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(Guardian)   Atlas publisher says Greenland has lost 150 times more ice than reality   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 129
    More: Fail, atlas, Greenland, Greenland Ice Sheet, cubic metres, ice caps, mapmakers, historical periods, climate change  
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6288 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Sep 2011 at 9:27 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-09-20 09:03:36 AM  
**Shrug** (new window)
 
2011-09-20 09:29:38 AM  
The whole climate change scam continues to unravel. Pretty bad when polls show 70% of the population realize it is bullshiat and we still have these idiots running around claiming the world is going to end.
 
2011-09-20 09:34:04 AM  
FTFA: Several researchers said the atlas's authors may have confused ice thickness with ice extent, defining the ice sheet margin at 500m high (the contour) and colouring brown and pink anything below 500m.

Its almost as if the map had some kind unified color scheme that places mountain tops in white, but lower-lying areas in more earthy tones.....

...like every other map on the face of the planet.
 
2011-09-20 09:34:21 AM  
It's about time we saw some of that green.
 
2011-09-20 09:38:41 AM  
Tsk tsk-It's those crazy deniers again, just shills for Big Oil
 
2011-09-20 09:46:22 AM  
Dear Cartographers,

Only we're allowed to exaggerate global warming claims.

Scientists
 
2011-09-20 09:48:36 AM  
Have we ever asked what the great people of Nuuk, Greenland wanted? Maybe they want the ice to melt so they can build more soccer stadiums in order to host the 2020 Summer Olympics or the 2026 FIFA World Cup. Link (Greenland United - new window)
 
2011-09-20 09:50:39 AM  

doubled99: Tsk tsk-It's those crazy deniers again, just shills for Big Oil


No doubt. Our greenhouse gases have gotten so bad, it is melting the polar caps on Mars!
 
2011-09-20 09:50:48 AM  

lordaction: The whole climate change scam continues to unravel


The article is about actual climate scientists pointing out a mistake that a cartographer made. How can even an obsessive conspiracy theorist like you interpret this as evidence that climate change is a scam?
 
2011-09-20 09:52:09 AM  
It's not a lie if it advances the cause.
 
2011-09-20 09:52:41 AM  
15% turns out to be the giant unemployment rate, not the rate of ice sheet decay.
 
2011-09-20 09:53:55 AM  
Well you have to expect the cartographers to change something...otherwise no one would need to buy a new atlas.
 
2011-09-20 09:54:51 AM  

Gunther: lordaction: The whole climate change scam continues to unravel

The article is about actual climate scientists pointing out a mistake that a cartographer made. How can even an obsessive conspiracy theorist like you interpret this as evidence that climate change is a scam?


www.cartoonstock.com
 
2011-09-20 09:55:24 AM  

there4igraham: It's about time we saw some of that green.


please please don`t let the green threadshiatter post. He does more for the side he argues against. Like Bevets or Al Gore.....
 
2011-09-20 09:56:08 AM  
Meanwhile, arctic sea ice reached its second lowest extent (new window) since measurements began in 1979.

Serreze said that in 2007, the year of record low Arctic sea ice, there was a "nearly perfect" set-up of specific weather conditions. Winds pushed in more warm air over the Arctic than usual, helping to melt sea ice, and winds also pushed the floating ice chunks together into a smaller area. "It is interesting that this year, the second lowest sea ice extent ever recorded, that we didn't see that kind of weather pattern at all," he said.
 
2011-09-20 10:01:11 AM  

lordaction: The whole climate change scam continues to unravel. Pretty bad when polls show 70% of the population realize it is bullshiat and we still have these idiots running around claiming the world is going to end.


Neocon robo-shill for the win!

You didn't even bother looking at the article before your chimed in there, did you sklippy?

You just saw something about Greenland's ice melting and you went straight away into rightwing fairy tale propaganda mode, didn't you?

But gee, you got us. I guess we can tell all our lackeys to turn off the electric heaters melting all those glaciers world wide and shrinking the arctic icecap, because of course we would deliberately alter so much of Earth's ice pack across millions of square miles just to screw with you oh-so-righteous know-it-all republicans..
 
2011-09-20 10:02:31 AM  

lordaction: The whole climate change scam continues to unravel.


Do you ever actually read the articles, or just comment on them ignorantly?
 
2011-09-20 10:04:12 AM  

doubled99: Tsk tsk-It's those crazy deniers again, just shills for Big Oil


You didn't make the "D" a capital. It's "Deniers" not "deniers." That's important. It helps to dehumanize and psychological define the Deniers as the Other and the Enemy, and helps keep the warmist faithful in line.
 
2011-09-20 10:05:46 AM  

pnome: 15% turns out to be the giant unemployment rate, not the rate of ice sheet decay.


I see what you did there.
 
2011-09-20 10:07:00 AM  
Denmark shrugs, walks away hoping the 15% was true.

Stupid big ice chunk....
 
2011-09-20 10:10:54 AM  

Dhusk: lordaction: The whole climate change scam continues to unravel. Pretty bad when polls show 70% of the population realize it is bullshiat and we still have these idiots running around claiming the world is going to end.

Neocon robo-shill for the win!

You didn't even bother looking at the article before your chimed in there, did you sklippy?

You just saw something about Greenland's ice melting and you went straight away into rightwing fairy tale propaganda mode, didn't you?

But gee, you got us. I guess we can tell all our lackeys to turn off the electric heaters melting all those glaciers world wide and shrinking the arctic icecap, because of course we would deliberately alter so much of Earth's ice pack across millions of square miles just to screw with you oh-so-righteous know-it-all republicans..


Don't hold the angst in - let it all out.
 
2011-09-20 10:14:08 AM  

The Loaf: FTFA: Several researchers said the atlas's authors may have confused ice thickness with ice extent, defining the ice sheet margin at 500m high (the contour) and colouring brown and pink anything below 500m.

Its almost as if the map had some kind unified color scheme that places mountain tops in white, but lower-lying areas in more earthy tones.....

...like every other map on the face of the planet.


Yeah that totally explains the error on the polar ice cap too.
 
2011-09-20 10:22:58 AM  

aerojockey: Dear Cartographers,

Only we're allowed to exaggerate global warming claims.

Scientists Climate Modelers *VOGUE*VOGUE*VOGUE*VOGUE*


FTFY
 
2011-09-20 10:26:32 AM  

Gunther: lordaction: The whole climate change scam continues to unravel

The article is about actual climate scientists pointing out a mistake that a cartographer made. How can even an obsessive conspiracy theorist like you interpret this as evidence that climate change is a scam?


Yup, deniers really are that stupid.

Scientists correct the exaggerations of non-scientists and deniers somehow are able to twist this in their own heads that this is further proof of scientists being corrupt.

/the war on science continues
 
2011-09-20 10:26:39 AM  

lordaction: The whole climate change scam continues to unravel. Pretty bad when polls show 70% of the population realize it is bullshiat and we still have these idiots running around claiming the world is going to end.


If it was Dick Cheney instead of Al Gore as the High Priest of the Global Warming Religion, would all of the "scientists" so dependent on government climate study grants go along with the theory?

Our government has proven it can't control the borders, maintain existing roads and bridges or raise student's test scores (without cheating), but we must believe, without question or further scientific study, that they can control the climate.
 
2011-09-20 10:26:58 AM  

Ivo Shandor: Meanwhile, arctic sea ice reached its second lowest extent (new window) since measurements began in 1979.

Serreze said that in 2007, the year of record low Arctic sea ice, there was a "nearly perfect" set-up of specific weather conditions. Winds pushed in more warm air over the Arctic than usual, helping to melt sea ice, and winds also pushed the floating ice chunks together into a smaller area. "It is interesting that this year, the second lowest sea ice extent ever recorded, that we didn't see that kind of weather pattern at all," he said.


1979??? Isn't that like, before the beginning of time? [Sarcasm off]

Seriously, we don't really have reliable Arctic Sea Ice measurements from before that time, so it's hard to know if this is cyclical, long-term or what. I don't think 32 years is long enough to draw a long-term conclusion on a planet that's 4,600,000,000 years old.
 
2011-09-20 10:29:33 AM  
The important thing to realize here is that the planet is dying and the time for panic was long ago. Who cares if it takes fudging the numbers a bit to get people to panic properly? The end justifies the means.
 
2011-09-20 10:35:28 AM  
Solve all the worlds woes by euthanising 75% of the population.

Or in the case of not being able to do that, restrict everyones opportunities to breed; To have a child, you must apply for a license. Offering of a license depends on genetic viability, intelligence and how many kids you already have. If you breed without one, you are chemically sterilised.
 
2011-09-20 10:42:38 AM  

lordaction: The whole climate change scam continues to unravel. Pretty bad when polls show 70% of the population realize it is bullshiat and we still have these idiots running around claiming the world is going to end.


There are three things wrong with this.

One, if it were a scam, it would not be climate scientists jumping on geographers to point out that they have erred by exaggerating ice loss, it would be petroleum engineers with a degree in climate science denial. Scammers, liars, hoaxers, propagandists, idealogues would be quite happy to accept and propagate exaggerations because that is what exaggerators and propagandists do: exaggerate and propagandize without regard for the facts.

Two, The polls do not show that 70% of the population realize it is bullshiat. On the contrary, the percentage of people who accept the consensus of climate science is even more than 70% in the latest polls.

Three, no one is running around claiming that the world will end. The IPCC predicts that the global mean temperature will rise somewhere between 1C (unlikely) to 4C (quite likely) or more (less likely). They believe that we can and must hold the total rise to 2C or suffer economic, ecological and political consequences which are undesirable.

The probabilitiy smear is a beast with a fat little body clumped around 2-4C rise over the XXIst century and a long thick tail. It is shaped sort of like a squirrel.

It may look something like this (simplified)

Chance we will see a rise of:

0-1 degree 10%
1-2 degrees 30%
2-4 degrees 20%
4 degrees 15%
5 degrees 10%
6 degrees 10%
7 degrees 5%
More than 7 degrees 5%

This is not an actual graph, but like 99% of denialist graphs, it will play one on TV.

Still, it gives an idea of what scientists are really saying: they are saying that they are 90% certain we'll see heat and enough heat to change the world's climates in many unfortunate ways. A few areas will see little change, many areas will see an increase in "active weather" and catastrophic flooding, drought, fires, etc.

Apart from that, your post is correct. The spelling checks out. No red lines except under the euphemism bullshiat.

To tell the truth, I thought some bits of that map looked shaky. There was too much brown along the Northern coast. I haven't seen that in any current or past map.

Possibly, however, the cartographers have an explanation. Perhaps they were projecting future melt upon the basis of some legitimate source. Perhaps their definition of "permanent" is very strict. Perhaps the resolution of the map does not permit showing small glaciers or mountain caps.

I do not know. However, I see this as another vindication of science, peer review and climatology, because this quick response from the experts is precisely the kind of thing that honest, critical thinkers do. It is not what conspiracy theorists and denialists and cranks do. Everything is grist to the conspiracy mill, even blatant and errant nonsense.
 
2011-09-20 10:46:31 AM  
Are Atlases still published? How quaint.

www.whatisesl.net

Seems so 1950.
 
2011-09-20 10:46:45 AM  

trappedspirit: The important thing to realize here is that the planet is dying and the time for panic was long ago. Who cares if it takes fudging the numbers a bit to get people to panic properly? The end justifies the means.


The planet is only believed to be dying by those people who are fudging the numbers. The rest of us are still trying to recycle a little more, use a little less energy to save money and trying to continue to live a first-world lifestyle in a first world country.

Why some people are fudging the numbers could be this:

I do understand that there's a whole slew of people who want nothing more than to see the USA and Europe reduced to 3rd world status economically, and who feel that humans are a plague on this planet, (except themselves I suppose). These people want nothing more than to make the energy and manufacturing that gives us a comfortable, affordable lifestyle so expensive that only a few (by that they mean the deserving ruling class) will be able to afford it.

These elites seem to be extremely ticked that the great unwashed masses seem to be able to afford a small house with a lawn and an automobile or 2 and occasionally vacation at Disney World, while they struggle to afford that 400sq ft apt and can only travel by bus/subway and need to grovel for bike lanes. Until everyone is as "environmentally friendly" (read- beholden to the foibles and schedules of mass transit), as they are they won't rest.

Nothing bothers these elites more that knowing that Goober "Nascar" Jones and his whole family of "breeders" can jump into a car that they own, and drive from Florida to California with cash and bypass the TSA and the governments knowledge of their trip altogether.
 
2011-09-20 10:47:35 AM  

trappedspirit: The important thing to realize here is that the planet is dying and the time for panic was long ago. Who cares if it takes fudging the numbers a bit to get people to panic properly? The end justifies the means.


The stupid is strong with this one.

Nobody with any semblance of intelligence has suggested that the planet is dying. It will be here long after man is dust.

The questions are: Is the climate shifting to something that is going to less hospitable to human life and are we contributing to that shift? The evidence points to an answer of yes to both of those questions ... whether corporate america will admit it or not.
 
2011-09-20 10:49:15 AM  
Argument is over volume vs. surface area. Both sides are correct. Nothing to see here.
 
2011-09-20 10:56:43 AM  
http://www.ipsos-na.com/news-polls/pressrelease.aspx?id=5337

Quote: The recent Reuters/Stanford/Ipsos poll finds a significant increase in the number of Americans who believe the earth has been warming (from 75% in 2010 to 83% now) in the last year. Currently, 83% of all adults say that global warming has been happening while only 15% say they believe that it has not been happening.

Oddly enough, 75% of Republicans believe that warming is happening as well, possibly because a lot of them live in Texas or Ohklahoma.

The only group that seems strongly set against the facts and the science is the Teabaggers, a strong majority of whom deny climate change is happening and that humans play any role in climate change.

This does not surprise me: the Tea Parties (except for one) were largely created by the monies of Koch Industries, which has been spending more money to fight environmentalism and climate change science than Exxon Mobil (for the record, Exxon Mobil's President acknowledges the reality of climate change--the former President continues to deny).

And here's an encouraging factoid: two thirds of major corporations have some sort of climate change planning to protect their business plans from the effects of climate change.

I've seen claims that the recent GOP debates have actually resulted in an increase in people who believe that climate change is happening. No doubt, these are voters who wait until the debates before they begin to pay attention to the issues, and they were not impressed by the denialists on offer by the GOP.

Sadly, this support is fairly weak and changeable. The small number of right wing, male, conservative, Republican or Teabagger, "Christian", middle class, middle aged Americans who are dead set against accepting the scientific facts and arguments have become more certain, while certainty has hardened at the other end of the political spectrum which is statistically more likely to be liberal and female and Democrat.

But if the economy eventually rebounds, it may not be too late to do something when the public is no longer distracted by bread and butter issues such as the risk of losing the house or finding work after a couple years of unemployment, etc.
 
2011-09-20 11:00:24 AM  

Periodic Disorder: Solve all the worlds woes by euthanising 75% of the population.

Or in the case of not being able to do that, restrict everyones opportunities to breed; To have a child, you must apply for a license. Offering of a license depends on genetic viability, intelligence and how many kids you already have. If you breed without one, you are chemically sterilised.


Thanks for proving my point for me. By all means, you go first.
 
2011-09-20 11:02:07 AM  
"Recent satellite images of Greenland make it clear that there are in fact still numerous glaciers and permanent ice cover where the new Times Atlas shows ice-free conditions and the emergence of new lands."

To fight the horde and sing and cry, Valhalla, I am coming!
 
2011-09-20 11:03:49 AM  

brantgoose: lordaction: The whole climate change scam continues to unravel. Pretty bad when polls show 70% of the population realize it is bullshiat and we still have these idiots running around claiming the world is going to end.

There are three things wrong with this.

One, if it were a scam, it would not be climate scientists jumping on geographers to point out that they have erred by exaggerating ice loss, it would be petroleum engineers with a degree in climate science denial. Scammers, liars, hoaxers, propagandists, idealogues would be quite happy to accept and propagate exaggerations because that is what exaggerators and propagandists do: exaggerate and propagandize without regard for the facts.

Two, The polls do not show that 70% of the population realize it is bullshiat. On the contrary, the percentage of people who accept the consensus of climate science is even more than 70% in the latest polls.

Three, no one is running around claiming that the world will end. The IPCC predicts that the global mean temperature will rise somewhere between 1C (unlikely) to 4C (quite likely) or more (less likely). They believe that we can and must hold the total rise to 2C or suffer economic, ecological and political consequences which are undesirable.

The probabilitiy smear is a beast with a fat little body clumped around 2-4C rise over the XXIst century and a long thick tail. It is shaped sort of like a squirrel.

It may look something like this (simplified)

Chance we will see a rise of:

0-1 degree 10%
1-2 degrees 30%
2-4 degrees 20%
4 degrees 15%
5 degrees 10%
6 degrees 10%
7 degrees 5%
More than 7 degrees 5%

This is not an actual graph, but like 99% of denialist graphs, it will play one on TV.

Still, it gives an idea of what scientists are really saying: they are saying that they are 90% certain we'll see heat and enough heat to change the world's climates in many unfortunate ways. A few areas will see little change, many areas will see an increase in "active weather" and catastrophic flooding, drought, fires, etc.

Apart from that, your post is correct. The spelling checks out. No red lines except under the euphemism bullshiat.

To tell the truth, I thought some bits of that map looked shaky. There was too much brown along the Northern coast. I haven't seen that in any current or past map.

Possibly, however, the cartographers have an explanation. Perhaps they were projecting future melt upon the basis of some legitimate source. Perhaps their definition of "permanent" is very strict. Perhaps the resolution of the map does not permit showing small glaciers or mountain caps.

I do not know. However, I see this as another vindication of science, peer review and climatology, because this quick response from the experts is precisely the kind of thing that honest, critical thinkers do. It is not what conspiracy theorists and denialists and cranks do. Everything is grist to the conspiracy mill, even blatant and errant nonsense.


"One, if it were a scam, it would not be climate scientists jumping on geographers to point out that they have erred by exaggerating ice loss, it would be petroleum engineers with a degree in climate science denial."

According to TFA, it isn't climate scientists jumping on the geographers, it's Glaciologists doing so. I think there's a difference there.
 
2011-09-20 11:06:40 AM  

brantgoose: http://www.ipsos-na.com/news-polls/pressrelease.aspx?id=5337

Quote: The recent Reuters/Stanford/Ipsos poll finds a significant increase in the number of Americans who believe the earth has been warming (from 75% in 2010 to 83% now) in the last year. Currently, 83% of all adults say that global warming has been happening while only 15% say they believe that it has not been happening.

Poorly interpreted derpity derpity derp deleted


Here's the information you want from your own article, but feel free to derp on.

Here the political polarization of the issue is more apparent: 37% of Democrats believe global warming is the result primarily of human action, while only 14% of Republicans believe this. Conversely, 43% of Republicans believe global warming is the result of natural causes, up from 35% in 2010. Self-identified Tea Party members display still more certainty (49%) that global warming is caused by natural events.

The majority of all party people believe that global warming is a natural, not man-made event. According to your link.
 
2011-09-20 11:21:47 AM  

lordaction: The whole climate change scam continues to unravel.


doubled99: Tsk tsk-It's those crazy deniers again, just shills for Big Oil


aerojockey: Dear Cartographers,

Only we're allowed to exaggerate global warming claims.

Scientists


minoridiot: Our greenhouse gases have gotten so bad, it is melting the polar caps on Mars!


bookman: You didn't make the "D" a capital. It's "Deniers" not "deniers." That's important. It helps to dehumanize and psychological define the Deniers as the Other and the Enemy, and helps keep the warmist faithful in line.


*sigh*
 
2011-09-20 11:27:30 AM  

Flash_NYC: Ivo Shandor: Meanwhile, arctic sea ice reached its second lowest extent (new window) since measurements began in 1979.

Serreze said that in 2007, the year of record low Arctic sea ice, there was a "nearly perfect" set-up of specific weather conditions. Winds pushed in more warm air over the Arctic than usual, helping to melt sea ice, and winds also pushed the floating ice chunks together into a smaller area. "It is interesting that this year, the second lowest sea ice extent ever recorded, that we didn't see that kind of weather pattern at all," he said.

1979??? Isn't that like, before the beginning of time? [Sarcasm off]

Seriously, we don't really have reliable Arctic Sea Ice measurements from before that time, so it's hard to know if this is cyclical, long-term or what. I don't think 32 years is long enough to draw a long-term conclusion on a planet that's 4,600,000,000 6,000 years old.


FTFY
 
jvl
2011-09-20 11:27:53 AM  
Good on the climate guys for jumping on the cartographers on this. We need more of that -- especially in threads about Texas heat waves.
 
2011-09-20 11:29:40 AM  

lordaction: The whole climate change scam continues to unravel. Pretty bad when polls show 70% of the population realize it is bullshiat and we still have these idiots running around claiming the world is going to end.


lordaction leaned back in his chair.
A new post was created, as what he tended to view as another finely crafted piece of work, a provocative poetry for the an internet world.
Another day's worth of great work, accomplished in less than 40 words, unexpectedly.

lordaction waited for the responses to roll in, his grand yet simple mission seemingly entirely accomplished. A group of self-obsessed forum dwellers were riled and a fervor of click, refreshes, potential ad revenues and potential resource-abuse firings (a schadenfreudic personal joy of his) had begun anew. The reason truly mattered not; lordaction's true feelings on global warming were completely apart from any post he ever bothered to make under this account. That is how things were, that is how they are.
He had done this dance many times before; lordaction knew that all he had to do was wait for the posts to appear and the reactions to an obvious bait to follow .

lordaction loved his hobby. So much so, that calling it his job would probably seem like a compliment. It was a melancholic glee, to be sure. But one that he was destined to see again, again and again.

Thus is the tale of the daily life of yet another Fark Independent.
 
2011-09-20 11:33:59 AM  
So she prefers length to thickness?
 
2011-09-20 11:38:07 AM  

Flash_NYC: 1979??? Isn't that like, before the beginning of time? [Sarcasm off]

Seriously, we don't really have reliable Arctic Sea Ice measurements from before that time, so it's hard to know if this is cyclical, long-term or what. I don't think 32 years is long enough to draw a long-term conclusion


The satellite record for Arctic sea ice extent only goes back to 1979. Does that mean we have no data about it prior? Of course not. Sea ice extent was documented via in situ observations and aerial reconnaissance well before[1][2].

img840.imageshack.us

And prior to the observational record, there is a wealth of paleoclimatic data stretching back much further, thousands of years[3].

So what do people who study past and present Arctic sea ice for a living actually say?

The current reduction in Arctic ice cover started in the late 19th century, consistent with the rapidly warming climate, and became very pronounced over the last three decades. This ice loss appears to be unmatched over at least the last few thousand years

Flash_NYC: on a planet that's 4,600,000,000 years old.


What does the absolute age of the Earth have to do with anything? There had never been nuclear weapons detonated on Earth prior to humans doing so in the 20th century- that doesn't mean that you can't say that with confidence because we lack an atmospheric record of the entirety of Earth's history. We don't have to talk about the entirety of Earth's history to talk about the systems we're influencing now.

Have there ever been periods when polar sea ice has been reduced more than now, or declined faster? Of course. But that has zero bearing on the attribution of the current decline to our warming of the climate system.

[1] Rayner, N.A., et al. (2003): Global analyses of sea surface temperature, sea ice, and night marine air temperature since the late nineteenth century. Journal of Geophysical Research, 108(D14), 4407, doi:10.1029/2002JD002670.
[2] Kinnard, C., et al. (2008): A changing Arctic seasonal ice zone: Observations from 1870-2003 and possible oceanographic consequences. Geophysical Research Letters, 35, L02507, doi:10.1029/2007GL032507.
[3] Polyack, L., et al., (2010): History of sea ice in the Arctic, Quaternary Science Reviews, 29, 15-16, 1757-1778, doi:10.1016/j.quascirev.2010.02.010
 
2011-09-20 11:38:47 AM  
these types of false claims are to be expected.

twas ever thus.
 
2011-09-20 11:42:20 AM  
If you bother to read the article...

Map makers - 15% of the ice is gone! Glacier experts - no, it's 0.1%. You're off by quite a bit there Skippy. Map makers - global warming!
 
2011-09-20 11:52:52 AM  
It's hard to tell but looking at the top corner I think the publisher is Signet.
farm4.static.flickr.com
 
2011-09-20 11:58:27 AM  

Otto_E_Rodika: If you bother to read the article...

Map makers - 15% of the ice is gone! Glacier experts - no, it's 0.1%. You're off by quite a bit there Skippy. Map makers - global warming!


And if you bother to read the thread:

"Climate Change Believers" - global warming caused by humans mostly in USA and Europe who insist on a standard of living higher than a 3rd world, and that there's too many humans period.

"Climate Change Deniers" - global warming may be the result of complex interrelated feedback mechanisms that aren't fully understood enough to state with certainty if the the 0.8 degree Celsius rise in average global temperature, (if it's even possible to measure that accurately) over the last 100 years can be attributed to natural or man-made phenomena and in what proportion thereof with any degree of certainty.

"Climate Change Believers" - You deniers are all anti-science idiots! We're all gonna die!! Unless... We need to tax CO2!!! We need to tax fossil fuels more!!! We need to re-distribute wealth!!! Only then will we have solved the issue.
 
2011-09-20 12:16:26 PM  

Flash_NYC: "Climate Change Believers" - global warming caused by humans mostly in USA and Europe who insist on a standard of living higher than a 3rd world, and that there's too many humans period.

"Climate Change Deniers" - global warming may be the result of complex interrelated feedback mechanisms that aren't fully understood enough to state with certainty if the the 0.8 degree Celsius rise in average global temperature, (if it's even possible to measure that accurately) over the last 100 years can be attributed to natural or man-made phenomena and in what proportion thereof with any degree of certainty.

"Climate Change Believers" - You deniers are all anti-science idiots! We're all gonna die!! Unless... We need to tax CO2!!! We need to tax fossil fuels more!!! We need to re-distribute wealth!!! Only then will we have solved the issue.


That's some FOX-worthy spin right there, brother.
 
2011-09-20 12:17:04 PM  

Flash_NYC: I don't think 32 years is long enough to draw a long-term conclusion on a planet that's 4,600,000,000 years old.


So vote Republican.

32 years of arctic ice measurements, taken in the context of a whole bunch of other sciencey stuff, are enough to give us a pretty good sense of where we are headed over the next few decades. Enough that companies are planning new shipping routes through the arctic, and are staking claims for oil and mineral resources beneath the sea.

There are also a couple of positive-feedback systems at play here. The reduced ice cover will lead to more sunlight being absorbed by the darker ocean waters, and melting ice will lead to releases of methane from underwater deposits and from decaying vegetation on land. Whether or not scientists have correctly estimated the magnitude of these effects, they know that they are pushing the system in the "hotter" direction. So is the increased CO2 from humans burning fossil fuels (which, incidentally, is also making the oceans dangerously acidic for some shellfish and corals). All of this is on top of a long-term natural warming trend as we come out of the last ice age, and a much-longer-term (billions of years) gradual increase in the sun's intensity.

As for the long-term conclusion, George Carlin said it best: "The planet is fine. The people are f*cked".
 
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