simplicimus: Semantically, I am dealing with the loss of the word "civilian" in any context.

Sorry, forgot to finish the post. Meant to end by saying that "the loss of the word 'civilian' in any context." isn't really a recent development. That's what I was getting at with all of that.

Well, nobody claimed Brevik is a *good* Christian. Most of the religious stuff he used, like the references to the Knights Templar, was mostly just latching on to imagery that fit his notions.

But he was a terrorist, and a Christian. And if seeing those two words used together bothers you, tough. It should bother you.

simplicimus: Lsherm: thatboyoverthere: However there was no farking excuse to bomb Dresden. No excuse. No military targets, no factory's,

That's not entirely true. There were factories in the suburbs, they just weren't bombed because the targeting was in the city center. The city itself was the intersection for three important German rail lines, and those did count as a military target. Historical arguments about Dresden aren't that there weren't any military targets at all to be had, but that there weren't enough to justify the scale of the bombing, which was likely true.

And who knows what the Germans could make out of chinaware?

You can argue all you want, but even the planners now admit that the firebombing of Dresden was nothing more than paybacks. Even Churchill admitted as much at the time; although he made considerable efforts to distance himself from having said so, and his wartime popularity cushioned him from any blowback from the aftermath.

The city was the main target of the bombing; but all the militarily important sites were outside the city proper and had to be retargeted later. So there was no valid reason for hitting Dresden except, as Churchill admitted, to destroy what was left of German morale. Which may or may not be a valid military justification; but why pretend otherwise?

alltandubh:

If they are both "conservative", why would Tea Party members* find the governing philosophy of the Taliban utterly repugnant? I'm reminded of the time during the Cold War when the New York Times would claim that the "conservative" Reagan was at loggerheads with the "conservatives" in the Kremlin -- I mean really, how contradictory can you get? If they were all conservatives they would have been on the best of terms about everything.

Because your god is bigger and better than their god?

You do both want the same thing, to be in charge of everyone's personal life. it just YOU want to be in charge rather than THEM. And the idea that someday they might be in charge of you is really, really scary to you.

/*the word "teabagger" is an idiotic anti- gay slur, by the way

It's self-inflicted.

really...
The Inquisitions
The Dark Ages
The Crusades
The 'converting of the savages" in the "New World"
The Salem Witch trials
Modern Day social terrorism against people and groups that they don't agree with.

Christians have a long history of terror esque actions. Sadly if given the power they would repeat the same actions in new and even more terrifying directions. I understand there are those that claim no connection to the factual history of Christianity, but really exam Christianity as a whole, not just your little progressive strand; listen to the loud mouths that are in power that people listen to the most within the Christian communities... now imagine if Christians once again had the power they once wielded; what would those loud mouths do with that power?

The most recent religion is just the most recent excuse to kill people. The Muslims were doing it before they were Muslims, before Mohamed was even born. Christians were doing it before Christ was born. And blaming on the farking Golden Goat or whatever the fark it was.

Religion doesn't have anything to do with it.

Pro-Life Death Squads For God.

Sensitiveborderarea: I believe this incident has about about a 99% chance of being a false flag attack to demonize and demoralize the European nationalist movements. On the other hand, if you like to believe evil fairy tales, you can believe that the first European nationalist to take action against the anti-European genocide in Europe just happened to be a guy murdering about a hundred European children.

lol wut

Kazan: are you unfamiliar with tatsuma? the dude is a rampant racist farktard... anyone who isn't jewish who questions the actions of the israeli government is instantly an anti-semite in his book.

Histrionic much? I think you're exaggerating just a tad. You obviously have some grudge.

Plus it's still obvious you never actually read what he wrote in this thread, you just spazzed at seeing his name.

Kazan: Doggie McNugget: Kazan: tatsuma

not only are you a racist fark, but you're a "willing to fellate a christian terrorist because he supports my ethnic groups worst policies" racist fark



You seriously think that's what he meant? You need more reading lessons. And less caffeine.

are you unfamiliar with tatsuma? the dude is a rampant racist farktard... anyone who isn't jewish who questions the actions of the israeli government is instantly an anti-semite in his book.

thus his instant jump to defend someone who supports his favorite government on the planet

not to mention he's a farking major right wing jackass.



just sayin'

She comes in colors everywhere: Sensitiveborderarea: I believe this incident has about about a 99% chance of being a false flag attack to demonize and demoralize the European nationalist movements. On the other hand, if you like to believe evil fairy tales, you can believe that the first European nationalist to take action against the anti-European genocide in Europe just happened to be a guy murdering about a hundred European children.

lol wut

At least David Duke had the common sense to say he was only influenced by Zionism, not forced into it by evil Jews.

Pretty bad when the Dukester makes you seem nutty.

While the shrill denials of McVeigh and Breivik's Christianity are mildly amusing, I'm sure we can all agree they're not true Scotsmen.

What's interesting is how they both avoided outgrowing their bigotry and instead constructed a narrative that allowed them to transfer their fear and hatred to an institution, much like many of the teabaggers have. Klansmen are frowned upon. Capitalist/Christian? OK.

"How you Doohan?"

ANYWAY, there's way too much talk of war and Tatsuma in this thread, which is SUPPOSED to be where the I and the rest of the Fark Militant Atheist Brigade get to look down our atheist noses at all of you people who believe in stupid shiat and tell you how stupid it is. WHAR religion thread, WHAR?

Human history would be far less entertaining without folks who believe in invisible deities.

"Breivik is not a Christian. That's impossible. No one believing in Jesus commits mass murder," Bill O'Reilly said

Bill O'Reilly owes me a new keyboard and monitor.

Barbecue Bob: Human history would be far less entertaining without folks who believe in invisible deities.

I'm okay with that, as long as "less entertaining" means "less stabby" and less "anti-progress". Which it does.

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: While the shrill denials of McVeigh and Breivik's Christianity are mildly amusing,

McVeigh stated that he wasn't a Christian. I don't know what further proof you'd need other than that. Breivik states that he is a cultural Christian but does not believe in the divinity of Jesus and doesn't know if God exists. So I'd call him an Agnostic Unitarian, maybe.

simplicimus: Oh, you referenced my hatred of Mel Gibson. As a catholic, I hated Passion of the you know who. A human dying is really not that magical, in fact I think most do. Not the point of my religion. And if he died of old age, we wouldnt have a religion.

Hating that movie probably had a lot more to do with being a sane human being than being a catholic. The only people I know that like it, LOVE it, and they happen to be of the evangelical/biblical literalist/teabagger/crazy person persuasion.

MickCollins: So I'd call him an Agnostic Unitarian, maybe.

Well, I'm calling them both Christians. So that's settled.
Is Romney a Christian?

simplicimus: if he died of old age, we wouldnt have a religion.

I think the need for religion will be provided for, one way or the other.

MickCollins: Breivik states that he is a cultural Christian but does not believe in the divinity of Jesus and doesn't know if God exists. So I'd call him an Agnostic Unitarian, maybe.

Or an agnostic jew?

Wow this is the perfect anti Fark religion circlejerk!

fusillade762: "Breivik is not a Christian. That's impossible. No one believing in Jesus commits mass murder," Bill O'Reilly said

I'm just relieved that masses of christians aren't supporting what he did. We are having trouble enough with one extremeist religion.

bmr68: That Norwegian nut is not a Christian.

Of course not. He just wrote a 1500-page screed full of bible quotes and christian imagery to defend / explain his actions.

ThrobblefootSpectre: I'm just relieved that masses of christians aren't supporting what he did. We are having trouble enough with one extremeist religion.

Masses of christians, no, but it turns out that he has a lot of support from the grottier parts of our societies. "We agree with his opinions but of course we don't support what he did."

I suspect we're going to see many more Breiviks in the coming decade.

MickCollins: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: While the shrill denials of McVeigh and Breivik's Christianity are mildly amusing,

McVeigh stated that he wasn't a Christian. I don't know what further proof you'd need other than that. Breivik states that he is a cultural Christian but does not believe in the divinity of Jesus and doesn't know if God exists. So I'd call him an Agnostic Unitarian, maybe.

As a side note, notice how Christians like to distance themselves from any sort of remote association with terrorism of any kind, yet seem to have no problem calling the US president a seekrit Muslim and question his own Christianity.

simplicimus: Wow. That is a argument for another day. Someone immersed in German mythology (Wagner) and a distortion of Nietzsche as a Christian? Great topic.

Hitler was a good christian according to his contemporaries. Whether he personally believed or not is irrelevant (although there is no reason to believe he didn't).

hardinparamedic: *yawn* Christian Terrorism in the United States is nothing new. Tim McVeigh waves hi from hell.

except mcveigh was agnostic.


a reporter interviewed Mcveigh before his death.


http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2001/04/04/michelherbeck/ (new window)

Question from chat room: Does McVeigh have any spiritual-religious beliefs?

Lou Michel: McVeigh is agnostic. He doesn't believe in God, but he won't rule out the possibility. I asked him, "What if there is a heaven and hell?"

He said that once he crosses over the line from life to death, if there is something on the other side, he will -- and this is using his military jargon -- "adapt, improvise, and overcome." Death to him is all part of the adventure.

Chat Moderator: Do you have any final thoughts to share?

Dan Herbeck: We would just like to say that we understand that this book is painful for people to read, especially for people from Oklahoma City. In many ways, it was a painful book for us to write. It's a true story, but more horrifying than anything even Stephen King could dream up. We want people to understand that we wrote this book in hopes that understanding McVeigh and this horrible crime can help us somehow avoid having more terrorist acts like this in the future.

Uncle Tractor: simplicimus: Wow. That is a argument for another day. Someone immersed in German mythology (Wagner) and a distortion of Nietzsche as a Christian? Great topic.

Hitler was a good christian according to his contemporaries. Whether he personally believed or not is irrelevant (although there is no reason to believe he didn't).

that's such a load of horse shiat.

I'm not a f*cking christian, but you people are straight farking ridiculous with your lies, who the fark thinks they can go around saying mcveigh and freaking hitler of all people were christians and not get called out on it? stupid f*cks.

Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939 a conversation in which Hitler had "expressed his revulsion against Christianity. He wished that the time were ripe for him to be able to openly express that. Christianity had corrupted and infected the entire world of antiquity."[26] Albert Speer reports in his memoirs of a similar statement made by Hitler: "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"[27]

relcec: that's such a load of horse shiat.

And your basis for that comment is ...?

relcec: I'm not a f*cking christian, but you people are straight farking ridiculous with your lies, who the fark thinks they can go around saying mcveigh and freaking hitler of all people were christians and not get called out on it? stupid f*cks.

You seem to think the Holocaust was an isolated incident that came out of nowhere.

/dunno about McVeigh

relcec: except mcveigh was agnostic.


a reporter interviewed Mcveigh before his death.


http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2001/04/04/michelherbeck/ (new window)



Christian abortion clinic body count: 7
Atheist bombing body count: 168

simplicimus: I'm gonna guess not on the Christian thing. Nietzsche's uebermensch is beyond the Christian (slave) mentality of good and evil. And Wagner's stuff is anything but Christian.

Everything Hitler said and did was drenched in christianity. Jesus this, god that.

"I say: My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. .. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison."

(some guy named "adolf" in the Bürgerbräukeller on April 12, 1922)

And the whole mass murder thing seems slightly unchristian.

What gave you that impression?

ThrobblefootSpectre: relcec: except mcveigh was agnostic.


a reporter interviewed Mcveigh before his death.


http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2001/04/04/michelherbeck/ (new window)



Christian abortion clinic body count: 7
Atheist bombing body count: 168

What?
Anybody ever said, "We're gonna bomb this place because we don't belive in god!"?