DozeNutz: Its as if the government is creating a black market with the ban. Unintended consequences I guess...

The government is not creating a black market. People opposed to the government are creating a black market. or, are you suggesting that people who oppose the government are helpless and are actually under the direction of the government?

/until the lights go out

They are trying to spur the economy by spending more on electricity. You libs know nothing.

TofuTheAlmighty: chimp_ninja: There's no ban on 'incandescents'.

There's no ban on 'incandescents'.

There's no ban on 'incandescents'.

Emphasis supplied. Regardless, right-wing lies are impossible to rebut because right-wingers don't care about facts.

Typical liberal subterfuge. So we can still get incandescents? They're going to continue to be made? No, there's no BAN. But there is a REQUIREMENT that bulbs be more energy efficient.

Incandescents can't meet the requirement. Factories making them have to, well, stop making them. Ta-da.

Who wants to trade 100W bulbs for some of my DDT stash?

I imagine that these people will be just as successful at the nostradomi who stocked up on ammunition pernding theinevitable Obama ban thereof.

How many of these CFL threads do we have a week? At least one or two?

How dim do you have to be to still not gather that there is no "ban on incandescent light bulbs." You are literally "stocking up" on something that everyone will be able to continue buying in the stores.

Did people stock up on lead paint once the government regulated that? Did people shout "OMG The government is banning PAINT!" When did we get *so stupid* as a nation? Holy Fark.

Something I'm curious about:

I keep reptiles which require a certain amount of heat. I accomplish this, currently, with a regular ol' 100 watt bulb. A 4-pack of cheapo walmart brand bulbs provides heat and light for the cage. CFL/other energy efficient bulbs are good about the light, but don't provide any heat. Are reptile keepers just gonna be SOL after the first of the year?

Fester is vexed. The CFLs don't light up right, and they hurt his tongue.

MrSteve007: Cree just demoed a new, uber LED bulb a couple days ago. IMHO, it's sexyness on a plug:

1,300 lumens, 8.7 watts (150 lumens per watt.) CRI = over 90.
[i.i.com.com image 270x406]
Link (new window)

It's just a prototype right now, but it's a working prototype. They just need to streamline the production to make it happen.

Oh hell yes. I'd buy that in a heartbeat.

impaler: 250 Watt equivalent CFL bulb in my living that gives off a warm glow and turns on instantly.

Dimmable? Link?

SpectroBoy: Right now I have ceiling "can lights". I need something in the 1200 lumens + range given the can spacing. I have the slowness of CFL and I want to keep my dimmer.

Right there with you. I have can lights in two rooms, tried replacing the big-watt floods with CFLs and the results were horrible. Either too dim (why can't I get a 150+W equivalent bulb? Must be a size issue?) or horrible, horrible effects in the light (shadows created by CFL-ed flood bulbs are _not_ the same as incandescent).

Holding out hope LEDs are the solution, but the price has to come down. I already have boxes of Lighting Fail from trying once already, I can't afford to drop ($30+ x many) to be disappointed again.

Really would like to replace those bulbs, though. I am open to suggestions.

But, I do think there's a big risk of false environmentalism, too -- every time someone has given me shiat for my incandescent bulbs, I ask them where their thermostat is set. If you're running at 65-70 (or more!) in the winter or 70-74 (or less!) in the summer in your unnecessarily large McMansion, I don't care how many efficient bulbs you bought to make yourself feel better.

The Homer Tax: I imagine that these people will be just as successful at the nostradomi who stocked up on ammunition pernding theinevitable Obama ban thereof.

How many of these CFL threads do we have a week? At least one or two?

How dim do you have to be to still not gather that there is no "ban on incandescent light bulbs." You are literally "stocking up" on something that everyone will be able to continue buying in the stores.

Did people stock up on lead paint once the government regulated that? Did people shout "OMG The government is banning PAINT!" When did we get *so stupid* as a nation? Holy Fark.

I'm thinking around the time they banned lead paint. We did elect Reagan shortly thereafter...

Part of my job is to spec bulbs for commercial projects, including renovations. Here's an example of a recent project:

Art gallery on Maui:
-Electricity is $0.36 kWh
-They use 160, 75 watt halogen lamps (par 30)
-They operate 18 hours a day
-The gallery is air conditioned.

Total *daily* cost lighting = $77.76
Annual lighting operation cost = $28,382
Lamps require replacement every 6 months.

Replace the halogen lamps with 94 CRI, LED lamps. Link (new window)

Cost per lamp is $80.

Total cost of replacement: $12,800

Daily LED cost: $12.44
Annual LED operational cost: $4,541
Lamps require replacement every 7 1/2 years.

Also, factor in that the total air conditioning load will be reduced by half (currently $80 a day in A/C), and you can see that switching to LEDs, especially in areas that require air conditioning, it a no brainer. In this high cost location, it pays for itself in less than one year.

Annual lighting energy savings = -$23,841
Annual A/C energy savings = -$14,600

Total Annual energy savings = -$38,441

WhiteFalconIV: Something I'm curious about:

I keep reptiles which require a certain amount of heat. I accomplish this, currently, with a regular ol' 100 watt bulb. A 4-pack of cheapo walmart brand bulbs provides heat and light for the cage. CFL/other energy efficient bulbs are good about the light, but don't provide any heat. Are reptile keepers just gonna be SOL after the first of the year?

No. From all I have heard animal cage bulbs are exempt. You won't necessarily be able to get the el-cheapo ones, but you'll still be able to get heat to your animals.

Buffco: So we can still get incandescents?

Yes.

They're going to continue to be made?

Yes.

No, there's no BAN. But there is a REQUIREMENT that bulbs be more energy efficient.

Yes.

Incandescents can't meet the requirement.

No.

Factories making them have to, well, stop making them. Ta-da.

No.

There are multitudes of incandescent bulbs that meet the new requirements available in stores right now. I don't know how many bulbs it takes to light the inside of one's own colon, but you'll never ever have to do so with a CFL bulb if you choose not to.

t rotsky: This is why people all over the world laugh at us: morons who take anything that the regressive outrage machine puts out and run with it.

I love America but there are days when I want to sew a Canadian flag on my backpack.

/sorry, pet peeve

Buffco: Incandescents can't meet the requirement. Factories making them have to, well, stop making them. Ta-da.

New incandescent bulb that meets new energy-efficiency standards. (new window)

Ta-da.

Have you called Goldline yet, Buffco?

This post is a wharrgarbl-free zone. Just the facts.



This is the law in question. It's a hell of a long law, and covers a lot more than just light bulbs. It was furthermore passed in 2007, so if you want to blame B. Hussein Osama, blame him for voting for it in the Senate.

Search for "GENERAL SERVICE INCANDESCENT LAMPS". It's down in section 321. That'll tell you what's going to happen soon. It's written in terms of brightness, not wattage -- it's kind of senseless to say "100 watt bulbs must not use more than 72 watts."

What's going to happen starting next year is that bulbs between 1490 and 2600 lumens (currently 100 to 150 watts) will be limited to 72 watts. Bulbs are available already that can meet this standard. They're halogen bulbs -- not CFLs, not LEDs, halogen bulbs. That's the same kind that nearly every motor vehicle on the road uses as its headlamps.

Come 2013 and 2014, similar standards kick in for bulbs down to 310 lumens (currently 40 watts).

2020 is when general-service incandescents get banned de facto. The actual rule is "45 lumens per watt." CFLs and LEDs can meet this mark; incandescents (including halogens) can't.

Freedom-hating libs banning bulbs hasn't affected me. I already use a combination of 30 CFL and LED lights in my house.

The WalMart generic CFLs have been reliable, and the only warm up issues are with the ones needed outside during the winter, and even then they take only a minute to brighten.

If I was sure it would work, I'd convert the brake and signaling lights on my older Jeep to LED so I never have to replace the farking things. Too many dumbass American car manufactures are still using incandescent vehicle lights.

meat0918: WhiteFalconIV: Something I'm curious about:

I keep reptiles which require a certain amount of heat. I accomplish this, currently, with a regular ol' 100 watt bulb. A 4-pack of cheapo walmart brand bulbs provides heat and light for the cage. CFL/other energy efficient bulbs are good about the light, but don't provide any heat. Are reptile keepers just gonna be SOL after the first of the year?

No. From all I have heard animal cage bulbs are exempt. You won't necessarily be able to get the el-cheapo ones, but you'll still be able to get heat to your animals.

So, from a purely cost-effectiveness standpoint (assuming that I have adequate space to do so, which I do), I'd do well to stock up? Those specialty heat lamps are about $6-7 each.

1. While Halogens are touted as the replacement for incandescent, they run 1.5x hotter than regular light bulbs, which rules them out for many fixtures. These bulbs run so hot they use them to keep "astronaut chickens" (the chickens in the plastic bubbles) in the grocery stores here warm.

2. Over and over it gets pounded into our heads that we must recycle these. My reaction is--So what? What if I don't? 90% of Americans will have this attitude. I'm so tired of the damn Greenies not addressing this issue and the total hypocrisy surrounding it.

3. I've seen so many numbers being thrown around that truly smell of rectal extraction. How is it that when residential lighting makes up about 6% of the total draw on the grid, that this switchover is truly going to make a difference?


4. The real reason behind the switch is profit. Pure. Corporate. Greed. However, there's some talk, albeit quietly, about a possible worldwide tungsten shortage, which in reality, makes quite a bit of sense.

Chimp Ninja

-This is most definitely a ban. If the bulb can't reach a certain standard, it cannot be sold. Again, it CANT BE SOLD. This effectively removes the most common incandescent bulbs from the market.

meat0918: TDBoedy: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: But what good is a thriving planet, the North Andover mother asks, if her kids are forced to live in a home lighted by bulbs that are energy efficient but ruin the look of the dining room chandelier

Lady, your kids need to go the fark outside.

one of the problems industry wide is the issue of form factor. Incandescent light bulbs are generally the A19 style and CFL's get HUGE in comparison as wattages get past oh...40 watts or so. Many fixtures (especially ceiling ones) will not fit anything but a short necked incandescent.

fixture designers need to keep up with present and emerging lighting technologies.

/sells and has sold commercial LED fixtures and many many CFL's...HID and induction lighting systems...and ofc high efficiency t8 and t5 linear fluorescents.

//libertarian who knows how fiscally responsible it is to have efficient lighting.
///you can save more by having your pupmps motors and drives modernized though and your water heating systems...and environmental controls...etc.

I'm replacing the crappy old dial thermostats with programmable digital ones this fall.

Now if I could just afford to ditch the ceiling heat altogether, I'd be a happy camper.

Yeah my problem with homes is that nearly any investment you make in them has a much longer pay back period than say a business due to the operating hours of the business being a greater portion of any given day. The avg homeowner uses their lights for roughly 4hrs a day seasonally adjusted of course. The average business is eight hours. So for you home owners out there...the technologies will save you money...but they save you MORE faster if you used more to begin with. That is sorta how it works.

And to top it off if enough people use less energy they HAVE to raise electrical rates to maintain either the proper staffing and maint levels (for munis) and for privately owned they are guaranteed a certain profit level by the state enforce monopolies.

Yeah it works that way at least on the distribution side...generation is a bit more competitive as they go out to bid each day to sell their power.

The ban is indeed idiocy. The ban is against the manufacture of these bulbs, not the sale or possession of them. Guess what? The last factory producing incandescent bulbs in the U.S. closed earlier this year. All of them are made overseas now. What is more, their is new incandescent bulb technology that makes them as energy efficient and long lasting as a CFL at about the same cost as a bulb today. These will be available in Europe soon.

So why the band? Is it really about energy use reduction? Not a bit of it. It takes more energy to manufacture a CFL than it saves in use. It's about money. How can a government that allows a six-mile-per-gallon sport utility tank to be manufactured and sold possibly think it comes off as concerned about lowing energy usage by banning a few light bulbs? It's ludicrous. It's America.

SpectroBoy: Right now I have ceiling "can lights". I need something in the 1200 lumens + range given the can spacing. I have the slowness of CFL and I want to keep my dimmer.

If this light comes out at an OK price I am going all LED.

I've had really good luck with their LR6-DR1000 (new window), for 6' inch can replacements. However, don't use them in home theatre locations, as they only dim to 20%, then cut out. They're on the higher end of the price scale @ ~$120 a fixture.

The CR6 (new window) is much less bright (only 650 lumen), but works awesome in low level dimming situations (I use it in my living room), and is quite a bit cheaper. If you look around, they can be found for ~$45 at Home Depot.

Buffco: Random Anonymous Blackmail: Alphax
I guess they like bulbs that help heat the house in winter, but make it harder to cool in the summer.

Or there are others who haven't had good luck with reliable CFL bulbs and would rather pay $1.18 for 4 instead of $12 for something that lasts just as long.

I think once again the government wants to push technology for efficiency but cost will ultimately drive demand.

THIS.

Your wires suck.

Seriously - you probably have a short or some bad voltage fluctuations. I've had a CFL bulb for 8 years and 3 moves - it lives in a desk lamp that gets switched off/on many times a day.

I'm a big fan of LED lights but will say that the cheap-ass pack of LED vanity lights I bought at Sam's Club burned out after only about a year.

That'll piss you off... I'm assuming the bulbs have a cheap transformer or that the LED's were wired in series instead of parallel and when one burned out, well...

Long story short: Don't go cheap on your LED lights and save your friggin' receipt.

WhiteFalconIV: Something I'm curious about:

I keep reptiles which require a certain amount of heat. I accomplish this, currently, with a regular ol' 100 watt bulb. A 4-pack of cheapo walmart brand bulbs provides heat and light for the cage. CFL/other energy efficient bulbs are good about the light, but don't provide any heat. Are reptile keepers just gonna be SOL after the first of the year?

EXACTLY, I mean how did reptiles ever survive without light bulbs in the first place? I mean, Noah must have had light bulbs, right?

mark12A: Break a CFL it's a toxic mess. Break an incandescent? Notsomuch..

Unattended CFLs have been documented catching on fire. Incandescents? Notsomuch.

/got my stock

This. Any of you who actually buy CFLs need to go research what to do if one breaks on your floor. Heaven forbid it should break on your mattress - you'll have to throw it away. That's how poisonous this shiat is. Remember, kids, mercury is a neurotoxin!

CFL disposal: Link (new window)

Buffco:
Typical liberal subterfuge. So we can still get incandescents? They're going to continue to be made? No, there's no BAN. But there is a REQUIREMENT that bulbs be more energy efficient.

Incandescents can't meet the requirement. Factories making them have to, well, stop making them. Ta-da.

guess u rednecks still don't know how to read the newspapers huh?

chimp_ninja: I wonder if this dipshiat knows that you can buy CFLs with a variety of spectral outputs, including (my preference) the ones that mimic daylight. On two occasions, a guest at our house commented on the daylight-colored lighting. I turn on the track lighting next to the skylight, and you get a nice side-by-side of natural sunlight vs. the daylight CFLs. They're indistinguishable.

I use CFLs, but this simply is not true. It is getting better but they aren't there yet.

Lumen? What does she have to do with anything?

walkerhound: WhiteFalconIV: Something I'm curious about:

I keep reptiles which require a certain amount of heat. I accomplish this, currently, with a regular ol' 100 watt bulb. A 4-pack of cheapo walmart brand bulbs provides heat and light for the cage. CFL/other energy efficient bulbs are good about the light, but don't provide any heat. Are reptile keepers just gonna be SOL after the first of the year?

EXACTLY, I mean how did reptiles ever survive without light bulbs in the first place? I mean, Noah must have had light bulbs, right?

If you want to keep your house around 90-100 degrees, by all means, your reptile would do well without a heat lamp in his cage, depending on the species. Me, I'd rather keep my house at a human comfort level, and have a relatively small box providing the needed heat for my desert-native pets to thrive.

Lee Jackson Beauregard: not CFLs, not LEDs, halogen bulbs

Halogens put out a horrific amount of heat though. You are not allowed to put them into many fixtures due to the heat.

farm machine: If you plan on hoarding it should be for florescent bulbs not the incandescent ones. The newer bulbs will require you to change out your ballasts. This is not something to be concerned with for incandescent bulbs.

/mercury for everyone!!!
// Yeah!!!!!!

If you have old T-12's in your building, it's far past time to upgrade anyway. Lighting retrofit these days to a nice T-5 will usually see less than a 3 year payback. Unless we're upset that the gubmint is making us be a tad foresighted...

Buffco: Incandescents can't meet the requirement. Factories making them have to, well, stop making them. Ta-da

And how is the impact of this any different than an outright ban? Oh, that's right - pedantic semantics.

Sad part is the government action will push people to waste money on technologies that are still developing. So, they'll pay more and get less than they would if they were able to wait until the technologies were more mature. The right answer (considering today's available tech) is to get to LED light ASAP, but it'll take a while for the functionality to improve and price to decline. My strategy is to skip over the rollout of relatively expensive, crappy tech CFLs and in two years go straight to LEDs. Better for energy consumption, better for the environment, better for my wallet.

ph0rk: Buffco: Random Anonymous Blackmail: Alphax
I guess they like bulbs that help heat the house in winter, but make it harder to cool in the summer.

Or there are others who haven't had good luck with reliable CFL bulbs and would rather pay $1.18 for 4 instead of $12 for something that lasts just as long.

I think once again the government wants to push technology for efficiency but cost will ultimately drive demand.

THIS.

Your wires suck.

Seriously - you probably have a short or some bad voltage fluctuations. I've had a CFL bulb for 8 years and 3 moves - it lives in a desk lamp that gets switched off/on many times a day.

Perfect example of the stupidity of this. Voltage fluctuations kill these bulbs faster, and people who do live at the end of heavily used power lines, can experience wild voltage swings. The CFL's ARE more expensive for these people, and make no sense because they can't really use them.

JackieRabbit: What is more, their is new incandescent bulb technology that makes them as energy efficient and long lasting as a CFL at about the same cost as a bulb today. These will be available in Europe soon.

They're actually available here, now.

There is no ban on incandescent light bulbs. If an incandescent light bulb is energy efficient, it can be sold. Many are already. There is no ban on incandescent light bulbs

WhiteFalconIV: If you want to keep your house around 90-100 degrees, by all means, your reptile would do well without a heat lamp in his cage, depending on the species. Me, I'd rather keep my house at a human comfort level, and have a relatively small box providing the needed heat for my desert-native pets to thrive.

So how did both the polar bears and reptiles survive on the ark?

/I sense your sarcasm and do not find it funny.

PsiChi: This. Any of you who actually buy CFLs need to go research what to do if one breaks on your floor. Heaven forbid it should break on your mattress - you'll have to throw it away. That's how poisonous this shiat is. Remember, kids, mercury is a neurotoxin!

Fun stats on mercury in our lives:

The amount of mercury in a CFL is 4-5 millgrams - which is roughly the same amount that's in a couple servings of tuna.

The average mercury thermometer has 500 milligrams.

The average, older thermostat has 5,000 milligrams of mercury.

Artcurus: The CFL's ARE more expensive for these people, and make no sense because they can't really use them.

If CFLs are more expensive for them, then those people would be unwise to use CFLs.

Artcurus: Perfect example of the stupidity of this. Voltage fluctuations kill these bulbs faster, and people who do live at the end of heavily used power lines, can experience wild voltage swings. The CFL's ARE more expensive for these people, and make no sense because they can't really use them.

Get your power fixed. You'll also frag less consumer electric devices, as they tend to put shiatty voltage regulators in those, too.

I bet you could argue that you still "need" leaded gasoline for some relic automobile, but the Government's answer is the same: too bad, get with the times.

(Also stop polluting, you big jerk!)

Mentat: I'M NOT GONNA LET THE GUBMENT TAKE MAH LIGHTBULBS

YOU CAN HAVE MY LIGHTBULBS WHEN YOU PRY THEM FROM MY COLD DARK FINGERS!!!

meat0918: WhiteFalconIV: Something I'm curious about:

I keep reptiles which require a certain amount of heat. I accomplish this, currently, with a regular ol' 100 watt bulb. A 4-pack of cheapo walmart brand bulbs provides heat and light for the cage. CFL/other energy efficient bulbs are good about the light, but don't provide any heat. Are reptile keepers just gonna be SOL after the first of the year?

No. From all I have heard animal cage bulbs are exempt. You won't necessarily be able to get the el-cheapo ones, but you'll still be able to get heat to your animals.

That's interesting, I was wondering if that type of bulb would be under the same category as appliance bulbs. I've only used a variety of florescents and CFLs (need to produce UVB) for almost a decade now though. I used to hate the old incandescent mercury vapor bulbs, they were expensive and had horrible failure rates.

Seems like a great alternative when there is a two page manual on what to do if a CFL breaks.
http://www.energystar.gov/ia/products/lighting/cfls/downloads/CFL_Cleanup_and_D i sposal.pdf

"Open a window and leave the room for 15 minutes or more"
Really? This is a better option?

The Homer Tax: Artcurus: The CFL's ARE more expensive for these people, and make no sense because they can't really use them.

If CFLs are more expensive for them, then those people would be unwise to use CFLs.

And after the ban? Again, considering that Halogens aren't quite the be all end all.

MrSteve007: Fun stats on mercury in our lives:

The amount of mercury in a CFL is 4-5 millgrams - which is roughly the same amount that's in a couple servings of tuna.

The average mercury thermometer has 500 milligrams.

The average, older thermostat has 5,000 milligrams of mercury.

All the people concerned about the amount of mercury in a CFL should walk into their children school and look up. Try not to have a heart attack resulting from what you see.

Same goes for any hospital, public building, or office. If you're at work right now and care about the amount of Mercury in CFLs, look up. AAAAH! Hanging Death Traps of Poisonous Doom!

The Homer Tax: I imagine that these people will be just as successful at the nostradomi who stocked up on ammunition pernding theinevitable Obama ban thereof.

How many of these CFL threads do we have a week? At least one or two?

How dim do you have to be to still not gather that there is no "ban on incandescent light bulbs." You are literally "stocking up" on something that everyone will be able to continue buying in the stores.

Did people stock up on lead paint once the government regulated that? Did people shout "OMG The government is banning PAINT!" When did we get *so stupid* as a nation? Holy Fark.

My running theory is that the median age is approaching the average age at which dementia begins to manifest.

That, and a critical lack of education funding over the past fifty years.