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(MSNBC)   Image: At 83, subject of 'American Girl in Italy' photo speaks out. Ninalee Craig says image symbolizes independence and fearlessness, not harassment   (today.msnbc.msn.com) divider line 105
    More: Interesting, Italy, independence, bachelorettes  
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25064 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Aug 2011 at 2:00 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-08-19 02:42:04 PM  

Theaetetus: cgraves67: I don't get the feminist angle
bfahle: /still don't get what's feminist about getting leered at

You guys should re-read the article. It's the opposite:
"Some people want to use it as a symbol of harassment of women, but that's what we've been fighting all these years," Craig said in a telephone interview from her home in Toronto. "It's not a symbol of harassment. It's a symbol of a woman having an absolutely wonderful time!"

She's saying that feminists decrying street harassment are wrong, and that she was having a great time being leered at, because they made her feel appreciated. Which is like saying that slavery was empowering because it let you know that someone was willing to pay money for you, rather than being considered worthless.

Which really is quite depressing, honestly.


This analysis proves it (new window)
 
2011-08-19 02:46:10 PM  

catsfish: Nice Lambretta, Guido.


I bet it's a lovely shade of vermillion...
 
2011-08-19 02:47:36 PM  

cgraves67: I don't get the feminist angle. The woman looks disapproving possibly even scared, definitely not enjoying the attention.


Then you really did miss the point.

Disapproving? Sure. Scared? No, mildly disgusted by the unwanted attention. But... the implied motion in that image is really the point. Because that fleeting feeling of awkwardness lasts but a moment, and she's in the midst of a travel adventure that she'll remember THE ENTIRE REST OF HER LIFE. What a small price to pay!

Those were different times. Many (most?) American women of that era might have allowed the fear of that brief moment to rob themselves of such a deeply rewarding experience. "Oh dear, don't go, those wops will pinch your bottom, you know."

But look again at the shot... she's not slowing down for a goddamn second. She's going to go do what SHE wants to do.

I love that woman.

/traveler
//have experienced far more awkward moments, and in much farther-away places
 
2011-08-19 02:52:53 PM  

rickythepenguin: his photo taken on Aug. 12 shows Craig standing next to Orkin's iconic image and wearing the same orange shawl she wore in the photo nearly 60 years ago.


Jesus. I can barely keep the same pair of underwear intact for more than 3 weeks.


Yeah, well, try not dropping a deuce in them every other day.
 
2011-08-19 03:01:25 PM  

Mr_Fabulous: Then you really did miss the point.
Disapproving? Sure. Scared? No, mildly disgusted by the unwanted attention. But... the implied motion in that image is really the point. Because that fleeting feeling of awkwardness lasts but a moment, and she's in the midst of a travel adventure that she'll remember THE ENTIRE REST OF HER LIFE. What a small price to pay!
Those were different times. Many (most?) American women of that era might have allowed the fear of that brief moment to rob themselves of such a deeply rewarding experience. "Oh dear, don't go, those wops will pinch your bottom, you know."
But look again at the shot... she's not slowing down for a goddamn second. She's going to go do what SHE wants to do.
I love that woman.


Nicely stated, and I agree with you.
What kind of a boring life do you have if you are always in your comfort zone?
 
2011-08-19 03:04:20 PM  

tricycleracer: cgraves67: A person who is fearless and independent wouldn't appear to be fleeing from unsolicited attention.

It was a different time then. Different values.

If she was in modern day Florence at that age, I'm sure she would have lined up all those guys and made like a circus seal.


goregirl.files.wordpress.com

no no yes! no no yes! no no no no no no
 
2011-08-19 03:09:45 PM  
1951: Elegant young American woman turns heads in Italy.
2011: Snooki turns stomachs in Italy.
 
2011-08-19 03:11:06 PM  

Theaetetus: cgraves67: I don't get the feminist angle
bfahle: /still don't get what's feminist about getting leered at

You guys should re-read the article. It's the opposite:
"Some people want to use it as a symbol of harassment of women, but that's what we've been fighting all these years," Craig said in a telephone interview from her home in Toronto. "It's not a symbol of harassment. It's a symbol of a woman having an absolutely wonderful time!"

She's saying that feminists decrying street harassment are wrong, and that she was having a great time being leered at, because they made her feel appreciated. Which is like saying that slavery was empowering because it let you know that someone was willing to pay money for you, rather than being considered worthless.

Which really is quite depressing, honestly.


No no, its like nazi germany you see... and those guys are Hitler, or maybe she'shiatler, I'm not sure... *someone* is definitely Hitler and there is basically a holocaust - but worse!

/literally Hitler
//and teh slavery
 
2011-08-19 03:11:53 PM  

CitizenTed: 1951: Elegant young American woman turns heads in Italy.
2011: Snooki turns stomachs in Italy.


cardiobrief.files.wordpress.com
 
2011-08-19 03:17:36 PM  

Mr_Fabulous: cgraves67: I don't get the feminist angle. The woman looks disapproving possibly even scared, definitely not enjoying the attention.

Then you really did miss the point.

Disapproving? Sure. Scared? No, mildly disgusted by the unwanted attention. But... the implied motion in that image is really the point. Because that fleeting feeling of awkwardness lasts but a moment, and she's in the midst of a travel adventure that she'll remember THE ENTIRE REST OF HER LIFE. What a small price to pay!

Those were different times. Many (most?) American women of that era might have allowed the fear of that brief moment to rob themselves of such a deeply rewarding experience. "Oh dear, don't go, those wops will pinch your bottom, you know."

But look again at the shot... she's not slowing down for a goddamn second. She's going to go do what SHE wants to do.

I love that woman.

/traveler
//have experienced far more awkward moments, and in much farther-away places


I must be missing the point. I don't see a person who isn't letting anyone stop her from going to her destination. I see a woman fleeing a place where she doesn't feel safe. I get the impression that she took a wrong turn into this neighborhood and is backtracking when she realized she is surrounded by strangers. Diverted from her path. I see a woman who is having an experience that is ruining her opinion of Italy. Fearlessness would be in embracing the local culture and revelling in it, not speeding through it with an averted gaze.

She is rigid. Tight like a wound spring. She looks like she would break out into a sprint if one of them touched her. Her face is tense. She seems to be focusing on not looking at any of them.
 
2011-08-19 03:19:27 PM  
All you people who haven't seen this before - haven't you been in any print/poster shop in the mall for the past 20 years?
 
2011-08-19 03:19:36 PM  

cryinoutloud: Mr_Fabulous: Then you really did miss the point.
Disapproving? Sure. Scared? No, mildly disgusted by the unwanted attention. But... the implied motion in that image is really the point. Because that fleeting feeling of awkwardness lasts but a moment, and she's in the midst of a travel adventure that she'll remember THE ENTIRE REST OF HER LIFE. What a small price to pay!
Those were different times. Many (most?) American women of that era might have allowed the fear of that brief moment to rob themselves of such a deeply rewarding experience. "Oh dear, don't go, those wops will pinch your bottom, you know."
But look again at the shot... she's not slowing down for a goddamn second. She's going to go do what SHE wants to do.
I love that woman.

Nicely stated, and I agree with you.
What kind of a boring life do you have if you are always in your comfort zone?


Thanks. You wouldn't believe how many aghast faces I see when I tell people where I'm going next (Hanoi, Luong Prabang, rural Turkey, hiking in the Dolomites, whatever). And when I tell them I'm bringing my teenage daughter with me, they literally lose their farking composure.

People fear what they don't know.

People who experience more fear less.

/wants to see it all
//and take pix
 
2011-08-19 03:20:56 PM  

cgraves67: She is rigid. Tight like a wound spring. She looks like she would break out into a sprint if one of them touched her. Her face is tense. She seems to be focusing on not looking at any of them.


Or...

The main subject, the girl walking in the street while not less than 15 men look at her, was an American art student that Ruth Orkin met at her hotel in Florence. Jinx Allen, the art student who became her model for a photo essay based on their joint experience as women traveling alone in Europe. By chance that day the two walked through the now famous gauntlet of gawking men. Orking turned and photographed Allen behind her. Orkin asked Allen to walk through again, and with that she captured the legendary image. It took only two exposures.

Link (new window)

/But I'm sure you know how she really feels.
 
2011-08-19 03:22:15 PM  

nutkick_42: Car_Ramrod: meat0918: I've never seen this photo.

PYROY: The iconic photo that no one has ever seen.

Ok, thank you. I was worried that I was the only one that's never seen this before.

Good, it's not just me.


Yeah, I've never seen it, either, and I've long enjoyed looking at old photographs and photography books and magazines. So I wonder where this picture was actually popular?

I mean, *everyone* has seen the picture of the sailor kissing the nurse in NYC at the end of WWII, so I was kind of expecting a picture like that when I clicked.
 
2011-08-19 03:31:47 PM  

Mr_Fabulous: Thanks. You wouldn't believe how many aghast faces I see when I tell people where I'm going next (Hanoi, Luong Prabang, rural Turkey, hiking in the Dolomites, whatever). And when I tell them I'm bringing my teenage daughter with me, they literally lose their farking composure.
People fear what they don't know.
People who experience more fear less.


I have a....not a death wish, I think I've heard it called "the risk-taker gene", and you must have it too. The mindset that makes you think it's a good idea to go climb mountains that might kill you, do things like that.

Far as I can tell, you either have it or you don't, and there's no point in arguing about it. Or trying to talk people out of it.

/it's not a death wish.
 
2011-08-19 03:31:48 PM  
I've never seen this photo before and agree with those who say it doesn't look like she's enjoying herself.
 
2011-08-19 03:35:54 PM  
For those acting like you're all worldly and smart, and feel that the article misrepresented this photo as iconic, and are surprised that you haven't seen this picture, Don't be! I can assure you that you're not half as intelligent of observant as you think you are. This picture is everywhere and has been for years.
 
2011-08-19 03:40:22 PM  
Dear Rapmaster 2000:

Thanks a lot for sharing the Onion point/counterpoint.....I remember that one from 'way back in 1999, and how much I laughed at it.....

KM
 
2011-08-19 03:47:19 PM  

tricycleracer: Theaetetus: cgraves67: I don't get the feminist angle
bfahle: /still don't get what's feminist about getting leered at

You guys should re-read the article. It's the opposite:
"Some people want to use it as a symbol of harassment of women, but that's what we've been fighting all these years," Craig said in a telephone interview from her home in Toronto. "It's not a symbol of harassment. It's a symbol of a woman having an absolutely wonderful time!"

She's saying that feminists decrying street harassment are wrong, and that she was having a great time being leered at, because they made her feel appreciated. Which is like saying that slavery was empowering because it let you know that someone was willing to pay money for you, rather than being considered worthless.

Which really is quite depressing, honestly.

I generally agree with you, but:

[demotivate.me image 640x502]


You have to crop out the cro-mag Hooters girl on the left if you're going to use that caption.

What is that, a five-brow?
 
2011-08-19 03:47:31 PM  

cryinoutloud: /it's not a death wish.


"Life wish" would be far more accurate. At least for me.

I might not qualify as a "thrill seeker". I go and do the things I do because it is a glorious farking world out there, filled with wonders that are hard to express. I don't want to sound like Rutger Hauer at the end of Blade Runner here... but there's a reason why that dying speech chokes me up every time.
 
2011-08-19 03:55:44 PM  
d1535dk28ea235.cloudfront.net
 
2011-08-19 03:57:47 PM  

Mr_Fabulous:
"Life wish" would be far more accurate. At least for me.
I might not qualify as a "thrill seeker". I go and do the things I do because it is a glorious farking world out there, filled with wonders that are hard to express. I don't want to sound like Rutger Hauer at the end of Blade Runner here... but there's a reason why that dying speech chokes me up every time.


See, that's how YOU see it. And how I see it too. Why wouldn't you do these things if you can?
While everybody else loses their shiat that you'd want to do something so "dangerous."
 
2011-08-19 04:08:58 PM  
Hmm. I haven't seen that picture in the Red Robin I frequent. Therefore, it is NOT iconic!

/I said good day!
 
2011-08-19 04:22:59 PM  

sleeper2995: [d1535dk28ea235.cloudfront.net image 349x465]


Paris Hilton has a healthy, twin sister?
 
2011-08-19 04:29:24 PM  

bhcompy: Either she's really tall or those Italians were really small


Read TFA sometime. She's 6'.
 
2011-08-19 04:49:45 PM  
Who wants to buy a copy of a picture of a feminist scene? Now, who wants to buy a picture of a young lady in Italy? It's famous. You've seen it hundreds of times. It's controversial and it's an anniversary edition!

Ah, marketing.
 
2011-08-19 05:03:35 PM  

Mr_Fabulous:
I might not qualify as a "thrill seeker". I go and do the things I do because it is a glorious farking world out there, filled with wonders that are hard to express. I don't want to sound like Rutger Hauer at the end of Blade Runner here... but there's a reason why that dying speech chokes me up every time.


That scene is one of maybe five where men are allowed to cry at at a movie. ;-)

Me, I had a health scare last October...it was a wake-up call that I am not going to live forever and that I should get off my ass and do some traveling while I have the time, money, and health to do so.
 
2011-08-19 05:35:32 PM  

sleeper2995: [d1535dk28ea235.cloudfront.net image 349x465]


after the plastic surgery she doesn't even look like herself. It's such a farking shame.
 
2011-08-19 05:36:22 PM  

geekbikerskum: I should get off my ass and do some traveling while I have the time, money, and health to do so.


where you goin' first?
 
2011-08-19 05:50:53 PM  

Theaetetus: Which is like saying that slavery was empowering because it let you know that someone was willing to pay money for you, rather than being considered worthless.


Go read about Oliver Cromwell and the Irish he sent to America as slaves. They had no value and were worked to death without any concern. People who were paid for did have value and were treated as assets.
 
2011-08-19 05:52:47 PM  
I see that photo at least every other week at Penn Mac.

/Yinzers know what I'm talkin' 'bout
 
2011-08-19 06:02:35 PM  
img.skitch.com

If broads were more classy and less bashful, there'd be no discussion.
 
2011-08-19 06:29:54 PM  

cgraves67: I must be missing the point. I don't see a person who isn't letting anyone stop her from going to her destination. I see a woman fleeing a place where she doesn't feel safe.


Maybe what you're seeing says more about you than it does about the picture.

/how does that make you feel?
 
2011-08-19 07:50:52 PM  

habitual_masticator: cgraves67: I must be missing the point. I don't see a person who isn't letting anyone stop her from going to her destination. I see a woman fleeing a place where she doesn't feel safe.

Maybe what you're seeing says more about you than it does about the picture.

/how does that make you feel?



Nah, she can say what she wants now... and maybe this is just a fleeting instant that creates a misperception of the whole, but that is NOT happy body language.

That's not something people are reading into it. She looks pinched, closed off, very unhappy, her eyes are cast starkly downward as if to deliberately avoid making eye contact, and she appears to be rushing along. That gives the impression that she's scared, sheltering herself for protection, trying to avoid engaging or encouraging anyone, and fleeing.


Which of these is "a woman having an absolutely wonderful time?"
i180.photobucket.com
 
2011-08-19 08:02:05 PM  

mekkab: geekbikerskum: I should get off my ass and do some traveling while I have the time, money, and health to do so.

where you goin' first?


Went to Amsterdam earlier this year, am contemplating some ecotourism in Central or South America during the winter months. (With maybe a side trip to lie on a beach somewhere for a couple of days.)

Some of this is about discovering what kinds of places I like to go to, and what kinds of things I like to do. This is all kinda new to me so I'm going for breadth over depth first.
 
2011-08-19 08:18:17 PM  

technicolor-misfit: habitual_masticator: cgraves67: I must be missing the point. I don't see a person who isn't letting anyone stop her from going to her destination. I see a woman fleeing a place where she doesn't feel safe.

Maybe what you're seeing says more about you than it does about the picture.

/how does that make you feel?


Nah, she can say what she wants now... and maybe this is just a fleeting instant that creates a misperception of the whole, but that is NOT happy body language.

That's not something people are reading into it. She looks pinched, closed off, very unhappy, her eyes are cast starkly downward as if to deliberately avoid making eye contact, and she appears to be rushing along. That gives the impression that she's scared, sheltering herself for protection, trying to avoid engaging or encouraging anyone, and fleeing.


Which of these is "a woman having an absolutely wonderful time?"
[i180.photobucket.com image 618x370]


Lucky for her you're here to explain to her how frightened sdhe was
 
2011-08-19 08:22:34 PM  
FTFA: 'You know the photo. You've seen it a hundred times.'

Actually, I haven't seen it a hundred times.

If fact, I've never seen it until I read the article.
 
2011-08-19 08:40:23 PM  

technicolor-misfit: habitual_masticator: cgraves67: I must be missing the point. I don't see a person who isn't letting anyone stop her from going to her destination. I see a woman fleeing a place where she doesn't feel safe.

Maybe what you're seeing says more about you than it does about the picture.

/how does that make you feel?


Nah, she can say what she wants now... and maybe this is just a fleeting instant that creates a misperception of the whole, but that is NOT happy body language.

That's not something people are reading into it. She looks pinched, closed off, very unhappy, her eyes are cast starkly downward as if to deliberately avoid making eye contact, and she appears to be rushing along. That gives the impression that she's scared, sheltering herself for protection, trying to avoid engaging or encouraging anyone, and fleeing.


Which of these is "a woman having an absolutely wonderful time?"
[i180.photobucket.com image 618x370]


You don't have to be scared to look like that. You can just be stuck up.
 
2011-08-19 08:48:21 PM  
Italy (at least from Rome south, and especially Sicily) is the gropiest place I've ever seen.
 
2011-08-19 08:50:57 PM  

MaxxLarge: What a cool lady.


No doubt. FTFA: "My life has been wonderful," Craig said. "I'm ready for more." No fear.
 
2011-08-19 08:55:50 PM  

Mr_Fabulous: cgraves67: I don't get the feminist angle. The woman looks disapproving possibly even scared, definitely not enjoying the attention.

Then you really did miss the point.

Disapproving? Sure. Scared? No, mildly disgusted by the unwanted attention. But... the implied motion in that image is really the point. Because that fleeting feeling of awkwardness lasts but a moment, and she's in the midst of a travel adventure that she'll remember THE ENTIRE REST OF HER LIFE. What a small price to pay!

Those were different times. Many (most?) American women of that era might have allowed the fear of that brief moment to rob themselves of such a deeply rewarding experience. "Oh dear, don't go, those wops will pinch your bottom, you know."

But look again at the shot... she's not slowing down for a goddamn second. She's going to go do what SHE wants to do.

I love that woman.

/traveler
//have experienced far more awkward moments, and in much farther-away places


This.

Why must people overly analyze every damn thing to make it fit into their own world view? At 83, this awesome lady is still having more fun than most of us. Good for her!
 
2011-08-19 08:59:35 PM  
I've never seen this picture before either, that or it simply has never registered as anything notable if I did see it before.

I cannot say how she felt when that picture was taken, all I can say is I don't think she looks at all happy in it. Then again I wasn't alive back in those days, so for all I know a young woman having the time of her life in 1951 Italy would have that exact body language and facial expression.
 
2011-08-19 09:10:42 PM  
".. a Canadian newspaper recently described it as "the image that has endured from dorm-room walls to French bistro loos."

Places where people go to get drunk and throw up.

/no wonder I haven't seen this iconic photo.
 
2011-08-19 10:01:03 PM  

Birnone: I've never seen this picture before either, that or it simply has never registered as anything notable if I did see it before.

I cannot say how she felt when that picture was taken, all I can say is I don't think she looks at all happy in it. Then again I wasn't alive back in those days, so for all I know a young woman having the time of her life in 1951 Italy would have that exact body language and facial expression.


really I always just thought it was one of those awkward mid-movement photos where you come off with a weird look on your face even though you weren't doing anything. Like she was mid blinking or caught glare in her eyes.

I always thought it was a symbol of desire for the "exotic" foreign american right after the war, not the poster for a rape defense class.
 
2011-08-19 11:40:10 PM  
Never seen that picture before.
 
2011-08-20 12:27:37 AM  

Spade: cgraves67: I don't get the feminist angle. The woman looks disapproving possibly even scared, definitely not enjoying the attention.

Except we know she wasn't those things.

Because she told us.

The photographer told the guys not to look at the camera so they had to look at something

.
.
The photographer told the guys one guy not to look at the camera. Because the article told us.
 
2011-08-20 12:32:05 AM  
love this photo

i55.tinypic.com
 
2011-08-20 12:38:42 AM  

bessyglass: Theaetetus: Which is like saying that slavery was empowering because it let you know that someone was willing to pay money for you, rather than being considered worthless.

Go read about Oliver Cromwell and the Irish he sent to America as slaves. They had no value and were worked to death without any concern. People who were paid for did have value and were treated as assets.


And it would be horrible for one of those people to say, "see, I was appreciated! People paid for me and treated me as an asset rather than merely working me to death!" I mean, sure, it's better than the alternative, but it's not really a situation to be celebrated, as many are.
 
2011-08-20 05:22:35 AM  

Leskay: Spade: cgraves67: I don't get the feminist angle. The woman looks disapproving possibly even scared, definitely not enjoying the attention.

Except we know she wasn't those things.

Because she told us.

The photographer told the guys not to look at the camera so they had to look at something
.
.
The photographer told the guys one guy not to look at the camera. Because the article told us.



FTFA: "She told the man on motorcycle to tell the other men not to look at the camera"

What "we know...because she told us" is how she wants herself and her famous image to be remembered (unsurprisingly, "as an icon of sexual harassment" isn't it). Whether she is giving a true and accurate recollection of her feelings at that instant many years ago, we do not know and quite possibly she doesn't either.

It's perfectly reasonable to see it either way. You don't have to take everything she says as gospel just because she seems like a cool old lady, and your Junior Detective specialty in body language doesn't mean you know her mind better than she does.
 
2011-08-20 10:56:50 AM  
Wow. That story was 3 minutes of my life I will never get back.
 
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