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ComicBookGuy: Coco LaFemme: didn't think terrorism initially (who the hell knew at that time what was going on?)

Wow. Really??? You thought the second plane hitting the OTHER undamaged World Trade Center tower on a flawless day might be a wild coincidence?

Did I say that? No, I don't believe I did. What I said was, I didn't think "ZOMG Osama bin Laden and his cohorts in Al-Qaeda have orchestrated a planned terrorist exercise on New York City, Washington D.C., and rural Pennsylvania! What horror!"

Believe it or not, the idea that hijackers could take over two airplanes and fly them into skyscrapers in the middle of the largest city in the United States was NOT something at the forefront of my mind, nor should it have been AT THAT MOMENT.

Trapper439: It had two massive great fark-off buildings fall down next to it.

For an exercise, look up the mass of the towers, and figure out how much kinetic energy is released by dropping that mass half the height of the WTC; that's the approximate energy released into the ground next door. Convert to sticks of dynamite for reference.

The formula is E=(m)(g)(Δs), where m is mass, g is the ~9.8 m/(s2), and Δs the height of the fall, which on average is half the WTC height. (The foolish can do the calculus to integrate and show its the same result.)

A kilo of dynamite going bang releases about 7.5 megajoules.

Confabulat: A look at TV coverage of that day (new window)

Give it up to Fox News for figuring stuff out quick while the BBC News twerps were all "Hmm how very odd that two such plane accidents might be occurring at roughly the same time"

Wow. That's incredible. I didn't know that existed.

I worked at 4WTC...but not that day.

mat catastrophe: Too bad there were no fark threads for the bombing of the pharmaceutical factory in Sudan in 1998, or for the civilians killed during the Persian Gulf War, or the retreating troops bulldozed over and buried alive....

Or the civillians killed in the last decade in Afghanistan, Iraq, and any one of the two dozen or so other nations where we're illegally operating black ops drone raids.

But, whatever, wave that flag. Our dead are the only dead that count.

Welcome to Fark

Gulper Eel: Thanks, modmins, for not using the word "anniversary" like the rest of the journohacks.

"Anniversary"? Sounds like the Queen's English to me.

10 years in, and every year I get more pissed off than the year prior. I wish I could take credit for this analogy, but I can't -- someone else posted it on a different site yesterday: it's like your parents died in a graphic car crash they happened to get on video. So every year, the local news station decided to air the video of them being killed because it was so "important" -- read "people like raw events caught on film and it's important because it drives ratings." So every year, you lose the chance to grieve in your own way, and are dragged right back to the video of the thing, like it was yesterday.

Normal people don't revel in video of their loved ones dying. But voyeurs hundreds or thousands of miles away, with no real connection to the event other than that they vaguely get it would come to be "important" to their "way of life," well they want to see the video. Again. and Again. and Again.

Go talk to someone who was standing in lower Manhattan that morning, or in the D ring of the Pentagon, and ask them what it was like to end up with PTSD from the morning's events. Ask them how they avoid fireworks displays now, or how 10 years later the smell of crushed concrete and burned plastic still gives them panic attacks. Ask them how much they like having the videos run on a ceaseless loop from the last week in August through 9/11 every year, or plastered on the mainpage of websites, or splashed up on the jumbotron at NFL games. Ask them how much it aids their personal grieving and healing process to be dragged back through it when doing something as mundane as trying to check the weather in the morning for several weeks on end. And then see if you still want to tell them how you watched it in homeroom in Kansas and it made you sad and how you still can't believe what you saw on the TV.

We should mark the day -- because it did change us all -- but I pray that this ritualistic media schadenfreude stops after this year.

I was camping in Colorado from the 9th through the 14th. It was a nice punch to the stomach when I finally flipped on the radio.

Ennuipoet: Once today is done, can we move forward instead of endlessly repeating this day each year? Can we work on healing these wounds instead of picking at the scars until they bleed? Can we learn to live with grief instead of waving it a like a flag? The dead of 9/11 can't rest easy because we keep digging them up every year.

really?
strange
because I dont feel that at all.
the event changed everyones life. the living and the dead.
for the better and for the worse.

by talking about those change, by remembering, that is the only way that we have hope in making changes which can prevent them from happening again in future

remembering history is the only way that we have any hope of endlessly repeating the past.

/alas, the fascist learned a completely different lesson than the one I learned

Porous Horace: Those memorials are wasting large chunks of incredibly valuable real estate. Wouldn't a plaque be good enough?

No, because the point is to remind people about how terribly frightening those "terrists" are, and how we have to live in abject fear the rest of our lives. Oh, yeah, and spend billions on weapons of destruction to fight "them" off forever.

The message? THOSE HORRIBLE BROWN PEOPLE WILL BLAST US AGAIN IF WE EVER LET DOWN OUR GUARD! WE MUST CONTINUE TO HATE AND KILL THEM - BUY MORE GUNS/TANKS/ETC!

And, whatever you do, don't look behind the curtain...it's too scary.

Begoggle: PsiChi:

You get my special color for "truther retard"

you can use BLACK as a color (I have only used red, green and ignore so far)
:D

Unemployed. Sitting at home playing Yahoo Pool. Wife called me from work, asked me if I was watching TV. Turned it on, spent 3 hours on the phone with her watching shiat get real.

/Still seems surreal.

NCRider: As sad and as farked up as that day was, I don't think any of us could envision the insanity of the next few years:

- I still recall how strange it was in the days following 9/11. Flags popped up everywhere. No planes in the sky anywhere.
- We'd know it was Al Qaeda, know they had ties to Afghanistan, then attack Afghanistan. Yet, we'd ignore the other countries that had bigger roles in Al Qaeda (Saudi Arabia, for example).
- We'd make a big case about Iraq, then invade them. For the first time in our history, the USA *started* a war.
- We'd enact a whole new set of rules about flying and de-privatize security screeners. The TSA was born.
- Build the Dept of Homeland Security and revamp the CIA, FBI and NSA
- Proceed to build the biggest staff of federal employees ever
- Build secret offshore prisons
- The US would approve torture of prisoners

I'm sure there's more. But I can't continue. It saddens me what we did to ourselves after 9/11.

Not only that but it morphed from the Palestine Liberation Front claiming responsibility that morning to it being "Al Queda" later. That the CIA and other administration officials would admit that Cheney and Bush knew of the attack ahead of time. That the Taliban, today, would state they offered up Osama before 9/11. That the wars started by Bush and the de-regulation of industry during his term would lead to a collapse that took down the global economy.

clowncar on fire: I'm going to float an idea here- one that may both anger and intrigue my fellow Farkers. However, I feel it's timing could never be more appropriate than now. Maybe it's been a whisper that's been in the minds of many people but to say it out loud would have been heresy. I'm going to go there, without the usual sugar and flavoring that would accompany such a bitter thought: It's time we put 9-11 in the coffin and give it a proper burial.

You said it better than I did. Agree 100%

I was woken up by my clock radio as someone was announcing that there was something major happening in New York. When I heard that a plane had hit the north tower, my first thought was that it was an accident such as what happened with the Empire state building decades ago. I was downstairs with the TV on when they IDed that flight as an American flight. I got that horrible insides-twisted-in-a-tight-knot feeling when I heard that, because my brother flies for American, and back then he did those early morning NY/Boston/LA routes. So I started making phone calls. Fortunately he was off that day. But somebody else's brother wasn't.

Reading a few quotes made by political leaders and celebrities surrounding 9/11 made me feel for those social outliers that might not have had their voice heard and, perhaps, immortalized.

So, in the vein of that, I present:

I wasn't alive during Pearl Harbor and I still remember that day. Guess what? Whether you like it or not, clowncar on fire, important events in history tend to be remembered. Sure, it's certainly perspective -- I'm pretty certain England doesn't have a "Yankee Terrorism Remembrance" day on the 4th of July, but they certainly did not forget just a decade later, so much so they satyed pretty pissed off at us for some time. No one ten years after the Civil War was quite yet ready to gloss the whole thing over because the awfulness might be a little upsetting. Some aren't ready to forget that to this day. Suggesting Americans tone things down to the point where ten years later 9-11-01 should be for private personal reflection, everyone hush, don't upset anyone's precious feelings, is insulting at the very least. This is why we no longer have parades on Veteran's Day.

Just a little more bad news while you're trying to deflect any meaning from 9-11-01 by turning it into a farking toast, while you want everyone to be quiet and hush, there are folks overseas wishing they too can post on Fark in their best Oprah impersonation, but damn it, sniper abatement duty again, damn. Ask them to tone it down a bit too. Their answer might be upsetting though and like you say the last thing anyone wants is anyone to be upset. Think of your snowflakes!

No high-browed pontifications with an aire of intellectual and educational pomposity I don't find you heartless, I find you sadly placing vapidly superficially personal emotional discomfort as the basis for Americans to just poo-poo away 9-11 into a day not of infamy ( I so went there ) but of store-buster sales and cook-outs.

/I can be verbose too, and I also can be farking on the money

I was in college in Reno, UNR. My buddies and I were hauling ass with joy to get to the quad because that's where assassin sign-ups were. Essentially, you get your picture taken and list your classes and when and where they are. Then you're given a super-soaker, someone other guy's picture, and his classes. We were going nuts over it for weeks, got blueprints of buildings including utility tunnels & maint exits, the works.

We get there and people are all talking about the planes, it was insane, we ran into the nearest building with a tv and watched it for awhile before going back to the quad where assassins was being canceled immediately.

Warthog: 10 years in, and every year I get more pissed off than the year prior. ..........

We should mark the day -- because it did change us all -- but I pray that this ritualistic media schadenfreude stops after this year.

What pisses me off is how this tragedy was so shamelessly exploited by various politicians, the con-job of the Iraq war being #1 on my shiat list.

I was there for the attacks, a few blocks north. The first building came damn close to falling on me.

I can't really put into words the emotions surrounding the event itself. I felt something incredible when the first tower came down. Kind of like if the moon suddenly disappeared. The towers were a useful navigation device, you always knew what way was downtown by looking for them. Suddenly they were gone, and that moment of realizing they were really gone sank home pretty hard.

There are a lot of terrible images that stick with you after that, but generally you have to just let them go. There isn't really any point talking about them.

The image that sticks with me the most actually happened a few weeks later. I was at a party in Brooklyn with some friends, all of whom had lived downtown. We were trying to pass around a joint, but we couldn't keep the smoke down. We were all coughing up blood because pulverized glass was in our lungs. Puff, cough up blood, pass. Puff, cough up blood, pass. etc...

Probably_From_Texas: shanteyman: Once today is done, can we move forward instead of endlessly repeating this day each year? Can we work on healing these wounds instead of picking at the scars until they bleed? Can we learn to live with grief instead of waving it a like a flag? The dead of 9/11 can't rest easy because we keep digging them up every year.

THIS !

I'm so sick of the national angst year after year after year about the Sept. 11 attacks. I wonder what my mom and dad, who were married one year before Pearl Harbor, would make of their children's and grandchildren's incessant hand-wringing and whining about one attack against this country. We've been fighting this war since at least 1983 ( remember the Marine Barracks in Beruit ?)and I'm sure there will be other attacks just as gruesome as the World Trade Center and Pentagon. We should do what my parents did ; get up off the ground, dust off, and move forward with the steely resolve that we will not rest until we achieve victory.

Morons, all of you. People still visit the Arizona memorial on December 7th. People still come to Hiroshima on aug 6th. Its called remembrance. This is a fresh event. It will fade in time, but, until then, shut your mealy mouths and let those who want to grieve, grieve. If someones pain pisses you off so much, maybe you are the problem, not them.

I wasn't living in NYC on 9/11/01, but I'm going to hop on the subway to lower Manhattan later on to see what's doing down there. Yesterday when I was thinking about this, I became embarrassed by the fact that I feel a bit voyeuristic about it, but then again, I really shouldn't feel that way. This is part of our history now. It's huge. It's changed all of us, it destroyed our innocence as a nation. It's an important event that children will be learning about in school for 100, maybe 200 years hence, all things being equal of course.

I'll go this afternoon probably. Wait until the crowds die down a bit.

hardinparamedic: PsiChi: FlashHarry: PsiChi: truthergarrbl

and heeeeere we go....

seriously, though - there's no way - no way - a conspiracy that large could happen without a leak.

the government was incompetent. that's the extent of it.

the only plausible "inside job" conspiracy would be that somebody in the govt knew there would be a hijacking and thought it might be a good way to go into iraq. i can't believe that anyone would willingly engineer something as insanely complicated and deadly as 9/11.

Harry, the leaks are the witnesses. Here is a video (and I'm sorry, even though it has English subtitles and interviews, there is a German voiceover) that shows the editor-in-chief of the Pittsburgh Gazette. He, and others, say that, when they arrived at the "crash site" of Flight 93, there was no plane and there were no bodies. "A Boeing 757 has disappeared, including its passengers." How do you explain that?

"Secrecy was the requirement of the hour."

Just because something is too horrible to believe doesn't mean it's not true.

Just, out of curiosity (and to prove a theory), what's your feelings on Big Pharma?

They'll basically do anything to sell a pill. The last I heard, 100,000 people or more a year die from the side effect of pharmaceutical drugs. Here's something from Alternet:

[snip]

Daniela Perdomo: Your book includes some staggering stats. For example, 100,000 Americans die each year from prescription drugs - that's 270 per day, or, as you put it, more than twice as many who are killed in car accidents each day. Could you elaborate on this? Are these people abusing their prescription drugs or is this a sign of prescription meds gone bad?

Melody Petersen: The study estimating that 100,000 Americans die each year from their prescriptions looked only at deaths from known side effects. That is, those deaths didn't happen because the doctor made a mistake and prescribed the wrong drug, or the pharmacist made a mistake in filling the prescription, or the patient accidentally took too much. Unfortunately, thousands of patients die from such mistakes too, but this study looked only at deaths where our present medical system wouldn't fault anyone. Tens of thousands of people are dying every year from drugs they took just as the doctor directed. This shows you how dangerous medications are.

[snip]

To the Farker who wanted links to debunking 9/11 Truthers:

Even Cracked magazine can skewer them:

But the best place to start is with Popular Mechanics. I bought the book this week, but the web site is pretty darn good: Link (new window)

I actually turned a Truther around this week. He still hates Bush, but no longer goes along with the pre-wired demolition garbage.

I'll go along with the notion that the Bush administration used 9/11 to go into Iraq, but no way 9/11 was some genius master plan by the US government to steer the country into war with Muslims.

OmegaStauf 2001-09-11 07:29:27 PM

This act upon us could cause us to become a facist state and cause us to abuse our power.

one of the last comments in the thread that day (before drew locked it)

never has a more prophetic statement been made on fark

I was watching Regis and Kathy Lee, of all things. Like a lot of other Farkers, I thought of the bomber incident with the Empire State Building, and said "Not again!". They were discussing the fire and viewing a live feed, and that's when the South Tower got hit.

That, of course changed everything. Regis called for a flip to a news feed, and I watched WABC news long enough to watch the first of the tower collapses - damned surreal, that was. I kept thinking "Not a movie, this is real life, OMG!"

Then I got on a bus to school, where we students and staff spent all our time watching CBC News on a TV with rabbit ears, and trying to get a good connection to web sites and internet radio news regarding NYC. That was my first use of internet radio, BTW. The other tower had collapsed by the time I got there, and that's where I found out the Pentagon got hit.

The main thing we were all thinking was "Where does it end? What fresh hell are we getting next ?" What an awful feeling that was, and still gives me a twinge in the guts as I'm writing this. I really, REALLY don't want to see any news flashes today, on this site or anywhere else.

haeferlkafe: I always expect the government to do SOMETHING right away. Take up the whole goddamned united states air force and just fly around. That's much better than figuring out a plan of action first, because then we can have a debate afterwards about how who had no choice to do what and why instead of why who wasn't doing what when.

In my case, my retirement ceremony was on that flightline. And what I was remembering, more than anything else at that moment, was an operations plan we used to call "The Doomsday Book", which went into exquisite detail as to what we should do if the US came under aerial attack. HINT: It involved loading everything that could fly as quickly as possible and getting them into the air to shoot down anything that didn't belong. Now, I knew in my heart that even if somebody had made the call at that moment to run the plan, it would have been an hour or two before the first planes were airborne. But, like a lot of people that morning, I wasn't thinking as clearly as I should have, and after spending twenty years in the USAF, I desperately wanted to see SOMETHING happening, because my job was to make it happen.

My apologies for wanting to see somebody pick up every weapon we had to defend ourselves. I'm sure you knew at that moment that the threat was over, and could therefore sit back and make calm, rational plans.

CrazyCurt:

/I can be verbose too, and I also can be farking on the money

I think you're missing his point. Nobody is suggesting we not remember 9/11 as a day that will live in infamy -- we must or history will repeat itself. But we've all seen the videos enough to know what a 767 loaded with jetfuel hitting a building looks like until the day we die. And Matt Lauer bringing back the all-grown-up kid of a firefigher, who he made cry as a 10 year old way back when, to ask him how his life has changed without dad while rolling the clip of the kid crying in slow-farking-motion, who the hell does that help or honor exactly?

The media the problem, not individual folks and their memories of the day.

Warthog: clowncar on fire: I'm going to float an idea here- one that may both anger and intrigue my fellow Farkers. However, I feel it's timing could never be more appropriate than now. Maybe it's been a whisper that's been in the minds of many people but to say it out loud would have been heresy. I'm going to go there, without the usual sugar and flavoring that would accompany such a bitter thought: It's time we put 9-11 in the coffin and give it a proper burial.

You said it better than I did. Agree 100%

Well, there's now a memorial built. It took 10 years but it's there now. So we have our coffin.

abb3w: Trapper439: It had two massive great fark-off buildings fall down next to it.

For an exercise, look up the mass of the towers, and figure out how much kinetic energy is released by dropping that mass half the height of the WTC; that's the approximate energy released into the ground next door. Convert to sticks of dynamite for reference.

The formula is E=(m)(g)(Δs), where m is mass, g is the ~9.8 m/(s2), and Δs the height of the fall, which on average is half the WTC height. (The foolish can do the calculus to integrate and show its the same result.)

A kilo of dynamite going bang releases about 7.5 megajoules.

I love calculating stuff mathematically.

Want to know what a GAU-8 sounds like?

RoF: 3900

That's two octaves below middle C.

I think that's the fourth fret on the sixth string on a guitar. But I am so rusty on the guitar I'm far from confident.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the death of some rabblerouser STILL celebrated 2 millenia later? Just one guy?

/logic bomb!

snoproblem: The main thing we were all thinking was "Where does it end? What fresh hell are we getting next ?" What an awful feeling that was, and still gives me a twinge in the guts as I'm writing this. I really, REALLY don't want to see any news flashes today, on this site or anywhere else.

That was the thing, yes. It's kinda like that terrible feeling you get, if you've ever been in an earthquake:
When does it stop?
Is it going to get worse?
Will there be aftershocks?

I was living in CA at the time. I was sleeping, and my sister kept calling me. I was pissed that she was interrupting my sleep. The first thing she said was, "A plane hit,the,WTC." I was still half asleep, and I was a total biatch and yelled at her for waking me up. When I turned on the TV, the second plane hit in less than a minute. I finally understood what was happening.

It was a very sad day.

so one of the things that I remember most was teh newspaper that day.
anyone else remember what was on the front page on 9/11?

chandra farkign levy
that was the most important thing in the world
and we have changed one bit

rohar: You may want to temper that a bit there. 115,000 Afghans and Iraqis dead. The 100,000 Iraqis had nothing to do with this. Violence like you prefer is the problem, it only perpetuates these reactions from terrorists.

You wanna stop terrorists? Stop making them.

Bush said something about this very soon after 9/11 (can't remember when or which speech) -- something about poverty and the U.S. meddling or ignoring to perpetuate negative sentiments. Then the project for a new american century got wind of it and shut that down fast, because it didn't fit in with their imperialist/neoconservative priorities. Still, there was about a day back in 2001 that I really thought Bush might be a decent fella and work to actually snuff out the root causes of terrorism (like economic inequality and lack of opportunity for prosperity). Yeah, that lasted a day or two. Then we got into the jingoism, I think because that felt better to America, to be honest. They were out there doing focus groups and polls, finding out what Americans really wanted, and we wanted blood. Of course, it is the job of the government to move slowly and have checks and balances to help moderate our initial instincts so that we don't become a poorly-organized lynch mob, but that wasn't really the goal of the US government at that time, was it?

as long as billionaire energy investors and wall street bankers snort cocaine off of the asses of thousand-dollar-a-night prostitutes and gamble with the world's economic security while poor people struggle to survive throughout the world, we will have terrorism.

pippi longstocking: How did tower 7 fall down?

Someone with some engineering sense reply or point me to a good technical article.

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

I had the news on and was listening to the report about a jet that hit the tower. They were thinking it was an accident. Then they're showing this jet hit the building and I'm thinking that they found some tourist who got it on tape by accident. I couldn't believe how fast they found the footage. Then the reporting is yelling that a SECOND plane hit the towers.

That was a very surreal moment...

ComicBookGuy: ElPollotonto: ComicBookGuy: ElPollotonto: I was listening to the Don & Mike show in DC, trying to wake up until I really started listening. Worst wakeup experience ever - even beat out when I got home in the morning to find out that I had been at 2 of the first places the 'Beltway Sniper' started, just 20 minutes earlier.

Which two places? I live a half-mile from the Shopper's Food Warehouse where the first killing took place, and could actually picture in my mind where all the other killings took place w/out going to any of them because I knew quite well the areas where they happened (well, in Montgomery county, anyway)

The shopping center in Aspen Hill - stopped by the McDonald's there on the way home. Followed up by stopping at the Shell Station on Connecticut ave. I know the shootings started the day before but I don't remember hearing about them until after the shootings on the 3rd.

Yikes!!! I remember being up at the Stained Glass Pub in Glenmont and hearing people freak about what was going on that same Monday.

Well, I remember how many people were absolutely paranoid about it when it was happening. I remember seeing parents escorting their offspring to an elementary school, and I thought: "Uh, you really think that would somehow stop a sniper from shooting your kid?"

I wasn't paranoid, personally, I knew the odds were against my being hit, and there was nothing I could do about it.

I'm not paranoid either, but about 2 days later I was outside the 7-11 on Connecticut (about 2 miles away) at around 1:00am talking to some friends when I thought, "Wow, I make a great target here." and my friends also had the same idea at the same time - we all just non-nonchalantly headed back to our 'safer' cars.

CrazyCurt: /I can be verbose too

:)

// salutes the first responders on that day with utmost humility

CrazyCurt: If I'm not mistaken, isn't the death of some rabblerouser STILL celebrated 2 millenia later? Just one guy?

/logic bomb!

That one offends me too (but is the same point I was making in the first place)

CrazyCurt: Ruiizu -- dipshiat myopicly self-aggrandizing complacency personified. Get the fark out of my nation.

/seriously, get out and may you never drag your sorry hipster ass back.

Last I checked, it's everyone's country who is a citizen. If it's complacency to not want to run around exacting "vengeance" for the fallen, then I gladly accept that responsibility. There are other, more productive things we can do than that.

mat catastrophe

One thing I've learned - and it's taken me decades - is that everyone grieves differently and it's really bad form to get in the way of others' grieving and memorializing. Absolutely nothing good can possibly come from grumbling about it.

/aside to my fellow liters: remember this the next time a TFer none of us has ever seen or heard of dies and has a thread dedicated to him or her on the main page. Offer condolences, or say nothing.

make me some tea

Yeah, I'd hold off til later in the day to come to WTC. The area is on lockdown for blocks, and just open for family etc. I can't even get off my block right now (police barriers everywhere). Bring some ID. I've had to carry my passport and a letter proving I live around here.

Yesterday I took my laundry to the cleaners. The police searched the bag (geez, I felt sorry for them...)

namatad: by talking about those change, by remembering, that is the only way that we have hope in making changes which can prevent them from happening again in future

remembering history is the only way that we have any hope of endlessly repeating the past.

But what have we learned? AQ attacked us because of their perspective that we were occupying Muslim countries. Specifically, our troops on the ground in Saudi Arabia. Ayman al-Zawahiri was a mild mannered doctor until we got involved in the dragnet after Sadat's assassination imprisoning and torturing him for years on end.

After all this "learning" we now have special operations forces in over 100 countries which will only ratchet up further frustration from abroad. We're unabashedly imprisoning people with no charges and doing lord knows what to them in GITMO.

I'd suggest that instead of learning from history, we're doubling down on our mistakes.

And for what it matters, the next group that attacks us doesn't care that you were getting a McMuffin in the drive through lane when 9/11 happened.

Somewhere, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld and William Kristol are celebrating 10 great years.

CrazyCurt: If I'm not mistaken, isn't the death of some rabblerouser STILL celebrated 2 millenia later? Just one guy?

/logic bomb!

More than one rabble rouser, Augustus had a few things going on too (look around your capital city, its faux roman).... pax Romana is missing conspicuously though

Oh, forgot.

I'm going to back up the other Farkers, and make this the last time I comment on 9/11 in a "where was I?" sort of way. I agree strongly that it's time to let the dead rest, and move on. Also, finishing the new tower will be really good for the national psyche. The sooner it's done, the better.

Come to think of it, it would also make a great jumping off point to start pushing the congresscritters hard to end a lot of the legislated inanities that resulted from this attack. You could start with dissolving the TSA, and go from there.

No Warthog I am not missing any point, I am actually reacting to this idea that everything should be some Buddhist meditation of personal reflections. There was once a time when we didn't turn personal feelings into the guiding force behind any National historic event's communal importance. There was a time when days like this made us PISSED and DEMAND to get things DONE! But something happened, now days like this are marked with hushes and silences and a morose fear of making anyone slightly disturbed.

News flash LIFE IS MEAN! That's why the people that survived and were there DON'T like to hear about this and who can blame them or deny them their peace, and that's why those who weren't there had BETTER hear this, again and again, to then truly understand. Rose-colored glasses only lead to blindness.

/and Buddha got fat

rohar: namatad: by talking about those change, by remembering, that is the only way that we have hope in making changes which can prevent them from happening again in future

remembering history is the only way that we have any hope of endlessly repeating the past.

But what have we learned? AQ attacked us because of their perspective that we were occupying Muslim countries. Specifically, our troops on the ground in Saudi Arabia. Ayman al-Zawahiri was a mild mannered doctor until we got involved in the dragnet after Sadat's assassination imprisoning and torturing him for years on end.

After all this "learning" we now have special operations forces in over 100 countries which will only ratchet up further frustration from abroad. We're unabashedly imprisoning people with no charges and doing lord knows what to them in GITMO.

I'd suggest that instead of learning from history, we're doubling down on our mistakes.

And for what it matters, the next group that attacks us doesn't care that you were getting a McMuffin in the drive through lane when 9/11 happened.

my feeble hope is that people will be able to look back at this decade and learn from that.
learn from how poorly we responded.

/yah, I dont expect us to actually learn that either.
/oh yes, why did bush waste 8 years and not capture/kill osama and obama was able to do it cheaply and quickly?

wambu: I was buying a sausage biscuit from the Hardees drive-through when I heard. My first thought was "Oh, shiat" and I've held that thought evry day since.

Oh, shiat.

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