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(BBC)   Hints of the Higgs boson seen tomorrow at the LHC   ( bbc.co.uk) divider line
    More: Cool, LHC, statistical significance, particle beams  
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15675 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jul 2011 at 9:16 PM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-07-24 10:34:28 PM  
OK, I am not a physicist, but the other day I was reading something that said that most or all of the mass of elementary particles is explained by relativistic effects - ie, protons don't really have that much mass, it is created by their speed and energy. This got me to thinking, why do we need a higgs boson at all? Can't we explain all objects mass in a similar way? What if all mass is just an effect of relativity and not really "real"? Can one of you farker GED physicists help me out here?
 
2011-07-24 10:38:40 PM  
All boson jokes aside, I have a question.After reading TFA and remarks,
will our tin foil hats no longer offer protection if they catch this thingamajob?
 
2011-07-24 10:45:25 PM  

endlessmonkeys: It was truly the high point of Obama's unprecented 4th term as President.



Unprecedented? 4th term? Really?
 
2011-07-24 10:59:11 PM  

Fat-D: endlessmonkeys: It was truly the high point of Obama's unprecented 4th term as President.


Unprecedented? 4th term? Really?


A black man was never elected fdr times.

I mean... four times.
 
2011-07-24 11:01:26 PM  
Beware, you who seek first and final principles, for you are trampling the garden of an angry God and he awaits you just beyond the last theorem.
 
2011-07-24 11:04:47 PM  

Sock Ruh Tease: Fat-D: endlessmonkeys: It was truly the high point of Obama's unprecented 4th term as President.


Unprecedented? 4th term? Really?

A black man was never elected fdr times.

I mean... four times.


/thread
 
2011-07-24 11:05:59 PM  
x64.xanga.com
 
2011-07-24 11:06:19 PM  

oldebayer: All of France is laughing, saying "We've already got one."


Yes, it's very nice.
 
2011-07-24 11:07:28 PM  

Sock Ruh Tease: Fat-D: endlessmonkeys: It was truly the high point of Obama's unprecented 4th term as President.


Unprecedented? 4th term? Really?

A black man was never elected fdr times.

I mean... four times.


/snerk
 
2011-07-24 11:07:48 PM  
Will I have already missed it by then?
 
2011-07-24 11:08:07 PM  

sweet-daddy-2: All boson jokes aside, I have a question.After reading TFA and remarks,
will our tin foil hats no longer offer protection if they catch this thingamajob?


Actually, your tin foil hat acts more as an antenna than a shield. Since it's not fully unclosed (thus creating an Faraday cage), it will receive signals better than your un-foiled head.
 
2011-07-24 11:10:21 PM  

Ika7734: sweet-daddy-2: All boson jokes aside, I have a question.After reading TFA and remarks,
will our tin foil hats no longer offer protection if they catch this thingamajob?

Actually, your tin foil hat acts more as an antenna than a shield. Since it's not fully unclosed (thus creating an Faraday cage), it will receive signals better than your un-foiled head.


unclosed? duhh... ENclosed.
 
2011-07-24 11:20:23 PM  
Someone mentioned my name?
 
2011-07-24 11:21:15 PM  

JasonOfOrillia: Hints of the Higgs boson was seen tomorrow at the LHC

FTFY Subby


i'm also getting tired of seeing this headline again and again
 
2011-07-24 11:26:17 PM  
What a waste of time. They should be working on free energy.
 
2011-07-24 11:28:19 PM  
Higgs Boson killed Amy Winehouse.
 
2011-07-24 11:30:37 PM  

Ika7734: sweet-daddy-2: All boson jokes aside, I have a question.After reading TFA and remarks,
will our tin foil hats no longer offer protection if they catch this thingamajob?

Actually, your tin foil hat acts more as an antenna than a shield. Since it's not fully unclosed (thus creating an Faraday cage), it will receive signals better than your un-foiled head.


Confused I now am. I wear them to keep pigeon shiat out of my hair. If they catch this dowackything,pigeons will have super powers and tinfoil hats will be of no use. fark it , I'm going to bed
 
2011-07-24 11:34:51 PM  

Captain Steroid: And SERN inches closer and closer to world domination...


Human is dead - mismatch.
 
2011-07-24 11:38:28 PM  

The Elusive Higgs Bosom: Someone mentioned my name?


No, that's yesterday.
 
2011-07-24 11:44:54 PM  

endlessmonkeys: I'm really glad that they rediverted NASA funds into assisting with CERN a few years ago. It was truly the high point of Obama's unprecented 4th term as President.

Still not sure why they decided to transplant GInsberg's brain into an android body and start electing SCOTUS justices to 1000 year terms.. but the past 300 years of her rule have been fairly ok.

Gotta go. I need to be on Mars in 26 minutes.


FDR had four terms. Or at least started a 4th term
 
2011-07-24 11:47:04 PM  

Here let me help you with that: endlessmonkeys: I'm really glad that they rediverted NASA funds into assisting with CERN a few years ago. It was truly the high point of Obama's unprecented 4th term as President.

Still not sure why they decided to transplant GInsberg's brain into an android body and start electing SCOTUS justices to 1000 year terms.. but the past 300 years of her rule have been fairly ok.

Gotta go. I need to be on Mars in 26 minutes.

FDR had four terms. Or at least started a 4th term


Note to self: read all comments before replying
 
2011-07-24 11:52:07 PM  
www.realityravings.com

What a Higgs bosom might look like
 
2011-07-25 12:03:47 AM  

Foreground My Ass: /be here all night...lol


Remember (NSFW) (new window)
 
2011-07-25 12:10:01 AM  

The Elusive Higgs Bosom: Someone mentioned my name?


I always wish I had thought of alts like that!

/kicks rock
 
2011-07-25 12:23:33 AM  

JasonOfOrillia: Hints of the Higgs boson was seen tomorrow at the LHC

FTFY Subby


Shouldn't it be "were"? It's acting on hints, hints were seen; vs hints were seen.
You would be right if it was just the Higgs Boson, "The higgs boson was seen..." but it's not.

I think this is an honest to God Rotsky, nice work.
 
2011-07-25 12:33:08 AM  
Wait ... who's trying to do what now??
 
2011-07-25 12:35:24 AM  
at that level, pfft, i'm seriously doubtful the Higgs turns out to be a particle. i'll of course argue that there is an event there, that is has follows similar rules of forces of attraction. but really, i suspect we're looking at massless interactions of energy which, per their own peculiar rules, are the root "urge" that makes up gravitation.

[dense.lecture.on.theoretical.physics.jpg]
 
2011-07-25 12:36:19 AM  
Came here looking for Haggis, was severely disappointed

/and dyslexic
 
2011-07-25 12:43:54 AM  

radinator: ZAZ: What's colorless, flavorless, spins about *this* fast, and weighs in at around 140 GeV fully dressed?.

Since the top is at 172 GeV and we've been producing those, why would a Higgs at 140 GeV not have been seen in significant numbers already?


The production probability is vanishingly vanishingly low compared to even top production rates. It has to do with the feynmann diagrams that go into producing them.

archnem: OK, I am not a physicist, but the other day I was reading something that said that most or all of the mass of elementary particles is explained by relativistic effects - ie, protons don't really have that much mass, it is created by their speed and energy. This got me to thinking, why do we need a higgs boson at all? Can't we explain all objects mass in a similar way? What if all mass is just an effect of relativity and not really "real"? Can one of you farker GED physicists help me out here?


Close. Most of the mass of the proton isn't from the constituent quarks, it's from (depending on how you want to describe it) the field that binds the quarks together/the pairs of gluons that are zipping back and forth transmitting that force. But the particles themselves do have mass and that's explained (we think) by the higgs field.

/csb
 
2011-07-25 12:52:13 AM  

minitrue noram: at that level, pfft, i'm seriously doubtful the Higgs turns out to be a particle. i'll of course argue that there is an event there, that is has follows similar rules of forces of attraction. but really, i suspect we're looking at massless interactions of energy which, per their own peculiar rules, are the root "urge" that makes up gravitation.

[dense.lecture.on.theoretical.physics.jpg]


The higgs is related to gravitation because mass is related to gravity, but the idea is that higgs is (in a way) for why things have mass. Also, the higgs only makes sense if it's a particle, it's nonsensical to talk about it otherwise.
 
2011-07-25 02:06:29 AM  
I wanna Hugg bosoms
 
2011-07-25 02:06:40 AM  

PerilousApricot: radinator: ZAZ: What's colorless, flavorless, spins about *this* fast, and weighs in at around 140 GeV fully dressed?.

Since the top is at 172 GeV and we've been producing those, why would a Higgs at 140 GeV not have been seen in significant numbers already?

The production probability is vanishingly vanishingly low compared to even top production rates. It has to do with the feynmann diagrams that go into producing them.archnem: OK, I am not a physicist, but the other day I was reading something that said that most or all of the mass of elementary particles is explained by relativistic effects - ie, protons don't really have that much mass, it is created by their speed and energy. This got me to thinking, why do we need a higgs boson at all? Can't we explain all objects mass in a similar way? What if all mass is just an effect of relativity and not really "real"? Can one of you farker GED physicists help me out here?

Close. Most of the mass of the proton isn't from the constituent quarks, it's from (depending on how you want to describe it) the field that binds the quarks together/the pairs of gluons that are zipping back and forth transmitting that force. But the particles themselves do have mass and that's explained (we think) by the higgs field.

/csb


You seem to know what you're talking about. Can you direct me to some explanation that might be understood by a layman? I've know about the Higgs boson particle for a while now. I believe that some have refereed to it as the god particle. But I have yet to find an explanation that has been dumbed down enough for me to understand what it is and why it's so important.
 
2011-07-25 02:55:57 AM  
When particles physics and mythology intersect... voila Higgs Boson. Just because some guy predicted it and after a billion collisions... it's dead Jim

This is when I hate science.... come on stop beating the dead horse there are other fruitful avenues you are not even aware of
 
2011-07-25 03:00:27 AM  
I swear to gawd I am going to pistol whip the next particle physicist who proposes we need a larger collider to prove something unreal.
 
2011-07-25 03:00:56 AM  
www.nightmarepark.com
 
2011-07-25 03:35:58 AM  

Philbb: PerilousApricot: radinator: ZAZ: What's colorless, flavorless, spins about *this* fast, and weighs in at around 140 GeV fully dressed?.

Since the top is at 172 GeV and we've been producing those, why would a Higgs at 140 GeV not have been seen in significant numbers already?

The production probability is vanishingly vanishingly low compared to even top production rates. It has to do with the feynmann diagrams that go into producing them.archnem: OK, I am not a physicist, but the other day I was reading something that said that most or all of the mass of elementary particles is explained by relativistic effects - ie, protons don't really have that much mass, it is created by their speed and energy. This got me to thinking, why do we need a higgs boson at all? Can't we explain all objects mass in a similar way? What if all mass is just an effect of relativity and not really "real"? Can one of you farker GED physicists help me out here?

Close. Most of the mass of the proton isn't from the constituent quarks, it's from (depending on how you want to describe it) the field that binds the quarks together/the pairs of gluons that are zipping back and forth transmitting that force. But the particles themselves do have mass and that's explained (we think) by the higgs field.

/csb

You seem to know what you're talking about. Can you direct me to some explanation that might be understood by a layman? I've know about the Higgs boson particle for a while now. I believe that some have refereed to it as the god particle. But I have yet to find an explanation that has been dumbed down enough for me to understand what it is and why it's so important.


Oof, that's pretty hard. I poked around google, but couldn't find something that didn't start with assuming you know quantum mechanics.

Basically, the standard model (SM) predicts that the W and Z bosons (who are responsible for transmitting the electroweak force along with the photon) should be massless, but we see that they aren't. This would appear to be a failure of the standard model, so some dudes basically postulated that spontaneous symmetry breaking combined with the higgs mechanism causes the W and Z bosons to have a mass (while still leaving the photon massless). It's a fairly elegant solution to the problem (well, as elegant as the properties of gauge invariant field calculations are), and we'd like to see if it's true

When you do some math on the higgs mechanism (or at least the simplest way to calculate it), we see that there should be a new, not seen before, particle that pops out of the equations when you have a higgs field. That's the higgs boson, and if you can detect it, measure its mass and all those fun things particle physicists like to do, then you've validated the theory. Of course, there are either more complex versions of the theory (there's some theories that predict a whole family of higgs particles with similar properties) or some theories that just go off in a completely different direction
 
2011-07-25 04:27:57 AM  

PerilousApricot: Oof, that's pretty hard. I poked around google, but couldn't find something that didn't start with assuming you know quantum mechanics.


Thanks for taking the time. I'll follow the links in your response. Hopefully, working backwards, I can find a place wherein I have a solid enough understanding to then work my way forward.

With a little bit of luck I should be able to get myself there no more than four or five months ago.
 
2011-07-25 04:48:51 AM  
Arn_Dee:

Stupid type 13 planet...
 
2011-07-25 05:15:46 AM  

berylman: I swear to gawd I am going to pistol whip the next particle physicist who proposes we need a larger collider to prove something unreal.


Perhaps PerilousApricot can confirm, but as I understand it the LHC WILL either find good evidence for the Higgs Boson (and thus "prove" the Standard Model), or show that the Higgs Boson doesn't exist at the energy levels it would have to for the Standard Model to work (and thus disprove the Standard Model).

Whichever result we eventually get, a larger/more energetic collider would be pointless unless the physicists can come up with some other theoretical model and devise specific predictions and experiments to test it.

FTA: Five-sigma is the level of certainty generally required for a formal discovery. At this significance level there is about a one in 1,000,000 chance that a bump in the data is just a fluke.

1 in a million chances come up 9 times out of 10. Everybody knows that.
 
2011-07-25 06:40:34 AM  
Bob Wilson, the first director of Fermilab (and essentially its architect) testified in 1969 before the Congressional Joint Committee on Atomic Energy. Senator John Pastore demanded to know how a multimillion-dollar particle accelerator improved the security of the country. Wilson said it had "nothing at all" to do with security, and the senator persisted, provoking this wonderful statement from Wilson:

"It has only to do with the respect with which we regard one another, the dignity of men, our love of culture. It has to do with: Are we good painters, good sculptors, great poets? I mean all the things we really venerate in our country and are patriotic about. It has nothing to do directly with defending our country except to make it worth defending."

Truer words were never spoken. This shut the senator up and got Fermilab its funding. Today, of course, some nitwit senator would probably insist that particle physics is a liberal hoax, and we should cut funding for basic scientific research so we can give "job creators" more tax breaks.
 
2011-07-25 07:43:31 AM  

thalidomide new and improved: I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but when I try to read and understand what the Higgs Boson is, I kinda start feeling like this.

[www.turnoffyourtv.com image 355x230]


I don't know why everyone has such trouble finding the bosun. The bosun is usually hanging out with the first mate up on the quarterdeck.
 
2011-07-25 08:26:34 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: JasonOfOrillia: Hints of the Higgs boson was seen tomorrow at the LHC

FTFY Subby

Shouldn't it be "were"? It's acting on hints, hints were seen; vs hints were seen.
You would be right if it was just the Higgs Boson, "The higgs boson was seen..." but it's not.

I think this is an honest to God Rotsky, nice work.


/pet peeve
 
2011-07-25 08:45:04 AM  
I found the Higgs last week, it had fallen behind the couch with my keys and cell phone.
 
2011-07-25 10:49:46 AM  

the_chief: You're a boson.


I LOL'd.

/so did my roommate
 
2011-07-25 11:31:39 AM  

james1878: berylman: I swear to gawd I am going to pistol whip the next particle physicist who proposes we need a larger collider to prove something unreal.

Perhaps PerilousApricot can confirm, but as I understand it the LHC WILL either find good evidence for the Higgs Boson (and thus "prove" the Standard Model), or show that the Higgs Boson doesn't exist at the energy levels it would have to for the Standard Model to work (and thus disprove the Standard Model).


yeah. If it's there in this mass range, the LHC will say one way or another.


Whichever result we eventually get, a larger/more energetic collider would be pointless unless the physicists can come up with some other theoretical model and devise specific predictions and experiments to test it.


The ILC is still being batted around as the next "big" thing. If it ends up getting built, it'll probably end up being the last "big big big" detector. It's getting too expensive to build these things already and we're running into some pretty fundamental limitations on how much more powerful they can get without balooning the cost through the stratosphere
 
2011-07-25 11:45:41 AM  
FTFA: Physicists have cautioned that these possible hints could disappear after further analysis.

Then stop observing it, you 'tards!
 
2011-07-25 11:46:39 AM  

PerilousApricot: james1878: berylman: I swear to gawd I am going to pistol whip the next particle physicist who proposes we need a larger collider to prove something unreal.

Perhaps PerilousApricot can confirm, but as I understand it the LHC WILL either find good evidence for the Higgs Boson (and thus "prove" the Standard Model), or show that the Higgs Boson doesn't exist at the energy levels it would have to for the Standard Model to work (and thus disprove the Standard Model).


yeah. If it's there in this mass range, the LHC will say one way or another.


Whichever result we eventually get, a larger/more energetic collider would be pointless unless the physicists can come up with some other theoretical model and devise specific predictions and experiments to test it.


The ILC is still being batted around as the next "big" thing. If it ends up getting built, it'll probably end up being the last "big big big" detector. It's getting too expensive to build these things already and we're running into some pretty fundamental limitations on how much more powerful they can get without balooning the cost through the stratosphere


Or the tool itself ballooning into stratosphere...

/Kablooie
 
2011-07-25 11:51:28 AM  

Angel of Death: rogue49: Quite frankly, I don't believe they will find it...or it will be something else.
There is likely another way of mass being applied. IMHO

/not trolling here...sincere. Good luck though.

Are you a professional physicist with a legitimate capacity to opine on the subject, or just a contrarian tool?


Not a pro, amateur...who loves dimensional physics, relativity and quantum mechanics.
I've got some ideas myself, but don't feel like taking the time or effort here.
But thanks for posting at Fark.

/geez...why do people think you have to get paid to do science? Damn, its all about those little piece of paper giving the warm & fuzzies.
 
2011-07-25 12:30:36 PM  

dodecahedron: Uchiha_Cycliste: JasonOfOrillia: Hints of the Higgs boson was seen tomorrow at the LHC

FTFY Subby

Shouldn't it be "were"? It's acting on hints, hints were seen; vs hints wereas seen.
You would be right if it was just the Higgs Boson, "The higgs boson was seen..." but it's not.

I think this is an honest to God Rotsky, nice work.

/pet peeve


blast! knew I missed something.
 
2011-07-25 02:46:04 PM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: dodecahedron: Uchiha_Cycliste: JasonOfOrillia: Hints of the Higgs boson was seen tomorrow at the LHC

FTFY Subby

Shouldn't it be "were"? It's acting on hints, hints were seen; vs hints wereas seen.
You would be right if it was just the Higgs Boson, "The higgs boson was seen..." but it's not.

I think this is an honest to God Rotsky, nice work.

/pet peeve

blast! knew I missed something.


Still one of the funniest Fark threads of all time.
 
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