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(Some Guy)   Six careers you can transition to without a Bachelor's Degree. FARK: Four of them require Bachelor's Degrees   (education.yahoo.net) divider line 251
    More: Asinine  
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26316 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Sep 2011 at 5:20 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



251 Comments   (+0 »)
   

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2011-09-26 05:21:39 PM
WHAR IS FAIL TAG, WHAR!?!
 
2011-09-26 05:24:09 PM
You can still be a crack whore without a degree. But I think you need certification to be a pimp
 
2011-09-26 05:24:24 PM
Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!
 
2011-09-26 05:24:31 PM
I don't understand this "career transition" concept. I've never run across a job that didn't require significant prior experience in the exact same job.

/e.g. 5 years each Java, C#, and JCL
 
2011-09-26 05:24:36 PM
You may be able to get a job teaching without a bachelors degree in education if the state you live in has lax standards or you have an existing degree and experience in the subject you would be teaching.
 
2011-09-26 05:25:28 PM
Annual Average Earning Potential: $29,760*

Wow! Sign me up!

You don't need a degree to be a Network admin, you need experience. The degree might get you your first entry level phone job but I know a lot of people who got their foot in the door without one.

The trick is you have to be good.
 
2011-09-26 05:27:04 PM
Option #3 here... And most of what I do all day is fix the errors of the 'non-degree' staff, so NO.
 
2011-09-26 05:27:52 PM

sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!


This.

That said, I've managed 13 years in IT without a degree. Mostly because I'm an autodidact.
 
2011-09-26 05:29:34 PM

groppet: You can still be a crack whore without a degree. But I think you need certification to be a pimp


You can get classes for that online pretty cheap, though. The real bad news in that line of work is that you have to buy your own uniform.
 
2011-09-26 05:29:53 PM

sammyk: Please don't say ITteacher! Please don't say ITteacher!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us.


I suspect most of the others on this list are also not too fond of having their ranks swelled by people who only thought of them as "fall-back careers."
 
2011-09-26 05:32:08 PM

Evil Twin Skippy: I'm an autodidact.


Did you have to take yoga to learn to do that?
 
2011-09-26 05:32:39 PM
I'm fine with a degree being useful to get your foot in the door. What pisses me off far more are companies that insist on degrees no matter the qualifications and experience. One company in town requires a four year degree for all IT staff, all the way down to the cable monkeys.

Even if you have a degree, if you see a company that has a hard line requiring a degree then I take that a sign to run away. That is a company letting HR do all their hiring and not the department staff that really knows what they are doing and what they need. You're bound to end up working in a college dorm environment with people who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.
 
2011-09-26 05:33:19 PM

toraque: groppet: You can still be a crack whore without a degree. But I think you need certification to be a pimp

You can get classes for that online pretty cheap, though. The real bad news in that line of work is that you have to buy your own uniform.


www.afro-squad.com
 
2011-09-26 05:33:24 PM
Computer Support Specialist - Annual Average Earning Potential: $49,930*

#1. The article isn't an article, it's a commercial ad for certificate mills.
#2. The one fact above tells me the rest is suspect. I'm in IT, and while it may be plausible for somebody dropping workstations on desks to be making that salary in a high cost of living area, it definately ain't going to be the average.
 
2011-09-26 05:33:50 PM

sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!


I know of no one from the "business world" that goes into IT. Its usually the other way around. And most careers in IT don't require a 4 year degree. Technical college or mentor-ships do nicely.

/Security Architect - no degree
//the real problem is experience and leadership skills
 
2011-09-26 05:34:21 PM
All of those professions require a degree, unless you want to be a dumbass in your field.

With a degree versus without:

1) Medical Administrator vs secretary
2) Paralegal vs coffee and file fetcher
3) Accountant vs excel spreadsheet guy
4) IT Professional vs you'll be working with a lot of high schoolers
5) Classroom Teacher vs baby sitter
6) Net Admin vs you assist the guy who pulls cable
 
2011-09-26 05:34:40 PM
Did you have to take yoga to learn to do that?

He's probably just double jointed.
 
2011-09-26 05:34:48 PM
FTFA: "There are many career opportunities open to applicants with only an associate's degree...."

Oh. Ah.

Nevermind

\degreeless mechanical designer who spends most of time fixing degreed engineers' mistakes
 
2011-09-26 05:35:45 PM

Evil Twin Skippy: sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

This.

That said, I've managed 13 years in IT without a degree. Mostly because I'm an autodidact.


I can't disagree with anything either of you said (especially as I've never met Evil Twin Skippy IRL and have no reason to doubt his self-description as an autodidact) but technically, the article is correct. My BA is not at all tech related and I work in IT too; a Bachelor's strictly isn't necessary for this job.

What they don't tell you is you shouldn't get into IT if you aren't the rare person who works as well with people as they do with computers. Otherwise if you're considering IT it's because you're good with computers (like I was, and still am), maybe so-so with people but are stumped at finding something else that will pay while not doing something more annoying; I personally consider this how I pay the bills until I write the Minecraft Killer game.
 
2011-09-26 05:35:54 PM
Question are jobs with degrees harder to find or is it just everyone is getting a diploma now and those who can't actually do the job are the ones that can't be hired, or had degrees from the 70's and aren't relevent today.
 
2011-09-26 05:38:23 PM
WHAR JOURNALISM YAHOO WHAR
 
2011-09-26 05:38:55 PM
 
2011-09-26 05:39:25 PM

Fubini:
With a degree versus without:

4) IT Professional vs you'll be working with a lot of high schoolers
6) Net Admin vs you assist the guy who pulls cable


I really have to disagree with those. I've experienced exactly the opposite. The college grads come out with no real world experience, a head full of theory and no practice, and a piece of paper and loan bills that make them feel entitled.

I'd take the person who spent their time with computing as a hobby over someone who just got a degree in it as a career choice any day.

I've met plenty of the latter. They are the ones debugging code but don't know how to turn their PC on. The former are the ones stuck teaching them how and trying to do their own real work (usually at a higher quality as well).
 
2011-09-26 05:39:59 PM
farm4.static.flickr.com

Always wanted to try to become a para-eagles. I just don't have the genes for it.
 
2011-09-26 05:40:27 PM

EZ1923: sammyk: Please don't say ITteacher! Please don't say ITteacher!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us.

I suspect most of the others on this list are also not too fond of having their ranks swelled by people who only thought of them as "fall-back careers."


Agreed! Respect the profession or stay the dark out of it.
 
2011-09-26 05:41:03 PM
In theory, you could become a foreign service officer with the Department of State with no more than a high school diploma. There's no education requirement.

In practice, you'd stand a better chance getting elected to Congress and it'd probably be cheaper than the educations of most people who generally come to that table.
 
2011-09-26 05:41:36 PM
We need more hottie paralegals. Here in South Florida, there are more old hags than young cuties.
 
hej
2011-09-26 05:42:37 PM
#7) Yahoo! columnist.
 
2011-09-26 05:44:24 PM

Evil Twin Skippy: sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

This.

That said, I've managed 13 years in IT without a degree. Mostly because I'm an autodidact.


Autodidacts for the win. I manage a bunch of writers and the best ones are the ones who simply come by it naturally and are addicted to teaching themselves.

Having said that, if you want a high-paying job right now in the ad industry, become a social media expert. We are hurting for people. Anyone who's smart can teach themselves. If you're better than I am at it (I'm pretty good but I don't have time to specialize in that sort of thing), I will hire you.
 
2011-09-26 05:45:06 PM
Gaseous Anomaly:
I don't understand this "career transition" concept. I've never run across a job that didn't require significant prior experience in the exact same job.

/e.g. 5 years each Java, C#, and JCL


IT manager required. Must have 10 years' experience with Web 2.0 apps and Firefox 4.

Ah screw it, eventually everyone will be classified as "indentured laborer" and our kids' only hope for upward mobility will be service in the police or armed forces, or for the prettier ones, becoming a concubine to the elite.
 
hej
2011-09-26 05:45:26 PM
Also, I'm highly skeptical of this $50k/year "earning potential" for doing PC tech support.
 
2011-09-26 05:46:13 PM

Crotchrocket Slim: Evil Twin Skippy: sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

This.

That said, I've managed 13 years in IT without a degree. Mostly because I'm an autodidact.

I can't disagree with anything either of you said (especially as I've never met Evil Twin Skippy IRL and have no reason to doubt his self-description as an autodidact) but technically, the article is correct. My BA is not at all tech related and I work in IT too; a Bachelor's strictly isn't necessary for this job.

What they don't tell you is you shouldn't get into IT if you aren't the rare person who works as well with people as they do with computers. Otherwise if you're considering IT it's because you're good with computers (like I was, and still am), maybe so-so with people but are stumped at finding something else that will pay while not doing something more annoying; I personally consider this how I pay the bills until I write the Minecraft Killer game.


One of the problems with what "they" tell you is that "they" usually don't know what they're talking about.

There are lots of IT jobs that don't require interaction with customers if you know where to look and you want to specialize into that role. Similarly, there are lots of IT jobs that are almost entirely customer-oriented and require very little technical expertise, comparatively. Of those jobs that require a lot of expertise there are still yet jobs that don't require and do require lots of customer interaction.

In my brief stint in IT (about 5 years at the lower-levels) this is roughly how it shook out in my institution. Your mileage my vary.

Low skill, low interaction: hardware support tech, cable puller
Low skill, high interaction: basic help-desk, printer tech, web programmers
High skill, low interaction: network engineer, database admin, web admin
High skill, high interaction: technical director, system admin, network admin
 
2011-09-26 05:47:18 PM

sammyk: EZ1923: sammyk: Please don't say ITteacher! Please don't say ITteacher!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us.

I suspect most of the others on this list are also not too fond of having their ranks swelled by people who only thought of them as "fall-back careers."

Agreed! Respect the profession or stay the dark out of it.


Did you mean to say "duck"?
 
2011-09-26 05:48:01 PM

sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!


My six figure income and no degree frowns at you. However, when I got started in the field there wasn't much in the way of degrees in IT.

/and get off my farkin' lawn
 
2011-09-26 05:49:06 PM
Medical Assistant:
Ready to be treated like dirt by everyone above you? Ready to earn a tenth or less of the money the doctor's earn? Do you like taking people's temperature...rectally? This job is for you!

Paralegal:
Do you want to work long hours researching arcane legal precedents without that cumbersome money? Are you ready to "take one for the team" and accept blame when the lawyer fails? Do you like watching everyone else get a bonus while you go home and eat tuna from a can? This job is for you!

Accountant:
I'm sorry you uneducated piece of filth. You need a degree.

Computer Support Specialist:
Do you like people screaming at you to "fix my gotdam computer, you farging scumbag geek"? Do you like explaining to teenagers and old people that downloading that much porn from filesharing sites is bound to infect you with every virus and malware known to man? Do you enjoy reading from a script without having to know how to fix a thing? Can you say, "Please hold and I'll escalate you to level 2"? Then this job is for you!

Teacher:
I'm sorry you uneducated piece of filth. You need a degree. And certifications. And you won't be able to teach in California unless you get your degree and certifications from California, but then you won't be able to teach in the other 57 49 states.

Network Administrators:
Can you afford to pay $200+ to take standardized tests? Can you pass standardized tests with knowledge you get by reading a book? Can you lie through your teeth about your previous experience? Do you like spitting on those lowly tech support dweebs? Then this job is for you!
 
2011-09-26 05:49:18 PM
where is Yahoo employee on that list?
 
2011-09-26 05:49:31 PM

Evil Twin Skippy: sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

This.

That said, I've managed 13 years in IT without a degree. Mostly because I'm an autodidact.


The better IT guys are autodidacts. They want to learn how to make their jobs easier and more efficient (but mostly just easier). Spending a week or two learning PHP-SOAP and some Windows DCOM as well as reverse engineering a IP protocol meant I could shove provisioning VSAT satellite packs off onto other people and get back to doing nothing.

All with an A.S. in Electronics Engineering from ITT.
 
2011-09-26 05:51:09 PM

sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will MIGHT fail in IT!


No bachelors and >100k architect position. You're right about the studying, though. I probably put in 20 hours a week at home just reading up and toying with new technologies... it's hardly noticeable since I enjoy the time spent, though.

It's those with bachelors that come into the field as a 2nd career (usually post-military) that seem to cap out at mid-level IT positions. Most are already established with families, though, so I imagine it's hard for them to form good workshop habits.
 
2011-09-26 05:51:24 PM

sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!


Sure, it take 4 years of college to learn how to plug in a cable and hit the power button. Got it.
 
2011-09-26 05:51:37 PM

groppet: You can still be a crack whore without a degree. But I think you need certification to be a pimp


i291.photobucket.com

Worst job in America? That's right... Assistant crack whore.
 
2011-09-26 05:51:41 PM

Crotchrocket Slim: Evil Twin Skippy: sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

This.

That said, I've managed 13 years in IT without a degree. Mostly because I'm an autodidact.

I can't disagree with anything either of you said (especially as I've never met Evil Twin Skippy IRL and have no reason to doubt his self-description as an autodidact) but technically, the article is correct. My BA is not at all tech related and I work in IT too; a Bachelor's strictly isn't necessary for this job.

What they don't tell you is you shouldn't get into IT if you aren't the rare person who works as well with people as they do with computers. Otherwise if you're considering IT it's because you're good with computers (like I was, and still am), maybe so-so with people but are stumped at finding something else that will pay while not doing something more annoying; I personally consider this how I pay the bills until I write the Minecraft Killer game.


You need more exposure. More cynicism. More BOFH thinking. Like, "works as well with people as they do computers" = smacking the side of the case to get the fan to stop grinding. Abuse. It works. It works well.
 
hej
2011-09-26 05:52:58 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: I don't understand this "career transition" concept. I've never run across a job that didn't require significant prior experience in the exact same job.

/e.g. 5 years each Java, C#, and JCL


If you're good at memorizing keywords and high level examples of how stuff works, you could probably lie your way through an interview that only required a year or two of experience. If you have zero mores or principles, you can then do like the guy who did that to us, and try to get somebody else to spend all of their time doing your job for you vicariously through them by asking them to show you the most ridiculously fundamental aspects of your job imaginable. After you've done this a few times (most places will take a little while to fire you if you're billing yourself as entry level), you'll eventually be legitimately competent to do entry level work.
 
2011-09-26 05:53:21 PM

sammyk: If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!


You do realize that almost all of the technology you use in IT was invented by people who did not have a degree in IT, right?
 
2011-09-26 05:53:36 PM

hej: Also, I'm highly skeptical of this $50k/year "earning potential" for doing PC tech support.


Perhaps embezzlement is included.
 
2011-09-26 05:54:53 PM
College is for suckers.
 
2011-09-26 05:55:37 PM

hej: Gaseous Anomaly: I don't understand this "career transition" concept. I've never run across a job that didn't require significant prior experience in the exact same job.

/e.g. 5 years each Java, C#, and JCL

If you're good at memorizing keywords and high level examples of how stuff works, you could probably lie your way through an interview that only required a year or two of experience. If you have zero mores or principles, you can then do like the guy who did that to us, and try to get somebody else to spend all of their time doing your job for you vicariously through them by asking them to show you the most ridiculously fundamental aspects of your job imaginable. After you've done this a few times (most places will take a little while to fire you if you're billing yourself as entry level), you'll eventually be legitimately competent to do entry level work.


I assumed this was how all entry level programming positions worked and the requirements on Dice were just sudoku puzzles to demonstrate your attention span is long enough to sit at the desk and read the for dummies book.
 
2011-09-26 05:55:48 PM

sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!


I've been in IT for 8 years now and don't have a bachelor's. Pretty much at this point I've nailed every interview because I am personable and have way more experience than the kid fresh out of college. With this job I was actually interviewed against two candidates with bachelors and still got the job.

I still worry what would happen if I ever needed to change jobs, but in the end I don't feel like dropping $50k on a piece of paper.
 
2011-09-26 05:57:16 PM

Evil Twin Skippy: sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

This.

That said, I've managed 13 years in IT without a degree. Mostly because I'm an autodidact.


And you still haven't accidentally hung yourself? Good for you, safety first. Always use a spotter.
 
2011-09-26 05:57:39 PM

KierzanDax: Network Administrators:
Can you afford to pay $200+ to take standardized tests? Can you pass standardized tests with knowledge you get by reading a book? Can you lie through your teeth about your previous experience? Do you like spitting on those lowly tech support dweebs? Then this job is for you!


You make it sounds so easy!
 
2011-09-26 05:58:01 PM
Don't bother with paralegal certification. The market is saturated with people who got paralegal certification because it's super easy to get. You won't be able to find a job as a paralegal. Also, it doesn't really pay that much unless you have a lot of experience. You may as well go to law school.
 
2011-09-26 05:58:39 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: hej: Also, I'm highly skeptical of this $50k/year "earning potential" for doing PC tech support.

Perhaps embezzlement is included.


My firm is based in the bay area and that's what we pay.
 
2011-09-26 05:59:37 PM

Draskuul: I'm fine with a degree being useful to get your foot in the door. What pisses me off far more are companies that insist on degrees no matter the qualifications and experience. One company in town requires a four year degree for all IT staff, all the way down to the cable monkeys.

Even if you have a degree, if you see a company that has a hard line requiring a degree then I take that a sign to run away. That is a company letting HR do all their hiring and not the department staff that really knows what they are doing and what they need. You're bound to end up working in a college dorm environment with people who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.


^^^
THIS

They just hired a girl here to be admin manager because she had a degree, yet has absolutely no experience in it. But she has a degree.
 
2011-09-26 06:00:29 PM

DarthBart: Evil Twin Skippy: sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

This.

That said, I've managed 13 years in IT without a degree. Mostly because I'm an autodidact.

The better IT guys are autodidacts. They want to learn how to make their jobs easier and more efficient (but mostly just easier). Spending a week or two learning PHP-SOAP and some Windows DCOM as well as reverse engineering a IP protocol meant I could shove provisioning VSAT satellite packs off onto other people and get back to doing nothing.

All with an A.S. in Electronics Engineering from ITT.


My second favorite line of all time is "I can replace you with five lines of shell."

My newest favorite line is "Yeah, now I'm in sales, but I'm still the best engineer at this company."

Both are 100% true.
 
hej
2011-09-26 06:01:17 PM

StaleCoffee: hej: Gaseous Anomaly: I don't understand this "career transition" concept. I've never run across a job that didn't require significant prior experience in the exact same job.

/e.g. 5 years each Java, C#, and JCL

If you're good at memorizing keywords and high level examples of how stuff works, you could probably lie your way through an interview that only required a year or two of experience. If you have zero mores or principles, you can then do like the guy who did that to us, and try to get somebody else to spend all of their time doing your job for you vicariously through them by asking them to show you the most ridiculously fundamental aspects of your job imaginable. After you've done this a few times (most places will take a little while to fire you if you're billing yourself as entry level), you'll eventually be legitimately competent to do entry level work.

I assumed this was how all entry level programming positions worked and the requirements on Dice were just sudoku puzzles to demonstrate your attention span is long enough to sit at the desk and read the for dummies book.


I've actually run across jobs that were actually legit "entry level" (i.e. did not require experience). I myself got started that way, and we've hired a couple of guys where I work knowing that they had zero prior experience. But generally I think people may stretch the truth about how much direct work experience they have, without really lying about what they actually know how to do. In the case above, we had a guy who clearly lied through his teeth about what he knew, which is surprised us since we had him provide task oriented "how would you do this" examples during the interview. Our best theory is that he just found some walkthroughs online and had a damn good memory.
 
2011-09-26 06:03:01 PM
Those jobs all suck.
 
2011-09-26 06:03:36 PM
Stay away from doing over-the-phone tech support. Stay away! It's one of those jobs that slowly kills your soul. That and it's completely unwinnable.

"My email isn't working!" "Ok, is your modem plugged into the back of your computer?" "I don't know, I can't see back there. The power is out."

"Yes, I have this critical issue I opened a ticket about hours ago." "Ticket number?" "Dunno." "Do you remember who you spoke to?" "Dunno."

And then of course the oldie but goodie, the one where a 110 year old lady calls in because she can't download twelve gigs of great-grandchildren pictures over her 33.6 baud modem that's apparently connect not with copper telephone wire but twine.

Like I said. It's unwinnable.
 
2011-09-26 06:03:37 PM

Benjimin_Dover: #1. The article isn't an article, it's a commercial ad for certificate mills.


That is correct Sir!

I'm a medical recruiter and Medical Assistant is about the most worthless certificate you can get.

School costs anywhere between 4 and 10 grand, takes a year, and all for a job you will never make more than 15 bucks a hour. Did I mention that every major city in the country has 4-5 MA schools that flood the markets with so many new grads that your odds of getting a job right out of school are like 1 in 5.

Its a total hustle. The schools charge big money for MA training, doctor's offices and occupational health clinics gets an endless supply of free labor because every MA graduate gets an 90 day unpaid externship for their resume, and the students get massively into debt and work for free to get a certificate allowing them an outside shot at getting a low paying job!

Now my English degree, that was a good investment.

/Takes drag of Evan WIlliams
//Puts one bullet in revolver
///Spin
////Click
//Better luck tomorrow.
 
2011-09-26 06:04:18 PM
Career Change Option #5: Teacher

Yeah, you could transition to a career that people are transitioning out of en masse to escape conservative butchering of pay and benefits. That's an idea.
 
hej
2011-09-26 06:04:22 PM

potato_chip_eating_geek: Gaseous Anomaly: hej: Also, I'm highly skeptical of this $50k/year "earning potential" for doing PC tech support.

Perhaps embezzlement is included.

My firm is based in the bay area and that's what we pay.


It sounds reasonable for Socal. However, the implication from TFA was that this was a national average. I am pretty sure that the average help desk job pays about half that here in the midwest.
 
2011-09-26 06:05:10 PM

bravian: sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

I know of no one from the "business world" that goes into IT. Its usually the other way around. And most careers in IT don't require a 4 year degree. Technical college or mentor-ships do nicely.

/Security Architect - no degree
//the real problem is experience and leadership skills


It doesn't happen as often as it is used to. Remember the 90's? I Fresh mcse's running amok with promises of a 60k salary to start, no es, experience needed ? This kind of article encourages that to happen again.
 
2011-09-26 06:05:29 PM
I didn't have a degree and changed careers and started on the help desk about 7 years ago, well after the boom. I made a lousy 32k a year. Moved around for a bit, and eventually saw i needed a degree to move away from the help desk. Worked my way towards my bachelors at 34 years old, and then moved into IT Audit, last was making 75k plus bonuses.
Now I am going for an IT Manager job making a lot more than that.

So if you want to get anywhere above the help desk, you'll need a degree. You might be able to move into a network admin,l but will need to kiss the network admin's ass for years.
 
2011-09-26 06:05:37 PM

UsikFark: KierzanDax: Network Administrators:
Can you afford to pay $200+ to take standardized tests? Can you pass standardized tests with knowledge you get by reading a book? Can you lie through your teeth about your previous experience? Do you like spitting on those lowly tech support dweebs? Then this job is for you!

You make it sounds so easy!


Can you grow a horrific beard? Fail to get hair cuts, wash clothes or clean your office space for months on end? Are you so socially abrasive any contact with humans that does not entirely revolve around exchanging stories of programmatic malfeasance scares and confuses you? Can you be _very_ strongly opinionated on the subject of obscure standards that are known to be broken and commonly circumvented? Can you treat your customers as a pack of wild ignorant savages whose only point of existence is to break the magic toys you claim as your domain?

Have I got a job for you.
 
2011-09-26 06:06:27 PM

1macgeek: sammyk: If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

You do realize that almost all of the technology you use in IT was invented by people who did not have a degree in IT, right?


I'm gonna have to agree with the fact you do not always need a degree...my BF works in IT (for the Dean's office and stuff, even) at the state university and he quit school (not even this school, he went to college in Guam). He's almost 40 and never went back...he thinks about it, but at this point in his career, it's almost moot and he plans on retiring here. It was harder for him to get the interview, but stellar references from people who will vouch you know your shiat still matter to some folks.
 
2011-09-26 06:08:07 PM

1macgeek: sammyk: If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

You do realize that almost all of the technology you use in IT was invented by people who did not have a degree in IT, right?


Including Hedy Lamarr, who held some base patents in early gate technology.

Most of the people who invented the technology used in IT had degrees in science or engineering. The people who exploited their inventions may have been mouth-breathing con-men, but that's another story.
 
2011-09-26 06:08:35 PM

hailin:
I've been in IT for 8 years now and don't have a bachelor's. Pretty much at this point I've nailed every interview because I am personable and have way more experience than the kid fresh out of college. With this job I was actually interviewed against two candidates with bachelors and still got the job.


So basically it took you 8 years to get to an interview to go against some candidates that spent 4 years in school. Not too promising.
 
2011-09-26 06:08:38 PM
FTFA: "If computers are your thing"

And by 'thing' we mean, you actually build and maintain your own systems, know how to load an OS from scratch, (any of them) and are familiar enough with systems to have a clue.

Not, Tommy down the street that knows how to take spy/mal ware off of Granny Clicks-a-lot's laptop, or you 'own a mac' or 'hacked your smart phone or an X-Box'.

You're bringing the whole effing market down.
Every biatch and their brother thinks they do "Computer Support" because they happen to get cheeto dust all over a keyboard more often than they do anything else.
 
2011-09-26 06:08:59 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Career Change Option #5: Teacher

Yeah, you could transition to a career that people are transitioning out of en masse to escape conservative butchering of pay and benefits. That's an idea.


FTFA: "Teachers are often revered as some of the most important working professionals." Well, prior to the recent achievements in propaganda.
 
2011-09-26 06:09:33 PM
FARK: Four of them One of the does NOT require Bachelor's Degrees

FTFthe article.

I worked in PC repair from the days of the 486 until 1995 and thanks to Microsoft's little new GUI I easily switched to small wan work/repair. I probably was the lowest paid IT "professional" in the United States. I didnt have a degree, I had to pay for the few certs I got out of my own pocket and I usually ended up training my bosses wherever I went. Having met many of my co-workers and employers who have comp-sci degrees and couldnt diag a hard drive with two copies of norton and all of the internet helping them I can safely say the most universities must be teaching these poor bastards technology from the 1950's. But hey, they get to add another couple 0's to the end of their paycheck. I have 15 years of networking experience and over 20 years of PC repair/diagnostic experience. Thanks to a absolute flood of college graduate IT hipsters, my chances of getting any job in my field that isnt a CSR reading off a script into a mouthpiece is pretty much nil.

Go to college? im 40 farking years old with 2 kids and a mother that needs looking after. I dont trust technical schools thanks to my wife getting screwed over by one. If I could square the money away for college to my kids I would sell off whats left of this old corpse for parts an call it a finish.

/any suggestions?
 
2011-09-26 06:12:14 PM

I Mash Grains: hailin:
I've been in IT for 8 years now and don't have a bachelor's. Pretty much at this point I've nailed every interview because I am personable and have way more experience than the kid fresh out of college. With this job I was actually interviewed against two candidates with bachelors and still got the job.

So basically it took you 8 years to get to an interview to go against some candidates that spent 4 years in school. Not too promising.


8 years being paid a salary versus 4 years paying tuition... hmmm.... which would I rather do...
 
2011-09-26 06:12:15 PM
As a degree-less advisory software engineer for a large company, I'm getting a kick, etc. etc.
 
2011-09-26 06:12:40 PM

hailin: sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

I've been in IT for 8 years now and don't have a bachelor's. Pretty much at this point I've nailed every interview because I am personable and have way more experience than the kid fresh out of college. With this job I was actually interviewed against two candidates with bachelors and still got the job.

I still worry what would happen if I ever needed to change jobs, but in the end I don't feel like dropping $50k on a piece of paper.


Been at it for 20. Your over the hump. If you get in career slump dump 4k into the latest vmware cert or whatever. A degree would be pointless for you. I don't have one either. I go with experience in interviews.
 
2011-09-26 06:12:53 PM
Web developer

\All you need is Google and Stack Overflow
\\Don't tell my boss
 
2011-09-26 06:13:36 PM

KierzanDax: Accountant:
I'm sorry you uneducated piece of filth. You need a degree.


You need a degree to be an accountant (well, actually, certifications, to be totally technical about it), but to be a bookkeeper, you don't need to hold a degree. And you can actually make money being a bookkeeper (not a lot, but it's a great job for PT, if say, you're a mom or something).
 
2011-09-26 06:14:04 PM

sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!


this is true, but you dont "need" a BS to be good at IT. you do, however, need to study harder than you do for a BS

/working on the BS because so many people require it now
//best friend has no degree but is a career it guy with 10 yrs exp and many certs to go with it, does decent enough, but is limited by lack of degree
 
2011-09-26 06:15:00 PM

sammyk: hailin: sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

I've been in IT for 8 years now and don't have a bachelor's. Pretty much at this point I've nailed every interview because I am personable and have way more experience than the kid fresh out of college. With this job I was actually interviewed against two candidates with bachelors and still got the job.

I still worry what would happen if I ever needed to change jobs, but in the end I don't feel like dropping $50k on a piece of paper.

Been at it for 20. Your over the hump. If you get in career slump dump 4k into the latest vmware cert or whatever. A degree would be pointless for you. I don't have one either. I go with experience in interviews.


He speaks the truth. Or spend $10K and learn ABAP.

The problem with IT degrees is that other than the core concepts, everything you learn becomes obsolete in about four years. Except SQL.
 
2011-09-26 06:15:13 PM

sammyk: If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!


I have a high school diploma and make well into six figures in IT. So... kinda depends on your bootstrappiness, I guess.
 
2011-09-26 06:15:50 PM

Evil Twin Skippy: sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

This.

That said, I've managed 13 years in IT without a degree. Mostly because I'm an autodidact.


You learned that word ALL BY YOURSELF! :)
 
2011-09-26 06:18:49 PM

I Mash Grains: hailin:
I've been in IT for 8 years now and don't have a bachelor's. Pretty much at this point I've nailed every interview because I am personable and have way more experience than the kid fresh out of college. With this job I was actually interviewed against two candidates with bachelors and still got the job.

So basically it took you 8 years to get to an interview to go against some candidates that spent 4 years in school. Not too promising.


No I've been here five years. At the time I had 3 years of experience and good references. Since then I've moved up the ladder and do more of the server/network management.
 
2011-09-26 06:18:54 PM

special20: I Mash Grains: hailin:
I've been in IT for 8 years now and don't have a bachelor's. Pretty much at this point I've nailed every interview because I am personable and have way more experience than the kid fresh out of college. With this job I was actually interviewed against two candidates with bachelors and still got the job.

So basically it took you 8 years to get to an interview to go against some candidates that spent 4 years in school. Not too promising.

8 years being paid a salary versus 4 years paying tuition... hmmm.... which would I rather do...


4 years in school. Hands down, easy decision. It was a priceless experience educationally and socially. Plus I was scholarshipped/granted up so I didn't spend a dime.

/law school on the other hand...ugh.
 
2011-09-26 06:18:56 PM

hej: StaleCoffee: hej: Gaseous Anomaly: I don't understand this "career transition" concept. I've never run across a job that didn't require significant prior experience in the exact same job.

/e.g. 5 years each Java, C#, and JCL

If you're good at memorizing keywords and high level examples of how stuff works, you could probably lie your way through an interview that only required a year or two of experience. If you have zero mores or principles, you can then do like the guy who did that to us, and try to get somebody else to spend all of their time doing your job for you vicariously through them by asking them to show you the most ridiculously fundamental aspects of your job imaginable. After you've done this a few times (most places will take a little while to fire you if you're billing yourself as entry level), you'll eventually be legitimately competent to do entry level work.

I assumed this was how all entry level programming positions worked and the requirements on Dice were just sudoku puzzles to demonstrate your attention span is long enough to sit at the desk and read the for dummies book.

I've actually run across jobs that were actually legit "entry level" (i.e. did not require experience). I myself got started that way, and we've hired a couple of guys where I work knowing that they had zero prior experience. But generally I think people may stretch the truth about how much direct work experience they have, without really lying about what they actually know how to do. In the case above, we had a guy who clearly lied through his teeth about what he knew, which is surprised us since we had him provide task oriented "how would you do this" examples during the interview. Our best theory is that he just found some walkthroughs online and had a damn good memory.


I hear you, though my amusing WTF moments were with me trying to get the job. Responding to "Use the help command and available resources" when asked about a deep level cisco CLI, then asking "Well, do you know it off the top of your head?" and then rattling it off anyway when the interviewer does not is, while very validating, not the way to get that job. On the upside of that, I don't work for the real life version of Jen Barber.


Also, I cannot believe I'm going to defend HR in a general sense, but:

zabadu: Draskuul: I'm fine with a degree being useful to get your foot in the door. What pisses me off far more are companies that insist on degrees no matter the qualifications and experience. One company in town requires a four year degree for all IT staff, all the way down to the cable monkeys.

Even if you have a degree, if you see a company that has a hard line requiring a degree then I take that a sign to run away. That is a company letting HR do all their hiring and not the department staff that really knows what they are doing and what they need. You're bound to end up working in a college dorm environment with people who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

^^^
THIS

They just hired a girl here to be admin manager because she had a degree, yet has absolutely no experience in it. But she has a degree.


To be fair to the HR folks, when a company has to sift through hundreds, and sometimes thousands of applications, they need something to check against. Think of it like a database. You have a shiat ton of data, most of which is never going to be used, and a tiny, tiny % of it you need. Going over the whole thing line by line does not work. You narrow down with keywords.

What they ought to have done is narrow it down to a pool of eligibles then pass that small, manageable pool on to the dept. head and team to peer interview. That's the breakdown that too many companies screw up on.
 
2011-09-26 06:21:03 PM
15 years in IT, only a 2 year A.A.S degree and currently co-owner of a small but successful IT company about to open our second store front. Of course luck, timing, and social networking was a huge help.

Still, I agree that I'd sooner hire someone with 5 years real-word experience and a high-school diploma over any kid fresh out of college with a 4 year Bachelor's Degree in IT. Obviously each person is unique so you can get the drek of a person who only has real world experience, and you can find the rare college kid who knows not only real world applications for what they learned but also the theories behind it.

Overall, I'd more often than not toss the fresh out of college resumes in the round filing bin without glancing at them.
 
2011-09-26 06:22:44 PM
Bwahahahah, you submitted (and they approved) one of Yahoo's main page fake-articles-that-are-actually-advertising-for-profit-universities and someone approved it. At least the headline is hysterical... *cough*

/who's the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him
 
2011-09-26 06:23:07 PM
Speaking as someone who has a degree in computer science, I'll say that you don't really learn everything in college and you "can't" learn everything there as well. I've seen "hobbyist" programmers/developers who have way more knowledge than me or the people I graduated with, and the difference is that even though they didn't take a computer science degree, they read books, studied ideas, and actually experimented on "real life situations". Right now, I'm studying again as I try to continue on increasing my knowledge by actually getting things done and figuring out solutions for myself, and not going to some "degree mill". It's also the internet age now, so almost every subject is freely being discussed by other knowledgeable people who share what they know and there are lots of resources to get what you need, such as reading material and even video training.

The computer industry is really different and just because you have a computer science degree doesn't mean you already know everything. The degree is just a symbol that tells people "Hey, I was able to stay sober, work on my projects and submit them on time, and actually grasp what this is all about!". It really just says you can learn and you have the potential to succeed, but it still depends on you whether you'll let yourself be content with up to what you learned when you got your degree or continue to grow without any need of "academic guidance".

I guess you can compare the computer industry to farming, of all things. In farming, you have basic ideas such as planting seeds, watering them, and giving them enough sunlight so that they'll grow. Still, it doesn't end with that, you also have to deal with other problems like pests, weather/climate changes, and anything unexpected before you can harvest them. It's all about using what you know, solving new problems and adding the solution to your system to prevent your crops from suffering again. It's not like dealing with the law where there's a rule book that you just have to follow and read.
 
2011-09-26 06:23:07 PM

sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!


i42.tinypic.com

/hot like four
//i mean five
///i mean fire!
 
2011-09-26 06:25:39 PM

sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!


I beg to differ. There are a TON of TACOs (Took A Class Once) out there. A degree doesn't mean shiat to anyone but the HR monkey setting up interviews. And colleges teach about three years behind current world.

No Degree. Lead Forensic Analyst. If you know what the fark you're doing, paper means nothing.
 
2011-09-26 06:38:06 PM

orclover:
Go to college? im 40 farking years old with 2 kids and a mother that needs looking after. I dont trust technical schools thanks to my wife getting screwed over by one. If I could square the money away for college to my kids I would sell off whats left of this old corpse for parts an call it a finish.

/any suggestions?


Go to college. I'm 43, three kids, mean ex-wife, full time job, and classes start on Thursday. There's a community college in Austin with a program designed for working adults. Use it. Transfer into UT when you're done. You'll find it's probably cheaper and easier than you think.
 
2011-09-26 06:38:55 PM
Degree gets you past HR.

Experience gets you the interview.

Personality gets you the job.
 
2011-09-26 06:42:16 PM

I Mash Grains: I didn't have a degree and changed careers and started on the help desk about 7 years ago, well after the boom. I made a lousy 32k a year. Moved around for a bit, and eventually saw i needed a degree to move away from the help desk. Worked my way towards my bachelors at 34 years old, and then moved into IT Audit, last was making 75k plus bonuses.
Now I am going for an IT Manager job making a lot more than that.

So if you want to get anywhere above the help desk, you'll need a degree. You might be able to move into a network admin,l but will need to kiss the network admin's ass for years.


You couldn't be more wrong. IT Audit and gunning for IT manager? Thinks a degree means anything in IT? Your type makes the worst manager possible. You will probably will get the job too.
 
2011-09-26 06:42:28 PM

hej: Gaseous Anomaly: I don't understand this "career transition" concept. I've never run across a job that didn't require significant prior experience in the exact same job.

/e.g. 5 years each Java, C#, and JCL

If you're good at memorizing keywords and high level examples of how stuff works, you could probably lie your way through an interview that only required a year or two of experience. If you have zero mores or principles, you can then do like the guy who did that to us, and try to get somebody else to spend all of their time doing your job for you vicariously through them by asking them to show you the most ridiculously fundamental aspects of your job imaginable. After you've done this a few times (most places will take a little while to fire you if you're billing yourself as entry level), you'll eventually be legitimately competent to do entry level work.


I'm pretty much thinking this what we inherited with a recent aquisition of all of Verizon's rural business. We picked up two admins and when I granted one of them permissions to manage the file systems on Windows servers and users and groups in AD, she had a problem with getting denied. I started troubleshooting and asked her what account she was using to log into her workstation with. It was not with the account that I gave her the permissions. I told her to log in with the account that has the permissions or figure out how to use alternate credentials with the tools that we use. Her answer? I don't know how to log into a different domain.

{deadpan stare from me}

Thinks to self: Seriously, this is why we fail. We have farking admins that don't know basic shiat that even a helpdesk jockey knows.

{well, except the helpdesk jockeys we got from them too.}



"Ok, I think {insert manager's names} can help you." was my answer.

I'm not going to teach you the basics. I love to teach and I jump at the opportunity all the time. But when I do, it is by using the basic blocks that you should already have. If you tell me that this user can't do X, I might tell you to bring up the native security and look for Y and Z and make sure they are set to "Allow" and not "Deny. I'm NOT going to tell you to, right-click on this and right-click that, move your mouse to here, yada yada yada. I don't have the time.

/or patience
 
2011-09-26 06:42:32 PM
It really boils down to one thing: Pick the profession in something you're willing to go above and beyond in. Otherwise, you'll never get the experience, knowledge, and contacts necessary to do anything other than "average", if you're lucky.
 
2011-09-26 06:47:00 PM

Bobo_Spiewack: I beg to differ. There are a TON of TACOs (Took A Class Once) out there. A degree doesn't mean shiat to anyone but the HR monkey setting up interviews. And colleges teach about three years behind current world.


Doesn't matter. If you can't get past the HR monkey, you'll be unemployed.

When there's a lot of demand for jobs, then you can get a job without a degree. That's why so many people here are talking about getting a job 15 years ago. When the economy is bad and jobs are scarce, all you get is a handful of shiat flung at you by the HR monkey.

Dunno how far an associate's degree in IT will get you. Logically, it should be as good as a BS: you get the same amount of on topic coursework, usually more modern than a BS. All you don't get are the 'well rounded' history, literature, and other courses. Not sure how the monkeys see it though.
 
2011-09-26 06:48:19 PM

Draskuul: I'd take the person who spent their time with computing as a hobby over someone who just got a degree in it as a career choice any day.


There aren't that many hobbyists who actually do anything now.

1. Rip DVDs
2. Run a cleaning tool on an infected machine
3. Defrag (not as impressive to goobers ever since the GUI for it went away)
3. Photoshop pictures of cats

Nobody does HTML anymore. Nobody knows what a bat does. Nobody deletes io.sys or config.sys or ntldr on purpose just to see what would happen and then go on to figure out how to fix it. Nobody tries to see how many system settings they can change directly through regedit without using a control panel applet. Or use telnet to send an email.
 
2011-09-26 06:48:40 PM

Benjimin_Dover: Computer Support Specialist - Annual Average Earning Potential: $49,930*

#1. The article isn't an article, it's a commercial ad for certificate mills.
#2. The one fact above tells me the rest is suspect. I'm in IT, and while it may be plausible for somebody dropping workstations on desks to be making that salary in a high cost of living area, it definately ain't going to be the average.


The CIO and CTO are - theoretically - in IT, and those salaries + the billing rates (not the pay rates) for the EMC/HP/IBM/COGNOS/... contractors all push up on that 'average.'
 
2011-09-26 06:50:17 PM

Magnanimous_J: Now my English degree, that was a good investment.

/Takes drag of Evan WIlliams
//Puts one bullet in revolver
///Spin
////Click
//Better luck tomorrow.


WIth you. Have 15+ years management experience but decided I was sick of being just a cog in the capitalist machine. So now I have an MA in teaching writing and work roughly 45 hours a week if you include prep, grading, and conferences for four college writing classes....and I make less than 20k. With zero benefits. And that's assuming I can get hired to teach a full load every fall, spring, and summer.

/What I get for wanting to make a difference.
 
2011-09-26 06:50:58 PM
Meh, I say spend the time and effort finishing your bachelors in a field which is in demand. You can find fulfilment on your weekends and vacations using your paycheck.
 
2011-09-26 06:51:22 PM
I think the success of this sort of thing is largely dependent on your age.

Many places won't give you nearly the same chance to start over if you're already grey-haired and have previously enjoyed a significant career -- "why would you want to start as a junior accountant after being a vice-president in a semiconductor company?", etc.

Unfortunately, ageism is one of the most prevalent forms of hiring discrimination. It works both ways of course -- don't hire an old guy for a junior position, don't hire a young guy for a senior position. It usually makes sense, as there is the assumption you've spent your life in the one industry; therefore age is proportional to experience. But there is usually a lot of skepticism when some old person seeks an entry level job.

If you're forced to switch careers, hopefully it happens after about only 10 years rather than 20.

// sort of like how I want any zombie/alien invasion to happen while I'm still sufficiently able-bodied to fight back.
 
2011-09-26 06:53:16 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Career Change Option #5: Teacher

Yeah, you could transition to a career that people are transitioning out of en masse to escape conservative butchering of pay and benefits. That's an idea.


No. No, you really can't. Every state I know of will NOT provide teaching certification, nor hire you for any educational post, without a bachelor's degree. And most require additional certification and additional education to advance past anything beyond teacher's assistant. You can't even get a job as a substitute without the proper credentials anymore. The perfect storm of schools trapped by No Child Left Behind preventing qualified laypeople from just stepping into teaching, and unions that forgot the reason why teachers work in the first place in favor of covering their collective asses.

AND the pay sucks. You're absolutely right about that.
 
2011-09-26 06:55:13 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Career Change Option #5: Teacher

Yeah, you could transition to a career that people are transitioning out of en masse to escape conservative butchering of pay and benefits. That's an idea.


Not to mention your odds of transitioning into a private sector gig if your degree was in education are essentially dick. Maybe you can get into sales but lord knows if you go low enough on that totem pole all you need is a pulse.
 
2011-09-26 06:56:59 PM

letrole:
There aren't that many hobbyists who actually do anything now.

Nobody does HTML anymore. Nobody knows what a bat does. Nobody deletes io.sys or config.sys or ntldr on purpose just to see what would happen and then go on to figure out how to fix it. Nobody tries to see how many system settings they can change directly through regedit without using a control panel applet. Or use telnet to send an email.


Unfortunately I'm sure you're right these days. I actually wrote *and sold* software at 13 (written in Quickbasic and x86 assembly). I spent my summers in high school working for my school district teaching teachers how to use email and browse the web (in the early-mid 90's before even 10% of the population knew what the internet was--hell I was still just dialing into BBSes at that point at home).
 
2011-09-26 06:58:22 PM

cgraves67: You may be able to get a job teaching without a bachelors degree in education if the state you live in has lax standards or you have an existing degree and experience in the subject you would be teaching.


...like Pennsylvania

/used to live there
 
2011-09-26 06:58:23 PM
I really wish I knew how you guys are getting your feet into the IT field without a degree or experience because I sure as hell can't find any internships (or even a PT job) that doesn't require either one.
 
2011-09-26 06:59:00 PM

jst3p:
You couldn't be more wrong. IT Audit and gunning for IT manager? Thinks a degree means anything in IT? Your type makes the worst manager possible. You will probably will get the job too.


You obviously know nothing of IT controls, risk assessments, or Sarbanes Oxley. As an IT Auditor I know the business side as well as the IT world. Any observation I make to the CIO is taken as a means to improve their system controls. I didn't say I would only hire people with degrees, but if you want to be the one doing the hiring these days, you will need a degree. Not my rule, but HR's.

And yes, I will get the job because I look at the big picture.
 
2011-09-26 06:59:10 PM

hej: Also, I'm highly skeptical of this $50k/year "earning potential" for doing PC tech support.


I did it. No professional experience (like dude above, I consider myself an autodidact). The trick was getting in with a company (already my employer). I had been in sales for this company for several years (a regional market for a wireless carrier) and since I was 'good with computers' (and networking) I eventually became the go-to guy for problems when the corporate IT group was slow to respond to stuff. Then we started opening a shiat-ton of stores in this part of the state and they needed someone local to administrate the machines and networks full-time. They started paying me $54k out the gate for that.

Now I'm training my replacement, because I've moved up to another position - I'm now purchasing, distributing, and controlling pricing for all our products, which is actually a much, much harder job, and a more dangerous one, because I'm playing around with millions of dollars every day (I admit the fear makes it a little fun). The person I replaced was canned for making a decision that cost the company over $100,000 (one of several such mistakes he made). And this guy had a degree and experience in the field. Like the IT thing, it's a job I'm having to teach myself on the spot. And that's why I was selected for the position - my predecessor was canned rather immediately, I had proven that I was intelligent and resourceful enough to change gears on the fly. I volunteered to pull double-duty and work both positions until we could find a replacement, and managed to kick enough ass to prove that I could be that replacement. I realize that I'm just straight-up bragging at this point, but when I took over, our regional market was dead worst in inventory rankings out of 25 markets nationwide (meaning, unsold inventory sitting on shelves for 60+ days, weak sales due to poor stocking, etc). After six months, we're the third best out of 25 and I intend to put us at #1 by year's end. I've already been promised another fat raise in the next fiscal quarter due to the fact that I've saved the company over a half million dollars since I took over.

I almost didn't graduate high school on time. I slept or doodled through half my classes and had to take night classes in order to graduate with my classmates and avoid repeating my senior year. I also dropped out of college after half a semester. I really resented schooling because I never learned shiat - and I loved to learn. I was/am a voracious reader, and picking up a book of my choosing and reading about something was far more rewarding than being stuck to a rigid curriculum in the hands of a bored teacher. Once I was faced with real-world challenges, I learned how to deal with them on the spot. I place very little importance on my education and frankly consider everything after elementary school a colossal waste of time.

I suppose what I'm trying to say here is that autodidacts rule. Your ability to learn new things should be held in MUCH higher esteem than what's on your resume. If I had to write a resume or take an interview for any position today, the personal trait I would emphasize the most is the ability to learn, and make sensible decisions.
 
2011-09-26 07:01:29 PM

eggrolls: Every state I know of will NOT provide teaching certification, nor hire you for any educational post, without a bachelor's degree.


The American state of Tennessee will evaluate your experience for non-academic fields such as automobile repair or building trades. You get a teaching certificate if there's an immediate post to fill at a state vocational school.

And then you can qualify for almost any teaching position in the state. Perhaps not in the top running, but certainly qualified to apply.
 
Pav
2011-09-26 07:01:50 PM
What if I want to transition out of Network administration? I'm waking up at 11pm tonight to do another freaking overnight maintenance! 10 years of this shiat, stick a fork in me. Don't get me started about the freaking direct connect in conjunction with on call.
 
2011-09-26 07:03:48 PM

eggrolls: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Career Change Option #5: Teacher

Yeah, you could transition to a career that people are transitioning out of en masse to escape conservative butchering of pay and benefits. That's an idea.

No. No, you really can't. Every state I know of will NOT provide teaching certification, nor hire you for any educational post, without a bachelor's degree. And most require additional certification and additional education to advance past anything beyond teacher's assistant. You can't even get a job as a substitute without the proper credentials anymore. The perfect storm of schools trapped by No Child Left Behind preventing qualified laypeople from just stepping into teaching, and unions that forgot the reason why teachers work in the first place in favor of covering their collective asses.

AND the pay sucks. You're absolutely right about that.


My brother got screwed by that a few years back. He did so well as a sub he was hired on full time. He's an excellent teacher but has no teaching degree. The principle loved him but she had to drop him because of policy from higher up. Now he can't even sub any more. It's awesome.
 
2011-09-26 07:04:57 PM

KierzanDax:

Paralegal:
Do you want to work long hours researching arcane legal precedents without that cumbersome money? Are you ready to "take one for the team" and accept blame when the lawyer fails? Do you like watching everyone else get a bonus while you go home and eat tuna from a can? This job is for you!



The paralegals don't do actual research- that's what first year associates are for. Paralegals fill out standard court forms and help with sorting through discovery materials. We try to be nice to them. But yes, the poor farkers do put up with an awful lot of attorney bullshiat for relatively little pay.

/On behalf of all decent lawyers, I apologize to all of the competent paralegals.
//incompetent paralegals can go to hell, you lazy, stupid, freaks.
 
2011-09-26 07:07:38 PM

jst3p: Annual Average Earning Potential: $29,760*

Wow! Sign me up!

You don't need a degree to be a Network admin, you need experience. The degree might get you your first entry level phone job but I know a lot of people who got their foot in the door without one.

The trick is you have to be good.


And you have to be willing to work cheap, and take a bunch of shiat for a few years. Never underestimate the power of, "I have no experience, I'm a quick learner, and I work cheap." Before going consultant full time, it was "fun" dealing with applicants who say, "I have a certificate from Degree Mill Institute, a bunch of certifications and I expect to make $75k RIGHT THE FARK NOW even though I have never logged into a siss coh rooter. What you mean u will only give me $27k starting out? I HAVE CERTIFICATE!"

Real IT Professionals get certifications because their bosses want them to get certifications, often for business reasons. It's also a big scam for partnering with various vendors. Oh, want your organization to be BIGCORP Certified Partner? Then you need to have someone certified in these 19 different products with 27 different certifications that cost $1500 each (which expire after 12 to 36 months) either on staff or affiliated with your company. One consultant I know makes over half his income from those certification "affiliations".
 
2011-09-26 07:09:44 PM
Teachers are often revered as some of the most important working professionals

By who? No reverence thus far. Plenty of vitriol. The majority of folks barely know what teachers do, or rather what quality teachers do.
 
2011-09-26 07:11:58 PM

Pav: What if I want to transition out of Network administration? I'm waking up at 11pm tonight to do another freaking overnight maintenance! 10 years of this shiat, stick a fork in me. Don't get me started about the freaking direct connect in conjunction with on call.


Well, I did it by stretching out into more tasks related to jobs that were more '9 to 5' positions. By doing that I became known to a vendor my company used. After my company was bought out and about to have our offices in my state closed down, that vendor made me an offer. That effectively moved me up the food chain a bit. My particular job still entails some outside-hours work, but not as bad as before.

The other route is to try to work your way into management. At my old job that was really the only route for me to go, but was unlikely to ever happen (I reported directly to a VP, and was too young to have ever been entertained as a serious replacement if he had retired).
 
2011-09-26 07:12:10 PM

trickygringuito:
My brother got screwed by that a few years back. He did so well as a sub he was hired on full time. He's an excellent teacher but has no teaching degree. The principle loved him but she had to drop him because of policy from higher up. Now he can't even sub any more. It's awesome.


I got better than that. My father was a public school teacher. By the time NCLB came around, he was nearing 30 years in. Top of the pay scale, continuing ed certs up the yin yang.
The need for that certification comes around. The principal says "You have to be at the training room this afternoon for the certification class."
He says, "Why, do you want me to teach it?"
As soon as he was done driving the principal crazy, he reported to the training room-where some 20something wet-behind-the-balls "instructor" was setting up to teach the class. More comedy ensued.

In the end, he ended off retiring over NCLB.
 
2011-09-26 07:13:29 PM

GreenSun:
I guess you can compare the computer industry to farming, of all things. In farming, you have basic ideas such as planting seeds, watering them, and giving them enough sunlight so that they'll grow. Still, it doesn't end with that, you also have to deal with other problems like pests, weather/climate changes, and anything unexpected before you can harvest them. It's all about using what you know, solving new problems and adding the solution to your system to prevent your crops from suffering again. It's not like dealing with the law where there's a rule book that you just have to follow and read.


As far as analogies go, that's one of the better ones I've heard lately. Kudos.
 
2011-09-26 07:15:19 PM

Bigglesworth III: I really wish I knew how you guys are getting your feet into the IT field without a degree or experience because I sure as hell can't find any internships (or even a PT job) that doesn't require either one.


All of the IT organizations I've known have hired entry level IT folks without a degree, and even more senior technicians. The more senior candidates needed a bunch of experience, but the junior roles just needed to take direction and have some solid basic knowledge.

Of course, all of these organizations had unofficial caps on how high a person could come up through the ranks without a degree.
 
2011-09-26 07:15:23 PM
Pay for being a teacher is really hit or miss, depending on where you teach. Where I live, when the current contract expires, starting pay for a teacher (21 year old fresh out of college) will be $59,800. This district generally gets a 3 or 4% raise every year (which means you will be making about $100,000 before you retire). All that plus a pension and great medical benefits too, for only 180-190 days per year, which is about 80 to 90 days less then the rest of us.

If teaching is what you want to do, it's really a pretty decent gig these days. I mean 60k at 21 years old? That's really pretty good money for working 75% of a year. That would be 80k to most other year round professionals on salary.
 
2011-09-26 07:18:49 PM
My profession requires a Bachelor's Degree. FARK: I do not have a Bachelor's Degree...


Discuss.
 
2011-09-26 07:23:34 PM

sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!


I'm quite successful in IT and I don't have a degree.
 
2011-09-26 07:25:08 PM

Bigglesworth III: I really wish I knew how you guys are getting your feet into the IT field without a degree or experience because I sure as hell can't find any internships (or even a PT job) that doesn't require either one.


Allow me... Link (new window)
 
2011-09-26 07:25:37 PM
Samwise Gamgee:

I'm unsurprised to be reading from other people going the same route I did here in Fark.

<csb>

I hated high school with a passion. Scheduling prevented me from taking trig but I promised the AP calc teacher the next year I'd learn trig over the summer to take his class. I did, and passed the AP. I almost didn't graduate because I couldn't bring myself to do idiotic english assignments (my english major mother was not amused). I had to take a night class where all they did was give me grammar worksheets. I blew through all of them in 3 weeks. They gave me credit and told me to not worry about coming back.

I quit the higher education scam after one semester at a university and just jumped into front line PC support. 12 years later and I'm making 6 figures doing vendor support for major corporations. Still no degree, just the certifications I learned myself while on the job.

Don't jump onto sammyk too hard, he's definitely right about it never ending. Everyone knows how the computer world evolves. If you aren't motivated to continue educating yourself, you'll fall behind. I'm still going for more certs, and renewing the old ones that are still relevant. Although I never did get my A+ or Network+...

</csb>
 
2011-09-26 07:25:57 PM
List fails without gun repair.

/is it just me, or did that always sound a little out of place on those "Do you want to make more money? Sure, we all do!" commercials?
 
2011-09-26 07:28:18 PM
Evil Twin Skippy: I'm an autodidact.

KIIIIIINKY!

/hedleylamarr.jpg
 
2011-09-26 07:29:02 PM

I Mash Grains:
So if you want to get anywhere above the help desk, you'll need a degree.


False.
 
2011-09-26 07:30:56 PM
Hey it's an autodidact party!
 
2011-09-26 07:33:47 PM
I do computer support, make well over 50k a year, no degree, barely a HS diploma... but 30 years experience, 10 as a contractor for the military in the late 80's through 90's installing computers, running network cables, and setting up servers. 5 years at Dell, had 20 applicants total for the job, 19 had degrees right out of college, I was the only one without a degree, but I had experience, they hired me on the spot and said they were thankful for someone without a degree and had experience.
 
2011-09-26 07:34:13 PM

ShowhermyO-face: Evil Twin Skippy: I'm an autodidact.

KIIIIIINKY!

/hedleylamarr.jpg


That's Hedy!
 
2011-09-26 07:38:11 PM

debug: Where I live, when the current contract expires, starting pay for a teacher (21 year old fresh out of college) will be $59,800. This district generally gets a 3 or 4% raise every year (which means you will be making about $100,000 before you retire).


Where is this? This is 20+ years into teaching for some districts before the rampant pay freezes. My district has not received a pay raise in 4 years.
 
2011-09-26 07:38:18 PM

ArmanTanzarian: Bigglesworth III: I really wish I knew how you guys are getting your feet into the IT field without a degree or experience because I sure as hell can't find any internships (or even a PT job) that doesn't require either one.

Allow me... Link (new window)


That actually helped. I'm going to read up on that. Thanks!
 
2011-09-26 07:41:07 PM
FTFA - Career Change Option #2: Paralegal
Are you interested in a law career, but want to avoid the four-year bachelor's degree and three years in law school? Good news...


Forget paralegal, go for lawyer! Last I knew all that was required to be a lawyer in CA was to pass the BAR (high school diploma may or may not have been required). Now granted most people would need 5-7 years of education to pass the BAR but hey, details right?
 
2011-09-26 07:44:18 PM
Word of the day: Autodidact

Fark has been great for adding cool new words to my vocabulary.

/i cant be the only one who never heard the word before
//you are
///liar
 
2011-09-26 07:45:02 PM
sammyk 2011-09-26 05:24:24 PM Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT! FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!
=========================================================

No, you won't. And based on my experience (which is 16 solid months of 'I don't give a shiat that you have a degree, I want experience before I'll hire you')... CS degrees are the most worthless piece of shiat ever invented.

$50000 flushed down the toilet.

Study and get into computers yourself and somehow find work on your own to get experience, and you're in. A degree means shiat.

/Not to mention, almost every single position specifically says 'degree in computer science OR relevant experience'.
 
2011-09-26 07:45:45 PM

Draskuul: I'm fine with a degree being useful to get your foot in the door. What pisses me off far more are companies that insist on degrees no matter the qualifications and experience. One company in town requires a four year degree for all IT staff, all the way down to the cable monkeys.

Even if you have a degree, if you see a company that has a hard line requiring a degree then I take that a sign to run away. That is a company letting HR do all their hiring and not the department staff that really knows what they are doing and what they need. You're bound to end up working in a college dorm environment with people who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.


Wise words - may I quote you on that?

/seriously - I'm the guy who tells the kids to become plumbers and auto mechanics
 
2011-09-26 07:47:40 PM

letrole: eggrolls: Every state I know of will NOT provide teaching certification, nor hire you for any educational post, without a bachelor's degree.

The American state of Tennessee will evaluate your experience for non-academic fields such as automobile repair or building trades. You get a teaching certificate if there's an immediate post to fill at a state vocational school.

And then you can qualify for almost any teaching position in the state. Perhaps not in the top running, but certainly qualified to apply.


Not really. I googled the TN.GOV's dept of Ed website re: qualifications for a teaching certificate. The only exceptioned paths to getting teaching certification without a college degree are:

The Health Science educator must document three years of full-time successful employment within the past five years in a state approved health care facility: (ex: hospital, nursing home, rehab center, dental or medical office, home health, day surgery center etc.). He/she must also have an associate or higher degree and hold current licensure or certification in an allied health occupation, or current licensure as a registered nurse in Tennessee.

The Trade and Industry educator must document a minimum of five years of appropriate and current work experience during the past eight years in the field for which application is made. He/she must also be a high school graduate or the equivalent as determined by the General Education Development (GED) test.

The Cosmetology educator must also hold current licensure to instruct in Tennessee as issued by the respective state licensing board in addition to the other requirements for Trade and Industry educators.


To sum up:

You can teach health if you have an AA in a related field AND three years related experience, or are an RN.
You can teach shop with a five year resume.
Cosmetology with a 'license to instruct', which is evidently different from a state teaching certificate.

These are the ONLY exceptions the site gives. You still need a BA to teach everything else. And even a PhD wouldn't guarantee you a certificate, either. Not a lot of opportunity there.
 
2011-09-26 07:51:58 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: I don't understand this "career transition" concept. I've never run across a job that didn't require significant prior experience in the exact same job.

/e.g. 5 years each Java, C#, and JCL


This is about getting the unemployed to run up school debt getting some certificate or other, and thereby get the economy moving again.
 
2011-09-26 07:52:43 PM
letrole:Or use telnet to send an email.

HELO!
 
2011-09-26 07:55:23 PM
50k doing tech support?

That's easy. Get a job doing PC tech support at the state government level. Do not screw it up. Work there for 20+ years.

Guarantee you'd be at $50k after 20 years.

/well now, maybe not so much, but from 1990-2010 no problemo. Pretty sure I work with a few of them.
 
2011-09-26 07:56:56 PM
The world needs ditch diggers, too.
 
2011-09-26 07:58:45 PM
13 years in college baby!

Best way to spend your late teens to early 30s...

Protip: Graduate school for engineering is not only free, they actually pay you.
 
2011-09-26 07:58:58 PM
Over 100 posts and no one even found the subliminal message embedded in that webpage.

It says: "Buy a lottery ticket".
 
2011-09-26 07:59:11 PM

jst3p: The trick is you have to be good.


Yep, that's the key in computing. My last company had guys who started out answering phones or interning in the NOC who made it into development and became senior developers in less than five years. One of them went straight from high school into the Army (where he didn't learn a single thing about computers -- nobody does) and never took a single college course. He was a superstar. Nobody cares what kind of degree you have. However, if you get into development and want to keep advancing, you'll end up teaching yourself most of the undergraduate CS curriculum and more, so guys who drop out of school thinking "hurrrrrrrrr I hate this egghead crap, nobody needs to know this crap" don't do any better in the "real world" than they did in school.
 
2011-09-26 08:02:23 PM

cgraves67: You may be able to get a job teaching without a bachelors degree in education if the state you live in has lax standards or you have an existing degree and experience in the subject you would be teaching.


Allowing the education degree was actually a relaxing of standards. You used to need a subject degree to teach secondary (English, Math, etc) and a generally relevant academic degree to teach primary. The Ed degree was introduced as an easier alternative at the cost of there not being much beyond teaching at a primary/secondary level in hopes of getting more teachers to join up and stick around. More recently a lot of states have relaxed standards even further to allow teaching of secondary subjects that you didn't really major in, or rather the definition of "relevant major" keeps getting pushed wider and wider.

Same general idea, the system needs teachers and there aren't a lot of people that want to do it long-term. And convincing more people to give it a go seemed like a better idea than reforming the conditions in the teaching environment that chase folks off.
 
2011-09-26 08:04:21 PM

Vangor: debug: Where I live, when the current contract expires, starting pay for a teacher (21 year old fresh out of college) will be $59,800. This district generally gets a 3 or 4% raise every year (which means you will be making about $100,000 before you retire).

Where is this? This is 20+ years into teaching for some districts before the rampant pay freezes. My district has not received a pay raise in 4 years.


Camp Hill School District in PA. Of course they also have one of the highest property tax rates in the state and despite the cutting of funds, they choose to cut staff and programs rather then take a salary freeze this year. I think they will get 4.4% salary increase.
 
2011-09-26 08:06:51 PM
Autodidact is helpful, but talent is key. I've managed to remain gainfully employed in my industry for almost 20 years. I also managed to skip the typical lower rungs of my industry's ladder.

Here's how!:

1) LUCK

2) Education. Learned meself the PC shiat. Not a genius, not a total nerd, can't code (too impatient), Mom bought me an 8088 XT in summer of '89, and I never looked back. I am the Company Nerd for a company of around 80 employees in eight locations around KY. Its the Guru Theory: You know a thing or two about something that everyone else is terrified of = YOU'RE A GURU!! I kinda hate its like that, but its kept me employed. I have like 9 hours of college credit, a GED, and my ACT in April-89 was a 26, 32 on science component. Was later re-calced to a 28 after they changed the test. So, I claim 28 :-)

3) MORE LUCK. A good friend of mine followed a more traditional route into our industry, he got me my first interview, and in almost 20 years, I have worked for all of TWO employers in my field. Which leads to the last thing:

4) TALENT. I has it. I have a talent for learning by doing, This is as much luck as anything, but recognizing what you're good at helps you put it to use.

I'm not rich, but I am one of a very few from my HS days that is doing exactly what he always said he would. Those cats all got fancy degrees, and not a one of them is using their ol' paper in their current life. One guy got a degree in Urban Planning or some such. He sells toilets.

COLLEGE IS A JOKE
 
2011-09-26 08:07:10 PM

hej: Also, I'm highly skeptical of this $50k/year "earning potential" for doing PC tech support.


there are lots of folks making over $50K doing desktop support at my company. Starting pay is about $36K but can easily cross 50K in 5 or 6 yrs with promotions, raises etc and I live in the midwest..
 
2011-09-26 08:07:35 PM

eggrolls: You can teach health if you have an AA in a related field AND three years related experience, or are an RN.
You can teach shop with a five year resume.
Cosmetology with a 'license to instruct', which is evidently different from a state teaching certificate.

These are the ONLY exceptions the site gives. You still need a BA to teach everything else. And even a PhD wouldn't guarantee you a certificate, either. Not a lot of opportunity there.




Isn't the BA only needed to get a certificate? I know a fellow who did this route. He started out teaching masonry at a low security prison and went to a high school two years later teaching health and pe.
 
2011-09-26 08:11:48 PM
I would say without any experience, every single one of those jobs not only require a degree, but probably several years more of post-graduate education to even get your resume looked at.

Example: teacher. In the state of CT its 7 years of education. A masters degree + 1 year for a MA in education. There is no "fall back on being a teacher". I know several bright people in their late 20s subbing and tutoring while chasing after these coveted positions.

Paralegal: Not only does this require a degree, it likely requires a law degree... to interview for the receptionist, and then work your way up to Paralegal.

Accountant: Dont make me laugh.

I suppose some of the tech positions you can still be favorably viewed for having the right experience, but the question then becomes how do you get the right experience?

Its irritating so often to read these articles and hear all the cool story bro's from boomers and Gen X's who taught themselves the skills and worked there way up. Not only does that get your resume thrown in trash before the interview even begins these days, but an automated program scanning resumes would remove it before the uninterested HR person even looks at it. Nobody cares what you did in the 1990s anymore. It has no relevant bearing on todays world.

Sorry to say this.. but, you're old.

/and I do have a pretty awesome job
 
2011-09-26 08:13:48 PM

sammyk:

I still worry what would happen if I ever needed to change jobs, but in the end I don't feel like dropping $50k on a piece of paper.

Been at it for 20. Your over the hump. If you get in career slump dump 4k into the latest vmware cert or whatever. A degree would be pointless for you. I don't have one either. I go with experience in interviews.


Warning! My CSB!
I couldn't agree more. I have always made more than my friends and family that have college degrees. I've had multiple MS Cert's for the past 15+ years (I'm 40 now). After high school, in 1991, they were racking up $40k in debt while I took my first "real job" at $29k a year with a crazy benefits package at 19 yrs old. Now most of them make about $60-$80K a year with a run of the mill benefits package. I'm over the six figure mark with a benefits package that pays damn near everything, six weeks vacation, 32 paid holidays, gym membership, massages every month, martial arts, hydrotherapy, yoga classes, weight loss clinics, wellness classes (whatever the hell that is), etc, etc, etc. $45k in surgery for a family member cost me a total of $40.00 in co-pay, and a host of other things for myself and all family members.

I've received a raise five times in the last seven years while most of my friends and family members have been laid off or been grateful they weren't (They tell me this while sitting in my eight person hot tub, biatching about bills and their job, and a hand full of them telling me how important a college education is....*insert facepalm here*..... ). I have more in my savings account than most of them have in their retirement accounts. My automated income/side jobs pull in more annually than some of them have in savings and retirement combined. I'm proud of what I have done and accomplished, especially without college degree.

Well, there's my csb, now I'm off to Tia Chi class, an hour massage, half hour in my hot tub then chill with my wife for the rest of the night :) Life is good. Peace out!

/Go Bruins!
 
2011-09-26 08:14:38 PM

23FPB23: Autodidact is helpful, but talent is key. I've managed to remain gainfully employed in my industry for almost 20 years. I also managed to skip the typical lower rungs of my industry's ladder.

Here's how!:

1) LUCK

2) Education. Learned meself the PC shiat. Not a genius, not a total nerd, can't code (too impatient), Mom bought me an 8088 XT in summer of '89, and I never looked back. I am the Company Nerd for a company of around 80 employees in eight locations around KY. Its the Guru Theory: You know a thing or two about something that everyone else is terrified of = YOU'RE A GURU!! I kinda hate its like that, but its kept me employed. I have like 9 hours of college credit, a GED, and my ACT in April-89 was a 26, 32 on science component. Was later re-calced to a 28 after they changed the test. So, I claim 28 :-)

3) MORE LUCK. A good friend of mine followed a more traditional route into our industry, he got me my first interview, and in almost 20 years, I have worked for all of TWO employers in my field. Which leads to the last thing:

4) TALENT. I has it. I have a talent for learning by doing, This is as much luck as anything, but recognizing what you're good at helps you put it to use.

I'm not rich, but I am one of a very few from my HS days that is doing exactly what he always said he would. Those cats all got fancy degrees, and not a one of them is using their ol' paper in their current life. One guy got a degree in Urban Planning or some such. He sells toilets.

COLLEGE IS A JOKE


You sound douchey.
 
2011-09-26 08:16:16 PM

Shazam999: The problem with IT degrees is that other than the core concepts, everything you learn becomes obsolete in about four years. Except SQL.


THIS.

I learned Linux by wiping my hard drive, installing it, and then living in it day in and out. Google taught me how to compile from source. Lucked into a job that gave me Unix exposure and the rest is history. I've been doing this 15 years now and I'm the lead unix admin at my company.

I learn fast and I'm good with Google.These two things, plus a good ability to communicate with other teams has landed me every job I've had.
 
2011-09-26 08:17:24 PM
Damn. I was hoping this would tell me how to switch from my $100K job to a $250K job.

What's up with all you farkers being IT nerds? It's like you guys were born in the Fark servers.
 
2011-09-26 08:17:53 PM
Medical assistant?

REALLY?

Why don't you just sign up to be a minimum wage worker for the rest of your life. A medical assistant in a Doctors office does about the same work as a CNA in a nursing home.

/Hell. You can get your LPN or EMT-I for the same price as a Medical Assistant program, do and make much more, and have a lot more fun.
 
2011-09-26 08:18:47 PM
I'm currently getting my degree in computer science and have about 2.5 more years to go. This thread has made it clear that I need to rack up experience on my way out but what should I be doing or looking for? A lot of the internships that I'm looking up require a hell of a lot more than what I currently know (my skill base isn't much at the moment).

Current skill level: basic C++ and Java, can assemble and disassemble hardware, and I'll assume that knowing Calculus I probably doesn't mean shiat.
 
2011-09-26 08:19:33 PM
(defun c:thread ()
(princ "you guys rock")
);fun

/I'll go play in the corner now with my dead language.
 
2011-09-26 08:22:10 PM
I bypassed all that 'requirements' stuff on the IT by listing my hobbies translated into experience, then eventually I've accidentally
acquired enough real-world experience that I'm qualified for the job I do. Then rise to surf on the crest of my incompetence versus the competence of the engineers who plan service parts.
 
2011-09-26 08:23:20 PM

dionysusaur: Benjimin_Dover: Computer Support Specialist - Annual Average Earning Potential: $49,930*

#1. The article isn't an article, it's a commercial ad for certificate mills.
#2. The one fact above tells me the rest is suspect. I'm in IT, and while it may be plausible for somebody dropping workstations on desks to be making that salary in a high cost of living area, it definately ain't going to be the average.

The CIO and CTO are - theoretically - in IT, and those salaries + the billing rates (not the pay rates) for the EMC/HP/IBM/COGNOS/... contractors all push up on that 'average.'


I think that is where they got the number, but the description really is talking about the bottom of the group. Standard mixing things up to make it look good and why it is suspect.
 
2011-09-26 08:23:32 PM

obzerver: sammyk:

I still worry what would happen if I ever needed to change jobs, but in the end I don't feel like dropping $50k on a piece of paper.

Been at it for 20. Your over the hump. If you get in career slump dump 4k into the latest vmware cert or whatever. A degree would be pointless for you. I don't have one either. I go with experience in interviews.

Warning! My CSB!
I couldn't agree more. I have always made more than my friends and family that have college degrees. I've had multiple MS Cert's for the past 15+ years (I'm 40 now). After high school, in 1991, they were racking up $40k in debt while I took my first "real job" at $29k a year with a crazy benefits package at 19 yrs old. Now most of them make about $60-$80K a year with a run of the mill benefits package. I'm over the six figure mark with a benefits package that pays damn near everything, six weeks vacation, 32 paid holidays, gym membership, massages every month, martial arts, hydrotherapy, yoga classes, weight loss clinics, wellness classes (whatever the hell that is), etc, etc, etc. $45k in surgery for a family member cost me a total of $40.00 in co-pay, and a host of other things for myself and all family members.

I've received a raise five times in the last seven years while most of my friends and family members have been laid off or been grateful they weren't (They tell me this while sitting in my eight person hot tub, biatching about bills and their job, and a hand full of them telling me how important a college education is....*insert facepalm here*..... ). I have more in my savings account than most of them have in their retirement accounts. My automated income/side jobs pull in more annually than some of them have in savings and retirement combined. I'm proud of what I have done and accomplished, especially without college degree.

Well, there's my csb, now I'm off to Tia Chi class, an hour massage, half hour in my hot tub then chill with my wife for the rest of the night :) Life is good. Peace out!

/Go Bruins!


You sound like you have to be at the gym in 26 mins....
 
2011-09-26 08:25:39 PM

sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!


Been in IT for close to 20 years no, no degree. My employee's have degrees, I have not.
 
2011-09-26 08:26:29 PM
I could not put food on my family with any of those salaries.
 
2011-09-26 08:27:21 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: I don't understand this "career transition" concept. I've never run across a job that didn't require significant prior experience in the exact same job.

/e.g. 5 years each Java, C#, and JCL


I have transitioned from being a doing satellite systems deployment and support1 to server administration. Took some training, and had to start lower in the food chain for that first gig, but it wasn't too bad. Having a technical degree didn't hurt, but the biggest thing I had going for me was that we had enough cushion in cash flow that I could take a pay cut without completely mucking up our standard of living.

Now I'm transitioning into datacenter compute, network, and storage design and implementation. Fortunately, my company is paying for most of the training and giving me great hands-on OJT to go with it.

1 (the link-budgeting, IP-multicast network design and management kind, not the DirecTV-installer kind)

jst3p:

The trick is you have to be good.

Fortunately, I had this going for me, too.
 
2011-09-26 08:30:36 PM

LoveRBS: Damn. I was hoping this would tell me how to switch from my $100K job to a $250K job.

What's up with all you farkers being IT nerds? It's like you guys were born in the Fark servers.


I wasn't born in one, though I was cloned from one. Unfortunately, I think I was the third or fourth copy of a copy.

www.lovehatesociety.com
 
2011-09-26 08:32:37 PM
Its funny when I come on fark I read about the awesome James Bond-style adventurous and successful lives they live compared to everyone else, because the IT people I know in real life we generally avoid even when we're drunk
 
2011-09-26 08:33:25 PM

Draskuul: I'm fine with a degree being useful to get your foot in the door. What pisses me off far more are companies that insist on degrees no matter the qualifications and experience. One company in town requires a four year degree for all IT staff, all the way down to the cable monkeys.

Even if you have a degree, if you see a company that has a hard line requiring a degree then I take that a sign to run away. That is a company letting HR do all their hiring and not the department staff that really knows what they are doing and what they need. You're bound to end up working in a college dorm environment with people who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.


I never THIS, but so much farking THIS... where I work, they don't care if you have a degree in a relevant topic, just as long as it's a degree... (IT managers who were accountants, accountant managers who have degrees in physical education)

/ a little thing I've picked up on.. most HR "professionals" are failed psychology / sociology majors
 
2011-09-26 08:33:26 PM

Bugerz: /I'll go play in the corner now with my dead language.


sudovian?
 
2011-09-26 08:38:28 PM

23FPB23: COLLEGE IS A JOKE


Not everybody who goes to college benefits from it, certainly, and there are too many people who have your attitude but inflict themselves on teachers and classmates anyway. You made the right choice.
 
2011-09-26 08:41:02 PM

LordOfThePings: Bugerz: /I'll go play in the corner now with my dead language.

sudovian?


Meimi enimavinga ast jūms erzinotunsi.
 
2011-09-26 08:44:00 PM

cmunic8r99: Gaseous Anomaly: I don't understand this "career transition" concept. I've never run across a job that didn't require significant prior experience in the exact same job.

/e.g. 5 years each Java, C#, and JCL

I have transitioned from being a doing satellite systems deployment and support1 to server administration. Took some training, and had to start lower in the food chain for that first gig, but it wasn't too bad. Having a technical degree didn't hurt, but the biggest thing I had going for me was that we had enough cushion in cash flow that I could take a pay cut without completely mucking up our standard of living.

Now I'm transitioning into datacenter compute, network, and storage design and implementation. Fortunately, my company is paying for most of the training and giving me great hands-on OJT to go with it.

1 (the link-budgeting, IP-multicast network design and management kind, not the DirecTV-installer kind)

jst3p:

The trick is you have to be good.

Fortunately, I had this going for me, too.


Hey cmunic8r99, ever a 29Y, 31S, 25S ??
 
2011-09-26 08:44:39 PM

Cpl.D: And then of course the oldie but goodie, the one where a 110 year old lady calls in because she can't download twelve gigs of great-grandchildren pictures over her 33.6 baud modem that's apparently connect not with copper telephone wire but twine.


pfft. That one's easy. Point the monitor towards the computer, so it can see better.

/tier 1.5 - yeah, a lot of helpdesk but also cool stuff too
 
2011-09-26 08:47:05 PM

Bugerz: Meimi enimavinga ast jūms erzinotunsi.


As asmu kanapinīks.
 
2011-09-26 08:49:12 PM
23FPB23: Autodidact is helpful, but talent is key. I've managed to remain gainfully employed in my industry for almost 20 years. I also managed to skip the typical lower rungs of my industry's ladder.

Here's how!:

1) LUCK

2) Education. Learned meself the PC shiat. Not a genius, not a total nerd, can't code (too impatient), Mom bought me an 8088 XT in summer of '89, and I never looked back. I am the Company Nerd for a company of around 80 employees in eight locations around KY. Its the Guru Theory: You know a thing or two about something that everyone else is terrified of = YOU'RE A GURU!! I kinda hate its like that, but its kept me employed. I have like 9 hours of college credit, a GED, and my ACT in April-89 was a 26, 32 on science component. Was later re-calced to a 28 after they changed the test. So, I claim 28 :-)

3) MORE LUCK. A good friend of mine followed a more traditional route into our industry, he got me my first interview, and in almost 20 years, I have worked for all of TWO employers in my field. Which leads to the last thing:

4) TALENT. I has it. I have a talent for learning by doing, This is as much luck as anything, but recognizing what you're good at helps you put it to use.

I'm not rich, but I am one of a very few from my HS days that is doing exactly what he always said he would. Those cats all got fancy degrees, and not a one of them is using their ol' paper in their current life. One guy got a degree in Urban Planning or some such. He sells toilets.

COLLEGE IS A JOKE


College gave me the ability to deliver babies, place large plastic tubes down people's throats, use Science and Skill to bring the dead back to life (sometimes), and make a difference in people's lives.


I'm sure many people who do the same on FARK, RNs, EMT/Paramedics, MDs, Research Scientists, Biologists, etc would disagree with you.
 
2011-09-26 08:49:29 PM
After getting my A.S. in programming (Fortran and COBOL, how useful! Thanks, college!), I taught myself to be a PC Tech, and spent about 8 years in that field, moving up into network support for a major metropolitan hospital. Then taught myself website design and development, switched careers and did that professionally for 12 years, doing sites for numerous high tech and financial firms.

Got laid off early this year and haven't been able to find work again, mostly because of my "non-standard educational track."

In other words, everything is BS if you don't have a BS.

/BS.

//PS. HR people are idiots.
 
2011-09-26 08:49:55 PM

LordOfThePings: Bugerz: Meimi enimavinga ast jūms erzinotunsi.

As asmu kanapinīks.


But do you smoke that rope too?
 
2011-09-26 08:59:05 PM

LordOfThePings: Bugerz: Meimi enimavinga ast jūms erzinotunsi.

As asmu kanapinīks.


That's easy for you to say.
 
2011-09-26 09:02:04 PM

Bigglesworth III: ArmanTanzarian: Bigglesworth III: I really wish I knew how you guys are getting your feet into the IT field without a degree or experience because I sure as hell can't find any internships (or even a PT job) that doesn't require either one.

Allow me... Link (new window)

That actually helped. I'm going to read up on that. Thanks!


Yes I understand.

I have hired many technologists in my career, and I'm not really sure if any of them even went to college. What we need is an expectation that you can pretty quickly spin-up and start being productive. Vendor certification is pretty much mandatory if you want a job from me, because that tells me more about what you know and are capable of than a college degree. (Unless you have an advanced degree in a specific field)

I don't even have a High school diploma... just a GED.

But I have certified in many vendor technologies over the years as I needed them. When all is said and done what you can actually do is what counts for me... titles might be ok for Business folks, but in IT you need skills.
 
2011-09-26 09:02:23 PM

Bugerz: But do you smoke that rope too?


Jo, jo. En stasmu kaupai. Kvei pardost geitin ir be sūrin.

We've about exhausted that page.
 
2011-09-26 09:02:59 PM

obzerver: sammyk:

I still worry what would happen if I ever needed to change jobs, but in the end I don't feel like dropping $50k on a piece of paper.

Been at it for 20. Your over the hump. If you get in career slump dump 4k into the latest vmware cert or whatever. A degree would be pointless for you. I don't have one either. I go with experience in interviews.

Warning! My CSB!
I couldn't agree more. I have always made more than my friends and family that have college degrees. I've had multiple MS Cert's for the past 15+ years (I'm 40 now). After high school, in 1991, they were racking up $40k in debt while I took my first "real job" at $29k a year with a crazy benefits package at 19 yrs old. Now most of them make about $60-$80K a year with a run of the mill benefits package. I'm over the six figure mark with a benefits package that pays damn near everything, six weeks vacation, 32 paid holidays, gym membership, massages every month, martial arts, hydrotherapy, yoga classes, weight loss clinics, wellness classes (whatever the hell that is), etc, etc, etc. $45k in surgery for a family member cost me a total of $40.00 in co-pay, and a host of other things for myself and all family members.

I've received a raise five times in the last seven years while most of my friends and family members have been laid off or been grateful they weren't (They tell me this while sitting in my eight person hot tub, biatching about bills and their job, and a hand full of them telling me how important a college education is....*insert facepalm here*..... ). I have more in my savings account than most of them have in their retirement accounts. My automated income/side jobs pull in more annually than some of them have in savings and retirement combined. I'm proud of what I have done and accomplished, especially without college degree.

Well, there's my csb, now I'm off to Tia Chi class, an hour massage, half hour in my hot tub then chill with my wife for the rest of the night :) Life is good. Peace out!

/Go Bruins!


Wow.. you're so wealthy you could afford the groupon with sensai mike *rolly eyes*

Here's a hint.. adjust for COLA. You live in greater Boston? That just over 100k a year is probably only worth 60k in most of the rest of the country. And you probably have a higher tax rate, a bigger mortgage, and a smaller house.

Sorry to rain on your elitism, but your solidly middle class.

Congrats on your benefits package, but it will be going away soon. I work in employee benefits, its going away for everybody. Especially in mass.
 
2011-09-26 09:03:28 PM

JonnyBGoode: Got laid off early this year and haven't been able to find work again, mostly because of my "non-standard educational track."

In other words, everything is BS if you don't have a BS.


At least not having a BS is fixable. Having a PhD is not fixable, and neither is a history of high-paying employment. Both can prevent you from being seriously considered for most of the jobs in your profession. A friend of mine is stuck in a horrible, soul-killing job. It's eating away his pride, and his skills at everything except politics are decaying. He would love to quit, but his current salary is extremely high (reflecting the desperation of his employer to retain him in said soul-killing job) and no one is willing to offer him a job at a significantly lower salary.

Not that it's easy to feel sorry for a guy making buckets of money, but his current situation is having such an effect on him that even his wife thinks he should accept a big cut in pay if he gets another offer.
 
2011-09-26 09:04:43 PM

dogawful: Draskuul: I'm fine with a degree being useful to get your foot in the door. What pisses me off far more are companies that insist on degrees no matter the qualifications and experience. One company in town requires a four year degree for all IT staff, all the way down to the cable monkeys.

Even if you have a degree, if you see a company that has a hard line requiring a degree then I take that a sign to run away. That is a company letting HR do all their hiring and not the department staff that really knows what they are doing and what they need. You're bound to end up working in a college dorm environment with people who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

I never THIS, but so much farking THIS... where I work, they don't care if you have a degree in a relevant topic, just as long as it's a degree... (IT managers who were accountants, accountant managers who have degrees in physical education)

/ a little thing I've picked up on.. most HR "professionals" are failed psychology / sociology majors


There's a reason for that and it's not because they are failures...

Education and training. Although a bachelor's degree is a typical path of entry into these occupations, many colleges and universities do not offer degree programs in personnel administration, human resources, or labor relations until the graduate degree level. However, many offer individual courses in these subjects at the undergraduate level in addition to concentrations in human resources administration or human resources management, training and development, organizational development, and compensation and benefits.

Because an interdisciplinary background is appropriate in this field, a combination of courses in the social sciences, business administration, and behavioral sciences is useful


Sociology and/or Psych are almost requisites for HR management positions
 
2011-09-26 09:09:06 PM

letrole: Draskuul: I'd take the person who spent their time with computing as a hobby over someone who just got a degree in it as a career choice any day.

There aren't that many hobbyists who actually do anything now.

1. Rip DVDs
2. Run a cleaning tool on an infected machine
3. Defrag (not as impressive to goobers ever since the GUI for it went away)
3. Photoshop pictures of cats

Nobody does HTML anymore. Nobody knows what a bat does. Nobody deletes io.sys or config.sys or ntldr on purpose just to see what would happen and then go on to figure out how to fix it. Nobody tries to see how many system settings they can change directly through regedit without using a control panel applet. Or use telnet to send an email.


I wrote 2 different bat files to automate a 3 hour per system task.

I then REWROTE it and a couple ini files after the "app owner" couldnt troubleshoot why it wouldnt work. I then went off on her after she changed it back and biatched that my fix didnt work.

I have a bat file army that will rename and then replace a bunch of files, then install a bunch of .reg keys to repair the damage that an as of yet unidentified piece of software is doing.

Hell I managed to avoid my eyes bleeding while I read through multiple weeks worth of event logs to track down a couple of systems that were spamming out virii on to the network.

Built a 13tb server because I wanted to set up a dump all with cross talk between MS and Linux. Going to get an 8tb server up to run VM's to turn the whole thing into a friggin domain at my house.

Taught myself everything I know about IT. No Degree, and Im loving my current job.
 
2011-09-26 09:20:46 PM
JonnyBGoode

P.S. I didn't know there was such a thing as a "non-standard" educational track for web designers or developers. The web guys I've worked with have had degrees in philosophy, photography, English, anything but CS. One was working at a video store when he landed the job with us. Web developers with CS degrees seem to be mostly Java monkeys whose greatest aspiration in life is to bounce from company to company lecturing people on "best practices" and leaving steaming piles of slow, bloated, not-quite-working "success" behind them. At this point, if a guy with a CS degree wanted to do web stuff for me, I'd have a hard time giving him a fair chance. So take heart! There is some anti-BS prejudice out there in addition to the pro-BS prejudice that you face.
 
2011-09-26 09:36:45 PM

Bigglesworth III: what should I be doing or looking for?


Check with your school's career services department or your major's department. See if you have career fairs coming up. These guys are all taking about the experience, but making good contacts will help you as well.

You should be able to intern doing helpdesk, q/a, testing, social media, data entry - all sorts of stuff - mostly you need a good attitude, willingness to learn and solid general skills (like Office or something).

Search your local craigslist for "intern." (Be willing to move or go back home for a job over the summer, if necessary.)

Volunteer your services at a non-profit. Teach senior citizens how to use computers at your local library or senior center. Offer to clean-up desktops or drives at a non-profit.

Start your own IT business or non-profit doing whatever you know how to do. Some local guys here started a non-profit that rehabs computers that are pulled out of service from organizations (like universities or large companies), then after wiping everything, they get these computers into the hands of under-privileged high school and jr. high students....just an idea.

Look for a part-time job in the industry.

Be creative.

When you get an internship (or job or volunteer position), shine. Do not blow it off. And improve whatever they're doing if you can. Cos you can say, "increased such and such by implementing my awesome plan while working at company X." on your resume.

Mr. zobear got a programming job out of college - but mostly b/c he had 2 years "real-world" experience alongside that - working 15 hours per week as a code monkey. Also Mr. zobear had a favorite professor, and the two of them ended up doing a project together that got published. Don't know if you have a favorite prof, yet but better to make friends and stand out than not.

 
2011-09-26 09:38:18 PM

sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!


farm7.static.flickr.com
 
2011-09-26 09:39:34 PM

LordOfThePings: Bugerz: But do you smoke that rope too?

Jo, jo. En stasmu kaupai. Kvei pardost geitin ir be sūrin.

We've about exhausted that page.


We could always switch to eyak but I think the joke may be pretty well played out.
 
2011-09-26 09:40:36 PM

hardinparamedic: 23FPB23: Autodidact is helpful, but talent is key. I've managed to remain gainfully employed in my industry for almost 20 years. I also managed to skip the typical lower rungs of my industry's ladder.

Here's how!:

1) LUCK

2) Education. Learned meself the PC shiat. Not a genius, not a total nerd, can't code (too impatient), Mom bought me an 8088 XT in summer of '89, and I never looked back. I am the Company Nerd for a company of around 80 employees in eight locations around KY. Its the Guru Theory: You know a thing or two about something that everyone else is terrified of = YOU'RE A GURU!! I kinda hate its like that, but its kept me employed. I have like 9 hours of college credit, a GED, and my ACT in April-89 was a 26, 32 on science component. Was later re-calced to a 28 after they changed the test. So, I claim 28 :-)

3) MORE LUCK. A good friend of mine followed a more traditional route into our industry, he got me my first interview, and in almost 20 years, I have worked for all of TWO employers in my field. Which leads to the last thing:

4) TALENT. I has it. I have a talent for learning by doing, This is as much luck as anything, but recognizing what you're good at helps you put it to use.

I'm not rich, but I am one of a very few from my HS days that is doing exactly what he always said he would. Those cats all got fancy degrees, and not a one of them is using their ol' paper in their current life. One guy got a degree in Urban Planning or some such. He sells toilets.

COLLEGE IS A JOKE

College gave me the ability to deliver babies, place large plastic tubes down people's throats, use Science and Skill to bring the dead back to life (sometimes), and make a difference in people's lives.


I'm sure many people who do the same on FARK, RNs, EMT/Paramedics, MDs, Research Scientists, Biologists, etc would disagree with you.


OK...that was trollish of me...college is very necessary for the things you reference, and many others. I guess what I SHOULD have said is the notion that you MUST have a degree to be anybody is a joke. I fully intend for my lil fella to be a much better student than I was, and get it done right. He can't be a rocket scientist/oncologist/other-really-important-to-the-rest-of-the-world-g uy without it.
 
2011-09-26 09:41:10 PM

Draskuul: I'm fine with a degree being useful to get your foot in the door. What pisses me off far more are companies that insist on degrees no matter the qualifications and experience. One company in town requires a four year degree for all IT staff, all the way down to the cable monkeys.

Even if you have a degree, if you see a company that has a hard line requiring a degree then I take that a sign to run away. That is a company letting HR do all their hiring and not the department staff that really knows what they are doing and what they need. You're bound to end up working in a college dorm environment with people who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.


I disagree. I'm an engineer in a cloud computing company with like five thousand servers; I have a degree. Looking at my peers, there's a clear line in maturity and organizational skills in the ones that have a degree and the ones that don't.

Keep in mind, a degree doesn't always say "I have studied this field". But it does say "I was able to apply myself to something for four years and have a certificate to prove my determination".

Seriously, there's a lot of people who are on an anti-college bender now, and I acknowledge that education is getting more expensive faster than anyone can really afford. But, don't let that fool you - a college degree is the barrier to entry to the successful jobs in today's world. There are obviously exceptions, but they are few, and far between.
 
2011-09-26 09:46:24 PM

zobear: Mr. zobear got a programming job out of college - but mostly b/c he had 2 years "real-world" experience alongside that - working 15 hours per week as a code monkey. Also Mr. zobear had a favorite professor, and the two of them ended up doing a project together that got published. Don't know if you have a favorite prof, yet but better to make friends and stand out than not.



Nice, The ISP I work for is about to undergo a merger, one of which we're all relatively certain our office will not survive. So, since I'm not married, have no kids, and no obligations, I'm going to shoot for my dream job. Game design and programming. I know next to nothing about C++, so I'm starting from the ground floor and trying to self-teach myself. When the hammer falls, I'll have a year and a half unemployment where I can do some serious all-day training.

/Used to muck around in qbasic back in the day
//visual basic to a much lesser extent.
///Preparing to just face-first into the great unknown: Exhilarating
 
2011-09-26 09:51:01 PM

Bigglesworth III: I'm currently getting my degree in computer science and have about 2.5 more years to go. This thread has made it clear that I need to rack up experience on my way out but what should I be doing or looking for? A lot of the internships that I'm looking up require a hell of a lot more than what I currently know (my skill base isn't much at the moment).

Current skill level: basic C++ and Java, can assemble and disassemble hardware, and I'll assume that knowing Calculus I probably doesn't mean shiat.


I'm in the same boat, just a year higher. From what I've heard from grad students, you basically want to do this:

First year and second year: Learn. Use that intervening summer to live in your parent's basement and get a ton of cash with no expenses. Do lots of activities to get them on your resume, and maintain at least an OK GPA. Your classes are not enough at this point (especially since EVERYONE takes those same classes). The research position, and being co-head of the student AI lab is.

Second Year: Use that awesome resume to get an internship at the biggest name you can find. You don't have to like the company or the work, it just has to be instantly recognizable by anyone who comes recruiting at your school. Actually, disliking them is helpful as you (probably) don't have the skills/experience to instantly be awesome, and those 1-2 weeks (out of a 10-12 week internship) where you scramble to figure out WTF is going on tend to screw you as far as getting a return offer goes.

Any extra years: See second year or second to last year as you see fit.

Second to last Year: Use your awesome internship recognition to walk into another internship at a place you actually want to work at. (The bit I'm at*). Actually try to find a place you might like working at, and learn the skills required to be instantly awesome there before you head over, so they'll give you a return offer. Also, take any classes that recruiters like to see somewhere in here.

Last year: Cruise out into a cushy developers position based on either your [n] internships or your return offer from the previous summer.

*Seriously, first half of the job fair was this morning and I have three interviews tomorrow for internships.

/So in my case: Going to University of Michigan, Summer Job was making $8/hr (made ~$7000 in 4 months after taxes and minimal expenses) at the golf course where Dad works. Activities were a couple of AI groups, and a (paid) research position writing Android apps though the school. Ended up becoming the co-head of one of the AI groups, and an officer in the parent org. Went to MSFT last summer, and now I'm in a beautiful position as far as next summer goes (would love either Google or the NSA, who are both here tomorrow).
 
2011-09-26 10:04:58 PM
Computer support specialist? Network administrator? What is this, yahoo.in?

\Teacher? What is this, 1997?
 
2011-09-26 10:07:48 PM

Cpl.D: When the hammer falls, I'll have a year and a half unemployment where I can do some serious all-day training.


That sounds awesome! Build your development machine while you have a paycheck (unless you're set there).

Best wishes to you.

:]
 
2011-09-26 10:07:56 PM

Draskuul: Even if you have a degree, if you see a company that has a hard line requiring a degree then I take that a sign to run away. That is a company letting HR do all their hiring and not the department staff that really knows what they are doing and what they need. You're bound to end up working in a college dorm environment with people who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.


My company requires degrees, and I think that works well for two reasons:

1. We hire about 1% of the applicants we get. HR needs to pare down the field into a manageable number of applicants with as little effort as possible, because they can't look deeply at each candidate, there simply isn't the manpower. The goal is to reject 95% of the applicants with as little effort as possible to focus HR and tech time on a deeper evaluation of the top 5%.

2. In the field I'm in, there simply isn't a pool of experienced candidates. We use a relatively niche technology, and the volume of people we hire each year greatly exceeds the total number of qualified individuals in the job market. So rather than hire people who know the technology, which is almost never possible, we hire people we think can quickly learn the technology. It costs us more to train an employee for six months than to send a student to Harvard for the same length of time; we want to estimate how well an employee will do with learning the technology, and the best parallel is to look at the data on how quickly and how well they learned in the past.
 
2011-09-26 10:11:59 PM

zobear: Cpl.D: When the hammer falls, I'll have a year and a half unemployment where I can do some serious all-day training.

That sounds awesome! Build your development machine while you have a paycheck (unless you're set there).

Best wishes to you.

:]


Thank you. I'm already delving into a newbie programmer book. Function calls and arrays and enumerators, oh my!

The next two years is gonna be a hoot.
 
2011-09-26 10:12:40 PM

xiaodown: Seriously, there's a lot of people who are on an anti-college bender now, and I acknowledge that education is getting more expensive faster than anyone can really afford. But, don't let that fool you - a college degree is the barrier to entry to the successful jobs in today's world. There are obviously exceptions, but they are few, and far between.


You're wrong.

One only needs to look at the common themes of every post of all the successful farkers in this thread and implement a plan of action from that.

Clearly the best course of action is to invent a time machine and travel back to 1994 and apply to a tech-sounding job and bullshiat your way through the interview by spitting back some industry-related buzz words you learned in a Time magazine article that morning, and land your first job since your were one of two people applying for it.

You see?? It's that farking easy.
 
2011-09-26 10:19:38 PM

chu2dogg: Clearly the best course of action is to invent a time machine and travel back to 1994 and apply to a tech-sounding job and bullshiat your way through the interview by spitting back some industry-related buzz words you learned in a Time magazine article that morning, and land your first job since your were one of two people applying for it.


C'mon think it through. If you had a time machine, all you'd need to do is take a can of anchovies into the 31st Century.
 
2011-09-26 10:35:02 PM

debug: All that plus a pension and great medical benefits too, for only 180-190 days per year, which is about 80 to 90 days less then the rest of us.

If teaching is what you want to do, it's really a pretty decent gig these days. I mean 60k at 21 years old? That's really pretty good money for working 75% of a year. That would be 80k to most other year round professionals on salary.


Your math is horrible. My last year teaching full time was 2350 hours total. Well more than what I worked in IT. It worked out to less than $22 an hour. No paid vacation and when you are sick you still have to make sure that your sub knows what to do.

Good medical benefits? Sure, but about the same in I.T.

Working 75% of the year? 80-90 days less than other jobs? Good one. fark teaching. Back to I.T. now and never going back into a class room unless they up the pay significantly.
 
2011-09-26 10:40:38 PM

Angry_Monkey: debug: All that plus a pension and great medical benefits too, for only 180-190 days per year, which is about 80 to 90 days less then the rest of us.

If teaching is what you want to do, it's really a pretty decent gig these days. I mean 60k at 21 years old? That's really pretty good money for working 75% of a year. That would be 80k to most other year round professionals on salary.

Your math is horrible. My last year teaching full time was 2350 hours total. Well more than what I worked in IT. It worked out to less than $22 an hour. No paid vacation and when you are sick you still have to make sure that your sub knows what to do.

Good medical benefits? Sure, but about the same in I.T.

Working 75% of the year? 80-90 days less than other jobs? Good one. fark teaching. Back to I.T. now and never going back into a class room unless they up the pay significantly.


Do you have a DB pension? If you work the full 25 years, you'll have a pension worth about $900K. You'll have an inflation-indexed income that lasts until you die.
 
2011-09-26 11:18:24 PM

I Mash Grains: jst3p:
You couldn't be more wrong. IT Audit and gunning for IT manager? Thinks a degree means anything in IT? Your type makes the worst manager possible. You will probably will get the job too.

You obviously know nothing of IT controls, risk assessments, or Sarbanes Oxley. As an IT Auditor I know the business side as well as the IT world. Any observation I make to the CIO is taken as a means to improve their system controls. I didn't say I would only hire people with degrees, but if you want to be the one doing the hiring these days, you will need a degree. Not my rule, but HR's.

And yes, I will get the job because I look at the big picture.


"Doing the hiring" is only one way to advance. A purely technical track can be lucrative and fulfilling as well.
 
2011-09-26 11:24:56 PM

The Southern Dandy: cmunic8r99: Gaseous Anomaly: I don't understand this "career transition" concept. I've never run across a job that didn't require significant prior experience in the exact same job.

/e.g. 5 years each Java, C#, and JCL

I have transitioned from being a doing satellite systems deployment and support1 to server administration. Took some training, and had to start lower in the food chain for that first gig, but it wasn't too bad. Having a technical degree didn't hurt, but the biggest thing I had going for me was that we had enough cushion in cash flow that I could take a pay cut without completely mucking up our standard of living.

Now I'm transitioning into datacenter compute, network, and storage design and implementation. Fortunately, my company is paying for most of the training and giving me great hands-on OJT to go with it.

1 (the link-budgeting, IP-multicast network design and management kind, not the DirecTV-installer kind)

jst3p:

The trick is you have to be good.

Fortunately, I had this going for me, too.

Hey cmunic8r99, ever a 29Y, 31S, 25S ??


Was the AF equivalent of 29Y (2E1X1)
 
2011-09-26 11:25:53 PM

Benjimin_Dover: dionysusaur: Benjimin_Dover: Computer Support Specialist - Annual Average Earning Potential: $49,930*

#1. The article isn't an article, it's a commercial ad for certificate mills.
#2. The one fact above tells me the rest is suspect. I'm in IT, and while it may be plausible for somebody dropping workstations on desks to be making that salary in a high cost of living area, it definately ain't going to be the average.

The CIO and CTO are - theoretically - in IT, and those salaries + the billing rates (not the pay rates) for the EMC/HP/IBM/COGNOS/... contractors all push up on that 'average.'

I think that is where they got the number, but the description really is talking about the bottom of the group. Standard mixing things up to make it look good and why it is suspect.


Link (new window)

PC Tech 2.
2-5 years of experience.
55k


Broomfield is not a high cost of living area.
 
2011-09-26 11:25:54 PM
In my ample spare time I'm studying something they don't have diploma mills for because it requires specialized knowledge of statistics and to never smile.

I know statistics pretty well, and the new aspects are of interest.
I don't smile. Even when I feel like I'm smiling people think I'm not smiling.

/At least I wouldn't sign up for any programs related to it.
//You either get the statistics or you don't.
///No, not a professional gambler.
 
2011-09-26 11:28:34 PM

wildcardjack: In my ample spare time I'm studying something they don't have diploma mills for because it requires specialized knowledge of statistics and to never smile.

I know statistics pretty well, and the new aspects are of interest.
I don't smile. Even when I feel like I'm smiling people think I'm not smiling.

/At least I wouldn't sign up for any programs related to it.
//You either get the statistics or you don't.
///No, not a professional gambler.


60% of the time, statistics work every time.
 
2011-09-26 11:29:03 PM

No Such Agency: Gaseous Anomaly:
I don't understand this "career transition" concept. I've never run across a job that didn't require significant prior experience in the exact same job.

/e.g. 5 years each Java, C#, and JCL

IT manager required. Must have 10 years' experience with Web 2.0 apps and Firefox 4.

Ah screw it, eventually everyone will be classified as "indentured laborer" and our kids' only hope for upward mobility will be service in the police or armed forces, or for the prettier ones, becoming a concubine to the elite.


*snickers* Please, biatch. I'm gonna be that elite...oh, screw it, who am I kidding. I'm gonna be spearheading the revolution.

/Much as I'd love to be a supervillain, my sense of morality interferes every damn time.
//...Psst. One of you guys! Piss me off so I turn into a supervillain!
 
2011-09-26 11:37:44 PM

Angry_Monkey: debug: All that plus a pension and great medical benefits too, for only 180-190 days per year, which is about 80 to 90 days less then the rest of us.

If teaching is what you want to do, it's really a pretty decent gig these days. I mean 60k at 21 years old? That's really pretty good money for working 75% of a year. That would be 80k to most other year round professionals on salary.

Your math is horrible. My last year teaching full time was 2350 hours total. Well more than what I worked in IT. It worked out to less than $22 an hour. No paid vacation and when you are sick you still have to make sure that your sub knows what to do.

Good medical benefits? Sure, but about the same in I.T.

Working 75% of the year? 80-90 days less than other jobs? Good one. fark teaching. Back to I.T. now and never going back into a class room unless they up the pay significantly.


No one is talking about hours. Nearly every professional job works more then an 8 hour day. That's why they are on salary.

I'm pretty sure you don't get what teachers get.
Check out page 13 Link (new window)

It's really not just about the salary. You have to factor in all the benefits

The 80-90 days less figure isn't mine. It's not hard to find though.
Link (new window)
Link (new window)
Link (new window)
 
2011-09-26 11:39:22 PM
http://www.publicschoolspending.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/CAMP-HI LL-SD-2008-12.pdf

Since it doesn't want to work as an active link
 
2011-09-26 11:46:28 PM
This thread confirms that most farkers are STILL geeks.
 
2011-09-26 11:48:27 PM

Chilly Willie: This thread confirms that most farkers are STILL geeks.


I've been a geek my whole life, it is finally paying off.
 
2011-09-26 11:48:51 PM

Chilly Willie: This thread confirms that most farkers are STILL geeks.


Yes.

And water is STILL wet.
 
2011-09-26 11:50:28 PM

hej: Also, I'm highly skeptical of this $50k/year "earning potential" for doing PC tech support.


IT, not PC tech support. That said:

I'm not. I'm a very well paid cable monkey, and my pay-rate could easily reach $40k if I wanted more hours. It's not hard to imagine the guys doing the real IT stuff in the room next door making more.
 
2011-09-26 11:50:41 PM
When I started in my first position as a graphic artist with a video game company, I was asked two things: "have you ever used a computer before to draw with?" and "can you draw?"

This was in 1993.

Now your resume will not even get looked at by the screening computer software without the magic letters "BA" or "BS". You have to know nearly the entire Adobe suite (Photoshop, Fireworks, Flash, Illustrator, Premiere, Dreamweaver), and have at least intermediate to expert knowledge of 3dStudio and/or Maya plus ZBrush and Motionbuilder along with the sheepskin.
In addition, you must usually have at least two shipped games on your resume (YMMV). Not worked on, not started, not contracted for, but in the stores or online shipped.

All this before you stepped in the door to show them a portfolio.

I couldn't get my job today the way I did back then, and that's probably the case with most of these people who got into their prospective fields back when all you needed were a pulse and at least one working opposable thumb. Back then, computers were NEW and SCARY to most people, and anyone who even knew how to plug one in and press the power button was hailed as a god. It was much easier for "hobbyists" to get in, and at decent salaries.

Things are different now.
 
2011-09-26 11:51:59 PM
How about owning a joke forum site?
 
2011-09-26 11:52:27 PM

Draskuul: Fubini:
With a degree versus without:

4) IT Professional vs you'll be working with a lot of high schoolers
6) Net Admin vs you assist the guy who pulls cable

I really have to disagree with those. I've experienced exactly the opposite. The college grads come out with no real world experience, a head full of theory and no practice, and a piece of paper and loan bills that make them feel entitled.

I'd take the person who spent their time with computing as a hobby over someone who just got a degree in it as a career choice any day.

I've met plenty of the latter. They are the ones debugging code but don't know how to turn their PC on. The former are the ones stuck teaching them how and trying to do their own real work (usually at a higher quality as well).


I agree.

/Self-taught programmer, GED, no college. Going on 12 years now and I can't complain about the pay. No loans to repay is awesome!
 
2011-09-26 11:57:01 PM
I couldn't get my job today the way I did back then, and that's probably the case with most of these people who got into their current fields back when all you needed were a pulse and at least one working opposable thumb. Back then, computers were NEW and SCARY to most people, and anyone who even knew how to plug one in and press the power button was hailed as a god. It was much easier for "hobbyists" to get in, and at decent salaries.

/FTFM
 
2011-09-27 12:17:03 AM

rewind2846:

Things are different now.


Quoted for truth.

In fact, this could just be replied to every cool story in this thread.
 
2011-09-27 12:23:06 AM

davidab: FTFA - Career Change Option #2: Paralegal
Are you interested in a law career, but want to avoid the four-year bachelor's degree and three years in law school? Good news...

Forget paralegal, go for lawyer! Last I knew all that was required to be a lawyer in CA was to pass the BAR (high school diploma may or may not have been required). Now granted most people would need 5-7 years of education to pass the BAR but hey, details right?


One of the pre-reqs for taking the bar is either a degree from an accredited law school, or an equivlant time clerking for a judge. You can't just roll in and take the exam.
 
2011-09-27 12:23:43 AM

Cpl.D: zobear: Mr. zobear got a programming job out of college - but mostly b/c he had 2 years "real-world" experience alongside that - working 15 hours per week as a code monkey. Also Mr. zobear had a favorite professor, and the two of them ended up doing a project together that got published. Don't know if you have a favorite prof, yet but better to make friends and stand out than not.



Nice, The ISP I work for is about to undergo a merger, one of which we're all relatively certain our office will not survive. So, since I'm not married, have no kids, and no obligations, I'm going to shoot for my dream job. Game design and programming. I know next to nothing about C++, so I'm starting from the ground floor and trying to self-teach myself. When the hammer falls, I'll have a year and a half unemployment where I can do some serious all-day training.

/Used to muck around in qbasic back in the day
//visual basic to a much lesser extent.
///Preparing to just face-first into the great unknown: Exhilarating


If it makes you feel better, the game dev company I work for (you've probably heard of us) has hired people as gameplay programmers with little or no C++ experience in the past. In this industry, the ability to learn and incorporate new ideas trumps formal education, and someone who's willing to learn and is passionate about what they do is more valuable than someone with a degree who just wants to clock in every day.

EIP if you want more info--although I can promise you nothing jobwise, I'd be more than happy to help you out on the way if I can.
 
2011-09-27 12:25:18 AM

Bigglesworth III: I'm currently getting my degree in computer science and have about 2.5 more years to go. This thread has made it clear that I need to rack up experience on my way out but what should I be doing or looking for? A lot of the internships that I'm looking up require a hell of a lot more than what I currently know (my skill base isn't much at the moment).

Current skill level: basic C++ and Java, can assemble and disassemble hardware, and I'll assume that knowing Calculus I probably doesn't mean shiat.


I can tell you this, that C++ knowledge doesn't help the resume nowadays. So many schools are stuck to this language, while languages like java, C#, and python(sort of) are what's popular in the market right now, I would say almost 65% of jobs i seen last year when looking for a job wanted java experience above all else.

If it wasn't for personal projects and an internship, I'm sure I would still be unemployed(got a job in software about a month after graduating, lucky).

You should research agile methods before heading to interviews, They are the standard for software development now.

You can look into contributing to an open source project, it can look very good on a resume. I have a friend who' got a free ride in grad school based on open source work, and ended up at google afterwards.

At any rate if you don't have anything tangible to set you apart from the mobs of graduates with c++ on their resume and nothing else, then the market is rough coming right out of college.

Don't forget that a CS degree doesnt always equate to software engineering. You can get a job as a business analyst writing requirements or even as a qa analyst to get started.
 
2011-09-27 12:31:08 AM

spnartie: Bigglesworth III: I'm currently getting my degree in computer science and have about 2.5 more years to go. This thread has made it clear that I need to rack up experience on my way out but what should I be doing or looking for? A lot of the internships that I'm looking up require a hell of a lot more than what I currently know (my skill base isn't much at the moment).

Current skill level: basic C++ and Java, can assemble and disassemble hardware, and I'll assume that knowing Calculus I probably doesn't mean shiat.

I can tell you this, that C++ knowledge doesn't help the resume nowadays. So many schools are stuck to this language, while languages like java, C#, and python(sort of) are what's popular in the market right now, I would say almost 65% of jobs i seen last year when looking for a job wanted java experience above all else.

If it wasn't for personal projects and an internship, I'm sure I would still be unemployed(got a job in software about a month after graduating, lucky).

You should research agile methods before heading to interviews, They are the standard for software development now.

You can look into contributing to an open source project, it can look very good on a resume. I have a friend who' got a free ride in grad school based on open source work, and ended up at google afterwards.

At any rate if you don't have anything tangible to set you apart from the mobs of graduates with c++ on their resume and nothing else, then the market is rough coming right out of college.

Don't forget that a CS degree doesnt always equate to software engineering. You can get a job as a business analyst writing requirements or even as a qa analyst to get started.


Most soul crushing job of all time
 
2011-09-27 12:37:53 AM

debug:
No one is talking about hours. Nearly every professional job works more then an 8 hour day. That's why they are on salary.

I'm pretty sure you don't get what teachers get.
Check out page 13 Link (new window)

It's really not just about the salary. You have to factor in all the benefits

The 80-90 days less figure isn't mine. It's not hard to find though.
Link (new window)
Link (new window)
Link (new window)


I don't think you actually read my post. You are speaking as an authority on a subject you have no idea about. Let me make it clear.

I have worked as both a teacher and in I.T. I first worked in I.T. then taught then went back to I.T.

You don't get to disregard hours because it doesn't suit your argument. You need to have a common measurement to compare. Sure, in I.T. I can put in longer days on occasion and sometimes very long weeks when against a deadline. Over the course of a year I worked more as a teacher. (Would you say someone who worked 1 hour a day for 365 days a year worked more than you? Of course not...)

So, what exactly do I not 'get' in what teachers get?

Benefits? Healthcare? That's close to a draw depending on company.

Retirement? The extra money I make in I.T. that goes into retirement vehicles is better that the pension. (University instructors are allowed to opt out of the pension and place their money into different plans. Almost every one does. Why is that?)

So outside of a pension (which is seemingly overvalued by those who don't know about it,) and healthcare (which is comparable to insurance in the industry,) what exactly are these tremendous benefits that I missed out on?
 
2011-09-27 12:53:00 AM

Vangor: Teachers are often revered as some of the most important working professionals

By who? No reverence thus far. Plenty of vitriol. The majority of folks barely know what teachers do, or rather what quality teachers do.


Unless reverence has something to do with sex with students. Which is what teachers do.
 
2011-09-27 12:55:34 AM

Evil Twin Skippy: . Mostly because I'm an autodidact.

 
2011-09-27 01:17:46 AM

chu2dogg: Its funny when I come on fark I read about the awesome James Bond-style adventurous and successful lives they live compared to everyone else, because the IT people I know in real life we generally avoid even when we're drunk


There's often a difference between "being in IT" and being a freakin' computer nerd.
 
2011-09-27 01:30:50 AM
Deep down inside..somewhere deep.. you hear a voice.. Is this IT experience I have going to mean shiate in 5-10 years? Maybe I need to do something to differentiate myself.. maybe all those idiots who said a degree was "worth" it because it proved I could work long hours and put up with extreme amounts of endless bullshiat were right. Maybe the bulk of the classes that are not in any way specific to my major, like English, Math, Sociology, and Physics, will help me to become a better person and help me understand the world better.

Or maybe they are all just idiots who wasted their money on "college".

/globalization is going to crush IT, as will virtualization at all levels.
//the returning military is going to CRUSH employment. Those people, my friends, know how to work . And they can figure out a "thing or two" about computers and electronics enough to take your job with the pussy ass degree that costs too much.
 
2011-09-27 01:42:01 AM

Angry_Monkey: debug:
No one is talking about hours. Nearly every professional job works more then an 8 hour day. That's why they are on salary.

I'm pretty sure you don't get what teachers get.
Check out page 13 Link (new window)

It's really not just about the salary. You have to factor in all the benefits

The 80-90 days less figure isn't mine. It's not hard to find though.
Link (new window)
Link (new window)
Link (new window)

I don't think you actually read my post. You are speaking as an authority on a subject you have no idea about. Let me make it clear.

I have worked as both a teacher and in I.T. I first worked in I.T. then taught then went back to I.T.

You don't get to disregard hours because it doesn't suit your argument. You need to have a common measurement to compare. Sure, in I.T. I can put in longer days on occasion and sometimes very long weeks when against a deadline. Over the course of a year I worked more as a teacher. (Would you say someone who worked 1 hour a day for 365 days a year worked more than you? Of course not...)

So, what exactly do I not 'get' in what teachers get?

Benefits? Healthcare? That's close to a draw depending on company.

Retirement? The extra money I make in I.T. that goes into retirement vehicles is better that the pension. (University instructors are allowed to opt out of the pension and place their money into different plans. Almost every one does. Why is that?)

So outside of a pension (which is seemingly overvalued by those who don't know about it,) and healthcare (which is comparable to insurance in the industry,) what exactly are these tremendous benefits that I missed out on?



I read your post and understood it just fine. I don't recall claiming to be an authority, I just stated that most professionals work more then 8 hours a day. I know I almost always do, and I do it all year long. I'm quite certain that I work more hours then a teacher and I'm sure I did when I was a QA analyst as well

I would be very surprised if your medical and dental benefits were anything close to what's in the contract I linked. Dental is on page 18. Employee pays 20% for Periodontics and 20% for Major Restoration. Everything else is paid by employer 100%.

If pensions are so crappy, why do unions and union employees fight tooth and nail to keep them? If your investments tank, you're screwed. A person with a pension doesn't have to worry about that.

When you retire, will your job pay you for 270 days of unused sick leave? Teaching can.
 
2011-09-27 01:44:31 AM

spnartie: At any rate if you don't have anything tangible to set you apart from the mobs of graduates with c++ on their resume and nothing else, then the market is rough coming right out of college.


When you mean "nothing else", are you referring to other languages or other aspects of the CS field? Because you can be language limited so long as you have experience in other aspects. I know a few folks who work almost entirely in C, C++ and ASM because they primarily work on core operating system components and device drivers. They just don't have a need to learn C# or Java.
 
2011-09-27 02:39:26 AM

debug: I read your post and understood it just fine. I don't recall claiming to be an authority, I just stated that most professionals work more then 8 hours a day. I know I almost always do, and I do it all year long. I'm quite certain that I work more hours then a teacher and I'm sure I did when I was a QA analyst as well


Ahem...That's really pretty good money for working 75% of a year.

I take it you are rescinding that statement then? You know, where you directly stated that teachers worked 75% of a year. So you work more hours than a teacher? Possibly, but you have a problem with that statement. First you don't state how many hours you work and second you have no clue how many hours teachers work (some work more than I did, some work less.) I have given the time I worked as a teacher, 2350 hours yearly, which works out to 47 hours per week for a 50 week year.


I would be very surprised if your medical and dental benefits were anything close to what's in the contract I linked. Dental is on page 18. Employee pays 20% for Periodontics and 20% for Major Restoration. Everything else is paid by employer 100%.

You have very selective reading habits. Dental is capped at $1500 yearly, same as most everywhere. So, no, everything else is not covered by the employer. Once they pay $1500, the employee pays 100%, not the employer. You sound as if you have never dealt with insurance before.

If pensions are so crappy, why do unions and union employees fight tooth and nail to keep them? If your investments tank, you're screwed. A person with a pension doesn't have to worry about that.

With a 3.5% return on my investments, I am ahead of the pension. Why do they fight for it? Simple, many teachers are poor with money. You would be surprised at the number of teachers living pay check to pay check. So it makes good sense for the union to make sure its mathematically challenged members keep a pension instead of doing their investing themselves. Ever see a high school English teacher solve an equation? Neither have I.

When you retire, will your job pay you for 270 days of unused sick leave? Teaching can.

Nope. You got me. Once I get a certain number of sick days, I think 20, they let me use them as vacation or buy them out. (Their choice, depending on company needs and scheduling.) So, they buy them out faster than the school district.

By the way, your link was rejected because you added a space in it. QA Analyst? I'm gonna leave that one alone...
 
2011-09-27 03:11:25 AM

cgraves67: You may be able to get a job teaching without a bachelors degree in education if the state you live in has lax standards or you have an existing degree and experience in the subject you would be teaching.


You don't need a degree in education. It's a good choice if you are going to school expressly to be an elementary school teacher, but (maybe not outside California), it doesn't matter what your degree is in, as long as you have one, and complete the teacher education internship. My wife taught elementary school for a few years with BA in Fine Art.
 
2011-09-27 03:16:47 AM

cmunic8r99: The Southern Dandy: cmunic8r99: Gaseous Anomaly: I don't understand this "career transition" concept. I've never run across a job that didn't require significant prior experience in the exact same job.

/e.g. 5 years each Java, C#, and JCL

I have transitioned from being a doing satellite systems deployment and support1 to server administration. Took some training, and had to start lower in the food chain for that first gig, but it wasn't too bad. Having a technical degree didn't hurt, but the biggest thing I had going for me was that we had enough cushion in cash flow that I could take a pay cut without completely mucking up our standard of living.

Now I'm transitioning into datacenter compute, network, and storage design and implementation. Fortunately, my company is paying for most of the training and giving me great hands-on OJT to go with it.

1 (the link-budgeting, IP-multicast network design and management kind, not the DirecTV-installer kind)

jst3p:

The trick is you have to be good.

Fortunately, I had this going for me, too.

Hey cmunic8r99, ever a 29Y, 31S, 25S ??

Was the AF equivalent of 29Y (2E1X1)


Why, yes. Yes it was. You sound SATCOMy.
 
2011-09-27 03:24:37 AM
This just in: If you aren't a farking moron, you can "transition" into a lot of careers. Basic competence and work ethic go really, really, really, really, rrrreeeeaaaallllyyyy far in a world where the majority of the workforce are lazy and stupid.
 
2011-09-27 03:42:08 AM

JonnyBGoode: Got laid off early this year and haven't been able to find work again, mostly because of my "non-standard educational track."


I work in a very niche sub-field of IT where experienced people are fairly hard to find, so many companies will relax their college requirements in order to fill an open position. The catch is that only a handful of large companies and consulting firms hire people dedicated in my field, so available jobs are fairly scattered. As such, landing one of those jobs requires a great deal of flexibility. Hiring on to a new employer usually requires relocation. Joining a consulting firm requires travel.

If I don't want to relocate or travel, then the diploma wall starts showing up. You can sometimes get around that by working swing shifts or weekend shifts, but those jobs are somewhat rare to find. So in short, unless you bring something unique to the table, many companies will throw your resume into the trash unless you don't have a degree. It sucks, but it is what it is.

I've found that load-balancers and mainframes (especially IBM z/VM) are two niche IT areas that have this problem. Finding training is somewhat hard and expensive, but it is a heck of a lot cheaper than 4 years of college.
 
2011-09-27 04:08:21 AM

Angry_Monkey: debug: I read your post and understood it just fine. I don't recall claiming to be an authority, I just stated that most professionals work more then 8 hours a day. I know I almost always do, and I do it all year long. I'm quite certain that I work more hours then a teacher and I'm sure I did when I was a QA analyst as well

Ahem...That's really pretty good money for working 75% of a year.

I take it you are rescinding that statement then? You know, where you directly stated that teachers worked 75% of a year. So you work more hours than a teacher? Possibly, but you have a problem with that statement. First you don't state how many hours you work and second you have no clue how many hours teachers work (some work more than I did, some work less.) I have given the time I worked as a teacher, 2350 hours yearly, which works out to 47 hours per week for a 50 week year.


I would be very surprised if your medical and dental benefits were anything close to what's in the contract I linked. Dental is on page 18. Employee pays 20% for Periodontics and 20% for Major Restoration. Everything else is paid by employer 100%.

You have very selective reading habits. Dental is capped at $1500 yearly, same as most everywhere. So, no, everything else is not covered by the employer. Once they pay $1500, the employee pays 100%, not the employer. You sound as if you have never dealt with insurance before.

If pensions are so crappy, why do unions and union employees fight tooth and nail to keep them? If your investments tank, you're screwed. A person with a pension doesn't have to worry about that.

With a 3.5% return on my investments, I am ahead of the pension. Why do they fight for it? Simple, many teachers are poor with money. You would be surprised at the number of teachers living pay check to pay check. So it makes good sense for the union to make sure its mathematically challenged members keep a pension instead of doing their investing themselves. Ever see a high school English teacher solve an equation? Neither have I.

When you retire, will your job pay you for 270 days of unused sick leave? Teaching can.

Nope. You got me. Once I get a certain number of sick days, I think 20, they let me use them as vacation or buy them out. (Their choice, depending on company needs and scheduling.) So, they buy them out faster than the school district.

By the way, your link was rejected because you added a space in it. QA Analyst? I'm gonna leave that one alone...


If you're off for 3 months of the year, that's 25%. I worked 2409 hours last year, so yeah, I think I work more hours then most teachers. I'll pass that number this year (just now getting home from work, 5pm to 3:30am today). My best friend is a middle school teacher and I can tell you he does nothing even remotely work related in the summer time and is not putting in 10 hour days.

Yes, after $1500 the employee pays. Do you get everything free up to that $1500? I don't. I have co-pays. I'm sure you are also aware that it is not a normal practice for a company to buy back unused vacation or sick time, so please don't try to act like that's a standard practice if your company does that.

I didn't add the space.
 
2011-09-27 04:11:28 AM

toraque: If it makes you feel better, the game dev company I work for (you've probably heard of us) has hired people as gameplay programmers with little or no C++ experience in the past. In this industry, the ability to learn and incorporate new ideas trumps formal education, and someone who's willing to learn and is passionate about what they do is more valuable than someone with a degree who just wants to clock in every day.

EIP if you want more info--although I can promise you nothing jobwise, I'd be more than happy to help you out on the way if I can.


Email happily sent. Thank you.
 
2011-09-27 04:42:44 AM
I work with plenty of people who make six figures with no degree. Working in the mining industry is very rewarding monetary wise if you are willing to do it.

/Australian mining... no idea what the situation is like in the US or elsewhere
 
2011-09-27 04:55:34 AM

deadpanwalking: Evil Twin Skippy: sammyk: Please don't say IT! Please don't say IT!

FARK! Stop trying to unload failures from the rest of the business world on us. You have to study harder than what's required for a BS and guess what it never ever ends. If you are too lazy to get a degree you will fail in IT!

This.

That said, I've managed 13 years in IT without a degree. Mostly because I'm an autodidact.

Autodidacts for the win. I manage a bunch of writers and the best ones are the ones who simply come by it naturally and are addicted to teaching themselves.

Having said that, if you want a high-paying job right now in the ad industry, become a social media expert. We are hurting for people. Anyone who's smart can teach themselves. If you're better than I am at it (I'm pretty good but I don't have time to specialize in that sort of thing), I will hire you.


Sounds good, sign me up.
 
2011-09-27 05:14:53 AM
I work for a leading manufacture of heavy duty engines. I usually end up doing most of the shift engineer's job, while getting awful pay and being on a seven day work week. I work the weekends so he can be off. And his total lack of common sense is unnerving. It's taught me that many places would benefit from having smart people who are new to the specific occupation or industry as fresh outlook consultants. I've solved my fair share of problems with out of the box thinking and having no set in stone ways. But It's only ever gotten me a larger work load with no chance of heading up the ladder here.
 
Slu
2011-09-27 05:31:02 AM
The people that say college is a waste of time obviously never have been to Penn State (or the like) for a football weekend. Those 4 years were worth every cent.
 
2011-09-27 07:38:10 AM

debug:
If you're off for 3 months of the year, that's 25%. I worked 2409 hours last year, so yeah, I think I work more hours then most teachers. I'll pass that number this year (just now getting home from work, 5pm to 3:30am today). My best friend is a middle school teacher and I can tell you he does nothing even remotely work related in the summer time and is not putting in 10 hour days.

Yes, after $1500 the employee pays. Do you get everything free up to that $1500? I don't. I have co-pays. I'm sure you are also aware that it is not a normal practice for a company to buy back unused vacation or sick time, so please don't try to act like that's a standard practice if your company does that.

I didn't add the space.


You worked 10.5 hours today? I highly doubt that. You have 5 unique posts during the time you claimed to 'work.' (In the 7, 8, 9, 11, and 1 O'Clock hours.) That's just one thread on one site. Workin' hard or hardly workin'? (Not that I mind, I know that happens a lot in I.T. related fields, just don't pretend that you put in 10.5 hours while constantly wiping the sweat from your brow.) So, no, I don't buy that 2409 hour number at all. It magically appeared after you were called on it. As for your 'friend', if he isn't from Canada and would be unknown to any/everyone, let me guess...P.E. teacher. Yep, they get it easy, no doubt. Same pay and little to no work outside of normal school hours (if they don't get a book class.)

Since you want to go back to percentages to support your non-existent argument I can only assume you are being obtuse to be obtuse.

I also have co-pays. Nice try though to try to cover another weak point. Dental co-pays, which for most people amount to two visits yearly. If you have *one* crown done your insurance is up for the year. You base this miracle insurance on the *possibility* of a difference of $20-$50 a year. You also realize that after the $1500 cap is reached, co-pays are not relevant. Of course you do.

Buy back of vacation and sick days is a common, though not universal, practice. Sounds like you work at a bad company.

Of course you didn't add the space. I'm just saying someone in the I.T. industry, especially in QA, would have done minimal testing to make sure something so trivial was correct. Perhaps correcting it, or at least stating how to correct it if the website was not being cooperative. What do you do again?
 
2011-09-27 07:44:16 AM
You can break into these fields before you complete your bachelors though. there's a reason.
 
2011-09-27 08:08:53 AM

Slu: The people that say college is a waste of time obviously never have been to Penn State (or the like) for a football weekend. Those 4 years were worth every cent.


That would be the #1 reason I resent being a PSU alum.
Now they send me brochures so I can get their "Discount" packages for touring Italy.
How about they take the Nike child labor swoosh off their football uniforms?
How about the engineering building? That's an international embarrassment.

No degree in IT, but that is what I do and love it.
Many degree carrying employees have come and gone after tapping the company's resources and moving on, using us as a stepping stone for their own "goals" and having kept in touch with them, they're not doing any better than if they had stayed. Those that stay, are rewarded.

PSU make Duke look nice.
 
2011-09-27 08:23:37 AM

bigkiel: the returning military is going to CRUSH employment. Those people, my friends, know how to work . And they can figure out a "thing or two" about computers and electronics enough to take your job with the pussy ass degree that costs too much.


1) Unemployment among Iraq and Afghanistan veterans is around 40%. 2) Officers and NCOs maybe, but your average truck-driving Army grunt, not so much.

/use the G.I. bill to learn a skill other than "I can put up with as much shiat as they can shovel" or you're going to be a statistic
 
Slu
2011-09-27 08:31:24 AM

vudukungfu: Slu: The people that say college is a waste of time obviously never have been to Penn State (or the like) for a football weekend. Those 4 years were worth every cent.

That would be the #1 reason I resent being a PSU alum.
Now they send me brochures so I can get their "Discount" packages for touring Italy.
How about they take the Nike child labor swoosh off their football uniforms?
How about the engineering building? That's an international embarrassment.

No degree in IT, but that is what I do and love it.
Many degree carrying employees have come and gone after tapping the company's resources and moving on, using us as a stepping stone for their own "goals" and having kept in touch with them, they're not doing any better than if they had stayed. Those that stay, are rewarded.

PSU make Duke look nice.


To each his own I guess, but I loved it there and still go back at least once a year. I never get the trip offers you describe either.

And I don't know your relationship with them, but cabin46.com has a Nike swoosh on the front page of the site. Sponsorship pays a lot of bills in a lot of places.
 
2011-09-27 08:34:35 AM

Benjimin_Dover: Computer Support Specialist - Annual Average Earning Potential: $49,930*

#1. The article isn't an article, it's a commercial ad for certificate mills.
#2. The one fact above tells me the rest is suspect. I'm in IT, and while it may be plausible for somebody dropping workstations on desks to be making that salary in a high cost of living area, it definately ain't going to be the average.


Really? I live in the midwest, and that is just a little bit low for what I would call level 2 support (touching workstations). Where do you live?

You want an excellent paying job that does not require a degree? Healthcare or (EMR) IT, people. research it. You will be glad you did,

/certified in adt/cadence and prelude
//seriously. Google it.
 
2011-09-27 08:49:53 AM
*ADT/Prelude and Cadence.

FTFM
 
2011-09-27 10:08:33 AM

Rent Party: davidab: FTFA - Career Change Option #2: Paralegal
Are you interested in a law career, but want to avoid the four-year bachelor's degree and three years in law school? Good news...

Forget paralegal, go for lawyer! Last I knew all that was required to be a lawyer in CA was to pass the BAR (high school diploma may or may not have been required). Now granted most people would need 5-7 years of education to pass the BAR but hey, details right?

One of the pre-reqs for taking the bar is either a degree from an accredited law school, or an equivlant time clerking for a judge. You can't just roll in and take the exam.


how long has it been like that? I am pretty sure it was not that way 40 years ago
 
2011-09-27 10:41:37 AM
Funny how in a country where everyone is complaining about unemployment, nobody has any talent or employable skills anymore in the first place.
 
2011-09-27 11:15:06 AM
Aw crap. I missed this thread working at my job that requires a degree.
 
2011-09-27 11:17:42 AM
#7 Stripper
 
2011-09-27 12:34:28 PM

Angry_Monkey: Retirement? The extra money I make in I.T. that goes into retirement vehicles is better that the pension. (University instructors are allowed to opt out of the pension and place their money into different plans. Almost every one does. Why is that?)

So outside of a pension (which is seemingly overvalued by those who don't know about it,) and healthcare (which is comparable to insurance in the industry,) what exactly are these tremendous benefits that I missed out on?


You're full of shiat. You're either making up everything, or you have absolutely no grasp of money, which is not a surprise, because IT people can barely stick two quarters together without their heads exploding.
 
2011-09-27 01:28:05 PM

Angry_Monkey: You worked 10.5 hours today? I highly doubt that. You have 5 unique posts during the time you claimed to 'work.' (In the 7, 8, 9, 11, and 1 O'Clock hours.) That's just one thread on one site. Workin' hard or hardly workin'? (Not that I mind, I know that happens a lot in I.T. related fields, just don't pretend that you put in 10.5 hours while constantly wiping the sweat from your brow.) So, no, I don't buy that 2409 hour number at all. It magically appeared after you were called on it. As for your 'friend', if he isn't from Canada and would be unknown to any/everyone, let me guess...P.E. teacher. Yep, they get it easy, no doubt. Same pay and little to no work outside of normal school hours (if they don't get a book class.)


Not to jump into this fracas, but after you get to a certain level in IT (my old company called it 3rd level) You are more paid to be available than you are to actually be busy. That's for the little guys. You're there to make sure nothing breaks. The more you sit around, the better you're doing.
 
2011-09-27 02:09:38 PM

Angry_Monkey: debug:
If you're off for 3 months of the year, that's 25%. I worked 2409 hours last year, so yeah, I think I work more hours then most teachers. I'll pass that number this year (just now getting home from work, 5pm to 3:30am today). My best friend is a middle school teacher and I can tell you he does nothing even remotely work related in the summer time and is not putting in 10 hour days.

Yes, after $1500 the employee pays. Do you get everything free up to that $1500? I don't. I have co-pays. I'm sure you are also aware that it is not a normal practice for a company to buy back unused vacation or sick time, so please don't try to act like that's a standard practice if your company does that.

I didn't add the space.

You worked 10.5 hours today? I highly doubt that. You have 5 unique posts during the time you claimed to 'work.' (In the 7, 8, 9, 11, and 1 O'Clock hours.) That's just one thread on one site. Workin' hard or hardly workin'? (Not that I mind, I know that happens a lot in I.T. related fields, just don't pretend that you put in 10.5 hours while constantly wiping the sweat from your brow.) So, no, I don't buy that 2409 hour number at all. It magically appeared after you were called on it. As for your 'friend', if he isn't from Canada and would be unknown to any/everyone, let me guess...P.E. teacher. Yep, they get it easy, no doubt. Same pay and little to no work outside of normal school hours (if they don't get a book class.)

Since you want to go back to percentages to support your non-existent argument I can only assume you are being obtuse to be obtuse.

I also have co-pays. Nice try though to try to cover another weak point. Dental co-pays, which for most people amount to two visits yearly. If you have *one* crown done your insurance is up for the year. You base this miracle insurance on the *possibility* of a difference of $20-$50 a year. You also realize that after the $1500 cap is reached, co-pays are not relevant. Of course you do.

Buy back of vacation and sick days is a common, though not universal, practice. Sounds like you work at a bad company.

Of course you didn't add the space. I'm just saying someone in the I.T. industry, especially in QA, would have done minimal testing to make sure something so trivial was correct. Perhaps correcting it, or at least stating how to correct it if the website was not being cooperative. What do you do again?


I don't really care if you believe me about my hours for last year or last night. Do you really think it's difficult to make a few message board posts while at work.

I'm sorry, I generally don't do QA testing, trivial or otherwise, on message board posts. It's just not that important.

What do I do? I'm an inspector. Mostly, I watch lab techs to make sure they are doing what they are supposed to do. I left QA in 2007 because it's a horrible occupation.

My sister is the only person I know personally that has ever worked at a company that would buy back vacation or sick time and she worked for a hospital. It's really much less common then you think.
 
2011-09-27 02:44:26 PM

Madbassist1: Benjimin_Dover: Computer Support Specialist - Annual Average Earning Potential: $49,930*

#1. The article isn't an article, it's a commercial ad for certificate mills.
#2. The one fact above tells me the rest is suspect. I'm in IT, and while it may be plausible for somebody dropping workstations on desks to be making that salary in a high cost of living area, it definately ain't going to be the average.

Really? I live in the midwest, and that is just a little bit low for what I would call level 2 support (touching workstations). Where do you live?

You want an excellent paying job that does not require a degree? Healthcare or (EMR) IT, people. research it. You will be glad you did,

/certified in adt/cadence and prelude
//seriously. Google it.


Rochester, NY.
 
2011-09-27 03:10:34 PM

Benjimin_Dover: Madbassist1: Benjimin_Dover: Computer Support Specialist - Annual Average Earning Potential: $49,930*

#1. The article isn't an article, it's a commercial ad for certificate mills.
#2. The one fact above tells me the rest is suspect. I'm in IT, and while it may be plausible for somebody dropping workstations on desks to be making that salary in a high cost of living area, it definately ain't going to be the average.

Really? I live in the midwest, and that is just a little bit low for what I would call level 2 support (touching workstations). Where do you live?

You want an excellent paying job that does not require a degree? Healthcare or (EMR) IT, people. research it. You will be glad you did,

/certified in adt/cadence and prelude
//seriously. Google it.

Rochester, NY.


I would think you would make more there. I guess not.
 
2011-09-27 07:56:44 PM

Madbassist1: You want an excellent paying job that does not require a degree? Healthcare or (EMR) IT, people. research it. You will be glad you did,

/certified in adt/cadence and prelude
//seriously. Google it.


Epic won't hire without a college degree (at least not for the core development, implementation, and support roles) but yeah, if you can find a customer/consulting firm willing to pay for your certifications, the job opportunities, especially for the next two or three years, are going to be stellar. Even after the wave of stimulus-related sales ebbs, I don't see the job market being saturated; it's pretty niche and growing.
 
2011-09-27 09:22:37 PM

Madbassist1: Benjimin_Dover: Madbassist1: Benjimin_Dover: Computer Support Specialist - Annual Average Earning Potential: $49,930*

#1. The article isn't an article, it's a commercial ad for certificate mills.
#2. The one fact above tells me the rest is suspect. I'm in IT, and while it may be plausible for somebody dropping workstations on desks to be making that salary in a high cost of living area, it definately ain't going to be the average.

Really? I live in the midwest, and that is just a little bit low for what I would call level 2 support (touching workstations). Where do you live?

You want an excellent paying job that does not require a degree? Healthcare or (EMR) IT, people. research it. You will be glad you did,

/certified in adt/cadence and prelude
//seriously. Google it.

Rochester, NY.

I would think you would make more there. I guess not.


Nobody I know in that position around here makes that. Not in my company, the big former copier company across the street, the big former camera company, or the company I used to work for that invented Univac. I have looked at those salary.com type of websites, and I truely don't know where they get their figures.

Hell, our HR did a salary survey on the position I am in now, and they came up with almost $70,000.

/not making 70 large
 
2011-09-28 09:45:17 AM

Madbassist1: Angry_Monkey: You worked 10.5 hours today? I highly doubt that. You have 5 unique posts during the time you claimed to 'work.' (In the 7, 8, 9, 11, and 1 O'Clock hours.) That's just one thread on one site. Workin' hard or hardly workin'? (Not that I mind, I know that happens a lot in I.T. related fields, just don't pretend that you put in 10.5 hours while constantly wiping the sweat from your brow.) So, no, I don't buy that 2409 hour number at all. It magically appeared after you were called on it. As for your 'friend', if he isn't from Canada and would be unknown to any/everyone, let me guess...P.E. teacher. Yep, they get it easy, no doubt. Same pay and little to no work outside of normal school hours (if they don't get a book class.)

Not to jump into this fracas, but after you get to a certain level in IT (my old company called it 3rd level) You are more paid to be available than you are to actually be busy. That's for the little guys. You're there to make sure nothing breaks. The more you sit around, the better you're doing.


Yup that's me now, and I work for a school district.sometimes it's awesome, sometimes it sucks.

Teachers have to be at school before class starts @ 8, I have to be there at 7. Teachers can leave at 3:15 I'm there until 4 (but I have staff in until 5).

Teachers get two hours to "prep"so they don't have to work at home, I have to wait until 5 to start any network or server work that will disrupt service.

Teachers get june and july off as well as two weeks for christmas,i get to do infrastructure upgrades.

But from about 9-3 every day all I really have to do is keep various VNC windows open to make sure that servers aren't crashed and make sure that my help desk personnel are responding to tickets. Teachers have to deal with children.
 
2011-09-28 01:40:16 PM

Sum Dum Gai: Madbassist1: You want an excellent paying job that does not require a degree? Healthcare or (EMR) IT, people. research it. You will be glad you did,

/certified in adt/cadence and prelude
//seriously. Google it.

Epic won't hire without a college degree (at least not for the core development, implementation, and support roles) but yeah, if you can find a customer/consulting firm willing to pay for your certifications, the job opportunities, especially for the next two or three years, are going to be stellar. Even after the wave of stimulus-related sales ebbs, I don't see the job market being saturated; it's pretty niche and growing.


Yeah I don't work for Epic. They're weird (seriously, the whole place has a 'cult' feel to it. It's creepy.), but I am certified in their modules, and you are right, there is NO shortage of people wanting my services.
 
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