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(Some Philosopher Guy)   There's no such thing as an "ex-atheist." Anybody who ceases being an atheist was never one to begin with   (dangerousidea.blogspot.com) divider line 529
    More: Obvious, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, C.S. Lewis, T. S. Eliot, theisms, freethinkers, atheists, statement of faith  
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8625 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Sep 2011 at 12:46 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-09-07 02:00:08 PM  

sillydragon: Time for this yet?

[i950.photobucket.com image 640x618]

Also, I'm curious...to the farker (d3bug I think it was) asking why atheists don't believe, and whether there was a particular reason... Why do you believe? Did you meet God or something? Not trolling, honestly curious...

/And in before lethreadshiatter gets here
//Or Bevets!


now that is a very complex answer... as I am sure you saw, I had many different beliefs in my youth. My personal beliefs have always been that there is a higher power or powers that caused the known universe to exist as we know it, but I suppose at that age I was looking for answers still. Different things attracted me to those different faiths. Without going into verbosity for each of them, I ended up with Christianity for a boatload of reasons. I have had personal experiences which could be deemed as miraculous or at the very least so highly unlikely to happen that it would be akin to winning the lottery without playing. Personal experiences however do not translate well to text, so I will have to leave it at that. One thing that I have found however, is most people who claim to be Christians are NOT true Christians by any sense of the word. The things that these armchair Christians (as I call them) do, I try to avoid - nobody is perfect, but I do at least try. The big ones I do follow without fail:

1> the ten commandments (it's not that hard, and they are common sense after all)
2> try to love my enemies (that's a hard one - considering how hateful some are)
3> try to make sure I use things in proper context (challenging sometimes, but worthwhile)
4> try not to fall into false traps of theology (arguing for no purpose other than 'i am right, you are not')

/please note the use of TRY... lol
//I am willing to go into more verbosity in email, I just don't wanna threadshiat here
 
2011-09-07 02:01:49 PM  
Cheap semantics. You were what you were and you are what you are.
 
2011-09-07 02:01:57 PM  

Mercutio74: colon_pow: A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading.
C. S. Lewis

That's curious. I'll read almost anything (my wife bought the Twilight series, and I read all four) and even pro-religious texts tend to reassure me in the idea that there is no good evidence of a god.


Check out the Screwtape Letters, c.s. lewis

Link (new window)
 
2011-09-07 02:02:04 PM  

Azmodan Kijur: With that in mind, think to those that are "converted" from that position. Youtube videos of people converted from their atheism to a religion that had never contemplated the question before. Were they actually atheists? One wonders ....


Atheist simply means no belief in a god(s). So yes. They were atheists, at least by the technical definition. Does that mean they necessarily put much thought into it? No. But then, we don't stop calling people Christian when they haven't ever bothered to question their beliefs either.
 
2011-09-07 02:03:02 PM  

Mugato: ChadM89: Nobody knows any more than anyone else so what are you all doing making up terms to classify each each other? It's all very masturbatory.

You've contributed nothing to the discussion beyond "I don't like these discussions."

Weird, then, that you're in here reading. Also, are you incapable of exiting the thread?


Maybe I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind why people who are all at the same starting point regarding what they know about life, the universe and everything TM feel the need to impose their equally uninformed views on others and classify people based on their beliefs that are just as unfounded as anyone else's.


You and me both, brother.

Seriously. We've had dozens of these threads since I joined in '08. Nobody has changed their opinion. Bevets comes in and does his little proselytizing thing and Fark's anti-theists call anyone with even a sliver of belief in a higher power brainwashed terrorists. Meanwhile, half the crap that gets submitted to the Geek tab just goes unapproved.
 
2011-09-07 02:03:04 PM  

Mugato: Maybe I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind why people who are all at the same starting point regarding what they know about life, the universe and everything TM feel the need to impose their equally uninformed views on others and classify people based on their beliefs that are just as unfounded as anyone else's.


You keep insisting that everyone's view is equally uninformed and baseless. This is not so just because you claim it to be.
 
2011-09-07 02:05:16 PM  

miss diminutive: d3bug: I am curious about something, and perhaps you can enlighten me. Why did you choose Atheism? In other words, what evidence or lack thereof led you to the conclusion that there is no higher power in any form? I really do want to know - everyone believes the way they do for a reason, and I am just curious what your reason(s) are. Thanks.

I'm not sure if your question was for me or pxlboy, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

I choose atheism for two reasons 1) my intellectual understanding of the universe didn't require (or basically precluded) the need or existence of a supernatural being. Everything I've ever read and understood about our universe has taught me that the universe is massive, more massive than anything our minds can grasp, and the idea that there was some higher power that created it solely for our benefit or understanding is arrogance to the nth degree. We have never had any proof of a supernatural power, and there is even less proof that such a power would even take an interest in our everyday, humdrum existence on this tiny planet in a galactic backwater. Humans have existed on this planet for a tiny fraction of the Earth's history, to assume that we are somehow special in some cosmic deity's eyes seems ridiculous to me.

2) I don't believe in God or gods for emotional or spiritual reasons. Many of my religious friends tell me that they "feel God's presence" or "feel a connection to him" or something of the sort. Never in my life have I felt a connection to a higher power. I feel like a part of a whole, like I'm connected to everything in the universe; mainly because we're all made of the same material. But I've never had a moment in my life where I could honestly say that I felt the presence of something supernatural or omnipotent or anything close to what most people consider God.

So basically I'm an atheist because the concept of God is not applicable to me, in both an intellectual and emotional sense.


the question was directed at pxlboy, but I am open to anyone that wants to give their input as well... I welcome it all. I wouldn't say it isn't applicable to you period, I would say that it hasn't been applicable to you as of yet. There is always the possibility that something could happen to change your mind. It's only too late once you are dead. :)
 
2011-09-07 02:06:12 PM  
All Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc were atheists to start. Every single one.

When you are born you have no beliefs in a god or gods.
An atheist is someone who has no belief in a god or gods.

If the controversy is about someone who, as an adult, went from the default atheist to Christian, or from atheist to Christian back to atheist I don't really see the big deal.
People change their mind. Deal with it.

/atheist who was a christian after being born an atheist
 
2011-09-07 02:06:26 PM  

d3bug: protectyourlimbs: d3bug: Gordian Cipher: d3bug: one of them was Satanism (which could really be referred to as humanism more than anything because it is really all about being your own God - not in the supernatural sense, but in the sense of being the master of your own destiny)

You must have been really confused then. Satan is a character in the Christian mythology, and therefore you believe(d) in the Christian mythology. You turned the story around and interpreted it differently (Satan as the fallen hero, Yahweh as the bad guy), but it's definitely Christianity.

It's like claiming that a the cult of Aphrodite was a different religion than the rest of Ancient Greece. Same pantheon, different focus.

commercial Satanism (ie; LaVey Satanism) is not really based on the Christian perspective. LaVey did not believe in the existence of Satan. He believed in the nature of mankind, and evil being just an aspect of human nature. That is the Satanism to which I refer, NOT what could be considered true Satanism (based on the Christian Satan, and worshiping said deity).

even better, now if you could only remember where you put your irony...

i think it's with the irony board in the closet? :P


So without god man is left with no other choice that evil? I just seem to think that people need to take credit for things they do, or don't do, no matter if they are evil or good.

I don't need god to tell me not to commit a crime or know morally right from wrong, I do not make fun of others that do. I am just saying that if you try to turn an atheist to religion that logic isn't your friend. If just believing is what makes people better than I am all for it, but history shows us that just believing without questioning allows people to easily abuse blind faith.

The only ones that are afraid of questions are those who not only know the answers, but want to hide them.

We live in a world that you can get elected by saying god talks to you, but laughed at if you bring up the possibility of life existing outside of earth by the same people...
 
2011-09-07 02:07:07 PM  

j0ndas: If we're all evolved from swamp ooze, then there's no basis for morality period and the only law is what the majority rules it is. Christians can support torture or not support torture and you have no basis for telling us we're "right" or "wrong", since "right" and "wrong" are entirely religious concepts.


Most of the Old Testament contains a whole slew of rules that no Christian follows anymore, including rules for selling children into slavery, stoning adulterers, and declaring cutting your hair or shaving a sin.

The Gospels contain parables and advice from Jesus about loving your neighbor and helping the needy.

So how did modern Christians decide what laws in the Bible are worth following and which are not? That information does not come from the Bible, which is the only teaching of their religion (everything else is an interpretation of that one teaching).

That information--knowing which laws are good to follow and which aren't--is called "morality." It exists outside their religion.

/QED
 
2011-09-07 02:07:11 PM  

ChadM89: d3bug: believing someone will burn is not the same as thinking that they deserve to or should.

Sorry, you don't get to wipe your hands that easily. If you're a christian, you accept certain things as true. Among those things are the idea that all of creation, the entire universe and heaven and hell, are god's design. The entire thing works exactly as god built and intended it to work.

As such, the system whereby the select few get into heaven and the rest go to hell is god's purposeful design.

If you claim that a person can end up in hell that doesn't deserve to be there, you are claiming that god either made a mistake by sending them there, or sent them there unjustly. God making mistakes or being unjust is counter to the basic tenets of christianity, so the only remaining explanation is that everyone in hell deserves to be there.


now maybe you should read the rest of my post, and not pull things entirely out of context... :)
 
2011-09-07 02:09:03 PM  

groppet: Was there a foxhole involved?


Leave the Furries out of this.
 
2011-09-07 02:09:15 PM  

Franko: bobbette: This is not correct. A long-time atheist relative of mine just went full Jesus.

I don't know how old they are, but it sounds like a classic last-minute conversion to get into heaven to me.


Or an attempt to look good for the parole board.
 
2011-09-07 02:09:24 PM  

ChadM89: Mugato: Maybe I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind why people who are all at the same starting point regarding what they know about life, the universe and everything TM feel the need to impose their equally uninformed views on others and classify people based on their beliefs that are just as unfounded as anyone else's.

You keep insisting that everyone's view is equally uninformed and baseless. This is not so just because you claim it to be.


so vote republican?

/nothin'
 
2011-09-07 02:09:50 PM  

Marine1: Bevets comes in and does his little proselytizing thing and Fark's anti-theists call anyone with even a sliver of belief in a higher power brainwashed terrorists. Meanwhile, half the crap that gets submitted to the Geek tab just goes unapproved.


This is three statements of fact. Two of them are true. The non-religious people on Fark simply do not have the attitude you're describing.
 
2011-09-07 02:09:57 PM  
d3bug

So do you believe your god is right in sending Atheists to hell?
 
2011-09-07 02:10:47 PM  
Q. What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness with an atheist?
A. Someone who knocks on your door for no apparent reason.
 
2011-09-07 02:11:03 PM  
So, whatever you are at the moment--that's what you were all the time?

Sounds good to me; that way you can change your mind as the wind blows but you will never be wrong or inconsistent.

we have always been at war with eastasia
 
2011-09-07 02:11:14 PM  

Marine1: Seriously. We've had dozens of these threads since I joined in '08. Nobody has changed their opinion.


How do you know that? I have personally seen people's viewpoints change due to information and arguments presented in fark threads. Just because it hasn't changed your mind doesn't mean that nobody ever learns, changes or grows in any way.

Marine1: Bevets comes in and does his little proselytizing thing...


There's not enough talk about evolution in these kinds of threads to summon Bevets. He doesn't generally show up in the pure religion threads, only ones where the topic is biological evolution.

Marine1: ... and Fark's anti-theists call anyone with even a sliver of belief in a higher power brainwashed terrorists.


That isn't true.
 
2011-09-07 02:12:06 PM  

Uncle Tractor: d3bug: Why do you believe that Christians believe Atheists deserve to be tortured ?

Because people who do not believe in the just and loving christian god go to hell where they are tortured forever. And they (we) have it coming.

/also, christianity has some history when it comes to the way non-believers are treated


Those sound like your words, not mine or any Christian that I personally know. I do not wish ill on anyone - even my worst enemy. Implying that someone believes that someone has it coming as you said implies that person WANTS that to happen to you. This is simply not the case.
 
2011-09-07 02:12:30 PM  

Elemental79: d3bug

So do you believe your god is right in sending Atheists to hell?


Or god loving child murders to heaven... as long as they believe
 
2011-09-07 02:14:23 PM  

d3bug: There is always the possibility that something could happen to change your mind.


True. I can't completely discard that potential outcome. But there's also the possibility that I could ride across the ocean on a genetically enhanced sea turtle named Leroy and be named High Priestess of Atlantis and the twelve oceanic colonies. I'd say both scenarios are pretty much equal in terms of odds.
 
2011-09-07 02:15:51 PM  
www.bestfreechristian.com

Jesus loves you.
 
2011-09-07 02:16:14 PM  

hitchking: Marine1: Bevets comes in and does his little proselytizing thing and Fark's anti-theists call anyone with even a sliver of belief in a higher power brainwashed terrorists. Meanwhile, half the crap that gets submitted to the Geek tab just goes unapproved.

This is three statements of fact. Two of them are true. The non-religious people on Fark simply do not have the attitude you're describing.


...Do you read these threads at all?

Seriously, do you? Maybe not this specific one, but tons of these threads do.
 
2011-09-07 02:18:45 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: sillydragon: Time for this yet?

Definition of GNOSIS
: esoteric knowledge of spiritual truth held by the ancient Gnostics to be essential to salvation

Technically, a gnostic is comparable to one who is enlightened in zen buddhism, agnostics would be everyone else who is not.


And right under that definition on Webster's site:

Origin of GNOSIS
Greek gnōsis, literally, knowledge, from gignōskein
First Known Use: 1703


d3bug:lots of stuff

Ah okay, thanks for the answer. I was curious to see if you had a reason, or were the "Why am I Christain? Cause it's obvious! *biblethump*" sort. I won't pester you about the details. :)
 
2011-09-07 02:20:21 PM  

ChadM89: Marine1: Seriously. We've had dozens of these threads since I joined in '08. Nobody has changed their opinion.

How do you know that? I have personally seen people's viewpoints change due to information and arguments presented in fark threads. Just because it hasn't changed your mind doesn't mean that nobody ever learns, changes or grows in any way.


Yes, people change their most fundamental core beliefs based on arguments that occur on a news satire message board.
 
2011-09-07 02:21:17 PM  

protectyourlimbs: d3bug: protectyourlimbs: d3bug: Gordian Cipher: d3bug: one of them was Satanism (which could really be referred to as humanism more than anything because it is really all about being your own God - not in the supernatural sense, but in the sense of being the master of your own destiny)

You must have been really confused then. Satan is a character in the Christian mythology, and therefore you believe(d) in the Christian mythology. You turned the story around and interpreted it differently (Satan as the fallen hero, Yahweh as the bad guy), but it's definitely Christianity.

It's like claiming that a the cult of Aphrodite was a different religion than the rest of Ancient Greece. Same pantheon, different focus.

commercial Satanism (ie; LaVey Satanism) is not really based on the Christian perspective. LaVey did not believe in the existence of Satan. He believed in the nature of mankind, and evil being just an aspect of human nature. That is the Satanism to which I refer, NOT what could be considered true Satanism (based on the Christian Satan, and worshiping said deity).

even better, now if you could only remember where you put your irony...

i think it's with the irony board in the closet? :P

So without god man is left with no other choice that evil? I just seem to think that people need to take credit for things they do, or don't do, no matter if they are evil or good.

I don't need god to tell me not to commit a crime or know morally right from wrong, I do not make fun of others that do. I am just saying that if you try to turn an atheist to religion that logic isn't your friend. If just believing is what makes people better than I am all for it, but history shows us that just believing without questioning allows people to easily abuse blind faith.

The only ones that are afraid of questions are those who not only know the answers, but want to hide them.

We live in a world that you can get elected by saying god talks to you, but laughed at if you bring up the possibility of life existing outside of earth by the same people...


I think you are responding to the wrong post? I never said anything remotely like what you are saying.
 
2011-09-07 02:21:47 PM  

d3bug: the question was directed at pxlboy, but I am open to anyone that wants to give their input as well... I welcome it all. I wouldn't say it isn't applicable to you period, I would say that it hasn't been applicable to you as of yet. There is always the possibility that something could happen to change your mind. It's only too late once you are dead. :)


Not if you're a believer in reincarnation.

//Note: I am not a believer in reincarnation.
 
2011-09-07 02:21:58 PM  

d3bug: now maybe you should read the rest of my post, and not pull things entirely out of context... :)


The rest of your post was the result of accepting a false premise. You were fleshing out the idea given in the first line, assuming it was true. But it wasn't true, as I and others have explained to you here. So why don't you get back on topic. You asked why it is that atheists think christians are okay with them being tortured (going to hell). You've been provided with clear, logically-valid reasoning which illustrates why adherents to christianity, within the tenets of the religion, support the eternal torment of all non-christians. Any particular part of those explanations that you'd care to argue, or do you concede the point?
 
2011-09-07 02:25:41 PM  
That's kind of a militant view.
 
2011-09-07 02:26:54 PM  
THE MIND CANNOT BE CHANGED!
 
2011-09-07 02:27:19 PM  

doubled99: What about a lesbian who switches over to cock?


Epeckerpalian.
 
2011-09-07 02:28:47 PM  
Wow what a load of stupid. Beliefs do sometimes change, dude. It doesn't necessarily make the new belief correct, but it doesn't mean previously held beliefs were held disingenuously.
 
2011-09-07 02:28:50 PM  
I actually clicked through to the guy's article, and what he says is actually completely different than the connotation this guy gives. He's basically claiming to be skeptical of the numerous people who appeal to Christians by saying "I used to be atheist, but Christianity is just too awesome". Which, let's face it, is a good thing to be skeptical about; always be careful of people trying to sell you something.

Granted, the guy's kind of a dickbag in how he gets his point across, but he's not claiming heresy or what have you.
 
2011-09-07 02:29:08 PM  
The author isn't taking brain damage into account.
 
2011-09-07 02:30:29 PM  

d3bug: Those sound like your words, not mine or any Christian that I personally know. I do not wish ill on anyone - even my worst enemy. Implying that someone believes that someone has it coming as you said implies that person WANTS that to happen to you. This is simply not the case.


You christians worship an almighty all-knowing god, which means that nothing happens without his knowledge and approval. Also, everything he does is 110% just and fair. This means that for a christian, eternal suffering for the non-believers is just and fair. You just can't get around that without using some fairly contorted pretzel logic. Whether you want it or not doesn't come into it. Your god makes it happen, and that makes it just and fair.

Sorry, but that's just the way your religion is.
 
2011-09-07 02:33:35 PM  

miss diminutive: d3bug: I am curious about something, and perhaps you can enlighten me. Why did you choose Atheism? In other words, what evidence or lack thereof led you to the conclusion that there is no higher power in any form? I really do want to know - everyone believes the way they do for a reason, and I am just curious what your reason(s) are. Thanks.

I'm not sure if your question was for me or pxlboy, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

I choose atheism for two reasons 1) my intellectual understanding of the universe didn't require (or basically precluded) the need or existence of a supernatural being. Everything I've ever read and understood about our universe has taught me that the universe is massive, more massive than anything our minds can grasp, and the idea that there was some higher power that created it solely for our benefit or understanding is arrogance to the nth degree. We have never had any proof of a supernatural power, and there is even less proof that such a power would even take an interest in our everyday, humdrum existence on this tiny planet in a galactic backwater. Humans have existed on this planet for a tiny fraction of the Earth's history, to assume that we are somehow special in some cosmic deity's eyes seems ridiculous to me.

2) I don't believe in God or gods for emotional or spiritual reasons. Many of my religious friends tell me that they "feel God's presence" or "feel a connection to him" or something of the sort. Never in my life have I felt a connection to a higher power. I feel like a part of a whole, like I'm connected to everything in the universe; mainly because we're all made of the same material. But I've never had a moment in my life where I could honestly say that I felt the presence of something supernatural or omnipotent or anything close to what most people consider God.

So basically I'm an atheist because the concept of God is not applicable to me, in both an intellectual and emotional sense.


I would pretty much say the same thing and add on that the problem I have with religion is that people say it's based on faith for the most part. There is a huge lack of reason and logic that takes it out of the reality perspective. People don't have any logical reason for there to be a being in space or the sky that controls everything. They don't even think about the reality of it like there's an actually living being, without the need of any of life's vices, existing in space or the sky that is supposed to look exactly like us, as described by people that lived thousands of years ago.

There's just too many unanswered questions that have to do with completely commiting your life to one religion.

Hell, I'll throw out some questions for some religious believers (just for attention grabbing) if I may:

1.) If such a living being as God exists, what purpose does it have to shroud itself in mystery and never show itself to all of its followers except in mysterous ways that are only perceived as God and can't be conclusively said is God actually there?

2.) If God is an all powerful being, what purpose does Hell have? Why would God allow such a place if the place is to "punish" non-believers and turn them into demons of Hell's army? Doesn't that just hurt God's plan of having as many people on his side as possible?

3.) Why are most of the beliefs of religious people about the afterlife? It seems that a lot of religion is fear-based into making you believe something or you'll go somewhere very bad. The problem I have with this is that you will know nothing until you are dead and you can't tell anyone living about it and you won't know if you're right or wrong until you're dead and by that point, it won't matter what you believed especially if you were wrong.

/Religion is more or less the point that I refuse to believe in a higher power.
//Since it is the only reason people do so.
 
2011-09-07 02:34:06 PM  

Kome: Wow what a load of stupid. Beliefs do sometimes change, dude. It doesn't necessarily make the new belief correct, but it doesn't mean previously held beliefs were held disingenuously.


F*cking THIS. That's all people are trying to say. It's not a 'No True Scotsman' argument so much as it is highlighting the frailty of the previously-held belief system. It's a decision not driven by new evidence, rather by abandoning an already-flimsy adherence to said beliefs.
 
2011-09-07 02:34:14 PM  

Kome: Wow what a load of stupid. Beliefs do sometimes change, dude. It doesn't necessarily make the new belief correct, but it doesn't mean previously held beliefs were held disingenuously.


True, but what the author is pointing out is that a belief in logic and understanding cannot easily be replaced by a belief in magic.

Changing one's belief system to eschew logic in order to be hypocritical is not something most humans would do.
 
2011-09-07 02:36:09 PM  
Where's LeTrole?
img684.imageshack.us
Here he is!
 
2011-09-07 02:37:43 PM  

d3bug: Why did you choose Atheism?


My two cents:

I didn't choose atheism. It's just that I've never seen a reason to believe in a god. *A* god, because there are literally thousands to choose from.

When it comes to christianity, it has at least one fatal logical flaw. Judaism has the saving grace of being an old tribal religion, and Islam is a pure fabrication (mohammed = ron hubbard). Christianity, OTOH, is saddled with an all-powerful, all-knowing superhero who also loves you. It's like superman; complete omnipotency and omniscience ruins all stories. Superman has kryptonite to make things interesting. God has ... atheists who sometimes write books ...?
 
2011-09-07 02:37:54 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Pocket Ninja: They're sort of like soldiers in the marine core, that way.

Or Jews.


+1

Done in two.
 
2011-09-07 02:39:04 PM  

colon_pow: Screwtap


Dude... I just looked that up on wikipedia. It sounds positively atrocious... but what the hell, I'll give it a shot.

You see, I was expecting that you'd suggest something scholarly or, at the very least, research based. Instead I get a reccomendation for what seems to be a young adult fictional serial. Well, I'll see if I can find a copy.
 
2011-09-07 02:39:48 PM  
This got a green light? It wasn't even a story. Just a small paragraph in a blog.

It almost makes it seem that there are "keywords" on Fark that will just about guaranty a green light if you include them in your headline.
 
2011-09-07 02:40:18 PM  

d3bug: Those sound like your words, not mine or any Christian that I personally know. I do not wish ill on anyone - even my worst enemy. Implying that someone believes that someone has it coming as you said implies that person WANTS that to happen to you. This is simply not the case.


Ask your pastor or fellow church-goer if non-christians will get into heaven.

If they don't get into heaven, what are the alternatives? Is there an opt-out of the entire heaven/hell thing?

Who created the heaven/hell system?

1. If god created the system, and
2. god does not allow non-christians in heaven, and
3. no opt-out exists for the system, then
4. god wants those people to go to hell.

If he didn't, he'd change the system, since it's his and he has the power to do so. And since christians believe god to be infallible and always just, they must agree with god sending those people to hell. If they don't agree, then they disagree either with god being infallible, or him being just. If either of those are true, they aren't really christians, as god's infallibility and justness are axiomatic to the religion.
 
2011-09-07 02:43:36 PM  

ChadM89: d3bug: Those sound like your words, not mine or any Christian that I personally know. I do not wish ill on anyone - even my worst enemy. Implying that someone believes that someone has it coming as you said implies that person WANTS that to happen to you. This is simply not the case.

Ask your pastor or fellow church-goer if non-christians will get into heaven.

If they don't get into heaven, what are the alternatives? Is there an opt-out of the entire heaven/hell thing?

Who created the heaven/hell system?

1. If god created the system, and
2. god does not allow non-christians in heaven, and
3. no opt-out exists for the system, then
4. god wants those people to go to hell.

If he didn't, he'd change the system, since it's his and he has the power to do so. And since christians believe god to be infallible and always just, they must agree with god sending those people to hell. If they don't agree, then they disagree either with god being infallible, or him being just. If either of those are true, they aren't really christians, as god's infallibility and justness are axiomatic to the religion.


you should get a tarp for the exploding heads (like a gallagher show)
 
2011-09-07 02:43:42 PM  

ChadM89: d3bug: now maybe you should read the rest of my post, and not pull things entirely out of context... :)

The rest of your post was the result of accepting a false premise. You were fleshing out the idea given in the first line, assuming it was true. But it wasn't true, as I and others have explained to you here. So why don't you get back on topic. You asked why it is that atheists think christians are okay with them being tortured (going to hell). You've been provided with clear, logically-valid reasoning which illustrates why adherents to christianity, within the tenets of the religion, support the eternal torment of all non-christians. Any particular part of those explanations that you'd care to argue, or do you concede the point?


once again, I will quote ENTIRELY what I said... If this is too difficult to understand, then I will try to explain it further for you:

"believing someone will burn is not the same as thinking that they deserve to or should. Most Christians I personally know believe they will burn, but do not want that fate for them, so they of course try to bring their message to the Atheist. The part where most of them fail is this: Jesus himself said that at some point, you must simply give up... not everyone will be saved. Pushing people with your message to no end will actually push them further away from God because it leaves a bad experience for them in the sense that they see Christians as pushy and arrogant. We see evidence of that in real life every day. I have always said that if you want your message to be heard, then give the message, and leave it alone... If someone has questions, then they will ask you, but if they choose not to accept the message, then there is no amount of proselytizing that will change their minds."

As I stated earlier in this thread, using the word deserve implies that someone WANTS that fate for another person. If you are using the word in it's proper context, then my answer is:

According to the beliefs of Christianity, every person deserves whatever fate THEY choose. If they choose to reject God, then they have chosen to go to hell (I know you are going to pull this out of context into a sound bite, but whatever). If they choose to accept God, and all that goes with it (following God's law), then they deserve to go to heaven. Those are the rules, plain and simple.

Now with that out of the way, I will reiterate... I do NOT wish that fate upon anyone, HOWEVER, you cannot make someone else's choice for them. Every last human being on Earth has free will. If you choose to rage against the machine, you will get the gears. The rules of the universe as per Christianity state that God is the only God, he is all powerful, and all knowing... Therefore, you must abide by the rules of HIS universe. If Christianity is wrong, then it's wrong... If Buddhism is wrong, it is wrong. If Atheism is wrong, you will never know anyway.
 
2011-09-07 02:43:43 PM  

miscreant: Atheist simply means no belief in a god(s).


no, it farking doesn't.

Cambridge dictionary
atheist
noun /ˈeɪ.θi.ɪst/ [C]
Definition
someone who believes that God or gods do not exist.

Here's webster's dictionary too.

Definition of ATHEIST
: one who believes that there is no deity

Both definitions are about believing there is no deity. Not lacking a belief in a deity.
 
2011-09-07 02:43:49 PM  

pxlboy: miss diminutive: Once you go heathen, you never go back.

this. tried explaining it to my dad. it's not unlike dorothy seeing the man behind the curtain. once you've gone there, you can't (short of a lobotomy) go back.

to do so is intellectually dishonest and, as the headline indicated, disprove any previous claims to atheism.


I knew an atheist who became a 'devout Christian', blaming his drug addictions on his lack of God and his homosexuality on his drug addiction.

Though, as someone pointed out earlier there is probably some sort of life crisis involved (generalizing, I know) when someone goes from atheist to religious, especially to fundie.
 
2011-09-07 02:45:07 PM  

Leeds: Kome: Wow what a load of stupid. Beliefs do sometimes change, dude. It doesn't necessarily make the new belief correct, but it doesn't mean previously held beliefs were held disingenuously.

True, but what the author is pointing out is that a belief in logic and understanding cannot easily be replaced by a belief in magic.

Changing one's belief system to eschew logic in order to be hypocritical is not something most humans would do.


I would argue the contrary. Cognitive dissonance is very common. Not to mention wishful thinking, societal pressures to conform, and general false premises about the ontological reality of the physical, biological, and mental aspects of life. Changing one's belief system in a way that does eschew logic, even if eschewing logic is not the reason for changing one's belief, is perhaps all too common. It happens to all of us some of the time. It's just part of human nature. How many people every year are persuaded that homeopathic and alternative medicines work based solely on anecdote and hearsay? Or buy into, literally, the myth of the Mozart effect because they want to believe there is an easy way to make their unborn baby brilliant? Or choose not to vaccinate their children out of a fear and misunderstanding of the etiology of autism or cynicism about the pharmaceutical industry? The massive financial gains put forward by religious, political, medical, and pseudoscientific fraud and deception are a testament to how easy it is to get otherwise logical people to start adhering to crank beliefs.
 
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