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(Huffington Post)   Remember that article saying that the attacks in Oslo were by a group of radical Islamists? Well, turns out it was by a single far-right wing Christian who hated Islam. Oops   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 788
    More: Followup, Oslo, Islamists  
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12391 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jul 2011 at 5:43 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-07-23 08:19:07 AM

mbillips: Anybody know what the deal is on that in Norway?


I just read on Wiki that fully auto weapons are verboten and that taking any semi-auto and making it fully auto is also verboten.

There is a total ban on automatic weapons for civilians, unless they fall into the collector category. Modification of semi-automatic guns into fully automatic without the consent of the police is a felony crime.
 
2011-07-23 08:19:21 AM

Unright: AngryTeacher: I am already hearing some spin here. Of course, this event is being used to prove that Obama is bad.

Some examples...
When you take guns from people, this is what happens.
Socialism always has revolutions because people want to be free.
This is where we are heading for because of Obamacare.

WTF? Remind the idiots around you that most of the people who died were 16-17 year olds. This wasn't a revolution. They wouldn't have had guns at an American summer camp either. And I can't even begin to understand the mentality that would link this to farking health care.


Conservatives are despicable. Not all of them, of course, but for the ideologues among them THEY will always be the victims, and everything will always prove THEM right.
 
2011-07-23 08:19:58 AM

relcec: jso2897: relcec: jso2897: relcec: jso2897: fusillade762: Wonder how long before the Freepers claim he's an undercover Muslim trying to make right-wing Christians look bad?

They'll do a "McVeigh" on him. Even though little Timmy was born and raised an Xtian, and put it on every form he filled out, he told one reporter that he was an "agnostic" - so the Xtians pronounced him an "atheist".
They'll find a way to "no true Scotsman" this guy too.


In the letters to his hometown paper, McVeigh reiterated that what he did was necessary to defend the personal freedom of all Americans and exact revenge for the disastrous government raids at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas. ..

McVeigh, who grew up in nearby Pendleton, N.Y., wrote the News that he might have chosen another tactic for expressing his hatred of the government. He said he sometimes wishes he had carried out a series of assassinations against police and government officials instead.

In the letters, McVeigh insisted he has no fear of his execution. An agnostic, he said he will "improvise, adapt and overcome" if it turns out that there is an afterlife

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93140&page=1 (new window)

Right - so after a lifetime as a Xtian, he magically became "not one" - how convenient. And I'm sure the same spin will be put on this guy.
Why not? God didn't mean for that "don't bear false witness" stuff to apply when you're defending the faith, after all.


Right, so McVeigh was f*cking with the agnostics by pretending to be one of them when he gave his pre-execution confessionals? you know, you're as bad as the those freaks that see mooslim terrorists around every corner. you're pathetic.

That's exactly my point. Get it, now?
It's time to quit pretending that terrorism comes from Islam, or the left, or the right, or any particular ideology. It is a potential with ALL of them.
My remarks were addresses to the same people who were in here yelling about "religion of peace" twenty-four hours ago, and are now bleating for "fairness".

no, several times now you have denied that McVeigh was an agnostic and also claimed that there was some type of christian conspiracy to push the myth that he wasn't christian. you brought this bullshiat up. no one was even talking about it until you opened your fat mouth about it. you are just as bad as all those bigots you abhor. now just shut the f*ck up about it, jackass.


Well, I sure as hell won't talk to YOU anymore, grumpy-puss. :D
 
m00
2011-07-23 08:20:03 AM

Magorn: Toriko: This article has a bit more information about how he killed the kids.

I hate Monday morning quarterbacking in situations like this, but I'll never understand how a single gunman racks up a body count like this. At Some point don't his victims realize that if they gang up and charge him, he'll get some of them, but not all of them before they get to him? It seems like you've a much greater chance of survival running TOWARDS a guy like this en masse than you do trying to outrun a rifle bullet.


Apparently, he was in a police uniform. So he'd go to a group that was hiding and say "don't worry, the police is here! come out!" and then shoot them as they came out.
 
2011-07-23 08:22:07 AM

m00: Magorn: Toriko: This article has a bit more information about how he killed the kids.

I hate Monday morning quarterbacking in situations like this, but I'll never understand how a single gunman racks up a body count like this. At Some point don't his victims realize that if they gang up and charge him, he'll get some of them, but not all of them before they get to him? It seems like you've a much greater chance of survival running TOWARDS a guy like this en masse than you do trying to outrun a rifle bullet.

Apparently, he was in a police uniform. So he'd go to a group that was hiding and say "don't worry, the police is here! come out!" and then shoot them as they came out.


That's so f*cking sick. I'm with dogbutt up there. Flay him and keep him alive.
 
2011-07-23 08:22:18 AM

gameshowhost: He hated Islam for its freedoms.



LOL!
 
2011-07-23 08:23:18 AM

epoc_tnac: From Fox news: Authorities search for more victims in capital bombing and youth camp shooting rampage that killed at least 91 - carried out by a lone attacker identified as Anders Behring Breivik, reportedly with no ties to Islamic terrorism.

Now that's how you frame a discussion in your favour. Instead of saying "reportedly with ties to far-right extremists", you say "well normally it would be the muzzies".



Well, yes - in the Fox worldview, terrorism is Islamic by default, and occasions where it isn't are the exceptions that prove the rule.
 
2011-07-23 08:23:27 AM
Cataholic: jso2897: fusillade762: Wonder how long before the Freepers claim he's an undercover Muslim trying to make right-wing Christians look bad?

They'll do a "McVeigh" on him. Even though little Timmy was born and raised an Xtian, and put it on every form he filled out, he told one reporter that he was an "agnostic" - so the Xtians pronounced him an "atheist".
They'll find a way to "no true Scotsman" this guy too.

You fear Christ and Christians so much you can't even bear to type the letters "christ"?


Fun Fact: Timothy McVeigh took catholic last rights moments before his execution.

http://articles.cnn.com/2001-06-11/justice/mcveigh.03_1_timothy-mcveigh-first-f e deral-execution-mcveigh-attorney?_s=PM:LAW

/lol @ fear Christ and Christians.
 
2011-07-23 08:25:04 AM

Magorn: Benevolent Misanthrope: Oh. Well then, it's an isolated incident, nothing to see here. And of course it had nothing - NOTHING, I say - to do with his religion.

I happened to be watching CNN during lunch in the break room and I heard them doing their typical "well of course we don't know anything for sure BUT..." routine where they all but said that this was OBVIOUSLY the work of Al-Qaeda and CLEARLY motivated by the publication of that cartoon of Mohammed by a Norwegian newspaper, and that Norwegian security officials knew an attack was coming because of chatter on jihadist websites, etc etc

and the whole time this siren was going off in my head and one phrase kept running through my mind: "Oklahoma City"


Yeah, I didn't think the bombing seemed like an al-Qaeda attack, since it was targeted at government buildings rather than people. When's the last big truck bomb they set off in a Western country? The first WTC attack in '93? They're more into the backpack suicide bombs in the crowded public transit. And once I heard about the shooting at a Labor-Party-run youth camp, I figured it had to be local politics-driven, not international jihad.
 
2011-07-23 08:25:10 AM

hardinparamedic: Cataholic: jso2897: fusillade762: Wonder how long before the Freepers claim he's an undercover Muslim trying to make right-wing Christians look bad?

They'll do a "McVeigh" on him. Even though little Timmy was born and raised an Xtian, and put it on every form he filled out, he told one reporter that he was an "agnostic" - so the Xtians pronounced him an "atheist".
They'll find a way to "no true Scotsman" this guy too.

You fear Christ and Christians so much you can't even bear to type the letters "christ"?

Fun Fact: Timothy McVeigh took catholic last rights moments before his execution.

http://articles.cnn.com/2001-06-11/justice/mcveigh.03_1_timothy-mcveigh-first-f e deral-execution-mcveigh-attorney?_s=PM:LAW

/lol @ fear Christ and Christians.


But they weren't "true" last rites! :D
 
2011-07-23 08:25:16 AM

Flissss: The one out of 100 terrorist attacks not done under the veil of Islam....


"SEE, YOU'RE AN ASS FOR THINKING IT WAS A MUSLIM."



It's like finding a zoo worker dead in a tiger cage, yea it might not be the tiger but if I was a betting man, I wouldn't bet against it. "Oh a spider bit him, that's odd."

And in a country where nearly all identified rapes in the previous 5 years are attributed to immigrant muslims, thinking that one using a signature technique of car bombs and shootings was involved is not a flawed thought process.


i782.photobucket.com
 
2011-07-23 08:25:16 AM
relcec: would it surprise you that in absolute terms we have less poverty in America than in France

And yet we have poor people of a type you can't find in Europe. In Europe you might be poor, but you'll have a good roof over your head, you'll have food and have medical care and a bunch more. In the US if you can't work due to disability the government benefit could leave you below the poverty line. Also that graph assumes the poverty as absolute across the board, which it isn't. Just because someone in Germany was earning less than 40% of the median income of an American, doesn't mean they're living in the same conditions as an American earning as much.
 
2011-07-23 08:25:52 AM
From what i just heard on NPR, they said the worse they could do is give the guy 21 years. Then he's free.
 
2011-07-23 08:25:52 AM
Conservatives are the problem, whether it's radical Islamists or far-right wing Christians.
 
2011-07-23 08:27:04 AM

Magorn: Toriko: This article has a bit more information about how he killed the kids.

I hate Monday morning quarterbacking in situations like this, but I'll never understand how a single gunman racks up a body count like this. At Some point don't his victims realize that if they gang up and charge him, he'll get some of them, but not all of them before they get to him? It seems like you've a much greater chance of survival running TOWARDS a guy like this en masse than you do trying to outrun a rifle bullet.


The Roman legions each only numbered 1000 men, and rarely would an entire legion be deployed for a single battle, even when they were facing upwards of 5000 enemies. In violent situations, morale and discipline are everything. One disciplined, unafraid man with plenty of ammunition and a good eye, attack unarmed targets in mass from ambush while disguised as a figure of authority would cause absolute havoc, confusion, and healthy amounts of fear. Once the targets are "broken" and run, it's just a matter of him walking around, shooting them in the back.
 
2011-07-23 08:27:48 AM
Okay, so he was a Neo-Nazi that admired Max Manus. That is kindof... bizarre.
 
2011-07-23 08:28:04 AM

NicoFinn: mbillips: Anybody know what the deal is on that in Norway?

I just read on Wiki that fully auto weapons are verboten and that taking any semi-auto and making it fully auto is also verboten.

There is a total ban on automatic weapons for civilians, unless they fall into the collector category. Modification of semi-automatic guns into fully automatic without the consent of the police is a felony crime.


Sounds like he may have been a licensed collector. Well, there goes THAT NRA talking point (that licensed collectors never misuse full auto weapons).

/Licensed collector, but don't own any Class III stuff yet.
 
2011-07-23 08:28:50 AM
Bit'O'Gristle: From what i just heard on NPR, they said the worse they could do is give the guy 21 years. Then he's free.

Sounds like they need to have a "random" sniper attack on 7/23/2032

/just shoot the head. Saves the organs for donation.
 
2011-07-23 08:29:11 AM

Bit'O'Gristle: From what i just heard on NPR, they said the worse they could do is give the guy 21 years. Then he's free.


Read the thread. Norway has a provision that allows them to keep dangerous people in custody after their sentence is up, indefinitely.
 
2011-07-23 08:29:39 AM

vicejay: I'm curious... WTF is the timing on this? This is a major, breaking story (and I know it's not f'ing news, it's Fark,) but why the 4-hour delay in going green? Maximum effect? Did the f'ing story fall at an inopportune time for maximum impact?

/Jesus H. Tap-dancing Christ on a pogo stick
//Just beating my head against the wall here.



Thou shalt not question The Lord thy Mod.
 
2011-07-23 08:29:40 AM
I forget, does he get an attack chopper or AC-130 at 100 kills?
 
2011-07-23 08:30:15 AM
"My God can beat up your God."

Please, just stop.
 
2011-07-23 08:30:22 AM

Unright:
Some examples...
When you take guns from people, this is what happens.
Socialism always has revolutions because people want to be free.
This is where we are heading for because of Obamacare.

WTF? Remind the idiots around you that most of the people who died were 16-17 year olds. This wasn't a revolution. They wouldn't have had guns at an American summer camp either. And I can't even begin to understand the mentality that would link this to farking health care.


The Libertarian argument is that if everyone had guns (including 16-17 year olds at summer camp, or at least their supervisors) then this type of mass slaughter could not take place as it is harder to shoot at people that can shoot back. It is the laws and regulations that prevent people from carrying guns for protection that are to blame.

The Socialist argument is that the prevalence of guns in society leads to more gun deaths (irrespective of the individual circumstances) and that gun ownership should be restricted as much as possible to limit the ability of wrongdoers to obtain guns. They argue that fewer law-abiding people are killed for want of a gun than would be killed in a permissive gun-owning society.

Take your pick...
 
2011-07-23 08:31:07 AM
ole prophet: Okay, so he was a Neo-Nazi that admired Max Manus. That is kindof... bizarre.

Keep in mind, the dude is much more likely to be an ultra-nationalist, where things like excluding minorities is a coincidental overlap with whatever a neo-nazi might hold. And well Manus worked to keep outsiders, namely the Germans out of Norway. So it does actually work.
 
2011-07-23 08:31:15 AM
relcec: jso2897: relcec: jso2897: relcec: jso2897: fusillade762: Wonder how long before the Freepers claim he's an undercover Muslim trying to make right-wing Christians look bad?

They'll do a "McVeigh" on him. Even though little Timmy was born and raised an Xtian, and put it on every form he filled out, he told one reporter that he was an "agnostic" - so the Xtians pronounced him an "atheist".
They'll find a way to "no true Scotsman" this guy too.


In the letters to his hometown paper, McVeigh reiterated that what he did was necessary to defend the personal freedom of all Americans and exact revenge for the disastrous government raids at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas. ..

McVeigh, who grew up in nearby Pendleton, N.Y., wrote the News that he might have chosen another tactic for expressing his hatred of the government. He said he sometimes wishes he had carried out a series of assassinations against police and government officials instead.

In the letters, McVeigh insisted he has no fear of his execution. An agnostic, he said he will "improvise, adapt and overcome" if it turns out that there is an afterlife

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93140&page=1 (new window)

Right - so after a lifetime as a Xtian, he magically became "not one" - how convenient. And I'm sure the same spin will be put on this guy.
Why not? God didn't mean for that "don't bear false witness" stuff to apply when you're defending the faith, after all.


Right, so McVeigh was f*cking with the agnostics by pretending to be one of them when he gave his pre-execution confessionals? you know, you're as bad as the those freaks that see mooslim terrorists around every corner. you're pathetic.

That's exactly my point. Get it, now?
It's time to quit pretending that terrorism comes from Islam, or the left, or the right, or any particular ideology. It is a potential with ALL of them.
My remarks were addresses to the same people who were in here yelling about "religion of peace" twenty-four hours ago, and are now bleating for "fairness".

no, several times now you have denied that McVeigh was an agnostic and also claimed that there was some type of christian conspiracy to push the myth that he wasn't christian. you brought this bullshiat up. no one was even talking about it until you opened your fat mouth about it. you are just as bad as all those bigots you abhor. now just shut the f*ck up about it, jackass.


Fun fact: McVeigh recieved the catholic sacrement and last rites before riding the Pentobarb.

http://articles.cnn.com/2001-06-11/justice/mcveigh.03_1_timothy-mcveigh-first-f e deral-execution-mcveigh-attorney?_s=PM:LAW


But you keep right on with that But-but-but....AGNOSTIC gambit.
 
2011-07-23 08:31:48 AM

Dr. Mojo PhD: because you immediately assumed it was either Muslims or leftists. Turns out, it was neither!


You really can't read very well can't you? What is the definition of an assumption?

I never "assumed" it was muslims or leftist, on the contrary I assumed it WASN'T muslims! And I suggested (which is something entirely different than assumed), that it might be another group, such as leftists (which I thought of since the news said they targeted the oil ministry). "I wonder if it's Al Qaeda, it could also be.." means "I don't think it is Al Qaeda, it might as well be other groups such as.."

So there you have it. The meaning of my quick and short comment might have been ambiguous for people with limited reading skills like you, but now I have explained it to you, hopefully you know that I didn't assume it was Muslims, and therefore I am not racist islam hating bigot as you initially and falsely accused me of.

So, again. I did never assume immediately that it was Muslims. You however have , without sufficient basis, assumed that I did and accused me.


As for the rest, for those people (so not including me) who indeed did assume at first that it was Muslims, again I would like to ask you, how is that strange, and more importantly, how is that equal to hating all Muslims and stereotyping them (also a word which you should look up in a dictionary, since you are using it wrong)?

What is the last major bombing or political murder in western Europe that wasn't done by Muslim extremists? We've had major bombings in England, Spain, a murder in Holland, death threats in Denmark, and several failed/prevented attacks, all by Muslim extremists. Isn't it therefore entirely understable (I don't say it's right, but understable) that people's first thought would be that it is another one of this occassions? And again, even if one would assume it, does that automatically make him a hater thing of all things Islamic?

So, not only do you fail at reading, you also fail at logic.

Someone is having the initial thought that a bomber might or might not be another muslim extremist. Do you really have enough evidence from that simple fact to go on assuming that he therefore automatically must be a racist bigot who is stereotyping all muslims as extreme fundamentalists suicide bombers and sees all of islam as an evil religion? Because that is what you are doing.

Do you really know all that from a few words, or are you just making assumptions based on almost nothing? And are you therefore accusing people based on those groundless assumptions?

Again, you are the one who is doing what you are accusing others of. Making groundless assumptions,hate, bigotry and stereotyping.

You're a major bigot, and judging from your posts so far you're not a very nice person in general.

I know shouldn't have wasted so much time on you, but if there is one thing I can't stand it is bigotry, stereotyping and people falsely accusing me.
 
2011-07-23 08:31:48 AM

jaytkay: Conservatives are the problem, whether it's radical Islamists or far-right wing Christians.


Not conservatives. The radical orthodox, of whatever flavor. Conservatives are just regular people, if a bit more on the suspicious tightwad side of things.
 
2011-07-23 08:32:04 AM
Well, some people here think that an execution/revenge would be stooping to their level, but I disagree. I don't think it's either being weak/immature or strong.

I just don't see why a State needs to house, feed, and give free medical care to a scumbag like this for the rest of his natural life. The Chinese would do a fast and cheap execution and send the bill for the ammunition to the guy's family.

But, if the Norwegies want to spend their time and money on this guy who murdered almost 100 children, then they can enjoy.


It's funny to me how time changes things. 1000 years ago, they were some of the fiercest people on Earth. Now a days, they're like bunny rabbits.

www.eclectech.co.uk
 
2011-07-23 08:32:07 AM

Bit'O'Gristle: From what i just heard on NPR, they said the worse they could do is give the guy 21 years. Then he's free.


Not quite. As mentioned earlier in this thread, they have a kind of reverse-parole called Forvaring, where near the end of your sentence, the state can argue that your crime was particularly heinous and you're likely to do it again. If successful, it adds another 5 years to your sentence. And then when those are almost up, they can do it again, over and over.
 
2011-07-23 08:33:52 AM

Dadoody: I just don't see why a State needs to house, feed, and give free medical care to a scumbag like this for the rest of his natural life. The Chinese would do a fast and cheap execution and send the bill for the ammunition to the guy's family.


Yeah Norway, why aren't you more like everyone's favourite country, China?
 
2011-07-23 08:35:35 AM
Eighty kids? Dear god, I hadn't heard that yet. How horrible.
 
2011-07-23 08:36:03 AM
I look forward to increased scrutiny of all white people by law enforcement.
 
2011-07-23 08:36:23 AM

Dadoody: Norway's got the most "humane" prison system in the world, so he'll probably live the rest of his life well fed and cared for.


Perhaps the US should send over some Republicans to destroy the Norwegian economy.
 
2011-07-23 08:36:29 AM
I'll still take my chances with Cristains any day... At least I can make a Jesus joke and not be stoned to death in the town square.
 
2011-07-23 08:37:37 AM

Porous Horace: Diarrhea Anne Frank: Porous Horace: Soiled Underwear: [i485.photobucket.com image 640x245]

Planking - Norwegian style.
Meh. Some look like half-arsed attempts.

/too soon?

Yes. But you should feel f*cking awesome, because nobody on the internet was as cool as you at that moment. I bet sunglasses appeared on your face so fast that you were catapulted through a wall. I bet your hair went vertical so fast that you flew through a ceiling. Totally lol, Bro, because f*ck those other people that aren't us, am I right? DOUCHEBAG HIGH FIVE!!!

That means so much, coming from from a person who's screen name is about shyt and Anne Frank. I made one comment but your screen name appears very often.

Lololol! Anne Frank - hahaha! She hid in fear and was eventually found and executed. all because she was a Jew! Great funny stuff, man. Let's add shyt to the mix - brilliant! Cuz shytting all over dead Jews is hysterical. You are the king.


Sigh. I really think that getting the username has an IQ prerequisite. Sorry, but I hope that if you had any siblings, they were successful; Just thinking about your parents, here. It's not often that a birth counts as a loss.

Now that I think of it, that kid who looks like he's begging for his life was probably just asking for an end to all the ridiculous planking. He was like "Couldn't we do some owling instead?" And Anders was all like "ORLY? Memes, mutherfarker, do you speak them? Boom - headshot!"

Okay. Maybe you need to update from the whole "I can haz cheezburger" way of thinking. It's not doing you any favours and it is apparent that you need several, from people more well versed in the intricate workings of the mind than I am. Perhaps you can sit in the gutter outside of a research lab, and if you look sad enough, they will take you in? It's worth a try. I offer this suggestion in the spirit of conciliation; I hope that one day you can move on from Lolcats and into the brave world of the written word, and from there - who knows? Could thought be far behind? But perhaps, pal o' mine, empathy is not far beyond. Reach for the stars, because if you fail, you will still be left grasping the moon. My moon. My arse. Stick your nose right up in there, and when you vomit it'll be the smartest thing that'll ever come out of your face.
 
2011-07-23 08:39:07 AM
I bet all the idiot libtards are going to be spent after this thread runs it's course.
pic.phyrefile.com
 
2011-07-23 08:39:21 AM

Toriko: This article has a bit more information about how he killed the kids.



Whoa.

There are not enough drugs/shrinks on the planet to deal with the psychological trauma the survivors are going to face.

Whoa.
 
2011-07-23 08:40:02 AM

bikkurikun: As for the rest, for those people (so not including me) who indeed did assume at first that it was Muslims, again I would like to ask you, how is that strange, and more importantly, how is that equal to hating all Muslims and stereotyping them (also a word which you should look up in a dictionary, since you are using it wrong)?

What is the last major bombing or political murder in western Europe that wasn't done by Muslim extremists? We've had major bombings in England, Spain, a murder in Holland, death threats in Denmark, and several failed/prevented attacks, all by Muslim extremists. Isn't it therefore entirely understable (I don't say it's right, but understable) that people's first thought would be that it is another one of this occassions? And again, even if one would assume it, does that automatically make him a hater thing of all things Islamic?


I think "assume" may be the wrong word, but certainly "suspect". I can only think of one other case of a Christian using a car bomb, while it's not all that uncommon for Islamic extremists to use them.

If this had been an abortion clinic though I think a lot of people here screaming "bigot" would assume it was a Christian extremist. I probably would have too.
 
2011-07-23 08:40:23 AM
religion of forgiveness strikes again
 
2011-07-23 08:40:31 AM

WhyteRaven74: relcec: would it surprise you that in absolute terms we have less poverty in America than in France

And yet we have poor people of a type you can't find in Europe. In Europe you might be poor, but you'll have a good roof over your head, you'll have food and have medical care and a bunch more. In the US if you can't work due to disability the government benefit could leave you below the poverty line. Also that graph assumes the poverty as absolute across the board, which it isn't. Just because someone in Germany was earning less than 40% of the median income of an American, doesn't mean they're living in the same conditions as an American earning as much.


Also, the US has a population of around 300 million, therefore 8% of that means that your poor number in excess of 5 times the entire population of countries like the Republic of Ireland.

/just saying
 
2011-07-23 08:40:41 AM

hardinparamedic: relcec: jso2897: relcec: jso2897: relcec: jso2897: fusillade762: Wonder how long before the Freepers claim he's an undercover Muslim trying to make right-wing Christians look bad?

They'll do a "McVeigh" on him. Even though little Timmy was born and raised an Xtian, and put it on every form he filled out, he told one reporter that he was an "agnostic" - so the Xtians pronounced him an "atheist".
They'll find a way to "no true Scotsman" this guy too.


In the letters to his hometown paper, McVeigh reiterated that what he did was necessary to defend the personal freedom of all Americans and exact revenge for the disastrous government raids at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas. ..

McVeigh, who grew up in nearby Pendleton, N.Y., wrote the News that he might have chosen another tactic for expressing his hatred of the government. He said he sometimes wishes he had carried out a series of assassinations against police and government officials instead.

In the letters, McVeigh insisted he has no fear of his execution. An agnostic, he said he will "improvise, adapt and overcome" if it turns out that there is an afterlife

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93140&page=1 (new window)

Right - so after a lifetime as a Xtian, he magically became "not one" - how convenient. And I'm sure the same spin will be put on this guy.
Why not? God didn't mean for that "don't bear false witness" stuff to apply when you're defending the faith, after all.


Right, so McVeigh was f*cking with the agnostics by pretending to be one of them when he gave his pre-execution confessionals? you know, you're as bad as the those freaks that see mooslim terrorists around every corner. you're pathetic.

That's exactly my point. Get it, now?
It's time to quit pretending that terrorism comes from Islam, or the left, or the right, or any particular ideology. It is a potential with ALL of them.
My remarks were addresses to the same people who were in here yelling about "religion of peace" twenty-four hours ago, and are now bleating for "fairness".

no, several times now you have denied that McVeigh was an agnostic and also claimed that there was some type of christian conspiracy to push the myth that he wasn't christian. you brought this bullshiat up. no one was even talking about it until you opened your fat mouth about it. you are just as bad as all those bigots you abhor. now just shut the f*ck up about it, jackass.

Fun fact: McVeigh recieved the catholic sacrement and last rites before riding the Pentobarb.

http://articles.cnn.com/2001-06-11/justice/mcveigh.03_1_timothy-mcveigh-first-f e deral-execution-mcveigh-attorney?_s=PM:LAW


But you keep right on with that But-but-but....AGNOSTIC gambit.


I bet he'll be back after an hour of frantic googling, with a wall of text and cut 'n paste. All in the futile attempt to prove that the monster was not "one of our boys" - it would be funny if it did not reveal a dangerous misunderstanding of what terrorism is, and where it comes from. All this spinning, only to support the idea that one's own belief system is somehow exempt from evil.
But I can understand it - it would be comforting if terrorism was really some dark foreigner in a turban - he can be externalized, and set apart from our selves.
The real truth is that the terrorist is us. It's a human problem.
 
m00
2011-07-23 08:41:02 AM

Wyalt Derp: epoc_tnac: From Fox news: Authorities search for more victims in capital bombing and youth camp shooting rampage that killed at least 91 - carried out by a lone attacker identified as Anders Behring Breivik, reportedly with no ties to Islamic terrorism.

Now that's how you frame a discussion in your favour. Instead of saying "reportedly with ties to far-right extremists", you say "well normally it would be the muzzies".


Well, yes - in the Fox worldview, terrorism is Islamic by default, and occasions where it isn't are the exceptions that prove the rule.


But they both are framing the discussion. I'll go off my meta-troll-mode for a second here, and say that it's incredibly sad that the American discussion about this tragedy is in terms of whether he was a Christian right-winger vs terrorist extremist. As if these terms carry remotely the same connotation anywhere else in the world outside the US. The truth is that this individual's political leanings probably don't "fit" into any convenient American peg. I was trying to be somewhat subtle about this point back in my original post, but only one or two people seemed to comprehend what I was saying.

A christian right-winger in Norway is something completely different than a christian right-winger in the US. For one, despite being a "right-winger" he probably agrees with universal healthcare and fully funded pension schemes. Also, I think Norway is fairly pro-Palestinian when it comes to the I/P conflict and somewhat sympathetic to Arab national movements that the US brands as terrorism. So basically due to the ideological particulars of the country, we can't really use this for any sort of larger commentary in the "red v blue" gotcha game which has overtaken American politics. The only thing this thread has demonstrated with any certainty is the self-centered and insular nature of US political commentary, which cannot conceive of a situation where an important world even occurs that has absolutely nothing to do with the USA and the arbitrary labels we apply to the political sphere.

And as I said, this guy clearly has Democrat leanings.
 
2011-07-23 08:41:44 AM

Heron: Magorn: Toriko: This article has a bit more information about how he killed the kids.

I hate Monday morning quarterbacking in situations like this, but I'll never understand how a single gunman racks up a body count like this. At Some point don't his victims realize that if they gang up and charge him, he'll get some of them, but not all of them before they get to him? It seems like you've a much greater chance of survival running TOWARDS a guy like this en masse than you do trying to outrun a rifle bullet.

The Roman legions each only numbered 1000 men, and rarely would an entire legion be deployed for a single battle, even when they were facing upwards of 5000 enemies. In violent situations, morale and discipline are everything. One disciplined, unafraid man with plenty of ammunition and a good eye, attack unarmed targets in mass from ambush while disguised as a figure of authority would cause absolute havoc, confusion, and healthy amounts of fear. Once the targets are "broken" and run, it's just a matter of him walking around, shooting them in the back.


Multiply that legion number by six, but otherwise you're correct. Four legions was considered sufficient to beat three or four times their number of barbarians, and six legions could take on over 100,000 if they had to. Gaius Marius defeated a force of 120,000 Germans at Aquae Sextae with six legions plus cavalry and auxiliaries, a force three times his size, with fewer than 1,000 casualties. Nearly all the Germans were killed in the fighting, except for about 20,000 captives. And that was without firearms.
 
2011-07-23 08:41:48 AM

Bit'O'Gristle: From what i just heard on NPR, they said the worse they could do is give the guy 21 years. Then he's free.


Read the farking thread.
 
2011-07-23 08:41:57 AM

Bit'O'Gristle: From what i just heard on NPR, they said the worse they could do is give the guy 21 years. Then he's free.


I've heard that before, but I think they have mechanisms in place for a life sentence if need be (heck, they might be able to pass a law to authorize such a sentence). Even if they don't, I've got a feeling someone who shot up a children's camp isn't going to be popular in prison...

He might last 2 weeks before a guard or other inmate kills him in "self defense".
 
2011-07-23 08:42:27 AM
Anybody got any links of Christians dancing in the streets with their Bibles, celebrating the actions of this guy.
 
2011-07-23 08:43:12 AM

alwaysjaded: This story gets more and more horrible. I wonder if we're looking at what would happen here in America if the general public adopted the true idea of freedom of religion. I have nothing against the believers that just make Christ a part of their lives, but it's these farking crazies that think they're in some "war of religious oppression" that keep me up at night. The "one religion" types I'm surrounded by here in Texas are concerning. I'll admit, a lot of my friends don't give two shiats I'm an atheist and they're Christians, but the way this country has become lately, I'm worried we will start seeing a lot of "Christians with a message from up high mission" that tells them to kill 100 people just because a Democrat is still the president.


As an atheist in the U.S. I share that concern. But reality says it does not happen often. Groups that might do this kind of thing are rare and usually very quiet. The KKK were the worst christian terrorists in U.S. history, AFAIK, and they have been destroyed as a group.

But that does not mean it can't happen. And in places with very insular christian communities, it is more prone to happen. Cases of social and religious bullying, using government to accomplish this are not uncommon. There have bee court cases over such things, even some brought by minority christian sects against towns and schools run by majority christians that bully the smaller groups.

Laws mean nothing if people are not brave enough to stand up for their rights, and stand up against the unjust bullying that may be using the law as a weapon.

Heck there are still provisions in state constitutions barring atheists from holding office. Pennsylvania section 4 (new window).
 
2011-07-23 08:43:17 AM
Dadoody: they were some of the fiercest people on Earth

Yeah, about that. Almost all the accounts of them beating people to a pulp are third hand accounts that have been found to be utter rubbish. The Vikings, which included not only Norwegians but Swedes and Danes, spent far more time trading, than they ever did conquering. Indeed the Vikings who went east into Russia, and then headed south encountering Moscow and Kiev and eventually making it to Constantinople, never really did any fighting of any kind. All they did provide the Russians with their first written law code. They got to the Russians and when they discovered they had no written law code, the Vikings basically stared in disbelief. So they put one together. Oh and once the Vikings got to Constantinople? They worked as guards on the city walls, in the employ of a very Muslim emperor. Those Vikings who went east towards England and France? Sure they did some battling, but they were certainly no more ruthless than the armies of the time, and indeed were less ruthless than a good number of them. And it wasn't like they tore through a place and left in ruins. They settled lots of places. It's why there's a Normandy in France. Norman after all is short of Nord-Man or in English North-Man, it's what the locals called Vikings when they showed up. And across the continent quite a few Vikings ended up working as mercenaries.

Course the really interesting thing about the Vikings is that they were literate. The average Viking could read and write, the average soldier in Europe at the time was illiterate, as was, most likely, his commanding officer, and even perhaps his commander. And not only were the Viking men pretty awesome, the women were too. After all when an entire village was emptied of able bodied adult men, that left the women to farm, fish, hunt, build, run the local government etc. And yeah they were literate too.
 
2011-07-23 08:43:45 AM

jesterodoom: I'll still take my chances with Cristains any day... At least I can make a Jesus joke and not be stoned to death in the town square.


Yeah? Give that a try in rural Tennessee, Alabama or Texas, tell me how it works out for you.
 
2011-07-23 08:44:34 AM
what would jesus do?

kill 80 kids
 
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