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(AP)   Apparently sometime in the past ten years the NYPD added anti-aircraft missiles to its arsenal   (hosted.ap.org) divider line 194
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14135 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Sep 2011 at 5:30 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-09-26 10:34:48 AM
Welcome to the future.
 
2011-09-26 10:35:22 AM

Eshkar: ha-ha-guy: Sid_6.7: stolenlogin: or they could just scrabble some F-16's. I assure you they can do that much quicker than they can get a drone in the air

They could probably loiter drones in the airspace for a long time for the cost of keeping F-16's ready to scramble on the ground.

The big issue is every so often the drone's go unresponsive and they have to send a jet up to shoot them down. I've heard a couple USAF pilots piss and moan about the only thing they shot in Afghanistan were Predators that blue screened. The drones would be cheaper, but the general populace would freak out when we had to send someone up to splash the defective ones.

Hmph... they fly drones down here in Louisiana all the time. The national guard and the state police work together in using them. For a while they were using some sort of drones over the I-10 Atchafalaya bridge to clock speeders (the 14th longest bridge in the world); well that is what they claimed but they made a lot of pot bust during that time period, I think they were using thermal imagining to find the drug runners. I don't see why the NYPD and the New York National guard may not have a deal where they have access to a predator drone armed to take down a plane; I don't see why everyone is assuming the guy is referring to anti aircraft missiles.


preditors are armed with helfires or bombs usually, thats ground strike stuff.. MANPADS and other anti-aircraft stuff will remain under military or National Guard control. Nobody wants to drop a plane over a crouded city even if its totally a justified act. The chances of a mistake are much higher. I don't see the NYPD getting their own anti-air capabilty.

Now, with air crew doors being locked and a lot sturdier than they used to be, I'll bet pilots are likely instructed to get that plane on the ground ASAP. Then, disable the flight computers somehow and escape out the cockpit window. At all costs keep that plane on the ground. Passangers and air crew in the back are basically farked until the hostage rescue team arrives because its not getting back in the air no matter how many people the terrorists shoot. This is pure spec on my part
 
2011-09-26 10:35:23 AM

NewportBarGuy: b2theory: Unless they also bought an integrated air defense system, a couple stingers aren't going to help much.

[i51.tinypic.com image 324x220]

Buy 10, get one free!


Those ZSU-23 are farking deadly
 
2011-09-26 10:43:53 AM
FTFA: "The chief of the New York Police Department says city police could take down a plane if necessary......
Other measures include sending NYPD officers abroad, using radiation detectors and creating a network of surveillance cameras in Manhattan."



has anybody pointed out yet that none of these things would have prevented 9/11?
 
2011-09-26 10:47:54 AM
www.harrystone.net
 
2011-09-26 10:49:22 AM
Didn't a bunch of SAMs went missing in Libya?

Maybe the NYPD had somebody in Libya.
 
2011-09-26 10:52:42 AM
It's totally ridiculous, how much money the government will waste attempting to be the end, rather than the means to an end. All this money to avoid simply allowing individuals to arm their selves and be in control of their own destinies.
 
2011-09-26 10:53:54 AM
Mu guess is that there is now a permanent anti-aircraft installation somewhere in NYC manned by the military that the NYPD has at their disposal - within reason. You haven't heard about it because it's classified, for good reason. The chief made his point without really revealing anything classified, just saying that the NYPD could do it. He didn't say WHO would do it.
 
2011-09-26 10:54:25 AM

Awesome T-Shirt: Uncle Wiggly: Well, NYFD has those little boats with those little squirter things.

Wanna know how I know you don't live anywhere near NY?


Sorry. It's a joke. I had model FDNY fireboats when I was kid; they were awesome. I'm just farking with fire guys.
 
2011-09-26 10:54:56 AM

AbbeySomeone: NewportBarGuy: Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.

They're letting alcoholics handle missiles? Live and let live?


Alcoholics are the last people i would expect to voluntarily stop shooting at the enemy across no-man's land. More like live and let the bodies hit the floor.
 
2011-09-26 11:03:18 AM
Okay, let's compare. NYC sets up it's own defense network complete with Anti Aircraft systems because the Fed isn't enough. That's Fed territory in defending the nation. Let's carry that logic to Immigration Enforcement, another responsibility designated to the Fed. States should be able to enforce illegal immigration too. Same reasons, the Fed isn't enough.

Consistency, how does it work.
 
2011-09-26 11:06:14 AM

crazytrpr: Eshkar: ha-ha-guy: Sid_6.7: stolenlogin: or they could just scrabble some F-16's. I assure you they can do that much quicker than they can get a drone in the air

They could probably loiter drones in the airspace for a long time for the cost of keeping F-16's ready to scramble on the ground.

The big issue is every so often the drone's go unresponsive and they have to send a jet up to shoot them down. I've heard a couple USAF pilots piss and moan about the only thing they shot in Afghanistan were Predators that blue screened. The drones would be cheaper, but the general populace would freak out when we had to send someone up to splash the defective ones.

Hmph... they fly drones down here in Louisiana all the time. The national guard and the state police work together in using them. For a while they were using some sort of drones over the I-10 Atchafalaya bridge to clock speeders (the 14th longest bridge in the world); well that is what they claimed but they made a lot of pot bust during that time period, I think they were using thermal imagining to find the drug runners. I don't see why the NYPD and the New York National guard may not have a deal where they have access to a predator drone armed to take down a plane; I don't see why everyone is assuming the guy is referring to anti aircraft missiles.

preditors are armed with helfires or bombs usually, thats ground strike stuff.. MANPADS and other anti-aircraft stuff will remain under military or National Guard control. Nobody wants to drop a plane over a crouded city even if its totally a justified act. The chances of a mistake are much higher. I don't see the NYPD getting their own anti-air capabilty.

Now, with air crew doors being locked and a lot sturdier than they used to be, I'll bet pilots are likely instructed to get that plane on the ground ASAP. Then, disable the flight computers somehow and escape out the cockpit window. At all costs keep that plane on the ground. Passangers and air crew in the back are basically farked until the hostage rescue team arrives because its not getting back in the air no matter how many people the terrorists shoot. This is pure spec on my part


While shooting down a plane over New York City would be horrible, the no fly zone around the city has been increased which would increase the likely hood of being able to down the plane before it entered the city and minimizing causalities. While again horrible it is still an option... hence the reason the guy tfa mentioned their capabilities. Now I shouldn't have used 'predator' so generically, If you want specifics I should have said that they could be referring to using Reaper drones armed with AIM-92 stingers from the New York Air National Guard's 174th fighter wing.
 
2011-09-26 11:14:23 AM

Eshkar:
While shooting down a plane over New York City would be horrible, the no fly zone around the city has been increased which would increase the likely hood of being able to down the plane before it entered the city and minimizing causalities. While again horrible it is still an option... hence the reason the guy tfa mentioned their capabilities. Now I shouldn't have used 'predator' so generically, If you want specifics I should have said that they could be referring to using Reaper drones armed with AIM-92 stingers from the New York Air National Guard's 174th fighter wing.


Depends on the direction of the attack. Northern Jersey is densely populated with nothing but guidos, trashpits, and the like (which, oddly enough, are fairly indistinguishable from each other). As such, unless it's over the water, they're likely to hit someone.
 
2011-09-26 11:15:24 AM
My best friend was seconded out of his unit to the Anti-Terrorism Task Force covering the NYC area. This was pre-9/11

He said the capabilities then were mind blowing what the Feds and the NYC police could put in action if they needed to (including scalar EM weapons), but that the real difficulty lay in nanny-pants spineless dickwads for public officials who could fark up a trip to the toilet let alone make a command decision about which truck to gas up.

After three years and seeing a little action that never made the News, he begged to go back to hostile territories and shoot some bad guys.

He was totally disgusted by civilian 'authorities'.
 
2011-09-26 11:22:40 AM

GaryPDX: Okay, let's compare. NYC sets up it's own defense network complete with Anti Aircraft systems because the Fed isn't enough. That's Fed territory in defending the nation. Let's carry that logic to Immigration Enforcement, another responsibility designated to the Fed. States should be able to enforce illegal immigration too. Same reasons, the Fed isn't enough.

Consistency, how does it work.


i52.tinypic.com

You'll start to see me tearing things down. Speeches tonight are canceled. Unless the insult's cured by tomorrow, there'll be further tearing down. F*ck the f*cking elections, and f*ck the agreement with Yankton. Let the camp return to its former repute: unstable and unsafe for commerce.
 
2011-09-26 11:24:44 AM

Scorpio Rex: dittybopper: In the US, the homicide rate is about 6.1 per 100,000 overall. If you just include "European Americans", who by the way are the most likely to legally own guns, the rate is actually just 2.7 per 100,000

Why don't you quit tip-toeing around and say what you really mean: "it's the blacks."

I'm not sure what that has to do with a commissioner of a civilian police department making terroristic threats, though.


Did he really just divide America up into "whites", "polacks" and "darkies" in order to triumphantly assert that America has a lower murder rate than them thar Yurpeans?
 
2011-09-26 12:02:23 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: The military for when we want to declare war on others.
The police for when we want to declare war *on ourselves*.


I would much rather face the police than the military. The toys may be similar but the training is not.
 
2011-09-26 12:10:57 PM

Crosshair: The LA shootout would have ended quickly had officers been issued slugs for their shotguns (Wouldn't have penetrated the kevlar, but would have killed via blunt force trauma.)


False. If that were true, then placing the butt of a shotgun on your chest and pulling the trigger would also be deadly, which it obviously isn't. A vest helps to spread out and distribute the energy. You end up with a wicked bruise, but 99.99% of the time you aren't going to die from the trauma.

, a mini-14, or even a bolt action 223 rifle would have done the job.


Actually, a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, or a similar .30 caliber level gun, would have stopped them by penetrating the vests. Any caliber commonly used for hunting deer, which is a man-sized animal, would have been fine.
 
2011-09-26 12:17:41 PM

Eshkar: While shooting down a plane over New York City would be horrible, the no fly zone around the city has been increased which would increase the likely hood of being able to down the plane before it entered the city and minimizing causalities.


What no-fly zone? It's not on the sectional chart.
 
2011-09-26 01:32:04 PM

dittybopper: Crosshair: The LA shootout would have ended quickly had officers been issued slugs for their shotguns (Wouldn't have penetrated the kevlar, but would have killed via blunt force trauma.)


Wouldn't that be a bit of a bad comparison? The butt of the shotgun is much larger than the slug, so the actual impact would be spread out much better. Armor plates would make that pretty accurate, but maybe not with Kevlar? More of a discussion than a disagreement.

Actually, a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, or a similar .30 caliber level gun, would have stopped them by penetrating the vests. Any caliber commonly used for hunting deer, which is a man-sized animal, would have been fine.

It's odd how many people don't seem to realize that hunting rifles are more powerful and generally more accurate than run of the mill military ones.
 
2011-09-26 01:57:12 PM

ronaprhys: dittybopper: Crosshair: The LA shootout would have ended quickly had officers been issued slugs for their shotguns (Wouldn't have penetrated the kevlar, but would have killed via blunt force trauma.)

Wouldn't that be a bit of a bad comparison? The butt of the shotgun is much larger than the slug, so the actual impact would be spread out much better. Armor plates would make that pretty accurate, but maybe not with Kevlar? More of a discussion than a disagreement.


I'd be willing to put a "knob" the same diameter as a slug on the butt of a shotgun, hold it to my chest, and fire it. I'm sure it would hurt like a sonofabeech, and leave a nice bruise. Might even crack a rib or something, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't die from the blunt trauma.

Oh, and those guys in the North Hollywood shootout actually did have trauma plates anyway.

To put it another way, consider this: A 12 gauge slug has a frontal area of Pi*.752= 1.77 square inches. A typical butt on a shotgun might have an actual area of contact with your shoulder of 4 or 5 inches tall by 1 to 2 inches wide, depending on the shape, style, and your physique. That gives a contact area of between 4 and 10 square inches, so the blunt trauma would be deadly at forces only 2.26 to 5.65 times what you feel every time you shoot? You'd be dislocating your shoulder all the time, causing all kinds of damage.


Actually, a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, or a similar .30 caliber level gun, would have stopped them by penetrating the vests. Any caliber commonly used for hunting deer, which is a man-sized animal, would have been fine.

It's odd how many people don't seem to realize that hunting rifles are more powerful and generally more accurate than run of the mill military ones.


Actually, the line is blurring somewhat. It's not all that uncommon anymore to see an SKS used as a deer rifle. In some areas, it's replacing the lever action .30-30 as the brush/swamp/dense woods short range deer rifle.
 
2011-09-26 02:40:07 PM
I'm wondering if the force felt would go down by the square there. Not sure on the physics, so i could be wrong.
 
2011-09-26 02:49:17 PM
I'm personally surprised they aren't already flying the 24x7 surveillance blimps over New York.
I wonder if they could stage a reaper on one of the big ones?
 
2011-09-26 02:53:23 PM

ronaprhys: I'm wondering if the force felt would go down by the square there. Not sure on the physics, so i could be wrong.


Well, we can figure it out. That's the nice thing about guns, it's pure physics.

A shotgun slug has about 2300 ft/lbs of energy spread out on an area of 1.77 square inches, so that's about 1300 ft/lbs per square inch. The gun recoiling backwards has the same energy as the slug going forward, but it spreads it out among 4 to 10 square inches, so you get something like 230 to 575 ft/lbs per square inch hitting your shoulder. If it was all pointy, like a bullet, it would go in ya.
 
2011-09-26 03:10:09 PM
*headdesk*

No. You do not need this. No, no, no. You DO NOT NEED A SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILE. For ANY reason.
 
2011-09-26 03:10:10 PM

dittybopper: ronaprhys: I'm wondering if the force felt would go down by the square there. Not sure on the physics, so i could be wrong.

Well, we can figure it out. That's the nice thing about guns, it's pure physics.

A shotgun slug has about 2300 ft/lbs of energy spread out on an area of 1.77 square inches, so that's about 1300 ft/lbs per square inch. The gun recoiling backwards has the same energy as the slug going forward, but it spreads it out among 4 to 10 square inches, so you get something like 230 to 575 ft/lbs per square inch hitting your shoulder. If it was all pointy, like a bullet, it would go in ya.


Well done. I'm stuck on a conference call with a whiner, so I have to pay attention enough to not play with math.

BTW, thinking about it now, force going down with the square of the distance - not with the spread of the area.

Agreed - pointy things and such like go right into you.

Side note, I rather enjoy my SKS (since you mentioned them).
 
2011-09-26 03:25:04 PM

PsiChick: *headdesk*

No. You do not need this. No, no, no. You DO NOT NEED A SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILE. For ANY reason.


Why do you hate America?
 
2011-09-26 04:38:59 PM

dittybopper: False. If that were true, then placing the butt of a shotgun on your chest and pulling the trigger would also be deadly, which it obviously isn't.


A 12 gauge slug is .729" in diameter while the surface area of the recoil pad is many times larger than that. I DARE you to take something like a length of 3/4" wooden dowel, fasten it securely to the stock of the shotgun, place it hard against your chest and pull the trigger. You'll be in the ER having your broken ribs patched up.

A vest helps to spread out and distribute the energy. You end up with a wicked bruise, but 99.99% of the time you aren't going to die from the trauma.

Which is what the stock of the gun does too and what you missed in your post.

Also, a shotgun slug builds up most of its velocity over the first 12" of the shotgun barrel. A vest has to stop the bullet in less than a third the distance. Having your chest caved in 4" by a one ounce hunk of metal is gonna greatly impair your ability to fight.

Even 9mm and 40 S&W impacts break ribs, a 12 gauge slug will shatter several ribs and cause internal bleeding. A head-shot with a 12 gauge slug, which would have been a rather simple task had they had them in LA, would have killed, Kevlar or not.
 
2011-09-26 04:51:05 PM

Crosshair: Also, a shotgun slug builds up most of its velocity over the first 12" of the shotgun barrel. A vest has to stop the bullet in less than a third the distance. Having your chest caved in 4" by a one ounce hunk of metal is gonna greatly impair your ability to fight.


It's gonna leave a mark, but probably won't immediately put the target down. Here's your real world proof.

Deputy sheriff took 12 gauge slug to the chest area at near point-blank range. Didn't stop him from returning fire and making the arrest, but it did put him in the hospital for a bit.

Link (new window)

Link (new window)
 
2011-09-26 06:19:10 PM

Crosshair: Which is what the stock of the gun does too and what you missed in your post.


Having the stock hard into your shoulder helps a lot, too. The energy is turned into motion as you're pushed by it, not impact. Hold the butt about an inch from your shoulder. The impact hurts.
 
2011-09-26 06:39:52 PM
ahhh, so they must have been the ones who shot down twa flight 800!
 
2011-09-26 06:52:49 PM

JustGetItRight: JagYui: To be fair, there are such things as MANPADs (not a male equivalent to a feminine hygiene product). So they could have some SA-7's bought on the black market or something.

Ignoring the whole absurdity of the NYPD buying missiles on the black market...


Why would you ignore the entire point of my post, the fact that this is absurd? Also, it is possible (not probable) to bring down a commercial aircraft with a MANPAD, especially if you're using HE frag warheads. Of course, it would require that the plane be flying low to the ground, but if the pilot is planning on hitting a building, he would have to be within vertical range of a MANPAD. Again, this is not at all probable, but the capability exists, which is all the guy in TFA was saying.

As it stands, yes, my post is dry humor commenting on the unlikelihood anything said in this article is true. It's more likely just to promote a false sense of security in a city that's impossible to make secure.
 
2011-09-26 06:58:37 PM

PsiChick: *headdesk*

No. You do not need this. No, no, no. You DO NOT NEED A SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILE. For ANY reason.


Radical Islamic African swallows with jihad coconuts. We need to be able to shoot them down
 
2011-09-26 07:23:53 PM
To repeat, Commish Kelly is just referring to a .50 cal rifle mounted on a chopper.
 
2011-09-26 07:25:05 PM
They probably have an iPhone and a directional antenna.
 
2011-09-26 07:28:55 PM
nods in agreement

meetinthelobby.com
 
2011-09-26 07:57:20 PM

Sid_6.7: HAMMERTOE: In the wake of 9-11, who have they treated like the enemy? A TSA agent pretty much has to overtly and egregiously feel up a toddler before attention is given to the gross overreaction of the system. Meanwhile, those who make the rules create special exemptions for their selves.

The real problem is that people love complaining. If you don't have a police force equipped to take down a suspect who has body armor and an assault rifle (new window), while all they have are handguns and shotguns, then they're incompetent and stupid.

If they invest in the required tools, training, etc. to be able to respond to extreme threats, then suddenly they're an evil military force.

And people will whine and biatch and moan either way. Even if you go out of your way to try and find a happy medium, people will complain.


The trouble with a standing army, as has been known for over 200 years, is that if you have it you have to use it. Too many major cities use their SWAT teams for everything except collecting parking tickets. Police Departments such as NYC's have effectively become armies with troops answerable to no one but the local ruler and immune from the laws that they enforce against the serfs.
 
2011-09-26 08:02:46 PM

SharkTrager: Tymast: badhatharry: I saw that segment on 60 minutes. New York City is so proud of it's incredible security systems. All I could think was that New York City has become an Orwellian nightmare.

Right, i suppose you have another way to deal with terrorists? They do hate us for our freedom after all.

I'm curious. Do you really believe we are seriously threatened by terrorists to a degree that justifies tracking the movements of every citizen of the largest city in the nation, which is precisely what they showed they are capable of doing.



I'll answer that: NFW
 
2011-09-26 09:21:26 PM

dittybopper: Actually, a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, or a similar .30 caliber level gun, would have stopped them by penetrating the vests. Any caliber commonly used for hunting deer, which is a man-sized animal, would have been fine.


You know, there's a reason you show up highlighted in a nice green; you can always be counted on for logic, reason and "common" sense.

What the fark are you doing on Fark?

/ As someone who lived in the area during that clusterfark, everything about it, from LAPD's mishandling to the media's misreporting was a sick joke.
// I still ain't laughing.
 
2011-09-26 09:46:41 PM

Sgt.Zim: dittybopper: Actually, a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, or a similar .30 caliber level gun, would have stopped them by penetrating the vests. Any caliber commonly used for hunting deer, which is a man-sized animal, would have been fine.

You know, there's a reason you show up highlighted in a nice green; you can always be counted on for logic, reason and "common" sense.

What the fark are you doing on Fark?


Just farking around. I promised never to use my powers for personal gain.
 
2011-09-26 09:51:35 PM

eas81: Hell Santrini air has to be somewhere around there?


Castillo from Miami Vice had his own airwolf in 1986...

www.abnormal.com
 
2011-09-26 11:42:17 PM
.00001% of Americans died on 9/11, really it's time for us to move on.
 
2011-09-27 06:33:12 PM
It doesn't explicitly say they got missiles. What if they got access to a Phalanx weapon system instead? That would be pretty awesome.
 
2011-09-28 09:26:20 PM

Uncle Wiggly: Awesome T-Shirt: Uncle Wiggly: Well, NYFD has those little boats with those little squirter things.

Wanna know how I know you don't live anywhere near NY?

Sorry. It's a joke. I had model FDNY fireboats when I was kid; they were awesome. I'm just farking with fire guys.


Don't do it again. You may give one of them a heart attack.
 
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