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(PhysOrg.com)   Apple yanks app that wasn't bringing people much oy   (physorg.com) divider line 56
    More: Followup, Apple Inc., information minister  
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5747 clicks; posted to Geek » on 23 Jun 2011 at 10:58 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-06-23 11:02:29 AM
Imagine if the guy that made that app dedicated his time and skills towards improving the lives of those in the Palestinian territories directly.

But then, no Jew-blaming would be involved, and we know the Arab world has a big thing about hanging all of their problems on the Jews.

/Christian, with Jewish girlfriend in the room.
 
2011-06-23 11:06:59 AM

Marine1: But then, no Jew-blaming would be involved, and we know the Arab world has a big thing about hanging all of their problems on the Jews.


Then the app would be complaining against Jews, not Israel.

Marine1: Imagine if the guy that made that app dedicated his time and skills towards improving the lives of those in the Palestinian territories directly.


That's actually a pretty good idea.
 
2011-06-23 11:08:39 AM

corronchilejano: Marine1: But then, no Jew-blaming would be involved, and we know the Arab world has a big thing about hanging all of their problems on the Jews.

Then the app would be complaining against Jews, not Israel.


Problem is, to a lot of people in the Arab world, there is no real difference.
 
2011-06-23 11:13:19 AM

Marine1: Problem is, to a lot of people in the Arab world, there is no real difference.


Tell that to the poor Israeli muslims, and christians that the bombs fall on ... Im sure they will be happy to know its just the Jews and not the occupation force and the idiotic Settlers (Land was promised to me by G-D) that are being targeted..
 
2011-06-23 11:13:23 AM

Marine1: Problem is, to a lot of people in the Arab world, there is no real difference.


[citation needed]

No, seriously, this isn't anti semitism. You'd have to be living under a rock to not see the clash between Israel and the palestinians. Anti-"zionism" is incidental in this case.

It's not "You don't have the right to exist", it's more along the lines of "Stop killing me and GTFO".
 
2011-06-23 11:14:07 AM
Maybe some of the oil gods in the region could scale back their mall sized homes and ensure the poor in the region have some peace.
 
2011-06-23 11:18:49 AM
Marine1:
Problem is, to a lot of people in the Arab world, there is no real difference.

Not only no real difference, but necessarily the same, in every respect. Even the less-nutty folks running things over there will shift smoothly between anti-Israel and anti-Jewish ranting - they often link the two inextricably. As in "as long as there are Jews still alive, the fight for Palestine will not be over." Nasty stuff.
 
2011-06-23 11:22:05 AM

s2s2s2: Maybe some of the oil gods in the region could scale back their mall sized homes and ensure the poor in the region have some peace.


Wouldn't that be soshulizum!!!!
 
2011-06-23 11:26:30 AM

corronchilejano: Marine1: Problem is, to a lot of people in the Arab world, there is no real difference.

[citation needed]

No, seriously, this isn't anti semitism. You'd have to be living under a rock to not see the clash between Israel and the palestinians. Anti-"zionism" is incidental in this case.

It's not "You don't have the right to exist", it's more along the lines of "Stop killing me and GTFO".


Mahmoud Amnedinnerjacket is a pretty clear case of this.
 
2011-06-23 11:29:00 AM

corronchilejano: Marine1: Problem is, to a lot of people in the Arab world, there is no real difference.

[citation needed]

No, seriously, this isn't anti semitism. You'd have to be living under a rock to not see the clash between Israel and the palestinians. Anti-"zionism" is incidental in this case.

It's not "You don't have the right to exist", it's more along the lines of "Stop killing me and GTFO".


Ummm, while the latter is sure to be true in cases; Both sides at this point have unclean hands. The former IS still true for a large swathes of the people involved.

I mean, a whole bunch of the political groups (or terrorist organization) [or groups that are both depending on who you ask] do base their philosophy on Israel not having a right to exist. Hamas has recently started to hedge on this, because of the Arab Spring, but their line has always been that Israel has no right to exist, and they're not alone.

There is no citation needed. You can wiki that OBVIOUS bit of well known fact your damned self.

Saying citation needed to such BS sometimes. When people say wild and crazy stuff, sure, ask them where the got that from. But for obvious things? Axiomatic things? Truisms? You can keep your snark.

Hopefully the Arab Spring leads to the sort of CULTURAL revolution that the Arab world so desperately needs to become progressive and modern.... something that hasn't been true since the fall of Qwarzm... unfortunately. But democracy =! tolerance, modernity, or what have you. Often conflated though they may be.

Until the idea that violence will not win this struggle is appropriated by all involved, there won't be peace. It didn't take tens of thousands of terrorists to get tens of thousands of troops to be shipped into Afghanistan. Such a majority needs to accept that, until a bombing in Israel would be equally disquieting to BOTH people's. I think peace would follow rapidly. Until then...

/shrug
//I'm backing the country where it isn't legal to honor kill women, beat them, mutilate them, or what have you. Low bar, right?
 
2011-06-23 11:32:01 AM
Saudi King Abdul Aziz, Mahmoud Amahdinajad, and every other Middle Eastern leader each periodically have the same nightmare: Israel no longer existing. If that were to happen, they would have no one else to blame for their own greed and incompetance.
 
2011-06-23 11:34:35 AM
Good.
 
2011-06-23 11:46:12 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2011-06-23 11:49:16 AM
Wouldn't the app have brought much oy? As in "oy, what a bunch of schmucks" or "oy gevalt!", or "oy the tzuris this app causes"?
 
2011-06-23 11:51:28 AM

Researcher: I mean, a whole bunch of the political groups (or terrorist organization) [or groups that are both depending on who you ask] do base their philosophy on Israel not having a right to exist.


I never said there was no anti-israelism, I just said it was incidental. Arabs don't hate Jews in general, they hate Zionism, aka "Israel has a right, a GOD given right to be HERE". If it was more than just Israel, then their hate would spread to jews all over the world, and that just doesn't happen.

I don't think anti-zionism is correct, and this war has become pretty complex with time, but kicking people away from their own land because "god said so" makes it pretty hard to justify a Jewish State, which is why Israel was created (doesn't hold as true now since Israel doesn't only have jews).

Researcher: There is no citation needed. You can wiki that OBVIOUS bit of well known fact your damned self.

Saying citation needed to such BS sometimes. When people say wild and crazy stuff, sure, ask them where the got that from. But for obvious things? Axiomatic things? Truisms? You can keep your snark.


Didn't mean that post to be snarky, that's why I posted it first and then explained my point. Sorry for that.

Researcher: Hopefully the Arab Spring leads to the sort of CULTURAL revolution that the Arab world so desperately needs to become progressive and modern.... something that hasn't been true since the fall of Qwarzm... unfortunately. But democracy =! tolerance, modernity, or what have you. Often conflated though they may be.

Until the idea that violence will not win this struggle is appropriated by all involved, there won't be peace. It didn't take tens of thousands of terrorists to get tens of thousands of troops to be shipped into Afghanistan. Such a majority needs to accept that, until a bombing in Israel would be equally disquieting to BOTH people's. I think peace would follow rapidly. Until then...


That applies to more than just arab culture.

Researcher: /shrug
//I'm backing the country where it isn't legal to honor kill women, beat them, mutilate them, or what have you. Low bar, right?


Well, it's hard to pick a side when one beats the other into submission while the other retaliates and both have completely different points of view than your own. The world isn't simple.
 
2011-06-23 12:30:28 PM

corronchilejano: Arabs don't hate Jews in general, they hate Zionism, aka "Israel has a right, a GOD given right to be HERE". If it was more than just Israel, then their hate would spread to jews all over the world, and that just doesn't happen.


You ever lived in the ME?

corronchilejano: I don't think anti-zionism is correct, and this war has become pretty complex with time, but kicking people away from their own land because "god said so" makes it pretty hard to justify a Jewish State, which is why Israel was created (doesn't hold as true now since Israel doesn't only have jews).


Israel was created when they declared independence in 48. They didn't kick anyone out of their home for that. They did that to defend themselves from a multi nation army invading them for being a jewish state.

There are plenty of critiques you can make about Israel but being against it in 48 is nothing more than anti-semetism.
 
2011-06-23 12:33:08 PM

Fabric_Man: Saudi King Abdul Aziz, Mahmoud Amahdinajad, and every other Middle Eastern leader each periodically have the same nightmare: Israel no longer existing. If that were to happen, they would have no one else to blame for their own greed and incompetance.


They would just blame the next closest Non-Muslim target: India.

/their hate is not based on any actual grievance, and so will continue forever on imaginary ones
 
2011-06-23 12:46:40 PM
apartheid is apartheid. Could there be a non-jewish president in Israel?
 
2011-06-23 12:50:34 PM
Those gosh-darn black Africans, why are they always going about being violent towards the Afrikaners?


/literally the same situation
//Israel is pretty reprehensible w/r/t treating Palestinians like human beings
///White phosphorous hurts y'all
 
2011-06-23 12:51:39 PM

corronchilejano: I never said there was no anti-israelism, I just said it was incidental. Arabs don't hate Jews in general, they hate Zionism, aka "Israel has a right, a GOD given right to be HERE". If it was more than just Israel, then their hate would spread to jews all over the world, and that just doesn't happen.


Nonsense. Their propaganda is about Jews, not Israel. Do you honestly think that Muslims loved the Jews until '48? If so, I have a bridge to sell you. You should look into the history of WWII as one example or the times of the crusades. Muslim leadership has railed against Jews for hundreds of years, long before a state of Israel.

I don't think anti-zionism is correct, and this war has become pretty complex with time, but kicking people away from their own land because "god said so" makes it pretty hard to justify a Jewish State, which is why Israel was created (doesn't hold as true now since Israel doesn't only have jews).

You have some pretty funny definitions of words. "Their own land" is an interesting one, considering that Jews have been in what is now Israel fairly consistently since 1000 years before Muhammad was born. "Kicking people away" is another, considering the 1.5m Arabs who live in Israel today, largely peacefully and with full rights and representation. People who left in '48 did so largely by choice, because they were sure that the Arabs would win the war and they'd get their land back.
 
2011-06-23 12:57:08 PM

advex101: apartheid is apartheid. Could there be a non-jewish president in Israel?


Comments like this demonstrate such stark ignorance it's hard to know where to begin. Muslims in Israel get full voting rights, and have several representatives in Knesset (Parliament). They also get freedom of speech, assembly, press, and the right to hold any public office they want (rights unmatched in most of the region, especially for women, but I digress). Fun fact: the percentage of Jews in Israel is about the same as the percentage of Christians in the USA. The likelihood of a non-Jewish PM in Israel is about the same as the likelihood of a non-Christian president in the US. Isn't it funny that in a democracy the heads of state tend to represent the majority of the population?
 
2011-06-23 01:06:31 PM

advex101: apartheid is apartheid. Could there be a non-jewish president in Israel?


Apaetheid is forcing some group of citizens to a secodn class lifestyle.
 
2011-06-23 01:09:43 PM

Ziploc'd Oreos: Those gosh-darn black Africans, why are they always going about being violent towards the Afrikaners?


/literally the same situation


So black africans during apartheid had a vote that was equal to Afrikaners?
Cause muslim Israeli citizens do.

Just one of the myriad of ways it isn't "literally the same situation".
 
2011-06-23 01:10:38 PM

liam76: advex101: apartheid is apartheid. Could there be a non-jewish president in Israel?

Apaetheid is forcing some group of citizens to a secodn class lifestyle.


So what are you saying? It's ok as long as Israel doesn't allow any non-jews to become citizens?
 
2011-06-23 01:21:10 PM

Mattyb710: liam76: advex101: apartheid is apartheid. Could there be a non-jewish president in Israel?

Apaetheid is forcing some group of citizens to a secodn class lifestyle.

So what are you saying? It's ok as long as Israel doesn't allow any non-jews to become citizens?


I am saying it isn't apartheid.

Israel does allow non-jews to becoem citizens, some 20% of their population are muslim arabs.

Be against the occupation, but don't pretend it is apartheid, genocide, or any other BS you want to call it.
 
2011-06-23 01:21:54 PM
They try to manage the size of the muslim population to prevent the status quo from ever changing. This is why the Palestinians are denied a right of return that the jews consider to be a basic right. A state cannot be based on religion or race and hope to survive long term.
 
2011-06-23 01:27:58 PM

Mattyb710: liam76: advex101: apartheid is apartheid. Could there be a non-jewish president in Israel?

Apaetheid is forcing some group of citizens to a secodn class lifestyle.

So what are you saying? It's ok as long as Israel doesn't allow any non-jews to become citizens?


WTF are you talking about? 24% of Israeli citizens are non-Jews (the same percentage as non-Christian Americans, btw). They have full rights, much more full than they have in neighboring countries, especially the women.

Arabs make up 20% of the Israeli population. The Israeli Knesset has 120 seats, 14 (12%) currently held by Arabs.
Blacks and Hispanics make up 30% of the US population. The US has 535 total seats in Congress, 66 (12%) currently held by African Americans or Hispanics.

So is the US guilty of apartheid as well? If not, what's the difference?
 
2011-06-23 01:30:04 PM
On the contrary, it's bringing people lots of oy.

advex101: They try to manage the size of the muslim population to prevent the status quo from ever changing. This is why the Palestinians are denied a right of return that the jews consider to be a basic right. A state cannot be based on religion or race and hope to survive long term.


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Oh wait, you're serious. You realize you just rang the death knell of every Muslim country in the word, don't you?
 
2011-06-23 01:31:30 PM

liam76: There are plenty of critiques you can make about Israel but being against it in 48 is nothing more than anti-semetism.


I'm not saying anything against their creation in 48, I'm talking about their current situation, pretty much expanding their territory all over the place. Of course they had resistance, and there where more wars, and they won, so, like I said, it's a pretty complicated situation.

oren0: Nonsense. Their propaganda is about Jews, not Israel. Do you honestly think that Muslims loved the Jews until '48? If so, I have a bridge to sell you. You should look into the history of WWII as one example or the times of the crusades. Muslim leadership has railed against Jews for hundreds of years, long before a state of Israel.


I'm not really sure about that. Muslims, jews and christians share quite a bit of religious history and had quite a bit of respect for each other (ok, so maybe christians had LESS respect for the other two religions, specially muslims) before the 19th century. See People of the book for more info about that. The old Testament pretty much spread all over the place.

oren0: "Kicking people away" is another, considering the 1.5m Arabs who live in Israel today, largely peacefully and with full rights and representation


I only speak for palestinians. Again, notice I spoke about arabs living with no problems in Israel? It's not like there's hate against those, but you can't deny Israeli settlements and expansion.
 
2011-06-23 01:32:10 PM

advex101: They try to manage the size of the muslim population to prevent the status quo from ever changing. This is why the Palestinians are denied a right of return that the jews consider to be a basic right. A state cannot be based on religion or race and hope to survive long term.


The idea that someone could leave a country, and then four generations later all of their descendents would be allowed to return, is unprecedented anywhere else in the world. Do the descendents Jews who left Teheran or Baghdad generations ago have the right to return? The Palestinians can largely trace their lineage back to Jordan or Syria, where is the clamoring for their right to return to those countries (hint: the Jordanians and Syrians don't want them)? When/if the Palestinians get their own state, that will the place that all Palestinians will have the right to return to. If you fight for a state for your people, that's where your people get to go.
 
2011-06-23 01:42:23 PM
oy?

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2011-06-23 01:43:52 PM

corronchilejano: oren0: Nonsense. Their propaganda is about Jews, not Israel. Do you honestly think that Muslims loved the Jews until '48? If so, I have a bridge to sell you. You should look into the history of WWII as one example or the times of the crusades. Muslim leadership has railed against Jews for hundreds of years, long before a state of Israel.

I'm not really sure about that. Muslims, jews and christians share quite a bit of religious history and had quite a bit of respect for each other (ok, so maybe christians had LESS respect for the other two religions, specially muslims) before the 19th century. See People of the book for more info about that. The old Testament pretty much spread all over the place.


I'll read your Wikipedia article if you read mine (new window). The history between Jews and Muslims has been a long and complex one, but it was hostile long before the establishment of Israel.

corronchilejano: oren0: "Kicking people away" is another, considering the 1.5m Arabs who live in Israel today, largely peacefully and with full rights and representation

I only speak for palestinians. Again, notice I spoke about arabs living with no problems in Israel? It's not like there's hate against those, but you can't deny Israeli settlements and expansion.


Your initial statement was unclear, I was referring to the oft-made and untrue suggestion that in '48 Arabs were "kicked out" en masse from "their land" in Israel. I agree that Israeli settlement policy is a problem, but in reality it's a minor one in the scheme of things. The Palestinians need self-governance, and they lost their best chance in a generation at that at Camp David in 2000. What's sad is that the Palestinian people are being used as pawns by their own leaders and neighboring governments, who have every interest in keeping the current conflict going rather than moving towards a resolution.
 
2011-06-23 01:48:22 PM

Researcher: Hopefully the Arab Spring leads to the sort of CULTURAL revolution that the Arab world so desperately needs to become progressive and modern.... something that hasn't been true since the fall of Qwarzm... unfortunately. But democracy =! tolerance, modernity, or what have you. Often conflated though they may be.


I think it is more likely to make things even worse. Lok at Egypt: there was a hard-line dictator in charge, but he could be bribed into making a peace treaty. The Muslim Brotherhood's candidate is calling for war against Israel.

Out with the evil bastards; in with the other evil bastards!
 
2011-06-23 01:54:55 PM

oren0: The idea that someone could leave a country, and then four generations later all of their descendents would be allowed to return, is unprecedented anywhere else in the world.


How about same generation? Is that acceptable?

One generation removed? How about that?
 
2011-06-23 01:59:20 PM

oren0: What's sad is that the Palestinian people are being used as pawns by their own leaders and neighboring governments, who have every interest in keeping the current conflict going rather than moving towards a resolution.


Which is why apps like these don't work. Now, one that tries to bring palestinians together is a whole different story.
 
2011-06-23 02:12:33 PM

oren0: Mattyb710: liam76: advex101: apartheid is apartheid. Could there be a non-jewish president in Israel?

Apaetheid is forcing some group of citizens to a secodn class lifestyle.

So what are you saying? It's ok as long as Israel doesn't allow any non-jews to become citizens?

WTF are you talking about? 24% of Israeli citizens are non-Jews (the same percentage as non-Christian Americans, btw). They have full rights, much more full than they have in neighboring countries, especially the women.

Arabs make up 20% of the Israeli population. The Israeli Knesset has 120 seats, 14 (12%) currently held by Arabs.
Blacks and Hispanics make up 30% of the US population. The US has 535 total seats in Congress, 66 (12%) currently held by African Americans or Hispanics.

So is the US guilty of apartheid as well? If not, what's the difference?


What? I never said they aren't citizens. I was asking if liam76 was saying it's not apartheid because they aren't citizens. I thought maybe he didn't know they were citizens. Because they sure as hell are being relegated to "2nd class citizen" status. I'm not going to list all the ways, you can read the wiki page on it for yourself. Link (new window)
 
2011-06-23 02:28:38 PM

Mattyb710: Because they sure as hell are being relegated to "2nd class citizen" status. I'm not going to list all the ways, you can read the wiki page on it for yourself. Link (new window)


There are bigots everywhere, but that doesn't mean it's institutional. Would you agree that Arab women in Israel have more rights than they do in Saudi Arabia or Syria? Arabs in Israel are treated far better than Jews have been historically treated under Muslim rule, and anyone who denies this is delusional. It's fine to hold Israel to a higher standard, but drawing a moral equivalence is ridiculous.
 
2011-06-23 02:35:39 PM

ryarger: oren0: The idea that someone could leave a country, and then four generations later all of their descendents would be allowed to return, is unprecedented anywhere else in the world.

How about same generation? Is that acceptable?

One generation removed? How about that?


Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with anyone who was born in what is now Israel claiming citizenship for themselves. But where do you draw the line? At this point, we're largely talking about grandchildren and great-grandchildren who have never stepped foot in Israel. Nobody is asking for the 80-year olds to go back, because what this is really about is forming a majority in the country to take advantage of its democracy.

The analogy would be for the Mexican government to demand that any Mexican citizen who can trace an ancestor back to Texas or California when those lands were Mexican should be granted US citizenship, even if they've never been here. We'd say hell no, because the Mexicans have their own state now to be citizens of. And when the Palestinians have their own state (this entire issue is always in the context of those negotiations) those people will have their own homeland as well.
 
2011-06-23 02:38:37 PM
No blood for oyil?
 
2011-06-23 03:02:08 PM

Mattyb710: What? I never said they aren't citizens. I was asking if liam76 was saying it's not apartheid because they aren't citizens. I thought maybe he didn't know they were citizens. Because they sure as hell are being relegated to "2nd class citizen" status. I'm not going to list all the ways, you can read the wiki page on it for yourself. Link (new window


Yes there is discrimination.

But you see the same type in the US, Canada, most countries in Europe, and even more so in every single muslims country in the world.

so if that is the bar you set for "apartheid" fine, but recognize it is everywhere.

corronchilejano: I'm not saying anything against their creation in 48, I'm talking about their current situation, pretty much expanding their territory all over the place. Of course they had resistance, and there where more wars, and they won, so, like I said, it's a pretty complicated situation.


And I wouldn't call you an anti-semite. I was just trying to illustrate how some critiques against Israel are largely rooted in anti-semeitism, but I agree that there are many that don't.
 
2011-06-23 03:04:30 PM

corronchilejano: Researcher: I mean, a whole bunch of the political groups (or terrorist organization) [or groups that are both depending on who you ask] do base their philosophy on Israel not having a right to exist.

I never said there was no anti-israelism, I just said it was incidental. Arabs don't hate Jews in general, they hate Zionism, aka "Israel has a right, a GOD given right to be HERE". If it was more than just Israel, then their hate would spread to jews all over the world, and that just doesn't happen.

I don't think anti-zionism is correct, and this war has become pretty complex with time, but kicking people away from their own land because "god said so" makes it pretty hard to justify a Jewish State, which is why Israel was created (doesn't hold as true now since Israel doesn't only have jews).

Researcher: There is no citation needed. You can wiki that OBVIOUS bit of well known fact your damned self.

Saying citation needed to such BS sometimes. When people say wild and crazy stuff, sure, ask them where the got that from. But for obvious things? Axiomatic things? Truisms? You can keep your snark.

Didn't mean that post to be snarky, that's why I posted it first and then explained my point. Sorry for that.

Researcher: Hopefully the Arab Spring leads to the sort of CULTURAL revolution that the Arab world so desperately needs to become progressive and modern.... something that hasn't been true since the fall of Qwarzm... unfortunately. But democracy =! tolerance, modernity, or what have you. Often conflated though they may be.

Until the idea that violence will not win this struggle is appropriated by all involved, there won't be peace. It didn't take tens of thousands of terrorists to get tens of thousands of troops to be shipped into Afghanistan. Such a majority needs to accept that, until a bombing in Israel would be equally disquieting to BOTH people's. I think peace would follow rapidly. Until then...

That applies to more than just arab culture.

Researcher: /shrug
//I'm backing the country where it isn't legal to honor kill women, beat them, mutilate them, or what have you. Low bar, right?

Well, it's hard to pick a side when one beats the other into submission while the other retaliates and both have completely different points of view than your own. The world isn't simple.


Oh come on, are you honestly saying there aren't terrorist attacks against jewish targets all over the world? So bombings of synagogues in the rest of the middle east and north africa is just........... a coincidence? Please. That's just silly.

As to my point about getting past violence, yes, everyone needs to work towards that goal.

As to choosing sides? No, it isn't difficult. The way muslim's treat their women is reprehensible. Plain and simple. Saudi Arabia, a benighted land full of savagery will have me not calling them savages when they stop cutting the hands off thieves, or stoning rape victims.

If YOU have ANY difficulty accepting that, or rejecting what I just mentioned above, you have some serious problems, FAR beyond politics and nations warring.

Also, for point of trivia I side with Taiwan, I side wherever there is a progressive democracy surrounded by it's enemies. South Korea, etc. Don't think for a second I'm seeking to conflate issues, there is no conflation, it's the same issue. You have to back the countries with the values you believe in and try and fix, condemn, sanction, rebuild, educate, or what have you the one's who haven't quite caught on.

If we abandon sight of that, in light of some twisted multicultural nonsense, there'd still be widows thrown on pyres in India.

Some things ARE simple.
 
2011-06-23 03:08:26 PM

MagusMcCormick: oy?


*clap*

or should I say *lap*
 
2011-06-23 03:20:12 PM

oren0: There are bigots everywhere, but that doesn't mean it's institutional. Would you agree that Arab women in Israel have more rights than they do in Saudi Arabia or Syria? Arabs in Israel are treated far better than Jews have been historically treated under Muslim rule, and anyone who denies this is delusional. It's fine to hold Israel to a higher standard, but drawing a moral equivalence is ridiculous.


liam76: Yes there is discrimination.

But you see the same type in the US, Canada, most countries in Europe, and even more so in every single muslims country in the world.

so if that is the bar you set for "apartheid" fine, but recognize it is everywhere.



Wow. So basically since it happens in other places we should look the other way when it happens in Israel too? You guys are absolutely insane.
 
2011-06-23 03:25:39 PM

Mattyb710: Wow. So basically since it happens in other places we should look the other way when it happens in Israel too? You guys are absolutely insane


Wow. You are going to ignore my point about discrimination not equaling apartheid and pretend I said discrimination in Israel is ok? You are absolutley an idiot.

I wonder if scroll through any of the threads about Iran or Egypt (where discrimination against religious minorities is much worse) if I would find you crying "apartheid". I wonder why you have that double standard against Israel.
 
2011-06-23 03:49:42 PM
Israel needs to be prosecuted, just like G.W. Bush for their worldwide "crimes against humanity".


/Israel murders people for their land
//Commits piracy and murder in international waters
///Keeps a republican blockade up for pain and suffering of their neighbors
////Israel even releases the stuxnet virus on Iran and then Israel tries to get the U.S. to nuke Iran, just because.
//what is the difference between actions of Israel for 40+ years and the German third reich? Not too much anymore(other than the Nazi mass slaughter of a people, but Iran is a people too, right? And Israel wants Iran deleted).
//Quit butchering foreskins in the name of religion.
 
2011-06-23 03:57:14 PM

clambam: On the contrary, it's bringing people lots of oy.

advex101: They try to manage the size of the muslim population to prevent the status quo from ever changing. This is why the Palestinians are denied a right of return that the jews consider to be a basic right. A state cannot be based on religion or race and hope to survive long term.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Oh wait, you're serious. You realize you just rang the death knell of every Muslim country in the word, don't you?


I'm stating that it is wrong no matter what state does it.
 
2011-06-23 04:00:27 PM

liam76: Mattyb710: Wow. So basically since it happens in other places we should look the other way when it happens in Israel too? You guys are absolutely insane

Wow. You are going to ignore my point about discrimination not equaling apartheid and pretend I said discrimination in Israel is ok? You are absolutley an idiot.

I wonder if scroll through any of the threads about Iran or Egypt (where discrimination against religious minorities is much worse) if I would find you crying "apartheid". I wonder why you have that double standard against Israel.


Wow, you are amazing. You manage to assign an opinion to me and then bash me for that opinion. What's that called again? Something like a strawman? You are awesome.

Is Israel as bad as South Africa (which pretty much invented the word apartheid)? No.
Is there apartheid in muslim countries? Hell yes.
Is it considered taboo to speak ill of those countries? Hell no.
But speak one wrong word about Israel and it's a big deal.
So who really has the double standard?

Oh, and just so we are clear. Here's exactly what you posted.

liam76: Yes there is discrimination.

But you see the same type in the US, Canada, most countries in Europe, and even more so in every single muslims country in the world.

so if that is the bar you set for "apartheid" fine, but recognize it is everywhere.


That is defending the discrimination in Israel that you state happens, because it happens "even more so in every single muslims country in the world."

You actually posted that. That's not me setting up a strawman like you did.

And it's not just me who thinks apartheid happens in Israel. United Nations investigators have said it also. Link (new window)

So if you want to continue to argue semantics and the definiton of apartheid go ahead and write a letter to the U.N.
 
2011-06-23 04:20:24 PM

Mattyb710: That is defending the discrimination in Israel that you state happens, because it happens "even more so in every single muslims country in the world."

You actually posted that. That's not me setting up a strawman like you did.

And it's not just me who thinks apartheid happens in Israel. United Nations investigators have said it also. Link (new window)

So if you want to continue to argue semantics and the definiton of apartheid go ahead and write a letter to the U.N.


You're missing the point on multiple levels. Criticize Israel if you want, but do so in proper context. Where is the outrage for atrocities that are far worse happening elsewhere in the region? Many attempt to draw a moral equivalence between the two sides of this conflict (worse, some even paint Israel as the "bad guys"), when really there is none. Neither side is perfect, but one side has clearly demonstrated far more regard for basic human rights than the other, and to call out only the Israelis while ignoring the record of the other side makes your argument seem disingenuous. Do you deny that Arab women in Israel have more rights and freedoms than Arab women in Saudi Arabia? If not, why are you coming down on the Israeli treatment of Arabs but not on the Saudi treatment of women?

As for the apartheid business, there is a difference between individual racists and institutional racism. Apartheid refers to a system where citizens are assigned different sets of rights based on race. That doesn't exist in Israel. If this were about race, rather than geography, Arabs in Israel wouldn't be treated so well. And I don't give a crap what the UN says, about this or anything else.
 
2011-06-23 05:06:55 PM

oren0: Mattyb710: That is defending the discrimination in Israel that you state happens, because it happens "even more so in every single muslims country in the world."

You actually posted that. That's not me setting up a strawman like you did.

And it's not just me who thinks apartheid happens in Israel. United Nations investigators have said it also. Link (new window)

So if you want to continue to argue semantics and the definiton of apartheid go ahead and write a letter to the U.N.

You're missing the point on multiple levels. Criticize Israel if you want, but do so in proper context. Where is the outrage for atrocities that are far worse happening elsewhere in the region? Many attempt to draw a moral equivalence between the two sides of this conflict (worse, some even paint Israel as the "bad guys"), when really there is none. Neither side is perfect, but one side has clearly demonstrated far more regard for basic human rights than the other, and to call out only the Israelis while ignoring the record of the other side makes your argument seem disingenuous. Do you deny that Arab women in Israel have more rights and freedoms than Arab women in Saudi Arabia? If not, why are you coming down on the Israeli treatment of Arabs but not on the Saudi treatment of women?

As for the apartheid business, there is a difference between individual racists and institutional racism. Apartheid refers to a system where citizens are assigned different sets of rights based on race. That doesn't exist in Israel. If this were about race, rather than geography, Arabs in Israel wouldn't be treated so well. And I don't give a crap what the UN says, about this or anything else.


Here's the single fact that makes your entire post absolute rubbish. There is "outrage for atrocities that are far worse happening elsewhere in the region". It's all over the news, and all around you.

Simply stating Israel is the lesser of two evils doesn't mean they aren't evil. Because Israel treats arab women like house pets instead of cattle that makes it wrong to criticize Israel? Saudi Arabia does incredibly horrible things so we shouldn't care when Israel does bad things? I'm not coming down on the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia because it has even less to do with the topic of this thread than Israel does to be honest. Furthermore, I shouldn't have to criticize every country, group, faction, person, or animal that has done something wrong every time I choose to acknowledge that Israel is not an innocent victim.

Again your argument seems to be that since Saudi Arabia treats women like shiat, I shouldn't be criticizing Israel for poor treatment of arabs.
My argument is there shouldn't be this huge social stigma that accompanies speaking the truth about Israel.

Also, you are completely wrong about muslim arabs and jews being treated exactly the same in Israel. If you choose to ignore the proof already presented I'm not going to bother posting more. You don't give a crap what the UN investigators say? Why exactly?
 
2011-06-23 05:30:42 PM
There is an app in the android store right now called, 'Jew for Jesus, Points for Converting Jews.'
 
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