WhyteRaven74: I haven't noticed many investment bankers being arrested for selling securities they knew to be something other than what they claimed. Which by the way is fraud.

Just because you won't notice investment bankers being arrested doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Does the name "Bernie Madoff" ring a bell? No? Oh well.

m2313: So most bankers/politicians should be in jail then? But they're not? Can't have anything to do with the upper class can it.These riots are just the lower class taking after the behavior of their rulers.That is to say, stealing, looting, and destroying lower and middle class livelihoods for their own gain.

Just because you believe it should be true doesn't make it true.

The_Homeless_Guy: Not always that meaningful. They had them making trails by hand, when someone with power equipment (tractor/truck/etc.) could have done it in a week (it would take them months). It was a lot of busy work.

My recollection of the time frame was that they didn't exactly have an overabundance of power equipment to the degree we do today. That while power equipment may have been able to do it, it wasn't always available.

And, even busy work has merits if the alternative to having these people working somewhat inefficiently, is to have them rioting in the streets and burning down buildings.

I'll take a little value added over a lot of value destroyed.

The other problem is that you can get just about as much as the CCC paid from welfare. You'd have to pay significantly more for someone to actually do back breaking work in order for it to work in a country like England

During the period I was unemployed after graduating I would have gladly taken a job doing CCC type work. Even if I was no better off financially.

Further you can make it worthwhile in other ways then simply pay. The fact that you're going to be working every day with people around the same age is usually a motivation to itself, on top of that, even doing basic manual labor there are opportunities to offer training.

For example, any endeavor of this scale would require the establishment of an ERP system (SAP/Oracle/etc.) rotate the people through so they get exposure to a logistics network, both in terms of tracking materials, receiving them, transferring them between work sites, monitoring their inventory, processing invoices. None of this is complicated but tons of companies do this, and all of them post job applications right now looking for 3-5 years of experience.

You're offering a pay incentive and that is one thing, but to offer advancement, and to offer what the private sector is currently not offering by giving them the opportunity to be trained in the practical aspects of a career. That gives meaning to the people who are working.

(the third world however, this would work great).

I think we're really missing (missed) an opportunity in Afghanistan to not devote large amounts of our resources to projects like this.

WhyteRaven74: Emposter: .we would have crushed the shiat out of riots like these by this point.

Which may no actually be the best way to handle them. Most riot situations start out as people just being loud, usually something has to set them off to get them to actually riot. It's like the riot at the Democratic convention in Chicago in 68. There was no riot until the cops tried to break up the people protesting. Had the cops left people be, they have just protested and that would've been that.

its already past that point now.

Weaver95: yes, but here's the problem - the 'rule of law' has to apply equally to all levels of society. if the law isn't applied equally, then it's cause for...well, riots in the streets for one thing.

There is no such thing as a perfect society on earth and there never will be. Human nature is prone to temptation and corruption at all levels. Claiming that we aren't under any obligation to follow the laws (or at any rate, those particular laws which are keeping us from looting widescreen TVs and running shoes) until the political establishment is free of blemish is utterly insane. If everyone were to take that attitude, anarchy would quickly take hold, because there will never come a time when influential people don't abuse their positions of power at least occasionally.

The real question is not, "is my country flawed?" but "is my country flawed compared to the rest of the countries in the world?" The UK has been extraordinarily generous to its residents for decades (far too much so in some cases, but that's another thread) -- there is simply no justification for anyone in Britain to victimize and terrorize their neighbours just because their MP was caught fiddling his expenses or a banker received a bonus or whatever the hell else. This is nothing but a self- serving rationalization for the worst excesses of criminal behaviour.

letrole: Bonzo_1116, you posted lyrics. Don't post lyrics. That's something that fat girls do.

And you should definitely take letrole's advice regarding what fat girls will and will not do.

Bonzo_1116: However, I do believe it should be required listening while watching a muted broadcast of the English riots.

It would seem that anyone who thinks a song that glorifies rioters is appropriate would also think that "Every Breath You Take" by Sting is about devotion and love.

Tatterdemalian: the investigation into police bribery is an example of the justice system actually doing its job,

The problem is that there's something to investigate in the first place. That so many of the police seemingly felt it was better to take a bribe to give some leads to papers instead of oh I don't know, arresting the people offering the bribes. It's not like it was just one or two cops doing this once or twice. And then there's the matter of newspaper trying to bribe the police and thinking they should be able to get away with it. And there are other issues as well.

Tatterdemalian: Just because you won't notice investment bankers being arrested doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Does the name "Bernie Madoff" ring a bell? No? Oh well.

I haven't seen anything in the papers, and if it happened, it would definitely make the New York Times, which I happen to read every day.

"We the people" FART in your governments general direction.


/Live free or die trying to live free.
//Our choice is clear, we need to keep Drew filled with beer.

Weaver95: luckyeddie: It's farking greedy chavs who have decided that free trainers and free bottles of White Lightning are a great way to spend a Tuesday evening..

And since those kiddies have nothing invested in their culture and society can you really blame them? sure, riots are bad for property values...but those kids know they're not going to get decent jobs or have a chance at an education. the cops can't stop them from staging a riot either, and they gain NOTHING by being good little boys and girls. So why not smash a few store windows and take what you can grab?

the British are going to have a real problem after the riots... they used to own an island to dump them on.

alltandubh: This is nothing but a self- serving rationalization for the worst excesses of criminal behaviour.

Funny how the police department looking pretty damn corrupt, plus many newspapers being corrupt doesn't seem to bother you. Everything must of course be the fault of the poor.

rebelyell2006: User42: I agree completely, this sort of riot wouldn't happen in a place where people could defend themselves. The hoodlums really do have the power over there now, no one has a gun so its just force by numbers. Whats scary is how long will it continue, and when will the groups realize they can go from just busting shops and general mayhem just kicking in any random door and taking what they want. If the police can't respond and you don't own a gun, as a homeowner what are you going to do if 10 teens want to take everything you have?

Personally I think it would be dangerous to shoot at rioters if they come on your property. While the mob mentality could cause them to bolt and run, it could also cause them to charge at once and beat you to death. The best thing to do would be to block every entrance to your house and hope they don't have battering rams or fire.

It's like the zombie fantasy, what would you do after shooting a few and then run out of ammunition? Or get mobbed before you can reload? Because the mob mentality causes people to do stupid shiat like pull people out of cars and kill them.

I wouldn't advocate shooting into a crowd, I was referring to people being able to defend themselves on a personal basis. This isn't just riots, it's general lawlessness.

Let me explain with a picture.

Victim Link (new window)


Not a victim Link (new window)

tinyarena: Emposter: As an American, more than anything, I'm continually shocked at the degree to which the UK has crippled its own police, to the point where they can't do anything but stand and watch as kids burn people's belongings and livelihoods to the ground. They're so afraid of being yelled at again for overreacting that they've become completely useless. I'm no fan of the US's increasingly militaristic and oversized police force, but I'll say one thing...we would have crushed the shiat out of riots like these by this point.

[slapblog.com image 600x359]

You may have a point there. I can't recall seeing our Police barricade THEMSELVES.

... is that for real?

Here's something that might be a problem, remember the guy who was shot on the tube cause he was thought to be a terrorist which he actually wasn't? When the death went to a jury at inquest, the jury was told it could return either an open verdict or a verdict that the killing had been lawful. They were explicitly told those were their only two options, they were not permitted to decide a verdict of unlawful killing. Yep that's right, the jury was told that at worst they could declare the death suspicious and that they could not say the death was the result of what happened and that what happened was wrong.

Gee I wonder why that might have upset people and may still upset them.

Overfiend: Weaver95: Overfiend: some stuff

dude... I saw a movie about you once... you were a legend...

The police should shoot every one of those morons in the head, the world would be much better off. I'm all for protesting but I'm not buying the "protesting the tough economic times" bullshiat or whatever the explanation is supposed to be. Watch some of the videos, there's many online. They're robbing people and destroying everything in sight because they're douchebags. Send them all on a boat and sink it in the middle of the ocean.

justoneznot: Send them all on a boat and sink it in the middle of the ocean.

you bored first

WhyteRaven74: you bored first

er board

Weaver95: skylabdown: I'm going to go riot at Weaver's house because I'm sad and no one understands me. Also, I need some new shiat for my crib.

oh cool! should be an interesting test of the minefield.

which mines did you go with? the wooden or plastic ones that are undetectable, or just standard antipersonnel mines?

There's no romantic ideal involved. Let's recognize these people for what they are: They're the same thugs and hoodlums that have always plagued the good people.

GranoblasticMan: There's no romantic ideal involved. Let's recognize these people for what they are: They're the same thugs and hoodlums that have always plagued the good people.

Over simplified diagnosis with no interest in what caused the problem in the first place.... FTW.

GranoblasticMan: hey're the same thugs and hoodlums that have always plagued the good people.

But enough about the newspapers and police....

Slaxl: Why is this so complicated? Do you people just want to put your own spin on reasons for the problems just so you can justify your own views about what certain politicians are doing to your country? Just stop it. This is really farking simple. A twat got shot (be under no illusions, just because it transpires that the early reports that he shot first turned out to be false, and was only carrying an unfired modified weapon doesn't make him an innocent saint), people protested, protest spilled into violence which turned into a riot. People across the city saw the lack of police response and a large movement of people joined in, the police were stretched so there wasn't a chance of stemming the tide, 20 police faced 300 thugs in one instance, so it builds until you get what we had here last night, but tonight, with all police recalled, people knew there was going to be a greater police presence and so stayed away, because the risk/reward suddenly dropped away like a cliff.

People with genuine concerns and messages march into police cordons and kettling traps knowing they're going to be beaten, risk death, and arrest because they believe their cause is worth it. Also you don't see them walking down the road with a 42" tv and a grin the size of Texas on their faces, or mugging their injured co-protestors. Stop farking sticking up for these deplorable human beings. I'm farking sick of it.



/Yes I know how old your account is - Thats the joke

The left thinks that rioters are some sort of oppressed underclass that can be the muscle to effect revolution and change.

The soviets felt the same way, and made damn sure the underclass stayed put after the purpose had been served.

WhyteRaven74: justoneznot: Send them all on a boat and sink it in the middle of the ocean.

you bored first

You may need to reread my post, I was saying that we should do that to the "protesters", not posters on Fark. And how does one bored a ship, do you force everyone to watch reruns of Golden Girls?

rebelyell2006: User42: I agree completely, this sort of riot wouldn't happen in a place where people could defend themselves. The hoodlums really do have the power over there now, no one has a gun so its just force by numbers. Whats scary is how long will it continue, and when will the groups realize they can go from just busting shops and general mayhem just kicking in any random door and taking what they want. If the police can't respond and you don't own a gun, as a homeowner what are you going to do if 10 teens want to take everything you have?

Personally I think it would be dangerous to shoot at rioters if they come on your property. While the mob mentality could cause them to bolt and run, it could also cause them to charge at once and beat you to death even more quickly. The best thing to do would be to block every entrance to your house and hope they don't have battering rams or fire.

It's like the zombie fantasy, what would you do after shooting a few and then run out of ammunition? Or get mobbed before you can reload? Because the mob mentality causes people to do stupid shiat like pull people out of cars and kill them.

/FTFY

justoneznot: You may need to reread my post,

Oh no, I read it entirely correctly.

Mike_LowELL: Oh. This is now a gun thread.

For the love of Christ.

I wasn't trying to derail the thread, just expressing my concern about the current state of their country. If the police can't enforce the laws, and the people can't defend themselves, what do you have? Currently, you have England.

Well, at least there are no racial facets to this story!!!! Whew!!!!

WhyteRaven74: Gee I wonder why that might have upset people and may still upset them.

How about his mother who was flown in from Rio de Janeiro and put on such a maudlin and indignant and contrived condemnation of the British police? The amusing thing, if anything can be amusing, is that the police in Rio de Janeiro have around 1000 summary executions per year, and ITS FARKING PROCEDURE.

Not accidents. Not dereliction. Procedure.

WhyteRaven74: justoneznot: You may need to reread my post,

Oh no, I read it entirely correctly.

Ok so I thought maybe you just read it a bit too quickly (hey, it happens to all of us) but evidently you have more than just a reading comprehension problem. Can't help ya there bud.

fusillade762: There's also a generalized anger about economic issues. That's probably adding fuel to the fire, so to speak.

There's that too.

tinyarena: Marine1: ... is that for real?

I have no idea
I just did a GIS for 'London Riots 2011'

That is awful! These riots are terrible.

WhyteRaven74: GranoblasticMan: hey're the same thugs and hoodlums that have always plagued the good people.

But enough about the newspapers and police....

Dude, we get it, newspapers and the police suck a big cock but how is burning down family businesses and looting doing anything about that? It isn't. Take beef up with the cops and stop buying the newspapers that did wrong.

ole prophet: Take beef up with the cops and stop buying the newspapers that did wrong.

Thing is, you can't so neatly divide the issues and say that a system that creates one situation also hasn't created the other one.

tinyarena
>>> Emposter: As an American, more than anything, I'm continually shocked at the degree
>>> to which the UK has crippled its own police, ...

You may have a point there. I can't recall seeing our Police barricade THEMSELVES.

because our cowards are better at running away (See LA CA riots) and shooting unarmed /nonviolent blacks in the back (see Danziger Bridge)

d3bug: Overfiend: Weaver95: Overfiend: some stuff

dude... I saw a movie about you once... you were a legend...

Yeah, the demon hero gigs just aren't there anymore. So I come to Fark to get my kicks.

Urotsukidoji

Overfiend: d3bug: Overfiend: Weaver95: Overfiend: some stuff

dude... I saw a movie about you once... you were a legend...

Yeah, the demon hero gigs just aren't there anymore. So I come to Fark to get my kicks.

Urotsukidoji

yeah, the economy is hard on everyone... even tentically demons...

/yes, hard was an intentional pun :P

I watched this live on BBC today.

ONE SINGLE MP suggested HE would like to see a ban from 6pm to 6am.

That's all.... what a retarded headline, thanks for sensationalizing it.

Mike_LowELL: User42: I wasn't trying to derail the thread, just expressing my concern about the current state of their country. If the police can't enforce the laws, and the people can't defend themselves, what do you have? Currently, you have England.

On that front, yes, the state has failed them. People thought the British "Let police take care of it!" Initiative was nutty long before this actually happened. o.o

nah, they should let these guys take care of it...

Hard to believe they once nearly ruled the globe.

Weaver95: And since those kiddies have nothing invested in their culture and society can you really blame them?

just one thing of note - I keep seeing that line that society has not invested anything in them - a lot of those immigrant groups go in there and do not try to assimilate into the life of their chosen land. instead they continue to live exactly as they did before.

I move around a fair bit, so you can consider me an immigrant whereever I go - each time a country lets me stay to live and work, I consider that investment enough to kick off with. I can bring my own flavour to life there/here - but it's a nice thing to blend it with what's existing. From what I can see, a lot of these people move some place, and has sudden entitlement issues to suck a teat. I could be wrong in this view, but that's just my observation of the majority of these immigrants.

That said - the Brit govt could have approached this instance a bit better

Hey guys, what's going on in this thread?

Send in the bear hatted men with BFGs.

/That's Canadian fur, mind you.

d3bug: Mike_LowELL: User42: I wasn't trying to derail the thread, just expressing my concern about the current state of their country. If the police can't enforce the laws, and the people can't defend themselves, what do you have? Currently, you have England.

On that front, yes, the state has failed them. People thought the British "Let police take care of it!" Initiative was nutty long before this actually happened. o.o

nah, they should let these guys take care of it...
[www.essentially-england.com image 423x283]

God damnit.