FARK.com: (6370816) In Switzerland, education doesn't have its own national ministry or department. No wonder those morans can only speak three languages fluently

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(University World News)		In Switzerland, education doesn't have its own national ministry or department. No wonder those morans can only speak three languages fluently (universityworldnews.com)		134
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urban.derelict		2011-07-10 08:11:45 AM

I hope one of them is English.

/ba weep grana weep ninnyBONG

phrawgh		2011-07-10 08:15:48 AM

Surely they have standardized tests and cultural, racial, and sexual awareness classes!

Crosshair		2011-07-10 08:18:32 AM

In the US we didn't have one until 1979, yet we managed to put men on the moon and become the greatest industrial power on Earth at the time.

Since we got the DoE we still have stagnant test scores and continue to have ballooning costs. It has had no effect at all, but costs billions per year. Yet getting rid of the department is somehow off the table.

www.redstatereport.com

billybobtoo		2011-07-10 08:20:22 AM

That's because even though it's a postage stamp sized country, they have like four distinct languages for different districts.
But their trains run on time, so there's that!

TommyBahama		2011-07-10 08:20:25 AM

in the cities a lot of them speak some broken English, every few speak German and French and almost no one speaks their third official language. From my understanding the 3rd language is for the mountain folk who don't mingle well with others. In Geneva, where something like 40% of the people living there are foreigners, you can get by with English.

miss diminutive		2011-07-10 08:20:55 AM

They also allow assisted suicide. Add that to the chocolate, cheese, army knives and watches and I'd say they have a pretty decent cottage industry over there.

volsung3		2011-07-10 08:27:19 AM

Reminds me of that episode of Yes, Prime Minister:

Humphrey: Abolish Education and Science?
Hacker: I'm only abolishing the department. Education and Science will flourish.
Humphrey: Without a government department? Impossible!

Friskya		2011-07-10 08:31:26 AM

I believe that in their educational system, the money follows the student. The parents decide which school they feel can best educate the child, notifies the government which school was chosen and the money is then sent to that school.

So the schools are forced to compete for the students, resulting in better education all around.

Unlike the USA, where the student is forced to follow the money, with government deciding which school your child will attend. Transported across town, if necessary, to ensure everyone receives an equally shoddy education.

/or, I could be talking out of my ass
//above disclaimer for the benefit of fark libruls™

jaytkay		2011-07-10 08:31:50 AM

They have government education bureaucracy.

It's in the Interior Ministry and they are moving it to the Economic Ministry.

/ Apparently I read at the 99% percentile compared to you farkers

Vast and Trunkless		2011-07-10 08:32:59 AM

And they require every male citizen to know how to use an assault rifle and keep one at home in working order.

Link (new window)

The US's educational problem is partly one of perception, and partly one of culture. Neither of those have solutions in a bureaucracy.

tomWright		2011-07-10 08:34:18 AM

(new window)

Part of the problem is well layed out in this documentary about local school politics and budgets.
And it is NOT about religion or right wing home schooling.

sethstorm		2011-07-10 08:35:55 AM

In before someone quotes the flawed PISA tests, which let more than a few countries cherrypick who took that test.

tomWright		2011-07-10 08:40:22 AM

Friskya: I believe that in their educational system, the money follows the student. The parents decide which school they feel can best educate the child, notifies the government which school was chosen and the money is then sent to that school.

So the schools are forced to compete for the students, resulting in better education all around.

Unlike the USA, where the student is forced to follow the money, with government deciding which school your child will attend. Transported across town, if necessary, to ensure everyone receives an equally shoddy education.

/or, I could be talking out of my ass
//above disclaimer for the benefit of fark libruls™

Essentially this.

These are the arguments behind the school choice movement.

In the current system, if a school is failing, politicians, bureaucrats and unions fight over how to fix it. In the meantime, student are graduated with substandard education, if they are lucky. This fighting goes on for years and decades, while generations of students are tossed out on the streets to whatever future they can find for themselves.

Charter schools, open enrollment, tax credits for private tuition, vouchers are all part of the solution.

Public schools are not the problem.
Locking kids and parents into a monopolistic situation, with no choice in the matter, is the problem.

Hey, if monopolies are bad in other places, why are the good in education?

Loki-L		2011-07-10 08:48:27 AM

There is a lot to be said about the swiss system of government, mostly observations in an awed voice that it works at all let alone as well as it does. The sad truth is probably that none of the positive aspects could be successfully imported elsewhere without inviting the host of negatives that the Swiss barely seem to escape. My favorite example of this is the fact that their legendary direct democracy led to them not fully giving their women equal voting rights until 1991. One can only imagine what this sort of setup would lead to under less stable circumstances.

Vast and Trunkless		2011-07-10 08:49:53 AM

Online book written by an award-winning teacher who got on the wrong side of the system. (new window)

sethstorm		2011-07-10 08:50:56 AM

tomWright: Essentially this.

These are the arguments behind the school choice movement.

In the current system, if a school is failing, politicians, bureaucrats and unions fight over how to fix it. In the meantime, student are graduated with substandard education, if they are lucky. This fighting goes on for years and decades, while generations of students are tossed out on the streets to whatever future they can find for themselves.

Charter schools, open enrollment, tax credits for private tuition, vouchers are all part of the solution.

Only if the private/charter schools perform for all. Otherwise they become a political weapon(charter schools in Ohio) or a way to reward patronage(various exclusivist schools).

Second, the private schools cannot simply be a bastion for those who have connections or ability to pay above the voucher amount. The students (and their parents) choose the school, not the other way around.

/Went to a very good public school
//Approximates a private school in quality, and is doing even better than in my time
///Yes, it's got unions.

saugoof		2011-07-10 08:53:21 AM

Friskya: I believe that in their educational system, the money follows the student. The parents decide which school they feel can best educate the child, notifies the government which school was chosen and the money is then sent to that school.

No, sorry but that's complete rubbish. Well it's not a complete fabrication, the school receives funding for each student. But your interpretation tries to fit that into an ideology that does not reflect reality at all. Schools are almost exclusively state-run with only a handful of private schools. There is no competition for students, you go to whichever school happens to be closest and because they all run under the same system, it basically makes no difference as to which school you go. Funding for students is used to cover the costs to educate that student. Fewer students simply means less funding, but also no less expenditure.

In a "funny" reversal of how things work in the US, private schools are mainly seen as a haven for kids who couldn't hack it in the public school system. That's because at the end of year 6 every student gets to do a standardised test that decides whether they'll end up going to a school that focuses on science and higher learning and allows you to eventually go to university, or whether they'll end up in a school that focuses on allowing you to learn a trade later on. The private schools don't have this division, which means that often kids who fail that test (and thus would have to go to the lower "trade" school) end up in private schools as a way to bypass this.

saugoof		2011-07-10 08:57:54 AM

saugoof: but also no less expenditure.
Sorry, that's meant to say "but als less expenditure"

/did my first 9 years of school in Switzerland.
//obviously didn't save me from making typos...

UCFRoadWarrior		2011-07-10 08:58:01 AM

Rufus Lee King: I can speak French! e.g. : "Cut the grass" = "Meaux de laune".

Hey....thats New Orleans Saints/LSU Tigers French...thats not real French

Gough		2011-07-10 08:58:43 AM

GORDON		2011-07-10 09:00:00 AM

Everyone knows that the more money the government throws at them, the smarter the kids get.

Also, I had a public education.

DistendedPendulusFrenulum		2011-07-10 09:02:57 AM

FTA:
"
Underlying their concern is the fear that business associations, such as the lobby group Economiesuisse, could get "their" ministry to step up pressure on scientists to concentrate on research whose results can be speedily brought to market."

Well, that's a whole different premise, now isn't it, stubby?

.

HaywoodJablonski		2011-07-10 09:03:16 AM

Switzerland has a population of 9 million and a GDP of 500 billion, impressively beating out New Jersey in both categories.

Rock on, Switzerland

jedihirsch		2011-07-10 09:04:37 AM

TommyBahama: in the cities a lot of them speak some broken English, every few speak German and French and almost no one speaks their third official language. From my understanding the 3rd language is for the mountain folk who don't mingle well with others. In Geneva, where something like 40% of the people living there are foreigners, you can get by with English.

In the French Cantons they speak French and German, In the Italian Cantons they speak Italian and German, some even speak French, In the German Cantons they speak German and usually English.

When You say no one speaks the Third official language, that one is Italian, which is common spoken. What you meant was Romansh, the fourth language, which is spoken by less than 1%, but the language is close enough to both Italian and French that if you know both you can understand some Romansh, enough to carry a broken conversation.

Besides the Federal Dept of Ed interferes with the states and causes more problems in the education system. Leave education up to the states the way the Swiss leave it up to each of the cantons.

moof		2011-07-10 09:05:04 AM

I don't know if "fluently" is the word that first springs to mind when hearing the Swiss weather report.

granulorhoek		2011-07-10 09:10:41 AM

Everybody knows a car runs best when you spend no money on it!

tomWright		2011-07-10 09:11:30 AM

sethstorm:
Charter schools, open enrollment, tax credits for private tuition, vouchers are all part of the solution.

Only if the private/charter schools perform for all. Otherwise they become a political weapon(charter schools in Ohio) or a way to reward patronage(various exclusivist schools).

Second, the private schools cannot simply be a bastion for those who have connections or ability to pay above the voucher amount. The students (and their parents) choose the school, not the other way around.

/Went to a very good public school
//Approximates a private school in quality, and is doing even better than in my time
///Yes, it's got unions.

Well, charter schools are public schools, and where I am in the NYC area, charter schools in NY and in NJ are required to accept students using a lottery system. So they get pretty much the same spectrum of students as the public schools. Other than students who have absolutely no one to care enough for them to apply. I do not know anything about how charter schools were implemented in Ohio so I can not speak to that.

Watch the documentary I posted above, it is streaming on Netflix and maybe other places. It is very good and not doctrinaire in favor of any solution.

So far as private schools go, yes, there are issues there. Sweden, the UK and other places that subsidize education in non-government schools have found they are subsidizing radical Islamic Madrassas that are teaching the overthrow of the government and imposition of Sharia.

I could see a problem like that in the U.S., with the addition of radical Christians and Mormons into that mix. And others. Imagine a Chancellor Bachmann running a school, or Principle Palin. (shudder). Of Headmaster Frank, for that matter.

That could easily get messy if it was not done right. Certainly any schools would have to be accredited and a minimum core curriculum required, and their criteria for admission would need to be objective. Though they should be permitted some discretion. What lines they could draw, and where would be an important discussion. Certainly no religious based schools would be acceptable under our Constitution. But I could see conservative religious parents choosing schools that do not have the more liberal agendas many public schools now have. (extra credit for attending political rallies? oy ...) And I can see liberal parents choosing schools with a more progressive curriculum.

But those parents are likely to be only 5-10% at the radical end of each spectrum. I would imagine that 80-90% or parents would choose a school based on how good it was and how it prepared their kids for real life, maybe based on what they or the kid wanted as a career.

Skail		2011-07-10 09:15:20 AM

I'm sure it's probably been said, but it probably helps that they're a relatively small country surrounded by other countries and languages, some of which are at least somewhat similar. That kind of stuff seeps in.

UCFRoadWarrior		2011-07-10 09:15:53 AM

The US school problem is a bloated bureaucracy...and that is never addressed by Dems or GOP. The GOP is especially troubling...since their ideas are basically "fire all the teachers" but never the bureaucracy that continues their bad ways.

Whenever someone whines "Teachers Unions, evil", they have no clue on how to fix schools.

Or, standardized testing on everyone and everything. Testing just adds more bloat to the bureaucracy.

I am conservative, yet, the GOP is just as big guvmint Socialist on education as the Dems are....they just want their Socialist education instead of the Dems version

The GOP will never end the Dept of Education....not when GW Bush and Ted Kennedy got "No Child Left Behind" passed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

You really want to fix schools...here is what you do:

Immediately fire half of all administrators and Edu-Crats. Cut the salaries of the remaining ones....they are your biggest single expense in most schools

Limit immigration from countries that do not value education. There is a reason why Asian kids do well, and why other people do not....they take education seriously (include deport all illegals here)

Do not build a new school unless you have the money to staff it (this happens way too much)

Dump the "politically correct classes"...the "Timmy Has Two Mommies" classes...during the regular school day. If funds available offer them in after school hours

Dump physical education....keep recess. Kids need a break in the school day

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Congrats to the Swiss....they have a better handling of education than the US does

NewportBarGuy		2011-07-10 09:16:19 AM

If you love America so much, why are you comparing it to Switzerland?

Friskya		2011-07-10 09:22:49 AM

saugoof: saugoof: but also no less expenditure.
Sorry, that's meant to say "but also less expenditure"

/did my first 9 years of school in Switzerland.
//obviously didn't save me from making typos...

Twice, even!

Always good to hear from someone who has the first-hand experience with the system involved. Appreciate the clarifications on how the system worked when you were attending.

Do you know if it still works the same way? Just curious.

Yoyo		2011-07-10 09:23:21 AM

Regas		2011-07-10 09:23:47 AM

Don't be so gloomy. After all, it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace - and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude		2011-07-10 09:23:50 AM

TommyBahama: in the cities a lot of them speak some broken English, every few speak German and French and almost no one speaks their third official language. From my understanding the 3rd language is for the mountain folk who don't mingle well with others. In Geneva, where something like 40% of the people living there are foreigners, you can get by with English.

No.

As far as first languages go, an overwhelming majority of Swiss speak German (something like 65-70%), another large portion French (15-20%) , and then a mishmash of Italian or Romansh (with Romansh dying more and more). The order in which Swiss speak these languages depends on their proximity to the respective origin countries (France, Germany, Italy.....Romansh is just tard-speak).

Now, the "German" dialect they speak day-to-day is some hellish dialect dreamed up by listening to a retarded baboon fart into a tuba, but it's still classified as "German" (barely). Swiss-German is the day-to day spoken language. Official documents and most literature is written in Swiss Standard German (SSG). The only difference is the spelling of some words and other tiny things. Kind of like the difference between British English and American English (color vs colour, the hospital vs. hospital, etc).

Chris4549		2011-07-10 09:23:56 AM

I've had exchange students from Germany and Switzerland. Each spoke 4 languages fluently.

Education is taken a lot more seriously. One distinct thing that is I think works is that basically around middle school they take all the smart kids and group them together and put them on the fast track with great teachers and into college programs (and of course the colleges are highly subsidized). Those kids the education they deserve because it's not catered to the lowest common denominator. And it helps knowing that your taxes are going to, basically, smart kids that will be able to do something with it.

Everybody else gets the vocation school treatment. Which is okay - the world needs ditch diggers, too.

The more you eat the more you fart		2011-07-10 09:25:36 AM

Swedish biatches are hot.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude		2011-07-10 09:28:13 AM

Yoyo: Italian is the 3rd official language of Switzerland. The one most people don't speak is actually their 4th official language. And not everyone there speaks French, German, and Italian. It can be a bit of a problem in their army. Fortunately for me, the Swiss soldiers I deal with all speak English, the language of NATO (which they're not even a part of).

Nowadays a lot of young Swiss adults only speak 2. German/Swiss-German and either French, Italian or English. You don't see nearly as many fluent in 3 languages as people seem to assume. And damn near everyone speaks or at least understands German. The only time you find adults under 40 that don't speak German is when you get to the towns that are right on the border with France/Italy.

/lots of Swiss relatives

stonelotus		2011-07-10 09:28:16 AM

Languages needed is typically a matter of proximity and necessity.

I can assure you that when I lived in the panhandle of Florida I could understand and speak fluent Alabamian, Mississippian, Georgian, as well as English.

advex101		2011-07-10 09:29:51 AM

We also have a talk radio culture that seems to believe that educated = elitist. People who have been educated are suspect, Mao would be proud.

bookman		2011-07-10 09:30:41 AM

Crosshair: In the US we didn't have one until 1979, yet we managed to put men on the moon and become the greatest industrial power on Earth at the time.

Since we got the DoE we still have stagnant test scores and continue to have ballooning costs. It has had no effect at all, but costs billions per year. Yet getting rid of the department is somehow off the table.

[www.redstatereport.com image 500x368]

You sound racist, fascist and stupid.

/just kidding, but I wanted to get it in before the ~~Libtards~~ RCLs did.

BitwiseShift		2011-07-10 09:31:57 AM

Cunning linguists in Switzerland can speak 5 languages: Swiss German, French, Italian, Romansch, and English. Cunning Linguists can even yodel.. Yay Cunning Linguists!

bookman		2011-07-10 09:34:43 AM

tomWright: Friskya: I believe that in their educational system, the money follows the student. The parents decide which school they feel can best educate the child, notifies the government which school was chosen and the money is then sent to that school.

So the schools are forced to compete for the students, resulting in better education all around.

Unlike the USA, where the student is forced to follow the money, with government deciding which school your child will attend. Transported across town, if necessary, to ensure everyone receives an equally shoddy education.

/or, I could be talking out of my ass
//above disclaimer for the benefit of fark libruls™

Essentially this.

These are the arguments behind the school choice movement.

In the current system, if a school is failing, politicians, bureaucrats and unions fight over how to fix it. In the meantime, student are graduated with substandard education, if they are lucky. This fighting goes on for years and decades, while generations of students are tossed out on the streets to whatever future they can find for themselves.

Charter schools, open enrollment, tax credits for private tuition, vouchers are all part of the solution.

Public schools are not the problem.
Locking kids and parents into a monopolistic situation, with no choice in the matter, is the problem.

Hey, if monopolies are bad in other places, why are the good in education?

Thank you.

Whiskey Priest		2011-07-10 09:37:53 AM

They're also great chefs

jedihirsch		2011-07-10 09:40:38 AM

sethstorm: tomWright: Essentially this.

These are the arguments behind the school choice movement.

In the current system, if a school is failing, politicians, bureaucrats and unions fight over how to fix it. In the meantime, student are graduated with substandard education, if they are lucky. This fighting goes on for years and decades, while generations of students are tossed out on the streets to whatever future they can find for themselves.

Charter schools, open enrollment, tax credits for private tuition, vouchers are all part of the solution.

Only if the private/charter schools perform for all. Otherwise they become a political weapon(charter schools in Ohio) or a way to reward patronage(various exclusivist schools).

Second, the private schools cannot simply be a bastion for those who have connections or ability to pay above the voucher amount. The students (and their parents) choose the school, not the other way around.

/Went to a very good public school
//Approximates a private school in quality, and is doing even better than in my time
///Yes, it's got unions.

Voucher people call for 6k voucher. some Catholic School in NYC coat only 6500 a year (some cost more but the diocese has said that if there was a voucher system they would create more of the low cost schools), Quaker schools in NYC cost more but they always offer discounts. SO a 6K voucher would be great and good for all students. and these schools perform on average 20% higher on grades than the public schools in the same areas. We're not talking about elite academies, just regular private schools
Look at the trial DC voucher system and it was a success, so successful the Unions got the pols to cut the funding for it. Forcing thousands of poor black kids into a subpar public school. And voucher worked well for poor black in New Orleans. Only the wealthy neighborhoods have good public schools. Look at the NYC system. all the worst schools are in the poorest neighborhoods and the best are in the wealthiest. Vouchers would level the playing field and give poor kids a chance. Just watch the vids below, (I know its biased but the point is still there)

Link (new window)
Link (new window)
Link (new window)
Link (new window)
Link (new window)
Link (new window)
School voucher work for poor kids because most Parochial schools are cheap and poor minorities will get a better education. Not all private schools are the expensive elite academies. I went to a private High School when I went there (2002-2006) it was 6600 a year. We had AP's offered and we averaged 85.5 on the math regents and 89 on the English regents. There are many affordable private school, if the poor can supplement it with a voucher. And the Supreme court ruled years ago that government education voucher (GI Bill) can be used for divinity schools, so this would fall under the previous ruling so there is no legal issue with voucher going to a parochial school. Besides the Quaker Schools don't have any religious classes and are purely secular.

There are many countries with voucher systems and it works well there and when its been tried in the US its worked out well the overwhelming majority of the time. Vouchers will help poor kids get a good education

markfara		2011-07-10 09:50:18 AM

advex101: We also have a talk radio culture that seems to believe that educated = elitist. People who have been educated are suspect, Mao would be proud.

That's kind of the elephant in the room as pertains to education in the U.S. It really doesn't matter how we set things up, until our culture gets over its contempt education/intelligence, the kids aren't going to want to learn.

/Cuz, you know, they got that thar "common sense."

cheesegobbler		2011-07-10 09:53:01 AM

Education is taken a lot more seriously. One distinct thing that is I think works is that basically around middle school they take all the smart kids and group them together and put them on the fast track with great teachers and into college programs (and of course the colleges are highly subsidized). Those kids the education they deserve because it's not catered to the lowest common denominator. And it helps knowing that your taxes are going to, basically, smart kids that will be able to do something with it.

Everybody else gets the vocation school treatment. Which is okay - the world needs ditch diggers, too.

This would be a great start, along with dissolving the DOE.

Also, here in FL, charter/private schools can determine who attends. If they don't have a program for a student they basically tell that student to go elsehwere. Public schools do not have that option. No matter who walks through the door they have to be given a free, appropriate public education. If that particular school doesn't have the program, the district has to bus that kid to a school that does.

Despite this, public schools do as well as, if not better, than charter schools. I don't really remember how they compare to private schools, I'll have to go check that out.

saugoof		2011-07-10 09:56:38 AM

Friskya: saugoof: saugoof: but also no less expenditure.
Sorry, that's meant to say "but also less expenditure"

/did my first 9 years of school in Switzerland.
//obviously didn't save me from making typos...

Twice, even!

Always good to hear from someone who has the first-hand experience with the system involved. Appreciate the clarifications on how the system worked when you were attending.

Do you know if it still works the same way? Just curious.

Oops, well English is my third language after all ;)

Schools mostly still work the same way. There have been a few changes in an attempt to standardise the school curriculum across the country. Like someone else said, the cantons (essentially states) actually run the schools rather than the federal government and it used to be very disjointed. When I started school there wasn't even a standard school year with half the country starting school in spring, the other half in autumn. These days there are not really that many differences between the states anymore. Makes moving much less of a hassle.

Personally (having attended schools and universities in three countries, Switzerland, the US and Australia) I reckon the Swiss model definitely comes out on top of those three. Part of that is by having the government actually focusing on providing quality education, not just as an election platform but by actually spending a decent amount ofLink (new window) resources on providing it. But one other major difference that I found is the mentality. In Switzerland being smart is not seen as "uncool" the way it is in the US or Australia. Kids in Switzerland don't like going to school anymore than US kids do, but you're not automatically a nerd or smartarse if you actually get good grades. I think that instinctively, even though kids there hate school too, they have much more of a sense that this is actually something that is good for you.

chu2dogg		2011-07-10 10:06:00 AM

Chris4549: One distinct thing that is I think works is that basically around middle school they take all the smart kids and group them together and put them on the fast track with great teachers and into college programs (and of course the colleges are highly subsidized). Those kids the education they deserve because it's not catered to the lowest common denominator. And it helps knowing that your taxes are going to, basically, smart kids that will be able to do something with it.

Would never work here. All it takes to shelve that idea is one crybaby screaming "racism!". Now imagine several million crybabies.

/and most of them are white.

lucksi		2011-07-10 10:09:43 AM

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude:
Nowadays a lot of young Swiss adults only speak 2. German/Swiss-German and either French, Italian or English.

German and Swiss-German are already two languages in my book.

Witchydiva		2011-07-10 10:15:41 AM

In Switzerland learning french, so I'm getting a kick...

Lausanne is gorgeous, but the only people that speak English here (that I've run into) are students. Most young adults speak some, and older adults don't seem to speak any. That said, if you go to the other side of Lac Leman (Lake Geneva) to Geneva, pretty much _everyone_ understands and speaks decent English. A lot of the job postings I've been looking at require "Fluent English or French, and good working knowledge of the other".

/CSB

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