As everyone agreed Pollard getting life in prison was a fair sentence, I am sure everyone will agree to send all those involved in spying on Israeli soil (and that's what an embassy is) to be arrested, remanded to Israel and sent for life in prison after fair trials, right?

*cough*LawrenceFranklin*cough*

Aarontology: Israel is 70 years old?

"We started spying on Israel even before the state of Israel was formally founded in 1948

So I suppose that they were spying on the Sochnut (Jewish Agency) before the State was created

WTF Indeed: Well since we've given them hundreds of billions of dollars, and thousands of American lives in "protection" of them. I'd say we've earned to know what the f*ck they were up too.

THIS

Well, duh. Everyone spies on everyone else.

i'd be surprised if we WEREN'T spying on them.

Well, maybe now they will go ahead and tell us what was going on with the attack on the USS Liberty.

WTF Indeed: Well since we've given them hundreds of billions of dollars, and thousands of American lives in "protection" of them. I'd say we've earned to know what the f*ck they were up too.

First of all, hundreds of billions of dollars?

Since 1949, $109.164 billions have been sent to Israel. Both loans and grants. The responsibility for the bulk of these billions lie with one man, and one man only: Jimmy Carter.

Also, what are you talking about 'thousands of American lives in 'protection'?

And how do you justify spying before the State was even created, much less before the first penny was sent?

Israel has sent tons of invaluable information to American, to begin with. The head of the US Air Force Intelligence that Israel gave so much good intel that America couldn't do the same thing with "five CIAs".

Israel also captured and sent Soviet planes and tanks to Langley during the cold war, which means that America saved tens of billions of dollars trying to reverse engineer them to find their weaknesses.

Israel also always tested new American weapons for America. And so on and so on.

But let's go to a very very small list of examples, which are by no mean the sum total of everything Israel has given to America.

WHAT ISRAEL DOES FOR THE UNITED STATES and much more

Throughout the six decades since the re-establishment of Israel, an often repeated claim in made that "Israel is a draining liability on the United States." This claim is bogus and an examination of the facts hopefully will consign this charge to the trash-heap where it belongs.

Further adding to the problem are statements made by and the conduct of Israel's leftist leaders since 1993 create the false impression that Israeli-American ties constitute a one-way relationship. The impression is given that the U.S. gives and Israel merely receives and thus must constantly bow to "American pressure" as personified by the U.S. State Department.

The truth is that the relationship is a two-way partnership. For example:

• In 1952, as the Cold War got underway, U.S. Army Chief-of-Staff Omar Bradley called for the integration of Israel into the Mediterranean Basin area, in light of the country's location and unique capabilities.

• In 1967, Israel defeated a radical Arab, pro-Soviet offensive, which threatened to bring about the collapse of pro-American Arab regimes and disrupt oil supply, thus severely undermining the American standard of living. The U.S. gained valuable military information from analysis of captured Soviet equipment, including SAM-2, SAM-12, Mig-21 aircraft, and Soviet T-54 battle tanks. In fact, Israel gave an entire squadron of MiG-21s to the U.S. which was dubbed the "Top Gun" squadron and used by the U.S. Air and Naval forces for training purposes. Since 1967, Israel transferred captured Soviet weapons systems to the U.S. Pentagon after every conflict: 1967, 1967-70, 1973, 1982, 1990 (Scud remnants from the Gulf War), and 2006 (remnants of Iranian supplied missiles.

• In the 1967-1970 1000 Day War of Attrition, the IDF, armed with American aircraft successfully defeated a Soviet-supplied air defense system, pointing out the deficiencies in Soviet air-defense doctrine to US defense planners. Israel shared captured military equipment include P-2 radar and Soviet tanks with the U.S. military.

• In 1970, Israel brought about the withdrawal of Syrian forces from Jordan, at a time when the U.S. was tied up by wars in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, thus preventing the fall of the pro-American Hashemite regime and the installation of a pro-Soviet radical Palestinian terrorist regime.

• In 1973 - thanks to U.S. re-supply, but without U.S. forces, Israel defeated Soviet-trained and equipped Egyptian and Syrian forces. Israel again shared captured Soviet equipment, including T-62 battle tanks with the U.S. Israel emerged as the only reliable ally where U.S. troops could land, where U.S. equipment can be pre-positioned, where the U.S. has friendly port facilities (in Haifa and Ashdod) in the entire Middle East region. This too has saved the U.S. billions of dollars.

• 1970s - Joseph Sisco, a former U.S. Assistant Secretary of State, assistant to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger during the latter's shuttle diplomacy, told the Israeli author and military expert, Shmuel Katz: "I want to assure you, Mr. Katz, that if we were not getting full value for our money, you would not get a cent from us."

• In 1981, Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, delaying Saddam Hussein's quest for nuclear weapons. It thus provided the U.S. with the option of engaging in conventional wars with Iraq in 1991 and 2003.

• The vice president General Dynamics which produces the F16 fighter jets has stated that Israel is responsible for 600 improvements in the plane's systems, modifications estimated to be worth billions of dollars, which spared dozens of research and development years.

• In 1982, Israel destroyed Soviet anti-aircraft batteries in Lebanon that were considered immune to American weapons. Israel promptly shared the operation's lessons, estimated to be worth billions of dollars.

• Former Secretary of State and NATO forces commander Alexander Haig has stated that he is pro-Israeli because Israel is the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security.

• During the first Gulf War 1991, Israel provided invaluable intelligence, an umbrella of air cover for military cargo, and had personnel planted in the Iraqi desert to pick up downed American pilots.

• General George Keegan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence has publicly declared that "Israel is worth five CIA's." He further stated that between 1974 and 1990, Israel received $18.3 billion in U.S. military grants. During the same period Israel provided the U.S. with $50-80 billion in intelligence, research and development savings, and Soviet weapons systems captured and transferred to the U.S.

• In 2005, Israel provided America with the world's most extensive experience in homeland defense and warfare against suicide bombers and car bombs. American soldiers train in IDF facilities and Israeli-made drones fly above the "Sunni Triangle" in Iraq, as well as in Afghanistan, providing U.S. Marines with vital intelligence.

• In September 2007, the IAF destroyed a Syrian-North Korean nuclear plant, extending the US's strategic arm. It provided the US with vital information on Russian air defense systems, which are also employed by Iran. It bolstered the US posture of deterrence and refuted the claim that US-Israel relations have been shaped by political expediency.

• In 2009, Israel shares with the US its battle-tested experience in combating Palestinian and Hizbullah terrorism, which are the role model of anti-US Islamic terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan. US GIs benefit from Israel's battle tactics against car bombs, improvised explosive devices and homicide bombing. An Israel-like ally in the Persian Gulf would have spared the need to dispatch US troops to Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

• Israel has relayed to the U.S. lessons of battle (during the Cold War - Soviet military doctrine) and counter-terrorism (including aircraft security, homicide-suicide bombings) which reduce American losses in Iraq and Afghanistan, prevent attacks on U.S. soil, upgrade American weapons, and contribute to the U.S. economy. Without Israel, the U.S. would have been forced to deploy tens of thousands of American troops in the eastern Mediterranean Basin, at a cost of billions of dollars a year.

• Senator Daniel Inouye has recently (2005) argued Israeli information regarding Soviet arms saved the U.S. billions of dollars. The contribution made by Israeli intelligence to America is greater than that provided by all NATO countries combined, he said.

• Israel's utilization of American arms guarantees its existence, but at the same time gives U.S. military industries, such as Boeing and General Dynamics, a competitive edge compared to European industries, while also boosting American military production, producing American jobs, and improving America's national security. Japan and South Korea, for example, preferred the "Hawkeye" spy plane and the MD-500 chopper, both purchased and upgraded by Israel, over comparable British and French aircraft.

• The American industries want U.S. aid to Israel to continue. The bulk of the $1.8 billion in annual U.S. military aid to Israel must be spent in the United States. That provides jobs for some 50,000 U.S. workers. Virtually all of the $1.2 billion in annual economic aid goes for repayment of debt to the United States, incurred from military purchases dating back many years. This debt is now close to being liquidated.

• Innovative Israeli technologies have a similar effect on American civilian, including computer-related industries and agricultural industries, which view Israel as a successful research and development site.

• Members of the U.S. Congress leaders, then Vice President Dick Cheney, and then Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld are aware of Israel's unique contribution to U.S. interests. But, in fact, they all wonder why the post-1993 Israel does not use its impressive contribution as leverage, in sharp contrast to the pre-1993 Israel.

• In contrast to our commitments to Korea, Japan, Germany and other parts of the world, not a single American serviceperson needs to be stationed in Israel. Considering that the cost of one serviceperson per year - including backup and infrastructure - is estimated to be about $200,000 per year, and assuming a minimum contingent of 25,000 troops, the cost savings to the United States on that score alone are on the order of $5 billion a year.

So cutting aid to Israel means losing hundreds of billions of dollars worth of intelligence and help, the one actual friendly country in the Middle-East and 50,000 American jobs.

America gets $10 for every dollar it puts in. I'd say that both sides are doing ok.

I'd track my investments, too.

WTF Indeed: Well since we've given them hundreds of billions of dollars, and thousands of American lives in "protection" of them. I'd say we've earned to know what the f*ck they were up too.

This.

We bought & paid for the country, so we get to peek under the covers.

Old_Chief_Scott: Well, maybe now they will go ahead and tell us what was going on with the attack on the USS Liberty.

... The early 70s called and wanted to tell you that this has been done and redone and really nothing left to say about this now.

'Hey Israel, uh, just wanted to say it looks like we forgot to tell you we have been bugging your embassy and intercepting all your communications for the last 70 years. Sorry about that you caught us.'

Fixed.

Ok wall of text doesn't get your point across it gets you post skipped. :(

Snarfangel: Pollard is an American citizen. Now, it may be that the people bugging the Israeli Embassy are Israeli citizens, in which case I fully expect that Israel will treat them as traitors and toss them in jail if they are ever caught by Mossad.

I wasn't serious, just in case that wasn't clear. I was just mildly amused at how some people then considered spying on a friendly country such a horrible horrible and disgusting crime, and are going to come in here and say that it's not a big deal at all.

Bladel: We bought & paid for the country, so we get to peek under the covers.

And Israel has given much more than it has received, so we get to take a peek too?

Gwendolyn: Ok wall of text doesn't get your point across it gets you post skipped. :(

Not my fault if people here have the attention span of ADD 12 year olds on meth.

Then again they might also choose wilful ignorance in order to continue bashing Israel without realizing that this argument of 'We give them so much and get nothing' is absolutely ridiculous and that America has in fact gotten much more out of the deal than it gave.

Tatsuma: Also, what are you talking about 'thousands of American lives in 'protection'?

iraq war(s)

Tatsuma: Old_Chief_Scott: Well, maybe now they will go ahead and tell us what was going on with the attack on the USS Liberty.

... The early 70s called and wanted to tell you that this has been done and redone and really nothing left to say about this now.

Oh really?

Why don't you tell me the "official" explaination?

Tatsuma: Then again they might also choose wilful ignorance in order to continue bashing Israel without realizing that this argument of 'We give them so much and get nothing' is absolutely ridiculous and that America has in fact gotten much more out of the deal than it gave.

See?

WTF Indeed: Yes, but what have you done for us lately?

US: 'Hey Israel, uh, just wanted to say it looks like we forgot to tell you we have been bugging your embassy and intercepting all your communications for the last 70 years. Sorry about that'

Just to be clear-- the above is subby's apology on behalf of the US Government. It is evidently based on subby's own private intelligence collection efforts since it is not reflective of anything in the linked article.

The use of quotes by subby is not indicative of anything actually being said by anyone in the government now or previously.

// Interested in the Israeli reaction. Subby, why don't you make that up too?

FlashHarry: iraq war(s)

Israel had nothing to do with those.

Old_Chief_Scott: Why don't you tell me the "official" explaination?

I just linked to it. This is an historian who had access to both American and Israeli intelligence and army material and he was able to put a complete picture of what happened.

I'd be surprised to find out if there was a country in the world the US wasn't spying on.

/except maybe Mongolia

Tatsuma: Israel has sent tons of invaluable information to American, to begin with.

Right, why would we bother bugging someone with shiatty information? That wouldn't be a very good idea.

Tatsuma: As everyone agreed Pollard getting life in prison was a fair sentence, I am sure everyone will agree to send all those involved in spying on Israeli soil (and that's what an embassy is) to be arrested, remanded to Israel and sent for life in prison after fair trials, right?

I don't know, I think we ought to be able to know what we're paying for.

Gwendolyn: Ok wall of text doesn't get your point across it gets you post skipped. :(

It's almost as if it was prepared in advance...

notmtwain: Just to be clear-- the above is subby's apology on behalf of the US Government.

Just to be clear, this is Fark.com where people post headlines that sometimes do not reflect TFA article but rather what they know will lead to a greenlight.



/welcome, new poster.

Tatsuma: I just linked to it

Where would that link be precisely?

EatHam: Right, why would we bother bugging someone with shiatty information? That wouldn't be a very good idea.

Let's see. On one hand you have the man in charge of the Air Force Intelligence who declared that Israel's help was invaluable and that America couldn't do the same with five C.I.A.s and plenty of other congressmen and people privy to classified intelligence who make similar statements.

On the other hand, internet poster 'eatham' who says that it's all shiatty information.

Well now I must really ponder for a long time whose statement I will accept as f

wee: I don't know, I think we ought to be able to know what we're paying for.

You more than already know, see subsequent post

wee: It's almost as if it was prepared in advance...

yet it wasn't

another one added to the wilful ignorance list I suppose.

Old_Chief_Scott: Where would that link be precisely?

Try here

Tatsuma: On the other hand, internet poster 'eatham' who says that it's all shiatty information.

Well now I must really ponder for a long time whose statement I will accept as f

No, I'm saying that the information was proven to be good, that's why they wanted to put bugs in that embassy. As opposed to bugging someone who didn't know shiat.

EatHam: No, I'm saying that the information was proven to be good, that's why they wanted to put bugs in that embassy. As opposed to bugging someone who didn't know shiat.

Oh, sorry about that.

Sometimes when you defend yourself, you sadly create collateral damage instead of hitting your target. Bad posters are hiding all around you. It's against the Godwin convention.

Aarontology: So America gives Israel money to pay back the money Israel owes America.

Again, blame Jimmy Carter who created that deal. Israel, instead of using the money that HAS to be sent as per a treaty, sends it back to pay back the loans we got.

Instead of taking the free money, we're giving it back.

Tatsuma: Again, blame Jimmy Carter

KyngNothing: I think I fixed that for you... After all, Israel has no problem with their own citizens giving up classified information to other friendly countries, right (new window)?

Mordechai Vanunu released classified information to the public (and hence enemies of Israel), not to friendly countries. Not exactly the same.

Even in spying, there are degrees. Wouldn't you agree that what Pollard did (pass classified information that should have been sent to Israel but was withheld) is not on the same level as Aldrich Ames, who sent information to the Soviet that led to intelligence sources being killed all over the world and endangering American national security?

Personally I do agree that Pollard deserved to send decades in jail, however a life sentence, especially in light of other sentences for people who spied for non-friendly countries and had americans killed, is disproportionate and cruel. Three decades is enough.

It's kind of a dick-move to spy on your allies, no matter who does it.

Wendy's Chili: Tatsuma: Again, blame Jimmy Carter

[thumb2.mixcloud.com image 300x300]

He's history's greatest monster!

Tatsuma: Instead of taking the free money, we're giving it back.

Ah. So it's the tanks and guns and air defense systems that are free, then.

I appreciate the point that you're trying to make, but I've sprained my brain trying to follow the mental gymnastics.

WTF Indeed: The real problem we have with Israel is that no matter how much money we make selling you things, it costs American lives to be your ally. Thousands of American troops have died protecting your country from threats you could have taken care of yourself, and thousands more American civilians have died because of those protection missions.

Again, HOW is that the case?

WTF Indeed: And how does Israel respond? They build a giant wall around their own countrymen



WTF Indeed: and treat them as little more then slaves.



WTF Indeed: . Until then, expect no sympathy from any American who are smart enough to not give their money to preachers to help bring Jesus back.

Except that support of Israel is a bi-partisan issue and it has never been as high as it's been this last decade.

Tatsuma: Old_Chief_Scott: Where would that link be precisely?

Try here

OK. that convinces me.

"Michael B. Oren is a Senior Fellow at The Shalem Center in Jerusalem"

*rolls eyes*

WTF Indeed: The real problem we have with Israel is that no matter how much money we make selling you things, it costs American lives to be your ally. Thousands of American troops have died protecting your country from threats you could have taken care of yourself, and thousands more American civilians have died because of those protection missions.

WTF is right. WTF are you talking about?

Aarontology: Except it's not really paying America back. It's essentially forgiving the debts in a really roundabout way.

No, let's put it like this:

We enter into a contractual agreement. In the future, every year you will send me $300 bucks in return for certain services. $180 you send me as a loan, and $120 to help ends meet.

I started to make ends meet a long time ago, but contractually, you are still obligated to send me that aid money. So instead of just going wild and spending it (which absolutely would be my right), I decide to give it back every time to pay back my loan.

Not only that, but the $180 loan, I spend $150 at your business.

All in all the only 'real loss' you have every year is that $30 which I have to pay back.

And do, as the debt is nearly liquidated, as I send you money outside of that $120 that I give back to you every year.