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(Spiegel)   The fastest growing world view is a) Islamic theocratism b) Christian theocratism or c) secularism   (spiegel.de) divider line 431
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15702 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Aug 2011 at 8:49 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-08-11 09:29:07 PM

Ishkur: Begoggle: Give us a reason why the Holocaust should not have been committed, if not for religion.

There is nothing religious at all about possessing a modicum of compassion, empathy, dignity, tolerance and respect for other human beings.

The holocaust should not have been committed is not a religious argument, it is a human one.


exactly. as we figure out the genome we are finding that a lot of these "morals" are instinctively built into us. if youve ever watched the animal channel youll see that most higher (for lack of a better word) animals possess traits similar to our own. though since we have language and thumbs, we've refined the shiate out of it
 
2011-08-11 09:29:09 PM

Kirkgarand: So what did that great atheist thinker and gourmet Jeffrey Dahmer have to say on the subject of morality?

[img839.imageshack.us image 400x283]


"If a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what's the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?".


The argument that you have employed is described by a general term.
 
2011-08-11 09:29:27 PM

alltandubh: although definitely I'm a "cultural" Christian in the way that an agnostic Jew is still "culturally" Jewish


www.novinite.com
 
2011-08-11 09:30:04 PM

mcoctopus: Magnetic compass will point to north even without the markings. It's science thing you wont understand. Problem with science is it doesnt reveal itself. You have to be smart to grasp it.


I have a user manual that came with my understanding. It was written 2000 years ago.
 
2011-08-11 09:30:06 PM

JohnnyC: 12349876: Don't forget tribal unity, which worked back in the day but is horrible for our current society.

Neighbors barely talk to each other. Sadly... Tribes require cooperation, compassion, and mutual reliance for survival. And while we do rely on each other for our survival, competition is encouraged far more often than cooperation, compassion is portrayed as weakness, and every man is considered an island. ('man' in the sense of 'human', not 'male')


Good points, but the tribalism I was talking about is the kind that rears its ugly head today as racism and bigotry. Leviticus for example, if you convince your people that God hates shellfish, they're less likely to leave the tribe and join shellfish lovers.
 
2011-08-11 09:30:14 PM

MasterAdkins: Maybe in a hundred years or so we can put dangerous and silly superstitions behind us.


And focus all the money, time, and resources currently put into such superstitions into actually furthering society and humankind as a whole.
 
2011-08-11 09:30:23 PM

Kirkgarand: So what did that great atheist thinker and gourmet Jeffrey Dahmer have to say on the subject of morality?

[img839.imageshack.us image 400x283]


"If a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what's the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?".


Curiously, the link of my previous posting was rejected. I will attempt to rely upon an alternative source.
 
2011-08-11 09:31:22 PM
On a slightly naturalistic interpretation, consciences are internalizations of social gazes reflecting approval and disapproval.
 
2011-08-11 09:31:28 PM

JohnnyC: Pretty sure you're not aware of this... but religions made up their "morals" based on the reality around them.


So you have a problem with reality?
 
2011-08-11 09:31:41 PM

WinoRhino: Slamguy: Well, in keeping with your analogy, I was born with an internal compass that tells me whether or not my actions are moral/ethical. It's called a conscience.

Right, conscience. In biology we disected a frog and that was located next to the... wait! They don't have one. People do though. But you can't see it. Consciences are instilled... but from where? Perhaps you're on to something.


Well, where do our other urges (hunger, thirst, lust, excretion) come from? Do you need some supernatural agent to tell you take a leak or does your bladder prompt you?
 
2011-08-11 09:32:21 PM
I used to be an atheist, but my analysis of the current state of affairs leads me to the conclusion that current events can only be rationally explained by the existence of God. An angry, vengeful, Old Testament god with a penis who has cursed us with a Republican party that exalts people like Michele Bachman. This proves that God not only exists but hates America, just like Fred Phelps has been telling us all along. I think I'll kill myself and picket my own funeral.
 
2011-08-11 09:33:16 PM

m2313: Begoggle: So guys, who says what is a "dangerous and silly superstition"?
What is morality?
What is right and wrong?
Give us a reason why the Holocaust should not have been committed, if not for religion. Philosophy? Just as foundation-less as religion.

Religion in general is nothing but dangerous, silly, or some combination of the two. The same can be said for many philosophies such as communism, Nazism.
There is no objective morality, or right and wrong.
Give us a reason the Holocaust should have been committed? Racism and the concept of "race" as being anything other than perception-based is also a silly superstition. Nations are imaginary blocks of land given artificial borders which only have authority because someone is willing to fight for it.

Nihilism is right, but behaving as though nothing matters doesn't make for an easy life/comfortable living for societies. Nor most individuals (though some would thrive on it).
Neither does a theocracy or high rates of religious belief.


You've gotten my point.
In other words, according to you, any time I know I can steal something and get away with it, there is no reason I shouldn't do it?
Most atheists seem to NOT be nihilists, but in fact agree with the basic tenets of most religions (thou shalt not kill, steal, do unto others, don't eat bad pork, etc).
Especially on the internet, all they have to say is that people who literally believe in a god are dumb, and that's why they are atheists, as if that is all that religion is about.
 
2011-08-11 09:33:28 PM
Sociologist Phil Zuckerman, who hopes to start a secular studies major at California's Pitzer College, says that secularists tend to be more ethical than religious people. On average, they are more commonly opposed to the death penalty, war and discrimination. And they also have fewer objections to foreigners, homosexuals, oral sex and hashish.


That guy likes to party!
 
2011-08-11 09:33:57 PM
When I was 19 and too young to know that logic doesn't work.... I got into a debate with a chick at work about religion, I didn't know she was a born-again at the time as I was a new hire.... in retrospect I can see that she was eager and trying to convert me, get me into the game... but I was able to poke a bunch of holes in her arguments, partly because I have read the bible before and was able to bring up points and contradictions from it, eventually she went stone faced and said "Shut up you're evil and should die." I said WOAH!?? WTF!? I need to die? But she was not on speaking terms anymore. Ignore-city from then on. Luckily she quit a few months later, hopefully I contributed to it. Heh heh.

I was a 19 yr old kid, really earnest and eager, never stole anything, never cheated on anyone, A's in school, never rumored or bullied anyone, went out of my way to help people or be kind to people... basically doing unto others.... shadiest thing done by then was stealing liquor out of the parent's cabinet for behind the scenes occasional get-togethers where people just chilled, talked, hung out.... but I needed to die because I didn't believe in a god... damn that's harsh.

Kinda chilling when I think about it now. I'd have handled it differently now.

Also this chick was one of the worst and most judgemental gossipers I've ever met. And was also unwilling to help people who needed it... would not lift a finger to stay a couple hours so someone else could bounce and get to a doctor's appointment, things like that.

But she was saved, so had her license to steal I guess.

Religion != morals. In some cases, it erodes humanity and morals.

/csblehwhatever
 
2011-08-11 09:34:01 PM
WinoRhino
mcoctopus: Magnetic compass will point to north even without the markings. It's science thing you wont understand. Problem with science is it doesnt reveal itself. You have to be smart to grasp it.

I have a user manual that came with my understanding. It was written 2000 years ago.


You're barking.
 
2011-08-11 09:34:51 PM
Dimensio: WinoRhino: ultraholland: WinoRhino: Anyone who agrees with the idea that one can be moral without God, I will give you a compass with no N, S, E, or W on it. Just hash marks and a needle. Tell me if you can find your way out of the woods.

but the compass still works, right?

That's the point. It doesn't. It's just guessing at random direction. How do you know it works, or if it is accurate? You can't without being given specific instruction sets first.

I do not understand the relevance of such a compass to the current discussion.


I take it that he wants to misguide others so they'll die alone and hungry in the woods. Come on, Dimensio, I know the way out. Let's go get a beer.
 
2011-08-11 09:35:45 PM

WinoRhino: Slamguy: Well, in keeping with your analogy, I was born with an internal compass that tells me whether or not my actions are moral/ethical. It's called a conscience.

Right, conscience. In biology we disected a frog and that was located next to the... wait! They don't have one. People do though. But you can't see it. Consciences are instilled... but from where? Perhaps you're on to something.


Ethics emerge through psychological development, and are typically influenced by culture, though some behavioural inhibitions are more likely a consequence of evolutionary development within the context of the emergence of the social structures exhibited by primates.
 
2011-08-11 09:35:49 PM

Slamguy: Well, where do our other urges (hunger, thirst, lust, excretion) come from? Do you need some supernatural agent to tell you take a leak or does your bladder prompt you?


Jeebus holds my unit and points. I just force it out.

John Dewey: 10/10


I Havent Killed Anybody Since 1984: That was a solid 8 out of 10. Nice one!


Thanks. I like to start with an analogy that hints at an acceptable but different view, but utterly fails to stand under further scrutiny. Then people can't resist biting.
 
2011-08-11 09:36:12 PM

spaten: WinoRhino: Anyone who agrees with the idea that one can be moral without God, I will give you a compass with no N, S, E, or W on it. Just hash marks and a needle. Tell me if you can find your way out of the woods.

Watch were the sun rises and sets and time of year. You don't need a compass to get out of the woods if you look at the environment around you.


I forgot add, magnetic declination, is your compass really pointed north?

Magnetic Declination USGS (new window)

Wikipedia Magnetic Declination (new window)
 
2011-08-11 09:36:20 PM

WinoRhino: mcoctopus: Magnetic compass will point to north even without the markings. It's science thing you wont understand. Problem with science is it doesnt reveal itself. You have to be smart to grasp it.

I have a user manual that came with my understanding. It was written 2000 years ago.


Not even close. The "Bible" didn't exist until 600 years after the alleged death of Jesus.

The Bible is a compilation of works, assembled over a period of centuries. It wasn't "official", at least from the Catholic perspective, until 1546, when the Catholic Council of Trent voted (yes, voted) on what books were considered part of the canon.

In other words, the Bible, as you know it, is less than 500 years old.
 
2011-08-11 09:36:22 PM

JohnnyC: schmarmbly: Anyone dumb enough to actually own a compass with no cardinal directions on it needs to have their morality spoon-fed to them.

You know... it's easy enough to fix... You pick up a rock, scratch the compass in one spot *poof* Instant "north".


How do you know which end of the needle is North and which is South?
 
2011-08-11 09:37:10 PM

Jon H: Something about the picture:
A. She is looking left
B. There is a pig just to the right of her right ear.
C. It has darker clouds on top, than on the horizon.
I just don't know.

[www.spiegel.de image 520x250]


Only one person commented on the picture? And it wasn't to say "every day of the week and twice on Sunday"? (Not going to church leaves extra time for habbeldegahgah.)

/love me the geek chicks
//though the best part of atheism is defiling airhead "good girls"
///My moral compass = my peter. Always points south.
 
2011-08-11 09:37:12 PM

WinoRhino: spaten: Watch were the sun rises and sets and time of year. You don't need a compass to get out of the woods if you look at the environment around you.

Interesting. And who gave us the sun? Perhaps the same being that gives us our other sense of direction called morals?


Never a miscommunication. Can't explain that.
 
2011-08-11 09:37:13 PM
My girlfriend says she is a None, but she believes in levitation.

She's The Flying None
 
2011-08-11 09:37:17 PM

alltandubh: In the West, perhaps the greatest problem facing secularists at the moment is that they lack the numbers and -- to be honest -- the backbone to resist encroachments from militant believers, most of whom nowadays happen to be from non- Christian backgrounds (except for a few enclaves in the rural US).


LOL not sure if serious???
The vast majority of people in the USA who claim a religious affiliation are Christian, rural or otherwise.
 
2011-08-11 09:38:02 PM

WinoRhino: I have a user manual that came with my understanding. It was written 2000 years ago.


What are views on slavery?
 
2011-08-11 09:38:03 PM
I'm an apatheist and I like to think I'm a pretty okay person...
 
2011-08-11 09:38:08 PM

WinoRhino: Anyone who agrees with the idea that one can be moral without God, I will give you a compass with no N, S, E, or W on it. Just hash marks and a needle. Tell me if you can find your way out of the woods.


We found our thread moron.

As an atheist, I have a brain. If the needle still tracks magnetic north, all I have to do is sit for a bit and watch the Sun and I'll know which way is north. Even without a compass at all, I can find my way out without issue by utilizing other pieces of knowledge gathered from my environment.

The same goes for morality. A simple analysis of the consequences of our actions can lead us to a morality that is beneficial for everyone.

No god or gods needed. No fear of eternal damnation. No alter-boy farking dudes in dresses. No tithing. No theocracies.

Nothing is needed but logic and rationality to form a universally beneficial morality..

God is dead because god never lived. Only brainwashed imbeciles think otherwise.
 
2011-08-11 09:38:11 PM
"get yhoursael out of the woods using this load stone holder with no markings"
k.

(what it provides is a material constant in which to move off of. i could jsut follow where it points, and eventually the scenery would change.)

to bring that horrible analogy to the moral world, here is a constant-
particular events cause people to suffer. walk in the opposite direction to be "moral."
 
2011-08-11 09:38:22 PM
The other day I ripped some subby about the always 'c' thing, messing with our kids and screwing up the standardized testing and all. Today I hope it is actually 'c' and this time don't actually have a problem with it. Now I'll go read the article and what you all have been saying so far....
 
2011-08-11 09:38:51 PM

the_sidewinder: WinoRhino: I have a user manual that came with my understanding. It was written 2000 years ago.

What are views on slavery?


Rather, what are your views on slavery

/I derped that one good
 
2011-08-11 09:39:29 PM

slob: WinoRhino: Anyone who agrees with the idea that one can be moral without God, I will give you a compass with no N, S, E, or W on it. Just hash marks and a needle. Tell me if you can find your way out of the woods.

I read this as "dumb theist has no idea how a compass works"


The statement that you have quoted does not itself demonstrate a fundamental ignorance of the properties of compasses. WinoRhino instead demonstrated such ignorance in the subsequent posting wherein he claimed that the needle of an unmarked compass would operate by guessing at random. Such a statement merited an image that has yet to be produced, thus I will do so at this time:

www.gnorb.net

Compasses do not operate in such a fashion.
 
2011-08-11 09:39:41 PM
WinoRhino: Then people can't resist biting.

It just looked so tasty.
 
2011-08-11 09:39:45 PM
as an agnostic/atheist, I figure it's important to repeat what others have pointed out above: secularism is embraced not just by the non-religious but by many of the religious as well. Those who want theocracy pretend that believing in a secular government is the same as believing in an atheistic one. That is far from the truth. Secularism has been a strong tradition in this country because it's shared by anyone who wants to avoid theocracy and discrimination against religious minorities. We non-believers need need to keep in mind that secularism and non-belief are definitely not the same thing.
 
2011-08-11 09:39:46 PM

Ringshadow: I'm an apatheist and I like to think I'm a pretty okay person...


I tend to think you are a pretty good person

/Follow you on dA
//Because of the nuke plant thread
 
2011-08-11 09:39:57 PM

Kirkgarand: Argument from authority? Doesn't apply. Dahmer was talking about his own motives and behavior. A common but not universal belief among atheists. Not the belief that people are tasty but the belief that absent consequences it is permissible to do that which you would otherwise NOT do.


Well, that's called psychopathy. It would be interesting to know how you can claim such a phenomenon is common to atheists.
 
2011-08-11 09:40:18 PM
WinoRhino,

Never use an analogy to replace your argument. That leads to strawmen, side tangents, and sub-arguments that have nothing to do with the prime argument. Use it to clarify if you're understood, but never as the main thrust of the argument

EVERYONE ELSE,

Never reply to an analogy, trying to poke it full of holes. Analogies are not arguments, they are red herrings, usually weighted in the argument's favor. This is a common tactic among all theologians, to argue in parables and analogies instead of with facts. Don't let them derail the discussion.
 
2011-08-11 09:40:46 PM

WinoRhino: Interesting. And who gave us the sun? Perhaps the same being that gives us our other sense of direction called morals?


Hahahha... the simple fact that you think someone "gave" us the Sun, speaks volumes.

WinoRhino: So you have a problem with reality?


Not at all. You, on the other hand, I'm not so sure about. Out of curiosity, how long do you think the planet has been here? I'm not expecting an exact age, just a general idea.

12349876: Good points, but the tribalism I was talking about is the kind that rears its ugly head today as racism and bigotry. Leviticus for example, if you convince your people that God hates shellfish, they're less likely to leave the tribe and join shellfish lovers.


It's par for the course... compliance through threat of punishment. Fear based religions rely heavily on that kind of thing. When fear is the focus, it's hard to see anything else.
 
2011-08-11 09:40:56 PM
okay you win this round, html
 
2011-08-11 09:41:13 PM
Imagine how batshiat crazy the religious would be if they eventually comprised only 30% of the Western world's population, as TFA states.

I mean, just look at how loud and in your face they are now. The more cornered and irrelevant they become, the more they will lash out. Believe it.
 
2011-08-11 09:41:31 PM

Ishkur: WinoRhino,

Never use an analogy to replace your argument. That leads to strawmen, side tangents, and sub-arguments that have nothing to do with the prime argument. Use it to clarify if you're understood, but never as the main thrust of the argument

EVERYONE ELSE,

Never reply to an analogy, trying to poke it full of holes. Analogies are not arguments, they are red herrings, usually weighted in the argument's favor. This is a common tactic among all theologians, to argue in parables and analogies instead of with facts. Don't let them derail the discussion.


What about using bold?
 
2011-08-11 09:41:38 PM

WinoRhino: spaten: Watch were the sun rises and sets and time of year. You don't need a compass to get out of the woods if you look at the environment around you.

Interesting. And who gave us the sun? Perhaps the same being that gives us our other sense of direction called morals?


Hume- Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion (new window)

For the LOL's AC/DC:

Who Made Who (new window)
 
2011-08-11 09:41:56 PM
no need to shout, Ishkur
 
2011-08-11 09:41:59 PM
Heh. I like all the people still responding, WAY after he already said "Yeah I was trollin'."
 
2011-08-11 09:42:15 PM

WinoRhino: Thanks. I like to start with an analogy that hints at an acceptable but different view, but utterly fails to stand under further scrutiny. Then people can't resist biting.

It was so juicy, I keep telling myself that I should stay out of these threads, but I can't resist. Also, I noticed a typo in your profile under the types of patients you've worked with

Also that your beer sounds tasty
 
2011-08-11 09:42:31 PM

WinoRhino: Anyone who agrees with the idea that one can be moral without God, I will give you a compass with no N, S, E, or W on it. Just hash marks and a needle. Tell me if you can find your way out of the woods.


Sure. The end of the needle pointing away from the sun's position at noon is N.

I'll wait while you ask God which way is north. Let us know how long before you want us to send out a search party.
 
2011-08-11 09:42:37 PM

Cpl.D: As an atheist, I don't feel strongly for this article one way or the other.


You and me both. I don't care if the other person smears menstrual blood over their faces to venerate the moon goddess, as long as they leave my beliefs alone.
 
2011-08-11 09:43:07 PM

Ishkur: WinoRhino,

Never use an analogy to replace your argument. That leads to strawmen, side tangents, and sub-arguments that have nothing to do with the prime argument. Use it to clarify if you're understood, but never as the main thrust of the argument

EVERYONE ELSE,

Never reply to an analogy, trying to poke it full of holes. Analogies are not arguments, they are red herrings, usually weighted in the argument's favor. This is a common tactic among all theologians, to argue in parables and analogies instead of with facts. Don't let them derail the discussion.


snl.jt.org

You don't have to shout.
 
2011-08-11 09:44:02 PM

WinoRhino: Anyone who agrees with the idea that one can be moral without God, I will give you a compass with no N, S, E, or W on it. Just hash marks and a needle. Tell me if you can find your way out of the woods.


Anyone that thinks the judeo christian religion promotes "moral" or "ethical" behavior should probably go ahead and re-read their various bible translations.
 
2011-08-11 09:44:03 PM
Shouldn't rationalists be pointing out the utter meaninglessness of the phrase "fastest growing"?

/Number of people believing rocks perceive irony has increased from 2 to 370 this month alone.
 
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