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(AP)   Apparently sometime in the past ten years the NYPD added anti-aircraft missiles to its arsenal   (hosted.ap.org) divider line 193
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14134 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Sep 2011 at 5:30 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



193 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread
 
2011-09-25 08:38:57 PM
$20 says he thinks he can do it with a .50 cal sniper rifle.
 
2011-09-25 08:53:22 PM
Well, NYFD has those little boats with those little squirter things.
 
2011-09-25 09:01:31 PM
Giant taser.
 
2011-09-25 09:03:48 PM
Inflatable World Trade Center.
 
2011-09-25 09:09:56 PM

NewportBarGuy: $20 says he thinks he can do it with a .50 cal sniper rifle.


Someone doesn't know how much time and effort it takes to deploy a sniper team effectively.
 
2011-09-25 09:11:29 PM
Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.
 
2011-09-25 09:17:39 PM
Spike strips attached to balloons.
 
2011-09-25 09:19:52 PM
I don't believe him.
 
2011-09-25 09:25:35 PM

Uncle Wiggly: Well, NYFD has those little boats with those little squirter things.


Just had this horrible vision of an NYPD gatling gun firing toilet plungers at an errant Cessna....
 
2011-09-25 09:28:14 PM

Relatively Obscure: Spike strips attached to balloons.


That got a snort.

+1
 
2011-09-25 10:03:53 PM
Unless they also bought an integrated air defense system, a couple stingers aren't going to help much.
 
2011-09-25 10:07:04 PM

Relatively Obscure: Spike strips attached to balloons.



That or the airborne "pit maneuver"
 
2011-09-25 10:13:11 PM
"Cory Lidle, a pitcher for the New York Yankees, was killed today when his small private plane crashed into a residential high-rise building on New York City's Upper East Side, igniting several apartments before pieces of the aircraft crashed to the ground, a high-ranking city official confirmed late this afternoon." (October 11, 2006, NY Times)

... maybe everything on the Intrepid still works: http://www.intrepidmuseum.org/
 
2011-09-25 10:14:18 PM
Fly a police helicopter into it?
 
2011-09-25 10:15:10 PM

b2theory: Unless they also bought an integrated air defense system, a couple stingers aren't going to help much.


i51.tinypic.com

Buy 10, get one free!
 
2011-09-25 10:35:28 PM

Amos Quito: Relatively Obscure: Spike strips attached to balloons.


That or the airborne "pit maneuver"


the brits kind of did that to V1s in WWII Link (new window)

//I knight myself sir buzz killington
 
2011-09-25 10:44:15 PM
Duh. They needed a back-up plan to make sure 9/11 went off as planned.
 
2011-09-25 11:17:18 PM
Assuming they actually have something, I wonder what the range is. Shooting a plane down over NYC might be as bad or worse than letting it crash.
 
2011-09-25 11:29:54 PM

zedster: Amos Quito: Relatively Obscure: Spike strips attached to balloons.


That or the airborne "pit maneuver"

the brits kind of did that to V1s in WWII Link (new window)

//I knight myself sir buzz killington



From your link:

upload.wikimedia.org

"A Spitfire using its wingtip to "topple" a V-1 flying bomb"


Necessity is the mother.
 
2011-09-25 11:31:58 PM

Mmmrky: Assuming they actually have something, I wonder what the range is. Shooting a plane down over NYC might be as bad or worse than letting it crash.



Damn right.

Except for the "hero factor", o'course.

/Politics FTW
 
2011-09-25 11:32:20 PM

NewportBarGuy: Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.


I can take down some names if that will help.
 
2011-09-26 12:47:12 AM

Relatively Obscure: Spike strips attached to balloons.


It's been done (more or less).
 
2011-09-26 12:51:28 AM
So......more WTCs? They seemed to take out those other planes.
 
2011-09-26 12:53:28 AM
I thought this was part of the series the AP has been doing on the links between the NYPD and the CIA and the ethnic/religious profiling. I was wondering why I hadn't seen any of their articles greened on Fark. Oh well...
 
2011-09-26 01:44:37 AM
Maybe they're going to install some giant mirrors on skyscraper rooftops to make some kind of city-wide, Archimedes heat ray?

Planes don't fly at night, right?
 
2011-09-26 02:26:31 AM

penthesilea: So......more WTCs? They seemed to take out those other planes.


+1 you win many internets, even some arpanets and some fish nets
 
2011-09-26 03:11:16 AM
Are they planning to shoot down a plane over New York City?
 
2011-09-26 04:16:48 AM
One of those laser pointer thingies?
 
2011-09-26 04:46:54 AM
Had I had advance knowledge of 9/11, and had a ground to air missile, I wouldn't be known as the hero who saved all those people at the World Trade Center.

I would be remembered as that asshole who shot down that plane, and killed all those people.
 
2011-09-26 04:57:35 AM

NewportBarGuy: Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.


They're letting alcoholics handle missiles? Live and let live?
 
2011-09-26 05:39:41 AM

TommyymmoT: Had I had advance knowledge of 9/11, and had a ground to air missile, I wouldn't be known as the hero who saved all those people at the World Trade Center.

I would be remembered as that asshole who shot down that plane, and killed all those people.


well see if ya only have 1 missile, you shoot down the second plane.
 
2011-09-26 05:39:59 AM

Occam's Chainsaw: Inflatable World Trade Center.


I feel really bad, but I laughed at that.

Relatively Obscure: Spike strips attached to balloons.


As did this. Thanks for the chuckle, guys.
 
2011-09-26 05:41:35 AM
New York, you really need to stop this nonsense if you expect the rest of the country to take you seriously. I know you probably don't care what the rest of the country thinks, but it's kind of hard to maintain that smug sense of superiority when the image you're putting out is a decade of complete and total panic.

/yeah yeah, maybe not "New Yorkers", but the people you elect at any rate, so just stop doing that.
 
2011-09-26 05:43:08 AM
They've had them even longer.

What do you really think happened to TWA 800 (new window). They knew there were aliens terrorists onboard, and shot it down before they became a problem...
 
2011-09-26 05:43:31 AM

Occam's Chainsaw: Inflatable World Trade Center


very nice.
 
2011-09-26 05:44:27 AM

Amos Quito: From your link:

upload.wikimedia.org

"A Spitfire using its wingtip to "topple" a V-1 flying bomb"


Necessity is the mother.


That is awesome.
 
2011-09-26 05:48:34 AM
www.impdb.org

The LAPD is not impressed.
 
2011-09-26 05:49:42 AM
To be fair, there are such things as MANPADs (not a male equivalent to a feminine hygiene product). So they could have some SA-7's bought on the black market or something.
 
2011-09-26 05:50:40 AM

DjangoStonereaver: [www.impdb.org image 500x283]

The LAPD is not impressed.


Heh. I wanted to post that ;)
 
2011-09-26 05:56:37 AM
i bet you could narrow it down to between september 12 and october 30
 
2011-09-26 05:57:55 AM

JagYui: To be fair, there are such things as MANPADs (not a male equivalent to a feminine hygiene product). So they could have some SA-7's bought on the black market or something.


thanks for playing. try again next time.
 
2011-09-26 06:14:11 AM
Because when people think "competent enough to handle surface to air missiles", they think of the NYPD.
 
2011-09-26 06:15:34 AM

AbbeySomeone: NewportBarGuy: Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.

They're letting alcoholics handle missiles? Live and let live?


No. Liver and let liver.
 
2011-09-26 06:18:58 AM

Coming on a Bicycle: AbbeySomeone: NewportBarGuy: Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.

They're letting alcoholics handle missiles? Live and let live?

No. Liver and let liver.


Now I want a glass of chianti...
 
2011-09-26 06:20:10 AM
I am not too sure I am terribly comfortable with a civilian agency having SAMs. I know most major police departments now have helicopters and armored cars, but this seems a bit much.
 
2011-09-26 06:27:15 AM

miss diminutive: Maybe they're going to install some giant mirrors on skyscraper rooftops to make some kind of city-wide, Archimedes heat ray?

Planes don't fly at night, right?


You can shoot down planes with Vigilant Eagle if you modify the targeting software. Sort of like a city-wide Archimedes heat ray.
 
2011-09-26 06:30:50 AM
I see nothing wrong with this.
 
2011-09-26 06:32:01 AM
If i remember correctly, wasn't there an article here on fark a while back about NY and LA getting reaper drones, and everyone flipping out about them spying on citizens?

Seems to me an MQ-9 might have the capability to bring down an airliner. It's not like an airliner has the dexterity of an f-16 or anything... I'm sure the "pilots" could get a missile lock on a 747...
 
2011-09-26 06:38:09 AM

CeroX: Seems to me an MQ-9 might have the capability to bring down an airliner. It's not like an airliner has the dexterity of an f-16 or anything... I'm sure the "pilots" could get a missile lock on a 747...


Especially if it's being flown by some raghead who barely knows how to keep the wings level.
 
2011-09-26 06:48:34 AM
Saw this on 60 minutes before the steelers game.

New York has officially lost it.
 
2011-09-26 06:49:55 AM
So, we have cops with sound cannons, tanks, and now anti aircraft missiles!

I guess the Posse Comitatus becomes pretty moot when the cops are as well armed as the farking army. Let's just give every cop a suitcase nuke while we're at it, just to be super safe!

/it's for your protection, citizen, move along, and don't even think about taking our picture!
 
2011-09-26 06:52:08 AM
It's the geese. Don't you remember the "Miracle on the Hudson"? That was a test.

They have a crack team of highly trained suicide geese.

They tried pigeons, but they aren't large enough. So they tried two pigeons taped together. They couldn't fly fast enough. So geese it is.
 
2011-09-26 06:54:58 AM

CeroX: If i remember correctly, wasn't there an article here on fark a while back about NY and LA getting reaper drones, and everyone flipping out about them spying on citizens?

Seems to me an MQ-9 might have the capability to bring down an airliner. It's not like an airliner has the dexterity of an f-16 or anything... I'm sure the "pilots" could get a missile lock on a 747...


or they could just scrabble some F-16's. I assure you they can do that much quicker than they can get a drone in the air
 
2011-09-26 06:55:35 AM

stolenlogin: CeroX: If i remember correctly, wasn't there an article here on fark a while back about NY and LA getting reaper drones, and everyone flipping out about them spying on citizens?

Seems to me an MQ-9 might have the capability to bring down an airliner. It's not like an airliner has the dexterity of an f-16 or anything... I'm sure the "pilots" could get a missile lock on a 747...

or they could just scrabble some F-16's. I assure you they can do that much quicker than they can get a drone in the air


scramble*
 
2011-09-26 06:56:39 AM

stolenlogin: or they could just scrabble some F-16's. I assure you they can do that much quicker than they can get a drone in the air


They could probably loiter drones in the airspace for a long time for the cost of keeping F-16's ready to scramble on the ground.
 
2011-09-26 06:58:46 AM

Sid_6.7: They tried pigeons, but they aren't large enough. So they tried two pigeons taped together. They couldn't fly fast enough. So geese it is.


I'm grinning WAY too much over that...
 
2011-09-26 06:59:49 AM
Most police departments have been spending their Homeland Security money on armored vehicles and machine guns, If New York bought SAMs, at least they're reacting to an actual past crime and not just scared of their citizens.
 
2011-09-26 07:05:22 AM
I had to scrabble some F-16's once.

My opponent said there's no such thing as number tiles.

He thought he had me beat, until they leveled the building.
 
2011-09-26 07:08:51 AM

HAMMERTOE: I had to scrabble some F-16's once.

My opponent said there's no such thing as number tiles.

He thought he had me beat, until they leveled the building.


I consider Scrabble: Total War to really be the definitive edition of the game.
 
2011-09-26 07:13:57 AM
How is their sub fleet coming along?
 
2011-09-26 07:17:06 AM
All levity aside, what did you expect?

When they declared war on poverty, who did they wage this war against?

When they declared war on drugs, who did they wage this war against?

In the wake of 9-11, who have they treated like the enemy? A TSA agent pretty much has to overtly and egregiously feel up a toddler before attention is given to the gross overreaction of the system. Meanwhile, those who make the rules create special exemptions for their selves.

Local police departments have found it necessary to arm their selves to the point where they now have enough firepower to completely wipe out the population.

Is the fact that they now invest in weapons of mass destruction on a local level really a surprise? If Barney's only gonna get one bullet, he's damn well gonna make sure it's the most lethal one he can get.
 
2011-09-26 07:22:32 AM
I saw that segment on 60 minutes. New York City is so proud of it's incredible security systems. All I could think was that New York City has become an Orwellian nightmare.
 
2011-09-26 07:23:42 AM
Omni Consumer Products, peace through superior firepower
i54.tinypic.com
 
2011-09-26 07:24:45 AM

HAMMERTOE: In the wake of 9-11, who have they treated like the enemy? A TSA agent pretty much has to overtly and egregiously feel up a toddler before attention is given to the gross overreaction of the system. Meanwhile, those who make the rules create special exemptions for their selves.


The real problem is that people love complaining. If you don't have a police force equipped to take down a suspect who has body armor and an assault rifle (new window), while all they have are handguns and shotguns, then they're incompetent and stupid.

If they invest in the required tools, training, etc. to be able to respond to extreme threats, then suddenly they're an evil military force.

And people will whine and biatch and moan either way. Even if you go out of your way to try and find a happy medium, people will complain.
 
2011-09-26 07:24:58 AM
According to MSNBC, the NYPD also has "operatives" stationed in Abu Dhabi, Amman, Montreal, Toronto, Singapore, Paris, and other cities.

This isn't your grandpa's NYPD, with the batons and paddy wagons. They've turned into a CIA offshoot.
 
2011-09-26 07:25:27 AM

badhatharry: I saw that segment on 60 minutes. New York City is so proud of it's incredible security systems. All I could think was that New York City has become an Orwellian nightmare.


Right, i suppose you have another way to deal with terrorists? They do hate us for our freedom after all.
 
2011-09-26 07:26:34 AM

labman: Fly a police helicopter into it?


Came to say this also a small plane as well. Also Fark Fails me really no one rememebers this come on people we have the technology:

www.rotaryaction.com
 
2011-09-26 07:27:48 AM

MickeyRaptor: According to MSNBC, the NYPD also has "operatives" stationed in Abu Dhabi, Amman, Montreal, Toronto, Singapore, Paris, and other cities.


Get those farkers out of my country! We have enough trouble with our own cops, let alone foreign ones that don't have to answer to our public (not that it stops the RCMP or anything)
 
2011-09-26 07:29:27 AM

2wolves: Relatively Obscure: Spike strips attached to balloons.

That got a snort.

+1


Don't laugh. Barrage balloons can be very effective against low-flying aircraft.
 
2011-09-26 07:30:45 AM
Hell Santrini air has to be somewhere around there?

www.helicopterpicture.org
 
2011-09-26 07:31:44 AM
Reminds me of the actions of Idi Amin and Hitler. As long as a government was abusively controlling its own citizens, the rest of the world did not concern themselves.
 
2011-09-26 07:36:08 AM
6655321: Reminds me of the actions of Idi Amin and Hitler. As long as a government was abusively controlling its own citizens, the rest of the world did not concern themselves.

Except the Gestapo is not going out randomly rounding up the Jews, gays, and people who dissent from the party lines.

Well, among other things that are not similar in anyway.

But, yeah. Discounting those flaws in your analogy, the United States is totally like NAADP-run Nazi Germany.
 
2011-09-26 07:37:41 AM

LoneDoggie: How is their sub fleet coming along?


Pretty good: USS Growler Just came out of refit a year or so ago.
 
2011-09-26 07:38:47 AM

hardinparamedic: Discounting those flaws in your analogy, the United States is totally like NAADP-run Nazi Germany.


Black Nazis?
 
2011-09-26 07:39:10 AM
The military for when we want to declare war on others.
The police for when we want to declare war *on ourselves*.

Brb - Swat team in full military gear is now storming my house with a 'no-knock' warrant that was intended for another house.
Bang! There goes the family dog. Or was it my son? I don't know. Let's hope the cop doesn't plant drugs or beat me, otherwise I'll spend the next five years spending my life savings on court fees trying to prove my innocence.

I gotta say, one of the few (very few) positive things I can say about Europe compared to America (as a US citizen, I admit I'm biased); but there is far less tension between police and citizens here. They don't carry guns, much less rocket launchers. And they manage to do a better job of preventing crime.
 
2011-09-26 07:41:33 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: And they manage to do a better job of preventing crime.


You're thinking of the vastly superior social safety net, not the police.
 
2011-09-26 07:41:42 AM
Fark_Guy_Rob: The military for when we want to declare war on others.
The police for when we want to declare war *on ourselves*.

Brb - Swat team in full military gear is now storming my house with a 'no-knock' warrant that was intended for another house.
Bang! There goes the family dog. Or was it my son? I don't know. Let's hope the cop doesn't plant drugs or beat me, otherwise I'll spend the next five years spending my life savings on court fees trying to prove my innocence.

I gotta say, one of the few (very few) positive things I can say about Europe compared to America (as a US citizen, I admit I'm biased); but there is far less tension between police and citizens here. They don't carry guns, much less rocket launchers. And they manage to do a better job of preventing crime.


They also don't generally have an armed populace with military grade assault weaponry.
 
2011-09-26 07:42:11 AM

Sid_6.7: It's the geese. Don't you remember the "Miracle on the Hudson"? That was a test.

They have a crack team of highly trained suicide geese.

They tried pigeons, but they aren't large enough. So they tried two pigeons taped together. They couldn't fly fast enough. So geese it is.


It's been tried with pigeons. (new window)
 
2011-09-26 07:43:24 AM
Well, I feel safer already. Don't you?
 
2011-09-26 07:46:50 AM
Listen to the ostriches in this thread, man.

"Maybe he means X"

Where X = some innocuous thing

Wake up, kiddies, we're living in a police state
 
2011-09-26 07:49:02 AM
This article only contains two references to 9/11 and Sept, 11. It's an outrage that would never have happened on Giuliani's watch.

/needs to be in there at least 5 times
 
2011-09-26 07:58:09 AM

Tymast: badhatharry: I saw that segment on 60 minutes. New York City is so proud of it's incredible security systems. All I could think was that New York City has become an Orwellian nightmare.

Right, i suppose you have another way to deal with terrorists? They do hate us for our freedom after all.


This is not the right way. The US has 15,000 non-terrorist related murders a year. The Joker was right. We have lost our freaking minds.
 
2011-09-26 07:58:40 AM

NewportBarGuy: Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.


I don't think you understand the term 'take down an airplane' as how it's mean to be understood as...

But, standing police militias? This should end well. It's already bad enough most of these large departments have SWAT units; what's next? Police departments buying Army/ Navy surplus Apache helicopters and F/A-18 Hornets?
 
2011-09-26 07:59:56 AM
I'd guess they must have RPGs, and think they can take down a plane with those...
 
2011-09-26 08:00:54 AM
lh5.ggpht.com

Anti-terrorism is no laughing matter.
 
2011-09-26 08:02:38 AM

hardinparamedic: Fark_Guy_Rob: The military for when we want to declare war on others.
The police for when we want to declare war *on ourselves*.

Brb - Swat team in full military gear is now storming my house with a 'no-knock' warrant that was intended for another house.
Bang! There goes the family dog. Or was it my son? I don't know. Let's hope the cop doesn't plant drugs or beat me, otherwise I'll spend the next five years spending my life savings on court fees trying to prove my innocence.

I gotta say, one of the few (very few) positive things I can say about Europe compared to America (as a US citizen, I admit I'm biased); but there is far less tension between police and citizens here. They don't carry guns, much less rocket launchers. And they manage to do a better job of preventing crime.

They also don't generally have an armed populace with military grade assault weaponry.


Actually, they probably have just about as many actual military grade assault weaponry (ie., fully automatic for-real submachine guns, assault rifles, and machine guns) per person as in the US, especially when you consider that both WWI and WWII were fought there, guns would have been very easy to get, and since a well-made gun tends to stay operational for decades, if not centuries*, I'd bet that there are more of them in Europe in private hands then you might guess. It is estimated that in Germany, there are at least as many unregistered guns as there are legally registered ones, and that most of them are military in origin, especially 'leakage' from the former East Germany. That means actual fully automatic AK's, not semi-auto only.

*I'm 44 years old. I've fired an original Civil War era Remington 1858 New Army revolver. My father had bought it back in the 1950's back when there were no reproductions being made. If you do the math, it was at least 120 years old when I shot it.
 
2011-09-26 08:03:27 AM
NYC is just getting ready for American balkanization and the return of the city-state.
 
2011-09-26 08:05:02 AM
If you're all wondering, it's a machine-gun based, medium-caliber, high RoF weapon. It's not a guided missile.

/FYI: They're fun.
 
2011-09-26 08:07:40 AM
I don't think America spends enough protecting itself from extremely unlikely threats.

/ Bear Patrol?
 
2011-09-26 08:09:07 AM
That could solve the congestion problem at the three New York airports. Falling airplanes are an unintended consquence I'm sure.
 
2011-09-26 08:12:47 AM

Claude Ballse: [lh5.ggpht.com image 600x336]

Anti-terrorism is no laughing matter.


For the win!
 
2011-09-26 08:13:34 AM

Bomb Head Mohammed: I don't think America spends enough protecting itself from extremely unlikely threats.

/ Bear Patrol?


Guess we found Mr. Colbert's Fark handle.
 
2011-09-26 08:16:07 AM
I'm reasonably certain that the NYPD using a SAM to take down a plane, without getting authorization from the Feds would itself be an illegal act of terrorism
 
2011-09-26 08:17:57 AM

badhatharry: Tymast: badhatharry: I saw that segment on 60 minutes. New York City is so proud of it's incredible security systems. All I could think was that New York City has become an Orwellian nightmare.

Right, i suppose you have another way to deal with terrorists? They do hate us for our freedom after all.

This is not the right way. The US has 15,000 non-terrorist related murders a year. The Joker was right. We have lost our freaking minds.


If you compare like to like, though, it's not that bad. First you have to look at rates per 100,000 to get an accurate comparison.

In the US, the homicide rate is about 6.1 per 100,000 overall. If you just include "European Americans", who by the way are the most likely to legally own guns, the rate is actually just 2.7 per 100,000*. Source: CDC WISQARS Injury Mortality Report.

Europe as a whole has a homicide rate of about 5.4 per 100,000, with Western Europe being very low (1.5 per 100,000), and Eastern Europe being very high (15.7 per 100,000).

So, "European Americans", who mostly came from Western Europe, with a smaller yet still very significant number from Eastern Europe, have a homicide rate somewhere between that of Western Europe and Europe overall, despite generally having much better access to firearms than most of Europe.

Conclusion: It isn't the guns, it's the culture. You learn your values from your parents, who learned their values from their parents, and so on back into time. Is it any wonder that the descendants of people from region X have a similar homicide rate to those who still live in region X?

*White non-Hispanics.
 
2011-09-26 08:18:09 AM

NewportBarGuy: Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.


I saw the interview. He meant shooting down a plane.

Our police have become a virtual branch of the military. What a convenient way to get around the Constitutional prohibition of using the military against the populous.
 
2011-09-26 08:18:21 AM

eas81: Hell Santrini air has to be somewhere around there?

[www.helicopterpicture.org image 640x379]


*fap fap fap*
 
2011-09-26 08:18:50 AM

Magorn: I'm reasonably certain that the NYPD using a SAM to take down a plane, without getting authorization from the Feds would itself be an illegal act of terrorism


Probably not. I'd say they're allowed to use deadly force to prevent what they feel to be a crime (especially when the life and/or limbs of bystanders are at risk). This is a logical extension of that.

I'm not saying I necessarily support this, just pointing out that it's not that much different than shooting at a car trying to run a cop/civilian down, etc.
 
2011-09-26 08:19:30 AM

SharkTrager: Our police have become a virtual branch of the military. What a convenient way to get around the Constitutional prohibition of using the military against the populous.


...they wouldn't - would they? Why, that would be unconst-***CARRIER LOST***
 
2011-09-26 08:20:54 AM
Any NIKE sites left around Manhattan? Bring them back on line. Maybe bring G Gordon Liddy in to run them. He has experience. I think he actually served in one of the batteries that covered New York. I remember him writing about using the optics to watch women undress.
 
2011-09-26 08:21:09 AM

Tymast: badhatharry: I saw that segment on 60 minutes. New York City is so proud of it's incredible security systems. All I could think was that New York City has become an Orwellian nightmare.

Right, i suppose you have another way to deal with terrorists? They do hate us for our freedom after all.


I'm curious. Do you really believe we are seriously threatened by terrorists to a degree that justifies tracking the movements of every citizen of the largest city in the nation, which is precisely what they showed they are capable of doing.
 
2011-09-26 08:21:21 AM

Sid_6.7: stolenlogin: or they could just scrabble some F-16's. I assure you they can do that much quicker than they can get a drone in the air

They could probably loiter drones in the airspace for a long time for the cost of keeping F-16's ready to scramble on the ground.


The big issue is every so often the drone's go unresponsive and they have to send a jet up to shoot them down. I've heard a couple USAF pilots piss and moan about the only thing they shot in Afghanistan were Predators that blue screened. The drones would be cheaper, but the general populace would freak out when we had to send someone up to splash the defective ones.
 
2011-09-26 08:21:35 AM

Harry Freakstorm: Any NIKE sites left around Manhattan?


Nah, those factories all went overseas.
 
2011-09-26 08:21:41 AM

TommyymmoT: Had I had advance knowledge of 9/11, and had a ground to air missile, I wouldn't be known as the hero who saved all those people at the World Trade Center.

I would be remembered as that asshole who shot down that plane, and killed all those people.


People would wonder how you could claim to know in advance that those planes were going to be crashed into WTC.
 
2011-09-26 08:22:09 AM

ronaprhys: Magorn: I'm reasonably certain that the NYPD using a SAM to take down a plane, without getting authorization from the Feds would itself be an illegal act of terrorism

Probably not. I'd say they're allowed to use deadly force to prevent what they feel to be a crime (especially when the life and/or limbs of bystanders are at risk). This is a logical extension of that.

I'm not saying I necessarily support this, just pointing out that it's not that much different than shooting at a car trying to run a cop/civilian down, etc.


Which is interesting when one considers the US military has to get authorization from the freaking President to do the same thing in the same situation.
 
2011-09-26 08:24:07 AM

SharkTrager: NewportBarGuy: Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.

I saw the interview. He meant shooting down a plane.

Our police have become a virtual branch of the military. What a convenient way to get around the Constitutional prohibition of using the military against the populous.


You have to stop thinking logically and catching on to the grand idea. That's how you end up on lists; and if history has taught you anything, you don't want to be...on a government compiled list.
 
2011-09-26 08:24:59 AM

6655321: Reminds me of the actions of Idi Amin and Hitler. As long as a government was abusively controlling its own citizens, the rest of the world did not concern themselves.


All right, everybody, this signaled the end of the serious portion of this thread. Everyone head home, it's going to be all nonsense and 4chan-lite trolls from here.
 
2011-09-26 08:30:03 AM

dittybopper: In the US, the homicide rate is about 6.1 per 100,000 overall. If you just include "European Americans", who by the way are the most likely to legally own guns, the rate is actually just 2.7 per 100,000


Why don't you quit tip-toeing around and say what you really mean: "it's the blacks."

I'm not sure what that has to do with a commissioner of a civilian police department making terroristic threats, though.
 
2011-09-26 08:34:39 AM
It is more than likely that NYC does not possess anti-aircraft missiles. Those weapons are under strict government arms controls and are never to be released to municipal authorities. IF, and that is a big IF they did, those weapons would remain in possession and under the protection and control of a military unit.

It is more feasible that the city possesses unmanned aerial drones capable of either being kinetically directed to take down an aircraft (driven into the aircraft itself) or loaded with conventional ground explosives that can be directed to explode into an errant airliner. It is also feasible that there are specialized NYC Police helicopters that can be loaded with heavy caliber weaponry capable of firing on low flying planes.
 
2011-09-26 08:35:28 AM
New York City is just prepping for the eventual and inevitable Chinese invasion.
 
2011-09-26 08:37:02 AM

SharkTrager: Which is interesting when one considers the US military has to get authorization from the freaking President to do the same thing in the same situation.


Technically, that's because there's a Constitutional prohibition against using the military against civilians. The police are there to stop crime, so this could be considered one of their normal duties.

Big picture, though - I'm not happy with this. I believe there's an underlying philosophy inherent to the Constitution. One that, by design, makes it harder on the police and government to do things. Warrants, laws restricting actions, privacy rights, trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty, etc. All of these things give the civilian populace the benefit of the doubt and force the police to work harder. This is a Very Good Thing as, when enforced, it limits and prevents the police or the government from arbitrarily restricting and violating rights.

Considering the chance of a terrorist attack via planes is exceedingly small, this is excessive.
 
2011-09-26 08:38:46 AM

Amos Quito: From your link:

upload.wikimedia.org

"A Spitfire using its wingtip to "topple" a V-1 flying bomb"


Necessity is the mother.


That is all kinds of badass.
 
2011-09-26 08:40:15 AM

Scorpio Rex: dittybopper: In the US, the homicide rate is about 6.1 per 100,000 overall. If you just include "European Americans", who by the way are the most likely to legally own guns, the rate is actually just 2.7 per 100,000

Why don't you quit tip-toeing around and say what you really mean: "it's the blacks."

I'm not sure what that has to do with a commissioner of a civilian police department making terroristic threats, though.


I think what he's saying is that if you're white you don't have to worry as much.
 
2011-09-26 08:48:15 AM

NewportBarGuy: Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.


It took them 41 shots to take down Amadou Diallo. I wonder how many stingers it would take them to bring down an airliner?
 
2011-09-26 08:49:15 AM
It's just a .50 cal M2 they have that can be building/helicopter mounted. Pic of a M2 (new window)

Problem is, unless they get a crapload of warning, that's not going to be very useful.
 
2011-09-26 08:54:09 AM

Charlie Freak: Scorpio Rex: dittybopper: In the US, the homicide rate is about 6.1 per 100,000 overall. If you just include "European Americans", who by the way are the most likely to legally own guns, the rate is actually just 2.7 per 100,000

Why don't you quit tip-toeing around and say what you really mean: "it's the blacks."

I'm not sure what that has to do with a commissioner of a civilian police department making terroristic threats, though.

I think what he's saying is that if you're white you don't have to worry as much.


How are mixed-race incidents accounted?
 
2011-09-26 08:55:03 AM

Handsome Jack Manitoba: I'd guess they must have RPGs, and think they can take down a plane with those...


You'd have to be one hell of shot to knock down a fast moving plane with an RPG.
 
2011-09-26 08:57:14 AM

BurnShrike: MickeyRaptor: According to MSNBC, the NYPD also has "operatives" stationed in Abu Dhabi, Amman, Montreal, Toronto, Singapore, Paris, and other cities.

Get those farkers out of my country! We have enough trouble with our own cops, let alone foreign ones that don't have to answer to our public (not that it stops the RCMP or anything)


The "operatives" in question are usually just analysts and work in the open with full support of the local law enforcement community. Usually liaisons that feed possible intel reports back to NYC.

For the real dirty work, Bloomberg likes to hire contractors (i.e. private investigators) like he did in Virginia to try and prove they could violate gun purchasing laws. They were caught red-handed.
 
2011-09-26 08:58:09 AM

jjorsett: NewportBarGuy: Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.

It took them 41 shots to take down Amadou Diallo. I wonder how many stingers it would take them to bring down an airliner?


Ohhhh, now that's good! You win for today, Sir! Take the day off and go get a beer.
 
2011-09-26 09:05:07 AM
I wish the persons "in charge" would not go around demonstrating their incredible stupidity and worrysome lack of any leadership skills whatsoever.
I need the illusion of competence "in charge" and these fools keep speaking.

/maybe is just me
 
2011-09-26 09:05:57 AM
Yes, the fearsome Fuggeddaboudit AA system, often yoused in conjunction with Whaddayoulookinat laser-guided missiles.
 
2011-09-26 09:08:46 AM

Scorpio Rex: dittybopper: In the US, the homicide rate is about 6.1 per 100,000 overall. If you just include "European Americans", who by the way are the most likely to legally own guns, the rate is actually just 2.7 per 100,000

Why don't you quit tip-toeing around and say what you really mean: "it's the blacks."


Because I'm comparing like to like, Europeans to the descendants of Europeans, to show that access to legal guns, or lack thereof, doesn't significantly contribute the homicide rate.

Since you brought it up, however, yes, full half of the homicides in the US are due to violence in the black community, but again, it isn't access to guns: In theory, they have the same legal access as whites in the US do*, yet they end up being victims of homicide at a much higher rate.

Some people think that poverty is the reason, but that's not true. We can control for the effects of poverty by dividing the number of homicides in both the black and white communities by the number of people in the lowest economic strata in both those communities. In the United States, there are more than twice as many whites living in the lowest poverty level (50% or lower than the official poverty level) than blacks (10.120 million vs. 4.215 million) Source: US Census Bureau Poverty Tables.

In 2007, there were 5,512 white non-Hispanic homicide victims, and 8,746 black non-Hispanic homicide victims. Source: CDC WISQARS Injury Mortality Report

If you do the math, that's (5512/10120000)*100000 = 54.46 white homicides per 100,000 very poor whites, and (8746/4215000)*100000 = 207.49 black homicides per 100,000 very poor blacks.

In other words, even controlling for poverty, the homicide rate in the black community is roughly 4 times higher.

You can't blame a difference in where they live, either: Both poor blacks and poor whites overwhelmingly live in urban areas. I believe the rates are 92% and 86% respectively, IIRC.

So why the difference? Melanin content?

Of course not. Personally, I think it's cultural. You learn your values from your parents, but if you don't have a strong family, the transmission of those values can break down, and we've seen that happen over the last 50 years in the black community. With perverse incentives for women to have children early and to stay unmarried, and to keep having children, and zero incentive for fathers to marry and to participate in the rearing of their children, this breaks down the traditionally strong black family structure. Something like 2/3rds to 3/4ths of black children are born out of wedlock. That's *GOT* to mess up the transmission of cultural values and norms against violence. I actually think that LBJ's "Great Society" programs have killed more people than they ever saved.

There isn't an easy answer to that problem. I know gun control certainly isn't going to work: It didn't work for the decades that handguns were completely banned in DC and Chicago. We do need to find an answer, though. How many doctors, artists, scientists, inventors, and leaders never get the chance to fulfill their destinies and help all of mankind simply because they were born black and they ended up on the wrong side of the law, or a gun, simply because of where they were born? How would Barack Obama's life turned out had be been born to a single black woman in Compton or Harlem, and not had the advantages of a semi-privileged upbringing?

I'm not sure what that has to do with a commissioner of a civilian police department making terroristic threats, though.

It's only tangentially related, but it's to stave off the "Hey, us suave and urbane Europeans are smarter/better/civilizier than you 'Merkins" comments that tend to, and already have, crop up in threads like this.

*This isn't *QUITE* correct: The last vestige of the old Jim Crow laws are the laws in cities with large black populations that make it very tough to own a gun, especially if you are very poor. They are written to be facially race neutral, but they overwhelmingly effect blacks more than whites.
 
2011-09-26 09:08:47 AM
If George W. Bush could launch our complete nuclear arsenal this concern about the NYPD having AA capability seems positively quaint.
 
2011-09-26 09:08:58 AM
So instead of having terrorists fly a plane into a building, the NYPD is gonna shoot down the plane, and have it crash into some buildings.


Brilliant.
 
2011-09-26 09:10:28 AM

zedster: Amos Quito: Relatively Obscure: Spike strips attached to balloons.


That or the airborne "pit maneuver"

the brits kind of did that to V1s in WWII Link (new window)

//I knight myself sir buzz killington


That, sir...is farking AWESOME.

They needs to remake COD1 and make this an additional air assault level.
 
2011-09-26 09:12:21 AM

AHumbleSoldier: It is more than likely that NYC does not possess anti-aircraft missiles. Those weapons are under strict government arms controls and are never to be released to municipal authorities. IF, and that is a big IF they did, those weapons would remain in possession and under the protection and control of a military unit.


Bloomberg has been known to violate federal laws, and in fact had to be slapped down by the federal government for doing just that outside of his legal jurisdiction. It wouldn't surprise me to learn they might have a MANPAD or two.
 
2011-09-26 09:12:55 AM
Shooting down a plane that is already flying over the city isn't really much of a solution, unless your goal is to spread the damage randomly.
 
2011-09-26 09:15:17 AM
eas81 Quote 2011-09-26 07:26:34 AM
labman: Fly a police helicopter into it?

Came to say this also a small plane as well. Also Fark Fails me really no one rememebers this come on people we have the technology:


The hardware, weaponry and surveillance systems depicted in this film are
real and in use in the United States today.
 
2011-09-26 09:16:47 AM

SirEattonHogg: eas81 Quote 2011-09-26 07:26:34 AM
labman: Fly a police helicopter into it?

Came to say this also a small plane as well. Also Fark Fails me really no one rememebers this come on people we have the technology:

The hardware, weaponry and surveillance systems depicted in this film are
real and in use in the United States today.


...except, of course, for "whisper mode".
 
2011-09-26 09:17:57 AM

raggtopp: zedster: Amos Quito: Relatively Obscure: Spike strips attached to balloons.


That or the airborne "pit maneuver"

the brits kind of did that to V1s in WWII Link (new window)

//I knight myself sir buzz killington

That, sir...is farking AWESOME.

They needs to remake COD1 and make this an additional air assault level.


Riiight. Formation flying sells.

If they ported something like that to a video game, it'd involve the V1 making defense maneuvers and it'd have to have a tail cannon, otherwise you'd all fall asleep.
 
2011-09-26 09:19:40 AM
Sid_6.7
They tried pigeons, but they aren't large enough. So they tried two pigeons taped together. They couldn't fly fast enough. So geese it is.


Swallows, man, Swallows. They're the avian equivalent of a C-17.
 
2011-09-26 09:21:10 AM

dittybopper: SirEattonHogg: eas81 Quote 2011-09-26 07:26:34 AM
labman: Fly a police helicopter into it?

Came to say this also a small plane as well. Also Fark Fails me really no one rememebers this come on people we have the technology:

The hardware, weaponry and surveillance systems depicted in this film are
real and in use in the United States today.

...except, of course, for "whisper mode".


You leave Blue Thunder alone, there are damsels in partial undress to spy on!
 
2011-09-26 09:21:47 AM

Sid_6.7: The real problem is that people love complaining. If you don't have a police force equipped to take down a suspect who has body armor and an assault rifle (new window), while all they have are handguns and shotguns, then they're incompetent and stupid.


Sure, it takes 50-100 high-powered rifles and an APC to take down a guy wearing kevlar, right? Right?
 
2011-09-26 09:22:07 AM
So when the US splinters into nations states NYC will be able to defend itself from the things from New Jersey
 
2011-09-26 09:25:09 AM

JagYui: To be fair, there are such things as MANPADs (not a male equivalent to a feminine hygiene product). So they could have some SA-7's bought on the black market or something.


Ignoring the whole absurdity of the NYPD buying missiles on the black market, you might want to google the topic of MANPADs v airliners. Cliff notes version - a few decades of experience has shown that unless the shooter gets very lucky, you aren't going to bring one down with a warhead that small. Ditto for gun-based systems. Unless you're using a cannon with a high rate of fire (like the phalanx system), you aren't going to deliver enough destructive power to stop the target - not to mention you've got to actually hit it. Even good old Ma Deuce isn't going to bring down an airliner before it hits its target.

CeroX: If i remember correctly, wasn't there an article here on fark a while back about NY and LA getting reaper drones, and everyone flipping out about them spying on citizens?

Seems to me an MQ-9 might have the capability to bring down an airliner. It's not like an airliner has the dexterity of an f-16 or anything... I'm sure the "pilots" could get a missile lock on a 747...


No, but it does have roughly a 2:1 speed advantage. Kinda hard to make an interception when you can't run the target down from behind. All you've got is one shot at something close to a head-on pass.

The police commissioner's talking out his arse, and/or he's totally ignorant about what it would take to down an airliner.

It's possible he's talking about a small general aviation plane, in which case he doesn't have any capability that a police force equipped with a helicopter and a few automatic weapons doesn't also possess.

Oh, before I leave:

dittybopper: Conclusion: It isn't the guns, it's the culture. You learn your values from your parents, who learned their values from their parents, and so on back into time. Is it any wonder that the descendants of people from region X have a similar homicide rate to those who still live in region X


You're 100% right, but you posted facts that don't fit the proper political agenda so:

www.gifbin.com
 
2011-09-26 09:27:36 AM

JustGetItRight: dittybopper: Conclusion: It isn't the guns, it's the culture. You learn your values from your parents, who learned their values from their parents, and so on back into time. Is it any wonder that the descendants of people from region X have a similar homicide rate to those who still live in region X

You're 100% right, but you posted facts that don't fit the proper political agenda so:

www.gifbin.com


I've been called worse, by people better than you ;-)
 
2011-09-26 09:28:52 AM

DeathByGeekSquad: dittybopper: SirEattonHogg: eas81 Quote 2011-09-26 07:26:34 AM
labman: Fly a police helicopter into it?

Came to say this also a small plane as well. Also Fark Fails me really no one rememebers this come on people we have the technology:

The hardware, weaponry and surveillance systems depicted in this film are
real and in use in the United States today.

...except, of course, for "whisper mode".

You leave Blue Thunder alone, there are damsels in partial undress to spy on!


Pity I just took the last bok choi.
 
2011-09-26 09:31:39 AM

Charlie Freak: raggtopp: zedster: Amos Quito: Relatively Obscure: Spike strips attached to balloons.


That or the airborne "pit maneuver"

the brits kind of did that to V1s in WWII Link (new window)

//I knight myself sir buzz killington

That, sir...is farking AWESOME.

They needs to remake COD1 and make this an additional air assault level.

Riiight. Formation flying sells.

If they ported something like that to a video game, it'd involve the V1 making defense maneuvers and it'd have to have a tail cannon, otherwise you'd all fall asleep.


There could easily be a mission involving flying your plane from one V-1 to next.

You're thinking too simple if you have to give the V-1 AI and guns. You focus on the "6 inchs below the V-1 wingtip" part.

You don't have to actually FLY a plane because it's COD so it would all be done through QTEs anyway.
 
2011-09-26 09:39:33 AM
I saw that story and shook my head at the LEO's carrying automatic weapons. Way to go Osama. That used to be the kind of thing you only saw on your stompling grounds, not ours. Kudos to you, sir, if posthumously.
 
2011-09-26 09:49:45 AM

miss diminutive: Maybe they're going to install some giant mirrors on skyscraper rooftops to make some kind of city-wide, Archimedes heat ray?

Planes don't fly at night, right?


Kefka is not amused
 
2011-09-26 09:52:51 AM
So lemme get this straight.

Arizona wants to help control the borders, since the feds can't or won't do it.
Feds get all sandy vag about it and sue to make sure the law isn't enforced.

NYC wants to knock airliners out of the air, in case feds forget to.
Feds don't see that as usurping their primary reason for being, go all Alphonse and Gaston and furnish the weapons.

Difference? Arizona has a Republican governor, so gets sued.
NYC had a Democratic Mayor, so gets help.
 
2011-09-26 09:55:21 AM

ha-ha-guy: Sid_6.7: stolenlogin: or they could just scrabble some F-16's. I assure you they can do that much quicker than they can get a drone in the air

They could probably loiter drones in the airspace for a long time for the cost of keeping F-16's ready to scramble on the ground.

The big issue is every so often the drone's go unresponsive and they have to send a jet up to shoot them down. I've heard a couple USAF pilots piss and moan about the only thing they shot in Afghanistan were Predators that blue screened. The drones would be cheaper, but the general populace would freak out when we had to send someone up to splash the defective ones.


Hmph... they fly drones down here in Louisiana all the time. The national guard and the state police work together in using them. For a while they were using some sort of drones over the I-10 Atchafalaya bridge to clock speeders (the 14th longest bridge in the world); well that is what they claimed but they made a lot of pot bust during that time period, I think they were using thermal imagining to find the drug runners. I don't see why the NYPD and the New York National guard may not have a deal where they have access to a predator drone armed to take down a plane; I don't see why everyone is assuming the guy is referring to anti aircraft missiles.
 
2011-09-26 10:01:34 AM

NewportBarGuy: Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.


Especially since everyone flies planes!


/ ;)
 
2011-09-26 10:02:17 AM

NewportBarGuy: $20 says he thinks he can do it with a .50 cal sniper rifle.


I'm not gonna front the $20, but in other articles it says inside sources and saying exactly that. They mount a Barrett .50 on a helicopter and that's their AA weapon.

Of course I'm laughing a bit inside on the prospects of a sniper shooting down a full speed jetliner with a sniper rifle. Not to mention how much *more* damage to the city and people would happen if said jetliner was downed onto a city neighborhood.
 
2011-09-26 10:05:24 AM
Apparently sometime in the past ten years the NYPD added anti-aircraft missiles to its arsenal


Well, either that, or they now empoly Ian McKellen.
 
2011-09-26 10:14:58 AM

Sid_6.7: HAMMERTOE: In the wake of 9-11, who have they treated like the enemy? A TSA agent pretty much has to overtly and egregiously feel up a toddler before attention is given to the gross overreaction of the system. Meanwhile, those who make the rules create special exemptions for their selves.

The real problem is that people love complaining. If you don't have a police force equipped to take down a suspect who has body armor and an assault rifle (new window), while all they have are handguns and shotguns, then they're incompetent and stupid.

If they invest in the required tools, training, etc. to be able to respond to extreme threats, then suddenly they're an evil military force.

And people will whine and biatch and moan either way. Even if you go out of your way to try and find a happy medium, people will complain.


False dichotomy is false. In the US the police have gone from one extreme to another.

The LA shootout would have ended quickly had officers been issued slugs for their shotguns (Wouldn't have penetrated the kevlar, but would have killed via blunt force trauma.) , a mini-14, or even a bolt action 223 rifle would have done the job. After that event the transition from shotguns to semi-auto 223 rifle's was reasonable. Handing out anti-aircraft weaponry, automatic weapons, and APC's to the police is not reasonable.

If someone is being a jerk in an airplane the only things the cops should do is get their N-number, follow them, and arrest them when they land as was done for decades.
 
2011-09-26 10:17:58 AM

AHumbleSoldier: It is more than likely that NYC does not possess anti-aircraft missiles. Those weapons are under strict government arms controls and are never to be released to municipal authorities. IF, and that is a big IF they did, those weapons would remain in possession and under the protection and control of a military unit.

It is more feasible that the city possesses unmanned aerial drones capable of either being kinetically directed to take down an aircraft (driven into the aircraft itself) or loaded with conventional ground explosives that can be directed to explode into an errant airliner. It is also feasible that there are specialized NYC Police helicopters that can be loaded with heavy caliber weaponry capable of firing on low flying planes.


Either later options would likely require the military being in close control as to prevent a panicked reaction and accidental shoot down. The extra couple fo layers of command and control that slows things down is actually a benifit in this situation.
 
2011-09-26 10:21:58 AM
From the documentary Men in Black, I understand NYPD may have anti-intergalactic spaceship weaponry.
 
2011-09-26 10:24:33 AM
These are not snowblowers.

i26.photobucket.com
 
2011-09-26 10:25:40 AM

Uncle Wiggly: Well, NYFD has those little boats with those little squirter things.


Wanna know how I know you don't live anywhere near NY?
 
2011-09-26 10:33:28 AM

SharkTrager: NewportBarGuy: Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.

I saw the interview. He meant shooting down a plane.

Our police have become a virtual branch of the military. What a convenient way to get around the Constitutional prohibition of using the military against the populous.


The Posse Comitatus Act is a law, not a constitutional prohibition.
 
2011-09-26 10:34:48 AM
Welcome to the future.
 
2011-09-26 10:35:22 AM

Eshkar: ha-ha-guy: Sid_6.7: stolenlogin: or they could just scrabble some F-16's. I assure you they can do that much quicker than they can get a drone in the air

They could probably loiter drones in the airspace for a long time for the cost of keeping F-16's ready to scramble on the ground.

The big issue is every so often the drone's go unresponsive and they have to send a jet up to shoot them down. I've heard a couple USAF pilots piss and moan about the only thing they shot in Afghanistan were Predators that blue screened. The drones would be cheaper, but the general populace would freak out when we had to send someone up to splash the defective ones.

Hmph... they fly drones down here in Louisiana all the time. The national guard and the state police work together in using them. For a while they were using some sort of drones over the I-10 Atchafalaya bridge to clock speeders (the 14th longest bridge in the world); well that is what they claimed but they made a lot of pot bust during that time period, I think they were using thermal imagining to find the drug runners. I don't see why the NYPD and the New York National guard may not have a deal where they have access to a predator drone armed to take down a plane; I don't see why everyone is assuming the guy is referring to anti aircraft missiles.


preditors are armed with helfires or bombs usually, thats ground strike stuff.. MANPADS and other anti-aircraft stuff will remain under military or National Guard control. Nobody wants to drop a plane over a crouded city even if its totally a justified act. The chances of a mistake are much higher. I don't see the NYPD getting their own anti-air capabilty.

Now, with air crew doors being locked and a lot sturdier than they used to be, I'll bet pilots are likely instructed to get that plane on the ground ASAP. Then, disable the flight computers somehow and escape out the cockpit window. At all costs keep that plane on the ground. Passangers and air crew in the back are basically farked until the hostage rescue team arrives because its not getting back in the air no matter how many people the terrorists shoot. This is pure spec on my part
 
2011-09-26 10:35:23 AM

NewportBarGuy: b2theory: Unless they also bought an integrated air defense system, a couple stingers aren't going to help much.

[i51.tinypic.com image 324x220]

Buy 10, get one free!


Those ZSU-23 are farking deadly
 
2011-09-26 10:43:53 AM
FTFA: "The chief of the New York Police Department says city police could take down a plane if necessary......
Other measures include sending NYPD officers abroad, using radiation detectors and creating a network of surveillance cameras in Manhattan."



has anybody pointed out yet that none of these things would have prevented 9/11?
 
2011-09-26 10:47:54 AM
www.harrystone.net
 
2011-09-26 10:49:22 AM
Didn't a bunch of SAMs went missing in Libya?

Maybe the NYPD had somebody in Libya.
 
2011-09-26 10:52:42 AM
It's totally ridiculous, how much money the government will waste attempting to be the end, rather than the means to an end. All this money to avoid simply allowing individuals to arm their selves and be in control of their own destinies.
 
2011-09-26 10:53:54 AM
Mu guess is that there is now a permanent anti-aircraft installation somewhere in NYC manned by the military that the NYPD has at their disposal - within reason. You haven't heard about it because it's classified, for good reason. The chief made his point without really revealing anything classified, just saying that the NYPD could do it. He didn't say WHO would do it.
 
2011-09-26 10:54:25 AM

Awesome T-Shirt: Uncle Wiggly: Well, NYFD has those little boats with those little squirter things.

Wanna know how I know you don't live anywhere near NY?


Sorry. It's a joke. I had model FDNY fireboats when I was kid; they were awesome. I'm just farking with fire guys.
 
2011-09-26 10:54:56 AM

AbbeySomeone: NewportBarGuy: Also... "take down a plane" could also refer to a traditional takeover of an airplane on the tarmac that is held hostage. I'm assuming this is what he will say to clarify this. Or, we're now giving AA to police departments and that should terrify everyone.

They're letting alcoholics handle missiles? Live and let live?


Alcoholics are the last people i would expect to voluntarily stop shooting at the enemy across no-man's land. More like live and let the bodies hit the floor.
 
2011-09-26 11:06:14 AM

crazytrpr: Eshkar: ha-ha-guy: Sid_6.7: stolenlogin: or they could just scrabble some F-16's. I assure you they can do that much quicker than they can get a drone in the air

They could probably loiter drones in the airspace for a long time for the cost of keeping F-16's ready to scramble on the ground.

The big issue is every so often the drone's go unresponsive and they have to send a jet up to shoot them down. I've heard a couple USAF pilots piss and moan about the only thing they shot in Afghanistan were Predators that blue screened. The drones would be cheaper, but the general populace would freak out when we had to send someone up to splash the defective ones.

Hmph... they fly drones down here in Louisiana all the time. The national guard and the state police work together in using them. For a while they were using some sort of drones over the I-10 Atchafalaya bridge to clock speeders (the 14th longest bridge in the world); well that is what they claimed but they made a lot of pot bust during that time period, I think they were using thermal imagining to find the drug runners. I don't see why the NYPD and the New York National guard may not have a deal where they have access to a predator drone armed to take down a plane; I don't see why everyone is assuming the guy is referring to anti aircraft missiles.

preditors are armed with helfires or bombs usually, thats ground strike stuff.. MANPADS and other anti-aircraft stuff will remain under military or National Guard control. Nobody wants to drop a plane over a crouded city even if its totally a justified act. The chances of a mistake are much higher. I don't see the NYPD getting their own anti-air capabilty.

Now, with air crew doors being locked and a lot sturdier than they used to be, I'll bet pilots are likely instructed to get that plane on the ground ASAP. Then, disable the flight computers somehow and escape out the cockpit window. At all costs keep that plane on the ground. Passangers and air crew in the back are basically farked until the hostage rescue team arrives because its not getting back in the air no matter how many people the terrorists shoot. This is pure spec on my part


While shooting down a plane over New York City would be horrible, the no fly zone around the city has been increased which would increase the likely hood of being able to down the plane before it entered the city and minimizing causalities. While again horrible it is still an option... hence the reason the guy tfa mentioned their capabilities. Now I shouldn't have used 'predator' so generically, If you want specifics I should have said that they could be referring to using Reaper drones armed with AIM-92 stingers from the New York Air National Guard's 174th fighter wing.
 
2011-09-26 11:14:23 AM

Eshkar:
While shooting down a plane over New York City would be horrible, the no fly zone around the city has been increased which would increase the likely hood of being able to down the plane before it entered the city and minimizing causalities. While again horrible it is still an option... hence the reason the guy tfa mentioned their capabilities. Now I shouldn't have used 'predator' so generically, If you want specifics I should have said that they could be referring to using Reaper drones armed with AIM-92 stingers from the New York Air National Guard's 174th fighter wing.


Depends on the direction of the attack. Northern Jersey is densely populated with nothing but guidos, trashpits, and the like (which, oddly enough, are fairly indistinguishable from each other). As such, unless it's over the water, they're likely to hit someone.
 
2011-09-26 11:15:24 AM
My best friend was seconded out of his unit to the Anti-Terrorism Task Force covering the NYC area. This was pre-9/11

He said the capabilities then were mind blowing what the Feds and the NYC police could put in action if they needed to (including scalar EM weapons), but that the real difficulty lay in nanny-pants spineless dickwads for public officials who could fark up a trip to the toilet let alone make a command decision about which truck to gas up.

After three years and seeing a little action that never made the News, he begged to go back to hostile territories and shoot some bad guys.

He was totally disgusted by civilian 'authorities'.
 
2011-09-26 11:22:40 AM

GaryPDX: Okay, let's compare. NYC sets up it's own defense network complete with Anti Aircraft systems because the Fed isn't enough. That's Fed territory in defending the nation. Let's carry that logic to Immigration Enforcement, another responsibility designated to the Fed. States should be able to enforce illegal immigration too. Same reasons, the Fed isn't enough.

Consistency, how does it work.


i52.tinypic.com

You'll start to see me tearing things down. Speeches tonight are canceled. Unless the insult's cured by tomorrow, there'll be further tearing down. F*ck the f*cking elections, and f*ck the agreement with Yankton. Let the camp return to its former repute: unstable and unsafe for commerce.
 
2011-09-26 11:24:44 AM

Scorpio Rex: dittybopper: In the US, the homicide rate is about 6.1 per 100,000 overall. If you just include "European Americans", who by the way are the most likely to legally own guns, the rate is actually just 2.7 per 100,000

Why don't you quit tip-toeing around and say what you really mean: "it's the blacks."

I'm not sure what that has to do with a commissioner of a civilian police department making terroristic threats, though.


Did he really just divide America up into "whites", "polacks" and "darkies" in order to triumphantly assert that America has a lower murder rate than them thar Yurpeans?
 
2011-09-26 12:02:23 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: The military for when we want to declare war on others.
The police for when we want to declare war *on ourselves*.


I would much rather face the police than the military. The toys may be similar but the training is not.
 
2011-09-26 12:10:57 PM

Crosshair: The LA shootout would have ended quickly had officers been issued slugs for their shotguns (Wouldn't have penetrated the kevlar, but would have killed via blunt force trauma.)


False. If that were true, then placing the butt of a shotgun on your chest and pulling the trigger would also be deadly, which it obviously isn't. A vest helps to spread out and distribute the energy. You end up with a wicked bruise, but 99.99% of the time you aren't going to die from the trauma.

, a mini-14, or even a bolt action 223 rifle would have done the job.


Actually, a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, or a similar .30 caliber level gun, would have stopped them by penetrating the vests. Any caliber commonly used for hunting deer, which is a man-sized animal, would have been fine.
 
2011-09-26 12:17:41 PM

Eshkar: While shooting down a plane over New York City would be horrible, the no fly zone around the city has been increased which would increase the likely hood of being able to down the plane before it entered the city and minimizing causalities.


What no-fly zone? It's not on the sectional chart.
 
2011-09-26 01:32:04 PM

dittybopper: Crosshair: The LA shootout would have ended quickly had officers been issued slugs for their shotguns (Wouldn't have penetrated the kevlar, but would have killed via blunt force trauma.)


Wouldn't that be a bit of a bad comparison? The butt of the shotgun is much larger than the slug, so the actual impact would be spread out much better. Armor plates would make that pretty accurate, but maybe not with Kevlar? More of a discussion than a disagreement.

Actually, a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, or a similar .30 caliber level gun, would have stopped them by penetrating the vests. Any caliber commonly used for hunting deer, which is a man-sized animal, would have been fine.

It's odd how many people don't seem to realize that hunting rifles are more powerful and generally more accurate than run of the mill military ones.
 
2011-09-26 01:57:12 PM

ronaprhys: dittybopper: Crosshair: The LA shootout would have ended quickly had officers been issued slugs for their shotguns (Wouldn't have penetrated the kevlar, but would have killed via blunt force trauma.)

Wouldn't that be a bit of a bad comparison? The butt of the shotgun is much larger than the slug, so the actual impact would be spread out much better. Armor plates would make that pretty accurate, but maybe not with Kevlar? More of a discussion than a disagreement.


I'd be willing to put a "knob" the same diameter as a slug on the butt of a shotgun, hold it to my chest, and fire it. I'm sure it would hurt like a sonofabeech, and leave a nice bruise. Might even crack a rib or something, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't die from the blunt trauma.

Oh, and those guys in the North Hollywood shootout actually did have trauma plates anyway.

To put it another way, consider this: A 12 gauge slug has a frontal area of Pi*.752= 1.77 square inches. A typical butt on a shotgun might have an actual area of contact with your shoulder of 4 or 5 inches tall by 1 to 2 inches wide, depending on the shape, style, and your physique. That gives a contact area of between 4 and 10 square inches, so the blunt trauma would be deadly at forces only 2.26 to 5.65 times what you feel every time you shoot? You'd be dislocating your shoulder all the time, causing all kinds of damage.


Actually, a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, or a similar .30 caliber level gun, would have stopped them by penetrating the vests. Any caliber commonly used for hunting deer, which is a man-sized animal, would have been fine.

It's odd how many people don't seem to realize that hunting rifles are more powerful and generally more accurate than run of the mill military ones.


Actually, the line is blurring somewhat. It's not all that uncommon anymore to see an SKS used as a deer rifle. In some areas, it's replacing the lever action .30-30 as the brush/swamp/dense woods short range deer rifle.
 
2011-09-26 02:40:07 PM
I'm wondering if the force felt would go down by the square there. Not sure on the physics, so i could be wrong.
 
2011-09-26 02:49:17 PM
I'm personally surprised they aren't already flying the 24x7 surveillance blimps over New York.
I wonder if they could stage a reaper on one of the big ones?
 
2011-09-26 02:53:23 PM

ronaprhys: I'm wondering if the force felt would go down by the square there. Not sure on the physics, so i could be wrong.


Well, we can figure it out. That's the nice thing about guns, it's pure physics.

A shotgun slug has about 2300 ft/lbs of energy spread out on an area of 1.77 square inches, so that's about 1300 ft/lbs per square inch. The gun recoiling backwards has the same energy as the slug going forward, but it spreads it out among 4 to 10 square inches, so you get something like 230 to 575 ft/lbs per square inch hitting your shoulder. If it was all pointy, like a bullet, it would go in ya.
 
2011-09-26 03:10:09 PM
*headdesk*

No. You do not need this. No, no, no. You DO NOT NEED A SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILE. For ANY reason.
 
2011-09-26 03:10:10 PM

dittybopper: ronaprhys: I'm wondering if the force felt would go down by the square there. Not sure on the physics, so i could be wrong.

Well, we can figure it out. That's the nice thing about guns, it's pure physics.

A shotgun slug has about 2300 ft/lbs of energy spread out on an area of 1.77 square inches, so that's about 1300 ft/lbs per square inch. The gun recoiling backwards has the same energy as the slug going forward, but it spreads it out among 4 to 10 square inches, so you get something like 230 to 575 ft/lbs per square inch hitting your shoulder. If it was all pointy, like a bullet, it would go in ya.


Well done. I'm stuck on a conference call with a whiner, so I have to pay attention enough to not play with math.

BTW, thinking about it now, force going down with the square of the distance - not with the spread of the area.

Agreed - pointy things and such like go right into you.

Side note, I rather enjoy my SKS (since you mentioned them).
 
2011-09-26 03:25:04 PM

PsiChick: *headdesk*

No. You do not need this. No, no, no. You DO NOT NEED A SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILE. For ANY reason.


Why do you hate America?
 
2011-09-26 04:38:59 PM

dittybopper: False. If that were true, then placing the butt of a shotgun on your chest and pulling the trigger would also be deadly, which it obviously isn't.


A 12 gauge slug is .729" in diameter while the surface area of the recoil pad is many times larger than that. I DARE you to take something like a length of 3/4" wooden dowel, fasten it securely to the stock of the shotgun, place it hard against your chest and pull the trigger. You'll be in the ER having your broken ribs patched up.

A vest helps to spread out and distribute the energy. You end up with a wicked bruise, but 99.99% of the time you aren't going to die from the trauma.

Which is what the stock of the gun does too and what you missed in your post.

Also, a shotgun slug builds up most of its velocity over the first 12" of the shotgun barrel. A vest has to stop the bullet in less than a third the distance. Having your chest caved in 4" by a one ounce hunk of metal is gonna greatly impair your ability to fight.

Even 9mm and 40 S&W impacts break ribs, a 12 gauge slug will shatter several ribs and cause internal bleeding. A head-shot with a 12 gauge slug, which would have been a rather simple task had they had them in LA, would have killed, Kevlar or not.
 
2011-09-26 04:51:05 PM

Crosshair: Also, a shotgun slug builds up most of its velocity over the first 12" of the shotgun barrel. A vest has to stop the bullet in less than a third the distance. Having your chest caved in 4" by a one ounce hunk of metal is gonna greatly impair your ability to fight.


It's gonna leave a mark, but probably won't immediately put the target down. Here's your real world proof.

Deputy sheriff took 12 gauge slug to the chest area at near point-blank range. Didn't stop him from returning fire and making the arrest, but it did put him in the hospital for a bit.

Link (new window)

Link (new window)
 
2011-09-26 06:19:10 PM

Crosshair: Which is what the stock of the gun does too and what you missed in your post.


Having the stock hard into your shoulder helps a lot, too. The energy is turned into motion as you're pushed by it, not impact. Hold the butt about an inch from your shoulder. The impact hurts.
 
2011-09-26 06:39:52 PM
ahhh, so they must have been the ones who shot down twa flight 800!
 
2011-09-26 06:52:49 PM

JustGetItRight: JagYui: To be fair, there are such things as MANPADs (not a male equivalent to a feminine hygiene product). So they could have some SA-7's bought on the black market or something.

Ignoring the whole absurdity of the NYPD buying missiles on the black market...


Why would you ignore the entire point of my post, the fact that this is absurd? Also, it is possible (not probable) to bring down a commercial aircraft with a MANPAD, especially if you're using HE frag warheads. Of course, it would require that the plane be flying low to the ground, but if the pilot is planning on hitting a building, he would have to be within vertical range of a MANPAD. Again, this is not at all probable, but the capability exists, which is all the guy in TFA was saying.

As it stands, yes, my post is dry humor commenting on the unlikelihood anything said in this article is true. It's more likely just to promote a false sense of security in a city that's impossible to make secure.
 
2011-09-26 06:58:37 PM

PsiChick: *headdesk*

No. You do not need this. No, no, no. You DO NOT NEED A SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILE. For ANY reason.


Radical Islamic African swallows with jihad coconuts. We need to be able to shoot them down
 
2011-09-26 07:23:53 PM
To repeat, Commish Kelly is just referring to a .50 cal rifle mounted on a chopper.
 
2011-09-26 07:25:05 PM
They probably have an iPhone and a directional antenna.
 
2011-09-26 07:28:55 PM
nods in agreement

meetinthelobby.com
 
2011-09-26 07:57:20 PM

Sid_6.7: HAMMERTOE: In the wake of 9-11, who have they treated like the enemy? A TSA agent pretty much has to overtly and egregiously feel up a toddler before attention is given to the gross overreaction of the system. Meanwhile, those who make the rules create special exemptions for their selves.

The real problem is that people love complaining. If you don't have a police force equipped to take down a suspect who has body armor and an assault rifle (new window), while all they have are handguns and shotguns, then they're incompetent and stupid.

If they invest in the required tools, training, etc. to be able to respond to extreme threats, then suddenly they're an evil military force.

And people will whine and biatch and moan either way. Even if you go out of your way to try and find a happy medium, people will complain.


The trouble with a standing army, as has been known for over 200 years, is that if you have it you have to use it. Too many major cities use their SWAT teams for everything except collecting parking tickets. Police Departments such as NYC's have effectively become armies with troops answerable to no one but the local ruler and immune from the laws that they enforce against the serfs.
 
2011-09-26 08:02:46 PM

SharkTrager: Tymast: badhatharry: I saw that segment on 60 minutes. New York City is so proud of it's incredible security systems. All I could think was that New York City has become an Orwellian nightmare.

Right, i suppose you have another way to deal with terrorists? They do hate us for our freedom after all.

I'm curious. Do you really believe we are seriously threatened by terrorists to a degree that justifies tracking the movements of every citizen of the largest city in the nation, which is precisely what they showed they are capable of doing.



I'll answer that: NFW
 
2011-09-26 09:21:26 PM

dittybopper: Actually, a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, or a similar .30 caliber level gun, would have stopped them by penetrating the vests. Any caliber commonly used for hunting deer, which is a man-sized animal, would have been fine.


You know, there's a reason you show up highlighted in a nice green; you can always be counted on for logic, reason and "common" sense.

What the fark are you doing on Fark?

/ As someone who lived in the area during that clusterfark, everything about it, from LAPD's mishandling to the media's misreporting was a sick joke.
// I still ain't laughing.
 
2011-09-26 09:46:41 PM

Sgt.Zim: dittybopper: Actually, a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, or a similar .30 caliber level gun, would have stopped them by penetrating the vests. Any caliber commonly used for hunting deer, which is a man-sized animal, would have been fine.

You know, there's a reason you show up highlighted in a nice green; you can always be counted on for logic, reason and "common" sense.

What the fark are you doing on Fark?


Just farking around. I promised never to use my powers for personal gain.
 
2011-09-26 09:51:35 PM

eas81: Hell Santrini air has to be somewhere around there?


Castillo from Miami Vice had his own airwolf in 1986...

www.abnormal.com
 
2011-09-26 11:42:17 PM
.00001% of Americans died on 9/11, really it's time for us to move on.
 
2011-09-27 06:33:12 PM
It doesn't explicitly say they got missiles. What if they got access to a Phalanx weapon system instead? That would be pretty awesome.
 
2011-09-28 09:26:20 PM

Uncle Wiggly: Awesome T-Shirt: Uncle Wiggly: Well, NYFD has those little boats with those little squirter things.

Wanna know how I know you don't live anywhere near NY?

Sorry. It's a joke. I had model FDNY fireboats when I was kid; they were awesome. I'm just farking with fire guys.


Don't do it again. You may give one of them a heart attack.
 
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