whatshisname: Krieghund: You and the article writer dont understand percentages.

Everything is more expensive in NYC. Including the food in restaurants. You already are compensating for the increase in cost of living when you're paying $15 on a hundred dollar tab instead of $10 on a 66.66 tab.


Exactly, and why has the tip percentage increased from 0 to 20% over the years? To keep up with inflation, of course! Which doesn't make sense because the food prices are inflating.

I'm pretty sure that by 2015, 25% will be the "normal" tip.

In NYC, 25% to 30% is already a normal tip. The author here is being modest because hes writing to a national crowd and lest he be accused of troll baiting (which he kinda already is).

NYC bars and restaurants thats he talking about that include the 20% gratuity do so in the most misleading fashion. In the typical suburban join they might do thay for parties of 6 or more but just hand you the chexk with line to sign off on. In NY they put the tip in small print right above the tax then an inch down in the bill is a huge "tip here _________" so unsuspecting tourists often tip 35%-50%. They even do that if you just go up and order a beer, they're already including tip in their charge but everyone drops a dollar "cuz thats what your spose to do'"

The locals are idiots as well. I often see people tip over 100% for the most retarded reasons. One time I was out to lunch with a guy that ordered a water, and they gave him a lemon so he took it out and put on a napkin. He orders a refill so the waiter cleans up his glass and lemon that was sitting on the table and comes out with only a water this time. This guy was so impressed he dropped a $100 bill on a meal that probablty cost us 50 bucks.

I always laugh when provincials talk about how awesome of a tipper they are because they tip 25% - 30%, round these parts that wont even raise an eyebrow, theyll just scoop it up and move on. Waiters here often make 6 figures, i actually knew a girl that was raking it in i figured she was must have a high class waitressing job, turns out she was working at appleebees (got laid off though and had to move out of ny).

Im totally done with the whole tipping thing. Ive been around great tippers, shiatty tippers, non tippers, and obscene tippers, and i honestly never once saw a difference in service. The only thing i can say is that obscene tippers do get barbacks. Thats what you get when you tip 5 bucks a drink tho, id rather just keep the five bucks and buy 2 or 3 extra drinks with it instead of the occasional free one.

Can we just raise the price of food accordingly to be even with a 20% tip, I generally tip more than that if there is good service but feel annoyed with forced gratuity(not in the case of very large partys, cheap bastards gonna be cheap bastards.)

It will KILL high end waiters and maybe help waiters in crap places

Take it from my friends who work in the service industy in North Carolina:

DragonDeadite: I tip my waiter based on the service I receive. If you're there refilling my iced-tea before it can get empty and bring me the extra ranch for my onion rings I ask for the first time, you get a good tip, and I'm happy. If you bring my date sour milk...

Uh, what? Is that a euphemism for something? Or are you dating somebody under the age of 12?

Regardless of the arguments for and against tipping, unless this applies to every restaurant in NYC (I'm assuming it doesn't), the people whining about it are probably the assholes who don't tip, which is what the "service charge" seems designed to address.

So what's the problem? If you don't normally go to fancy-pants restaurants with this policy, STFU, it doesn't affect you. And if you do go to fancy-pants restaurants, shiatty service probably isn't something you're going to have to worry about. They go out of their way (I hear) to kiss up to the rich customers who can afford to blow $300 on a single meal. So if Mr. Moneybags has to cough up 20% for a service charge, so what? He should. If not, he can sashay into McDonald's and see if he can get any of those wage slaves to kiss his ass the way the ones at Per Se or Le Bernardin will.

Plus, fancy restaurants in NYC get a lot of Wall Street types, I imagine, so the more money coming from them and going to people who actually work for a living the better, as far as I'm concerned.

Smelly Pirate Hooker: Regardless of the arguments for and against tipping, unless this applies to every restaurant in NYC (I'm assuming it doesn't), the people whining about it are probably the assholes who don't tip, which is what the "service charge" seems designed to address.

You know how I know you didn't RTFA? Fourth paragraph:

For sure, restaurants and bars charging automatic tips must clearly say so. That point aside, 20 percent is the appropriate tip in New York -- in diners as well as at four-star joints. Everything is more expensive here. Deal with it.

What if your shiatty waiter IS the manager? Omg. We used to love this place near our house. Then I took my mother there and the waitress was terrible. She never checked on us. We would wait 15 minutes, trying to catch her eye and then would grab another waitress, who would get our things. This 15 minute wait thing happened 2 separate times over our meal there. We never even got our complete meal that we ordered. We got our check from yet another waitress and when she saw us filling it out, she finally came over. I asked her if she intended to bring us our toast (it was breakfast) before we left, and she went and got us untoasted bread in a bag.

She never showed again, and as we were leaving I asked one of the decent waitress if I could speak to the manager. Guess who it was? Our waitress, of course. I left no tip and explained exactly why on a comment card, and included my phone number. Only time I have left zero tip. And she deserved every penny.

Never heard from them, and will never go back to this local French eatery. And I stopped recommending the place too. If she is the manager, the place has gone to shiat.

valkore: You know how I know you didn't RTFA? Fourth paragraph: For sure, restaurants and bars charging automatic tips must clearly say so. That point aside, 20 percent is the appropriate tip in New York -- in diners as well as at four-star joints. Everything is more expensive here. Deal with it.

People are biatching about the tip being added automatically, not about tipping in general.

First sentence of the article that I did read, genius: "Some cheapskates are whining about mandatory tips at a handful of New York restaurants ..."

My husband and I went to a restaurant and got terrible service, it was the only time I've never left a tip. Nearly empty, brought his, but not my, drink (we both ordered sodas, so it wasn't even a booze/no booze thing). Failed to bring food in a timely manner, or offer refills. Disappeared for an age while we waited for our bill. When we asked for our bill from another waitress, her answer was a brusque "where's your waiter." Well if we knew that, we wouldn't have to ask you, would we?

On the other hand, I left a rather generous tip (just over 25%) on a nice dinner tonight. I was alone (traveling for business) and an early seating, and the kitchen was got my salad and soup out way too close together. She noticed, offered to get me new soup and made damn sure that I was not rushed the rest of the meal. She let me sit there and read my book while I ate and didn't feel compelled to make conversation (often the case when I dine alone). Plus, she was a total sport about splitting it between my corporate card and personal, since I blew through my per diem.

Orange Guy: I generally tip 2X the tax. It's easy math.

Next, they'll tax the tip. Then you'll have to pay a tip on that added tax.

iollow: what_now: I think I've tipped less than 15% once in the past several years. 20% is my standard, 15% for bad service, less than 15% for outright rude, speak to the manager, service.

wee: nd if I don't (or tip low), I tell a manager why. Maybe it's not the waiter's fault, but since I had no interaction with the cook or anyone else in the chain from the kitchen to the table, that's who gets to find out about it.

Well, you're a dick. You'd tip a waiter badly for things he had no control over? You speak to a manger and get free shiat when your food is bad, and you never come back.

I use "never come back" and "bad yelp reviews" a lot more than bad tipping, because that's going to effect the place a LOT more than me stiffing a waiter.

Then the resturaunt should allow every employee to share the tips - the guys who wash silverware, the cooks, etc. I'm not tipping well if I get bad food. The waiter at least can scold the cook afterward for getting a bad tip.

I agree. If the food was obviously miscooked or horribly presented, the waiter shares that blame. If they don't mind carrying a turd to my table, figuring "it wasn't myfault", then fark them too.

I assume that even with the mandatory 20% fee, if your service was truly subpar, you could speak with management to have the amount adjusted (and possibly improve future service in the process.)

In the last month I've given the full range of 0 and 20%. The 0 was for piss poor service with a extra serving of rude waitress. Management also tossed in a free appetizer voucher for a next visit upon my complaint.

15% for bad service

A fool and their money are soon parted.

A required "tip" isn't a tip, it's a fee.

I stiffed my waitress the other day. I waited forever (with my menu already closed) just to get my water, and quite a bit more before I was allowed to order. I was sitting alone, but I was willing to take the tiny table which doesn't face the beach. Food was decent (been there before). In Oregon, she gets minimum wage anyway, so I'm ok with not tipping her.

Normally, I tip just fine, albeit a bit on the cheap side. 20% is not normal for this guy.


Also, if everything is more expensive in NYC, like TFA says, wouldn't my 15% tip be worth more there if the meal cost more?

Start at 15%.

Add a percent every time an expectation is exceeded.

Subtract one every time an expectation is failed.

If less than 5% at end of visit, make up the rest with a verbal tip, to help the waiter achieve proficiency.

dukeblue219: This logic confuses me:

a mandatory service charge democratizes the restaurant experience for both customers and staff. Waiters and sommeliers don't have to "up-sell" pricier choices in hopes of pocketing bigger bucks.

A mandatory 20% charge is still a percentage, not a flat-fee....

This. Writer needs to go back to 6th grade math. Any upsell puts more money in their wallets, but with an auto 20%, they dont have to worry about customers getting pissed at their aggressive sales pitches. Worst of both worlds.

America is a nation of holdouts for tipping, the messiest way to pay.

mr_a: So what are the odds that Steve Cuozzo, the author of that finely written piece of nonsense, was a waiter before he got the NYPost gig?

And will be again.

Gee whiz, 20%??? I live in NYC and eat out every now and then but 20% would make me do a double take. I usually do 15-18%. Call me cheap, whatever. What does the waiter do to deserve 20%? If I'm eating a $150 meal for 2 in midtown, I'm supposed to toss in another $30 for an hour's work? All I've ever gotten at a restaurant from the waiter is the guy takes my order, and checks if it's ok. Often another guy brings the food.

I'll put 20% if it's a hot waitress.

And I donno what Asian country does mandatory tipping. I've been to China, Thailand, Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan and none of them have a real tipping culture.

Oh, another thing, as much as NY sucks for tipping, New York State is actually one of the few states (maybe the only?) that actually has court precedent against including mandatory tips. Thus, most of the menus might say something like "as a courtesy, 20% gratuity is automatically included", hence the "as a courtesy" qualifier, like it's supposed to help you out or something. But a "gratuity" is voluntary, hence the tax preference. While a "service fee" actually is going to the restaurant, taxed accordingly, then passed to the waiter to be taxed on income. A double taxation that a gratuity doesn't have.

At any bar or restaurant you can ask the server to take off the gratuity. They won't even give you any shiat or surprise looks as they probably already know the deal from their managers. Some of these hick states down south they might just call the cops on you if you request not to tip the automatic amount.

dukeblue219: This logic confuses me:

That's because it isn't logic, it's ignorance.

Yes, they will still upsell, OBVIOUSLY (big letters for the author of the piece, not you).

wee: mfsteve: mr_a: So what are the odds that Steve Cuozzo, the author of that finely written piece of nonsense, was a waiter before he got the NYPost gig?

I'm going with 100%.

He does seem to toe the "You must always tip, regardless of how bad the service was" party line like a formal professional. He also seems to use that as the fulcrum of his reasoning. With automatic tips, server performance is a non-issue.


Author is a typical NYC douche, setting tourists straight. I like New York in 72 hour increments, but in some ways it is the biggest hicktown in the world - chock full of greenhorns and wankers. Where else could you make a living playing 3 card Monte on top of a cardboard box?

Get bad service? Complain about it on your way out the door. Mention it to your friends.

i live in the philippines and here there is a standard 10% service charge in most "service restaurants" as part of your bill, (not for fast food or over the counter type)
It is commonly accepted and you just tip more if you like the service. So mostly you will tip another 5% or so.

mrshowrules: SumoJeb: mrshowrules: In Canada, waiters/waitresses have to automatically declare a minimum of 10% of receipts as gratuity wages. If you tip less than 10%, you are actually making them pay tax on money they didn't get.

That is not true. You declare what your gross revenue is from gratuities and are taxed accordingly. This goes for all professions that accept gratuities. A quick google of the CRA website would have told you this..
/I don't know any servers or other professionals that receive gratuities that claim all of their revenues from tips.
//I've never declared gratuities for taxes.. although I have received lots of gratuities in different occupations. No paper trail = no reason to claim.

I know several people in the industry and their employers automatically submit 10% of receipts as the their income via the payroll systems. I think this is more of a standard industry practice as opposed to a CRA policy.

your anecdotal experiences do not transfer to "The Industry" (Why do F&B people say that.. ???) as a whole. Just because your friends are working for shiatty bosses and are too limp-wristed to ask to be taxed fairly doesn't mean the rest of employees in the F&B sector act in a similar fashion. Standard industry practice is to follow CRA guidelines for payroll and taxes.

But I'm sure you know way more than me on the subject. I've only worked as an employer and employee in the hospitality, food and beverage industry my entire life.

SumoJeb: your anecdotal experiences do not transfer to "The Industry" (Why do F&B people say that.. ???) as a whole. Just because your friends are working for shiatty bosses and are too limp-wristed to ask to be taxed fairly doesn't mean the rest of employees in the F&B sector act in a similar fashion. Standard industry practice is to follow CRA guidelines for payroll and taxes.

At some of the more corporatey places now the server doesn't have anything to do with bill or tip. It's collected by someone else and the tip is automatically put in the computer (usually on credit anyways) and pooled togethor with the exact taxation. If a server (theoretically) didn't make make up in tips for the state's minimum wage their payroll is automatically calculated to increase their direct wage. It's not matter of "bringing it up to the boss".

I'm not saying that's the case everywhere but that's probably the direction it's heading.

There is no better service than in Japan and they are a non tipping culture.

A set service charge is better. Then it's almost like no tipping at all, just think of the prices on the menu are just reduced from the actual cost. Everything is 20% more expensive then listed and at the end of the night, you don't tip.

mrshowrules: I know several people in the industry and their employers automatically submit 10% of receipts as the their income via the payroll systems. I think this is more of a standard industry practice as opposed to a CRA policy.

Maybe in Ottawa. But, I've never seen or heard of that in Vancouver. Not saying it doesn't exist, but it's not industry standard.

One thing I have learned from this thread:
If I tip more than 10%, I'm making myself an accessory to tax fraud.
That wouldn't be right, wouldn't be proper!

FloydA: People who don't tip under any circumstances (and those who leave bible tracts instead of cash) should simply not go out to eat.

I remember Dave Ramsey going off on this very subject. Here you have a guy who recommends cutting back, including going out to eat, and even he still says that you should pay a person who does work for you. (If they're bad, you can always dispute it with a manager and even get the meal comped. Trust me, it's way more effective than leaving little or no tip.) And specifically regarding the Bible tracts, I'll never forget him saying, "Don't use Jesus as your excuse to be a cheapskate."

A tip would be more meaningful if it truly was a compliment to good service rather than a necessary portion of a server's paycheck. Most people who live outside the U.S. don't tip well because they don't understand the concept of having the customer pay your wait staff for you. In the U.S., servers are not paid a full minimum wage. They're paid $2.13/hour, and the customer makes up the difference. In other countries, restaurants pay their own wait staff and the customer pays the bill. And if you want to leave a little extra for someone who does well, then that's okay, too.

And yes you do get better service when the staff is better paid and not worried about whether or not you're going to be the fifth guy in a row to stiff them regardless of service provided. People do tend to concentrate better on other things when there's one less thing to worry about.

A couple restaurants that I love automatically add 20% gratuity to every bill. At first, I found it very infuriating, but I think I really get better service at those places than almost anywhere else I go. I finally decided that servers know that upset customers can't just stiff them on the tip and leave, instead they talk to the manager about the crappy service. I think the fear of having pissed off customers take it up with the manager ensures that they always work to earn that 20%. While I hated it at first, I must admit that the automatic gratuity system does seem to work pretty well.

These threads always fill up with spiteful waitstaff saying things like "tip or gtfo, we'll spit in your food, never go to a restaurant if you dont tip, we don't want your business," etc.

Just wondering how the restaurant owners and managers feel about this.

Ya'll eager to drive off paying customers who simply won't be extorted from? Does the business not make a profit if the waitstaff is not tipped? What about getting sued for spit-contaminated food, ya'll happy with that?

Before: "I don't tip because it's not my fault the restaurant doesn't pay its employees enough and besides if they don't like it they can get a better job."

After: "OMG but if the service charge is automatic what incentive does the waiter have to give me good service?!?"

You're cheap. And you're a douche. And quipping about how much better the service is in Europe isn't helping your case.

OK all of you waiters out there, why do you disappear when it's time to obviously bring the check, or at least cycle by to see if I am ready to wrap it up?

This pisses me off more than anything, having to wait to pay. What is the issue, turn the tables and let's move on

supayoda: I remember Dave Ramsey going off on this very subject. Here you have a guy who recommends cutting back, including going out to eat, and even he still says that you should pay a person who does work for you


Dave Ramsey is not stupid. His face and voice are well known to everyone. He has to say that, he wants to be able to go out and eat without having to go to the emergency room later on.

/Is there any other job in America where no-skilled jerks can get away with threatening to poison you if you don't hand over free money?

FreeLawyer: On the other hand, when me and the boys hit the steak house and run up a $500 bill and the waitstaff is doing well, not much more than at Applebees, and taking almost as many tables, no we are not leaving $100.

This is the problem I run into. After a certain point where the tip goes over 35 - 40 dollars, they're still just bringing food to my table. I need a little more incentive to hand over 20% at that point. There are places that warrant it absolutely, but a lot of expensive places are just...more expensive. I've gone to a lot of places where the bill was reaching 80+ dollars for two people and the wait staff was ignoring us. I don't understand these people.

JohnCarter: This pisses me off more than anything, having to wait to pay. What is the issue, turn the tables and let's move on

This.

I have adhd. I don't care how awesome you think you are. If my credit card is lying on the table and you're jerking off somewhere, your tip is skyrocketing down by the second.

Um, guys, we just have a decent minimum wage. Pretty much makes the whole tip thing redundant. I might leave a few bucks for someone who's done a great job, but there's no sense of obligation.

<csb>
I *always* tip. I delivered pizza for almost 10 years, so I understand the importance of tipping. Here's the one exception:

Red Lobster (yeah, I know, but I remember going there as a small child and it reminds me of my grandma). The waiter actually had a name tag that said "Trainer". Not "Trainee" but "Trainer". As in, he was training other waiters.

First, I drink a lot of Coke with my meals. I start at a 15% tip and if I never have to wait for a refill, I generally leave 20%. It took almost 10 minutes before we saw our waiter. He took our drink orders and was gone for another 10 minutes. He finally came back with our drinks and took our order. While we were waiting for our food, he brought food out to another table. I overheard this:

Customer: "I ordered my baked potato without sour cream."
Trainer waiter: "Well, you can scrape it off."

W.T.F. So, another 25 minutes passed and our food arrived (my Coke had been empty for 15 minutes). There was no pepper on our table, so I asked for my Coke refill and a pepper shaker.

My crab legs were cold. 10 minutes later, my date (now wife) grabbed a pepper shaker off a nearby table. He finally came by, again, and I asked for my refill, again, and told him not to worry about the pepper because we snatched one from another table. 10 minutes later, he came back with it. I asked for the bill. 15 minutes later, he arrived with the bill.

I left nothing. I was more angry than I've ever been at a waiter. On the way out, I asked for the manager and explained everything that happened. I told her this was my last visit to a Red Lobster because of the poor service.
</csb>

So, mandatory tipping? Only if there's mandatory punching bad waiters in the face with no repercussions.

chu2dogg: I have adhd. I don't care how awesome you think you are. If my credit card is lying on the table and you're jerking off somewhere, your tip is skyrocketing down by the second.

Exactly. But if they notice right away and are quick, their tip is nosediving up!

I usually tip somewhere in the 17/18% range. Last time we went to restaurant I tipped like 40%, because the waiter really did a phenomenal job. I will never not tip, but I will tip extremely poorly if it is warranted. A one dollar tip says something completely different than no tip at all.

For people saying that if you have a problem with the service you should talk to the manager I say no for two reasons:
1. No matter how crappy service might be I don't want to cost someone there job, I just want them to do it better.
2. Most likely if the service is that bad I've been there longer than I wanted/planned, and I just want to get the hell out of there.

Guaranteed tipping takes all of the incentive out of doing what gets you a good tip. I work for my money, you should work for yours.

FloydA: The only thing all of your shiatty servers have in common is geography
FTFY