day off will be made perfect.

Wait, people get uptight about cat claw clipping. Or do you mean de-clawing? Those are two very different things.

//oh shiat, I'm doing something like you'd see in one of those threads, aren't I?

AbbeySomeone: Parents have the right to make decisions that they feel are best for their children.

Not when they expect society to accept their children.

omeganuepsilon: AbbeySomeone: Parents have the right to make decisions that they feel are best for their children.

Simple troll is simple, and WILDLY effective.

10/10


Plausibility, kids.
That's the key to a good troll.
Plausible derp.

My son was vaccinated on an alternative schedule.......because there was a vaccine shortage.

I have two children that are not vaccinated for medical reason. I would rather have people vaccinated on an alternative schedule than not at all.

It's funny how contrary people can be. I can think of very large population bases that would've stood in line for days and probably given everything they owned to get a vaccination.

/not having to watch 9 out of every 10 people you know, or are related to, die is very motivating
//also, if the gov't was trying to kill you, they'd give you blankets, not vaccinations.

AbbeySomeone: Parents have the right to make decisions that they feel are best for their children.

Oh, and they have no right to endanger the lives of other people's children. The needs of one moran do not override the needs of many.

Doctors are not geniuses and saints. Most doctors tow the party line, and do what is easiest (and no doubt most profitable) for their practice. We have opted to spread out the vaccines for our son. This doesn't mean he is not vaccinated, it means he doesn't get multiple doses stuck in him at once. As informed and concerned parents, we decided this is not only reasonable, but the safer choice. We know people whose kids have weird reactions to vaccines, and we sign the papers that admit there is a chance of a bad reaction. Most of the educated parents around us are doing the same.

I really question the intelligence of all you people who think Doctor Knows Best no matter what. There is a lot of information to be had today, it behooves you to be aware of it and advocate for yourself and your family, because a lot of doctors today treat you like one in a herd of cattle.

By the way, I bet a lot of the people grousing about the alternate vaccine schedulers are the same people biatching that people whose houses are in foreclosure shoud've read the contract better . . .

Kirk's_Toupee: jchic: AbbeySomeone: Parents have the right to make decisions that they feel are best for their children.

Just like those parents whose children die when they try to 'pray' away disease.

just like those who obaaaaay blindly to what the pharmaceutical industry tells them.

Oh, this outta be good. Please explain the Pharamaceutical Industry's prerogative for immunizing children against diseases.

YourEtcetera: tow the party line

This is where I figured out that whatever you were going to say was going to be retarded.

Why do people associate anti-vaxers with tea-baggers? I thought they were more of the hippy, alt-med, "chemicals are bad" sort of people.

the vaccines are important for adults too. When was the last time you got a whooping cough vaccine? Childhood? Then you are probably a carrier yourself. Vaccines do not last for an entire lifetime. They need to be boosted. Most common ailment of a freshman living in the dorm in college is whooping cough. When was the last time you had your tetanus boosted?

/do you get it now?
//get your farking vaccines boosted and quit being a hypocrite

AbbeySomeone: Parents have the right to make decisions that they feel are best for their children.

Do you have the right to abuse them and use them to make everyone miserable?

jst3p: YourEtcetera: tow the party line

This is where I figured out that whatever you were going to say was going to be retarded.

i guess i won't bear my sole here then.

YourEtcetera: Doctors are not geniuses and saints.

I do agree with this, I think most Doctors just follow whatever procedures were drawn up by scientists. And sure, most of those scientists may be M.Ds, but I'm willing to bet most M.Ds are not scientists and are simply following procedures.

asurferosa: Vaccines do not last for an entire lifetime.

Some do and some do not.

lennavan: There is no doubt vaccination is by far the best choice for your kids. But not vaccinating your kids is not actively harming them.

No, but it is quite possibly harming other people who are not your children, when your children catch and pass on diseases that otherwise they would not to those who are either too young to be vaccinated (infants) or too frail to fight off the infections even if vaccinated (the elderly).

And it also most definitely passively harming them. Increasing someone's chance of serious infectious disease that has potentially life-threatening or life-altering complications is definitely a form of harm, even if it is not an active one.

BeesNuts: Kirk's_Toupee: jchic: AbbeySomeone: Parents have the right to make decisions that they feel are best for their children.

Just like those parents whose children die when they try to 'pray' away disease.

just like those who obaaaaay blindly to what the pharmaceutical industry tells them.

Oh, this outta be good. Please explain the Pharamaceutical Industry's prerogative for immunizing children against diseases.

See, that's the thing.

The medical industry stands to make a buttload more money treating the diseases and any debilitating conditions left as a result of catching an otherwise preventable disease than they do offering vaccines.

$15-40 for a vaccine, or the $3,000+ per day for hospitalization, plus whatever expensive drugs they use while hospitalized?

The anti-vax crusade really a Big Pharma conspiracy to help them make more money off of treatments rather than prevention.

YourEtcetera: Doctors are not geniuses and saints. Most doctors tow the party line, and do what is easiest (and no doubt most profitable) for their practice. We have opted to spread out the vaccines for our son. This doesn't mean he is not vaccinated, it means he doesn't get multiple doses stuck in him at once. As informed and concerned parents, we decided this is not only reasonable, but the safer choice. We know people whose kids have weird reactions to vaccines, and we sign the papers that admit there is a chance of a bad reaction. Most of the educated parents around us are doing the same.

I really question the intelligence of all you people who think Doctor Knows Best no matter what. There is a lot of information to be had today, it behooves you to be aware of it and advocate for yourself and your family, because a lot of doctors today treat you like one in a herd of cattle.

By the way, I bet a lot of the people grousing about the alternate vaccine schedulers are the same people biatching that people whose houses are in foreclosure shoud've read the contract better . . .


All of that information that's available is also there for doctors to read. As informed as you are by reading the literature, they are more so because of the wealth of background knowledge they have to go with it. There are legitimate reasons to alter the schedule, but most of the reasons people offer are bullshiat. There is also a certain amount of wiggle room in the normal schedule if someone wants to change things for whatever reasons and still be within the recommended time frame. This is what I've learned talking to my brother and his wife (both doctors) about their own kid's vaccinations.

AbbeySomeone: Parents have the right to make decisions that they feel are best for their children.

If those decisions endanger the lives of other children, no they don't. My mother may have felt it was best for me to go to school when I had strep throat so that I didn't miss any course work/tests, but she also knew it was important for me not to infect any other students, so I kept my happy little ass at home. My teacher came by every day to bring my homework, I didn't fall behind, no one else got sick. Win-win all around. Plus, with strep throat, I got all the ice cream/jello/milkshakes a 7-year old girl could possibly dream of. It's a miracle I didn't gain 50lbs.

YourEtcetera: I really question the intelligence of all you people who think Doctor Knows Best no matter what. There is a lot of information to be had today, it behooves you to be aware of it and advocate for yourself and your family, because a lot of doctors today treat you like one in a herd of cattle.

Funny, I question the intelligence of people who think they know better than a doctor. YOU MAY HAVE GONE TO MED SCHOOL FOR 4 YEARS, RESIDENCY FOR 4 MORE AND SO ON BUT I HAVE A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA AND KNOW HOW TO GOOGLE SO I KNOW MORE THAN YOU.

For srsly.

Fish in a Barrel: Why do people associate anti-vaxers with tea-baggers? I thought they were more of the hippy, alt-med, "chemicals are bad" sort of people.

It cuts across all socio-economic strata, from lefty hippies to the extreme social conservative teabaggers.

Different reasons, the one I hear from the right is about "liberty"

Bad doctors don't listen to the parents of the children. There are things about my child about which I know more than her pediatrician does. When to have her vaccinated is not one of those things.

lennavan: asurferosa

Go get your titers check and find out which ones are still working for you!

Oh yeah, just so people are aware in case they missed it, AbbeySomeone is not a troll. They are a genuine anti-vaxxer. If only it were easy enough to lump them with [Black] [Animal] and our favorite Internet dentist.

Free Range Deranged: I'm skeptical that a bunch of different drugs for a bunch of different things is 'better' given all at one time.

And you base this skepticism on what, exactly? Your gut? About 3 hours of Internet forum discussion?

KiltedBastich: lennavan: There is no doubt vaccination is by far the best choice for your kids. But not vaccinating your kids is not actively harming them.

No

Which is why I think it should be legal to not vaccinate your kids.

KiltedBastich: but it is quite possibly harming other people who are not your children

Which is why I think schools amongst other public places should be allowed to ban your unvaccinated little parasite incubator from entering.

KiltedBastich: And it also most definitely passively harming them. Increasing someone's chance of serious infectious disease that has potentially life-threatening or life-altering complications is definitely a form of harm, even if it is not an active one.

This is a horrible slippery slope. Not breastfeeding is passively harming them for the exact same reason. Taking your kid to McDonalds is passively harming them. Not feeding your kids vegetables is passively harming them. Letting your kid be overweight is passively harming them. Not making them exercise is passively harming them. And so on.

I have this belief that in this country, you should be allowed to be a crappy parent, so long as you're not abusing your kids. I just don't see not vaccinating them is the same as abuse.