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(Comics Alliance)   Dilbert creator Scott Adams says that rape is a "natural male instinct"   (comicsalliance.com) divider line 382
    More: Sick, parting shot, bloodbath, instincts, dong, wankers, pseudonyms  
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11469 clicks; posted to Geek » on 17 Jun 2011 at 2:52 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-06-17 01:42:29 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: medanzig: Knara: There's no "don't rape people!" gene in our DNA


how do you know that?
Ducks keep a mate for their entire life.

You obviously have never observed 4 or 5 male ducks daily raping a female duck for weeks.

She may have a mate for life but she is constantly being raped by other male ducks.


Ducks are weird animals and notorious rapists. The sexes are basically engaged in an "arms race" in their genitals. The female duck's reproductive tract twists in a corkscrew way and contains numerous dead ends to thwart rapist ducks. The males have evolved long and increasingly corkscrew-shaped penises to try and deal with the defenses of the females. It's one of the weirdest evolutions in the animal kingdom.

And that's more than you probably ever wanted to know.
 
2011-06-17 01:44:35 PM
www.scvhistory.com

We can choose not to kill/rape today!!
 
2011-06-17 01:45:55 PM

johnnyq: Grote-Man: Is Scott Adams the new Dave Sim?

Ceiling Moran: This is similar to Dave Sim's downward spiral.

Came for the Dave Sim comparison, leaving satisfied.


Had to look up who Dave Sim is. Interesting comparison.
 
2011-06-17 01:46:02 PM

medanzig: I've never considered raping anyone, I guess I'm not an animal.


No, that just means you've been properly trained by society not to desire raping anybody - as you grew up, you picked up on the social ques that doing so wasn't right - much like shiatting in public, masturbating in public, spitting and hitting people -- all things thought to you as a kid, is unacceptable behavior. As a society - we do our best to teach our children to mimic the rules of society as taught to by us. Society changes NOT by the people who mimic their parents, but by the people who say "fark off why my parents taught me - this shiat needs to change." Civil rights, woman rights are recent examples of such societal changes. Some time ago, most members of society decided that rape was a negative instinct/drive and started to punish people who did, and enforce social rules that made the desire to rape (all and any rape) bad - which continues today in MOST societies; yet there are some where rape is still valued as a weapon to be used.
Lets not also forget that some societies still today purposefully allow and encourage the killing of your offspring if they do something that may offend the family name. Remember the same people above who said "fark off why my parents taught me - this shiat needs to change." Those cultures would rather you kill them, then allow them to start some societal change.

But knowing why people rape doesn't make those people rapist apologist, they just make them aware of how some humans think and operate.
 
2011-06-17 01:52:34 PM

SnakeMan: Humans don't have instincts.


According to current neurological research we do.

Trackball: Aren't we all just chemical reactions?


Yup. "The self" is a lie the brain tacks on to decisions already made by instinctive physiology.
 
2011-06-17 01:58:36 PM

PlannedChaos: Pinksprite: PlannedChaos: Very few of the people here understand what Scott is trying to say.

Hey Scott.

Break it down for us.

Read the entire blog post. It's pretty clear from the posts here that most people on this forum lack reading comprehension skills.

The man's a certified genius. If you think he's full of shiat, then you've probably not fully comprehended his points. Do yourself a favor and read it again.


I sincerely hope you're just some Fark schmuck playing around as a sockpuppet for Scott Adams, because if this is Scott Adams, well, this kind of trolling stupidity is a hell of a way to can a career.
 
2011-06-17 02:01:16 PM
This whole thing sounds like a ridiculous cry for help. Dilbert never gets laid, I assume Dilbert is Scott. Maybe the reason Scott/Dilbert has an unhappy love life is because he is condescending to supposedly inferior intellegensia. Dilbert needs to watch South Park's episode "You're Getting Old", realize he's a cynical d-bag and nicen up so he can feel love.
 
2011-06-17 02:05:57 PM

medanzig: If you were to take some kids and have them live lord of the flies style, I think they'd die.


Some would live, some would die. That's how nature works.

medanzig: Speculate all you want how you think it's natural to rape people but you know that's not a healthy mode of thinking.


I'm not sure why you would think it was unhealthy to think about such things from an anthropological standpoint. You gotta learn to judge things empirically and objectively, not emotionally.

medanzig: Maybe there's a damn good reason we have social constructs. It's so annoying how people insult society so often without looking at what good it's done, like give birth to your dumb ass.


You seem to think that recognizing the natural way that humans instinctively operate is the same thing as thinking it is the optimal way for a society to work. Perhaps that's because Americans (and westerners in general) believe that "it's natural" should mean "its right". Polio is natural, but detrimental to orderly society, as well.

Rape orderly society more difficult, it is certainly true, and that's why we discourage it (in more developed countries, at least).
 
2011-06-17 02:09:45 PM

Pinksprite: Knara: As for the folks who are like "I'm a guy, I've never wanted to rape anyone!", that's kind of the point. Our society, by and large, attempts to socialize out the animal instincts inherent in our existence as humans. But that socialization is an artificial, arbitrary construct. There's no "don't rape people!" gene in our DNA as males or females. It's simply a (beneficial for social order) artificial construct that (most) cultures have agreed on.

So when you want to rape a woman, how do you control that impulse? Or do you?


As with the majority of other folks in my culture, when I have the urge to have sex with a female human, my urge is tempered by my social conditioning as instilled by my parents and peers (not to mention my self-discovered reasonings on behavior, either through reading/learning or past experience).

Same as you do.

See, the thing is, much of what we say "makes us human" is social construct. It's something we've created ourselves, but isn't, necessarily, the way we would act sans that society.

Natural is not necessarily "good". "Good" is not necessarily natural.
 
2011-06-17 02:14:56 PM

medanzig: TheShavingofOccam123: medanzig: Knara: There's no "don't rape people!" gene in our DNA


how do you know that?
Ducks keep a mate for their entire life.

You obviously have never observed 4 or 5 male ducks daily raping a female duck for weeks.

She may have a mate for life but she is constantly being raped by other male ducks.


O man, yep you're right. I just looked that up. doh! anyways, social constructs can be good things. Moral relativity exists but, come on! Really? "Ducks do it, so I can too!"? Maybe that's not you're point here but it sure sounds like it and all you lonely rape fiends need to cut the shiat. I know you're not getting laid and all but maybe if you try and talk to the decent looking girl who maybe isn't a jerk and who really digs you, you might get some and not have to argue about the virtues of rape.


I'm not arguing about the virtues of rape. I'm too busy looking for a convincing duck costume.

/Is standing in the middle of a lake with a small painted wooden duck on my head conspicuous?
 
2011-06-17 02:15:57 PM
Did anyone else check out the comments posted in his actual blog post? No wonder this biatch is nuts. He has nutty people enabling his nutty viewpoints. Fruit loopy and coo coo for cocoa puffs. I'd really hate to be a female in not only Adams' family but his fans and defenders as well. Methinks they're so keen on rape because it's the only way they're ever going to breed.
 
2011-06-17 02:16:07 PM

FormlessOne: PlannedChaos: Pinksprite: PlannedChaos: Very few of the people here understand what Scott is trying to say.

Hey Scott.

Break it down for us.

Read the entire blog post. It's pretty clear from the posts here that most people on this forum lack reading comprehension skills.

The man's a certified genius. If you think he's full of shiat, then you've probably not fully comprehended his points. Do yourself a favor and read it again.

I sincerely hope you're just some Fark schmuck playing around as a sockpuppet for Scott Adams, because if this is Scott Adams, well, this kind of trolling stupidity is a hell of a way to can a career.


What sockpuppet? What makes you think I'm Scott Adams? The guy's a certified genius. He wouldn't have a sockpuppet.
 
2011-06-17 02:19:27 PM
www.disarm.se
 
2011-06-17 02:22:47 PM

Babwa Wawa:
What sockpuppet? What makes you think I'm Scott Adams? The guy's a certified genius. He wouldn't have a sockpuppet.


And most "certifed" genius are bat shiat crazy when it comes to talking about socital rules and norms. I get what he is trying to saying - but a genius should know that no matter how smart you are, somethings are just left unsaid.
 
2011-06-17 02:23:15 PM

jaylectricity: He's right, but we're a civilized species and we don't act on our natures without consent...


And yet this thread went on for another 310 posts
 
2011-06-17 02:26:32 PM

jaylectricity: Confabulat: God this guy is such a prick. No, actually, Scott, I like women to enjoy my advances. It's sort of a turn-off otherwise, you psycho pervert.

I think you're misunderstanding the circumstances of this "rape" thing. We're not talking about forcing a girl to have sex with you even though she doesn't want to because you have cottage cheese thighs.

We're talking about how the male species would normally just have sex with the girl without having to play games with her, she'd just let you because that's what sluts do, and we'd all move on with our lives. Have you ever seen a squirrel with daddy issues? Of course not.


Then what he's talking about isn't rape. He would be right if he said sex is a natural instinct. Rape is about a lot more than sex.
 
2011-06-17 02:28:51 PM
www.aquateencentral.com

Approves.
 
2011-06-17 02:34:58 PM
I don't think he's endorsing rape. I think he's saying all you perverts who want to "hit that" and "tap that" every girl you see, you're basically mind-raping them. and I agree. If my interaction with other males is any indication, your instinct is an impulse to have intercourse with every girl everywhere. You have impulse control so you don't rape them, but your brain automatically DOES go "sex with that!" and for some bizarre reason you feel like sharing this with every guy in your vicinity. It's weird, and its' perverted, and to me it's imaginary rape.
 
2011-06-17 03:01:19 PM
If it was that natural, a lot more men would do it, and rape/abuse porn would sell a lot better than it does.
 
2011-06-17 03:03:50 PM
So basically not raping, harassing, and exposing oneself is tantamount to "forcing a round peg into a square hole" and I should weep for the poor men who society forces to restrain their "natural" instincts. Blame society for the rapes rather than the men?

Dear Scott Adams: If you really find it that unbearable not to rape, harass, and expose yourself, then there is something wrong with YOU, not society. Get professional help. And eat my shiat.

Love,
MeanJean
 
2011-06-17 03:11:46 PM
The society that decides these things is made up of men, too, Scott.
 
2011-06-17 03:13:39 PM

SJKebab: I really don't see the problem here. Jayelectricity nailed it: He's right, but we're a civilized species and we don't act on our natures without consent.

If you guys are really that offended about being equated to rapists, then lets change the argument a little bit.

Dilbert creator Scott Adams says that rape murder is a "natural male instinct".

Do we, as a civilised society allow it? Hell no*. In a world 200,000 years ago before the advent of philosophy, religion etc, killing your rivals gave you the best chance keep resources for yourself - territory and women are included in those resources. That instinct to kill will eventually lead to something else - the instinct to appear completely batshiat insane as a defence mechanism.

There's nothing particularly controversial in what I've just said here. Go back into the not very distant past and you'll find that murder was common place over small grievances. Why is it so hard to admit that rape might also be in that lizard part of the brain?

If you think that I'm trying to be a rape/murder apologist, then pull your head out of your arse. We live in a society, and society has its rules. You deal with that or you get kicked out of the society (jail). I'm just not seeing what you're all getting so amped up about.

*except with government permission


Well said good sir. The idea of rape (and murder) is abhorrent to me, as it should be to anyone, but I'm quasi-sentient enough to realize that I've probably got some older genetic subroutines coded in that would have encouraged such behavior before my more recent socially and ethically oriented genetic imperatives were evolved.

Orgasmatron138: jaylectricity:

Then what he's talking about isn't rape. He would be right if he said sex is a natural instinct. Rape is about a lot more than sex.


You're assuming an emotional component, if I read that correctly. The urge to reproduce by force doesn't necessarily need one. Any number of species have males that couple without "consent". To me that seems the textbook definition of rape and that is a part of our genetic heritage, same as all other species.
 
2011-06-17 03:32:12 PM
www.watchcartoononline.com
www.rampant-books.com
 
2011-06-17 03:38:14 PM
So if we all agree he's a misogynist can we start posting the sexy ladies dressed as animals?
 
2011-06-17 03:39:54 PM

KatjaMouse: venerant: Animals that rape:

camels
dolphins
bed bugs (can only reproduce by piercing the female's abdomen with a spiky penis)
others, I'm sure

Most big cats have barbed penises that keeps the female from escaping. Similar thing with dogs where the base swells up keeping the female from running off and plugs his semen in her just long enough for it to settle in her reproductive system.


Lions and bears kill the offspring of other males in order to bring females back into estrus. Bears will even kill their own offspring, unknowingly. It's instinctual but abhorrent to civilized people. We can't deny our animal antecedents. Acknowledging them doesn't mean we condone them.
 
2011-06-17 03:44:38 PM

Grimthorn: Well written, reasoned post?


Precisely. Adams is AWing again. Instead of writting a clever and entertaining piece(he has on occasion done that) he inserted a rape metaphor into an otherwise throw away article in order to get people raging about it. Stunts like this are the reason I stopped reading his work.
 
2011-06-17 03:48:14 PM
He's not condoning rape.

Reading the entire blog post gives more context, where he's basically making a comment that men have desires that aren't always met, and there's no way to fix it.

Rape is a natural tendency, in general. Libyans are using it in warfare, it's been used for warfare in the past. It's a common inclination for those who want to express power over others. Those of us in 'normal' society with higher standards tend to have other ways to vent our frustration and feelings of impotence, but that doesn't mean it's not a natural tendency.

It just means most of us are in good control over our animal instincts.
 
2011-06-17 03:52:01 PM

SJKebab: Do we, as a civilised society allow it? Hell no*. In a world 200,000 years ago before the advent of philosophy, religion etc, killing your rivals gave you the best chance keep resources for yourself - territory and women are included in those resources. That instinct to kill will eventually lead to something else - the instinct to appear completely batshiat insane as a defence mechanism.



Not even that long ago. It was only in the 19th-20th centuries that rape gradually stopped being an accepted part of military conquest, particularly when the peoples/wimmins being conquerred were not considered to be of the same race as the invaders.
 
2011-06-17 03:54:50 PM
DRTFA -- because I don't care what Scott Adams has to say...

But didn't we learn from the LAST Scott Adams outrage orgy that he deliberately runs that blog as a collection of troll articles?

Also, if you think that a substantial percentage of civilized, educated, cultured, and intelligent men wouldn't become enthusiastic rapists with shockingly little social encouragement, then you really need to study what happened in the breakup of the former Yugoslavia in the 1990's.

And the whole damn world stood around their damn hands in their damn pockets and said "tsk, tsk", until BILL CLINTON said "Okay, that will be enough of that!"

/"Never again" my ass! I have never been as angry in my life as I was watching freaking NATO let another genocide happen right on their turf while they did nothing.
 
2011-06-17 04:22:53 PM
Going over and farking a woman is a natural male instinct. Beating a woman into submission for said farking isn't.

5 Guinness lunch, forgive me if someone else explained that already.
 
2011-06-17 04:23:33 PM
Thank god, I was beginning to think it was just me.
 
2011-06-17 04:49:28 PM

OhioKnight: But didn't we learn from the LAST Scott Adams outrage orgy that he deliberately runs that blog as a collection of troll articles?


This. Seriously, the man knows how to whip up attention for himself, albeit usually short lived.
 
2011-06-17 05:08:44 PM

Zumaki: He's not condoning rape.

Reading the entire blog post gives more context, where he's basically making a comment that men have desires that aren't always met, and there's no way to fix it.

Rape is a natural tendency, in general. Libyans are using it in warfare, it's been used for warfare in the past. It's a common inclination for those who want to express power over others. Those of us in 'normal' society with higher standards tend to have other ways to vent our frustration and feelings of impotence, but that doesn't mean it's not a natural tendency.

It just means most of us are in good control over our animal instincts.


But he uses it to say that men are held to a different standard than women when it comes to our natural instincts. He's trying to make us into victims of society when we most definitely aren't. Hell, men were the ones who created society in the first farking place.
 
2011-06-17 05:14:06 PM

PaulieVegas: Holy farking hyperbole.

In paragraph two, he's giving examples of the behavior "powerful men" have been engaging in lately that has been news worthy.


A he says it "seems right" that they're being held accountable. Not exactly a denunciation of their actions.

In paragraph three, he's having a MUCH broader thought regarding the fact that men can engage in certain actions and be disparaged as a pervert, while the same behaviors from women wouldn't garner a second thought, if they aren't outright praised.

I think the guy is a major douche, and I don't even agree with him in this case, but painting him as a rape apologist is a massive stretch here.

So the basic defense is that he's being a whiney douche.

I agree that he's not really defending rapists - he's just has sand in his vagina over the mistaken belief men are oppressed just because they can't do whatever the fark they want.

A WINNER IS SCOTT ADAMS.
 
2011-06-17 05:22:42 PM

xkillyourfacex: I don't think he's endorsing rape. I think he's saying all you perverts who want to "hit that" and "tap that" every girl you see, you're basically mind-raping them. and I agree. If my interaction with other males is any indication, your instinct is an impulse to have intercourse with every girl everywhere. You have impulse control so you don't rape them, but your brain automatically DOES go "sex with that!" and for some bizarre reason you feel like sharing this with every guy in your vicinity. It's weird, and its' perverted, and to me it's imaginary rape.


Mind-rape! That is the best thing i've read all day.

I knew there was a reason I trudged through 300+ comments of mind melting stupidity.

I'm about to go mind rape the chick in the cubicle next to me. Dem titties, nowutimean.
 
2011-06-17 05:23:53 PM

MeanJean: So basically not raping, harassing, and exposing oneself is tantamount to "forcing a round peg into a square hole" and I should weep for the poor men who society forces to restrain their "natural" instincts. Blame society for the rapes rather than the men?

Dear Scott Adams: If you really find it that unbearable not to rape, harass, and expose yourself, then there is something wrong with YOU, not society. Get professional help. And eat my shiat.

Love,
MeanJean


I like the part where we're supposed to feel sorry for Hugh Hefner because of what society has done to him:
"Consider Hugh Hefner. He had every benefit of being a single man, and yet he decided he needed to try marriage. Marriage didn't work out, so he tried the single life again. That didn't work out, so he planned to get married again, although reportedly the wedding just got called off. For Hef, being single didn't work, and getting married didn't work, at least not in the long run. Society didn't offer him a round hole for his round peg. All it offered were unlimited square holes.."

Hugh Hefner's been surrounded by "holes" for a good fifty years! - unlimited holes for his "turgid" peg.
 
2011-06-17 05:29:06 PM

Cookbook's Anarchist: I think you're misunderstanding the whole concept of rape. Rape is not a substitute for mate/have sex/rub/screw/fark/etc. Stop obfuscating the language. We are not in Orwell's vision just yet.


OK, so let's not use the word rape. Let's say, having sex with a female with no consent from the female other than submission.

Male cats have to bite the female's neck and their penis has to have barbs in it so the female can't get away.
 
2011-06-17 06:01:29 PM
For every whiny guy who's used the excuse "but animals do it!", here's a clue: most animals have "heat cycles" in females, which means that the males are being attracted by specific things like pheromones and behavior, and the females are being motivated by hormones to be exceptionally receptive. Otherwise, they pretty much ignore each others' sexuality.

IOW, we're only ovulating for 2 days out of 28, so you have no excuse for not controlling your aggressive behavior the other 26 days.
 
2011-06-17 06:02:11 PM

omeganuepsilon: Society didn't happen over night. People slowly worked out that it was safer to to just not do what they want on whim, and slowly rules were established,
These are morals. Man does not have them, they are taught ideals.


First off, a little less coffee in the morning will do you some good.

Sure, social animals are taught how to behave in their society and that applies to people as well as apes, dogs, etc. But there is some amount of "built in" good that has evolved because it benefits social animals to have more instincts than just eat, sleep, fark.
 
2011-06-17 06:27:37 PM
wtf
 
2011-06-17 06:31:54 PM
He's partially correct, however it's also male instinct in apes to tear their rivals' face and testicles off. Since we don't do that in civilized society because it's wrong then rape falls into the wrong category as well.
 
2011-06-17 06:46:13 PM

scruffy1: He's partially correct, however it's also male instinct in apes to tear their rivals' face and testicles off. Since we don't do that in civilized society because it's wrong then rape falls into the wrong category as well.


Nobody is saying it isn't wrong. Just that it's natural.
 
2011-06-17 06:47:29 PM

usernameguy: Start here (new window)

Continue here (new window)

Scott Adams is the saddest farking tool in the shed. He's the chainsaw of depression.


Apt description. That entire thread was so sad I could watch a documentary on kittens born with polio just to cheer up.

I think the saddest part about Scott's trolling attempts is he tries to be just oblique enough so "dumb people react" and then he can "pwn" them later... but he lacks the writing or intellectual skills to pull that off (I am pretty certain that if you are smart enough to pull it off, you are smart enough to realize how asinine the endeavor is.)


Regarding the topic: Wanting to have sex with women that don't want to have sex with you is natural. The natural response to wanting to have sex with someone that isn't interested in you is to be more interesting so she does want to - not rape. We all want sexual partners that improve the survivability of our genes, which means we want partners that are better than us. Since they'll feel the same way, people get creative with their sales pitch, but when that falls through interest does just drop right off. That is also an evolutionary imperative - don't waste time pursuing partners you've already tried your best with and failed to persuade.

Conflating the idea of "wanting what you can't have is natural" with the idea that rape is anything but disgusting to most men of course is beyond retarded. Scott deserves retard points for much of that conflation, and his loyal detractors deserve a lot of retard points for reading that much further into his idiotic conflations. I guess everyone gets a blue ribbon on this one.


/nothing to add with slashies
 
2011-06-17 06:57:10 PM

Confabulat: jaylectricity: We're not talking about forcing a girl to have sex with you even though she doesn't want to because you have cottage cheese thighs.

Uh, I weigh 140 pounds.


Is that thin for someone who stands 4'10"? I don't mean to pry but I don't know much about dwarfism.
 
2011-06-17 07:02:42 PM

jaylectricity: scruffy1: He's partially correct, however it's also male instinct in apes to tear their rivals' face and testicles off. Since we don't do that in civilized society because it's wrong then rape falls into the wrong category as well.

Nobody is saying it isn't wrong. Just that it's natural.


Right there with you, buddy. It's like forgetting to carry the 1 in arithmetic. Sure it's not quite right, but it's a natural mistake to make.
 
2011-06-17 07:03:24 PM
There's a whole bunch of you here that need to pay just a bit more attention to the shiattier portions of Africa. Destroy society enough an there's a crap ton of men out there that will revert to horrible rape monsters.
 
2011-06-17 07:09:01 PM

xkillyourfacex: I don't think he's endorsing rape. I think he's saying all you perverts who want to "hit that" and "tap that" every girl you see, you're basically mind-raping them. and I agree. If my interaction with other males is any indication, your instinct is an impulse to have intercourse with every girl everywhere. You have impulse control so you don't rape them, but your brain automatically DOES go "sex with that!" and for some bizarre reason you feel like sharing this with every guy in your vicinity. It's weird, and its' perverted, and to me it's imaginary rape.


Could you be more wrong?

I don't know any guys that talk about how great it would be to terrorize some poor girl by forcing themselves on her. I don't know anyone that fantasizes about that at all. Being aware that a girl is attractive and finding the idea of consensual sex attractive are both pretty benign, and has nothing to do with rape.


Imaginary rape = imagining rape - with the crying, screaming, trauma and all that sick shiat.
imaginary sex = imagining sex - sweet, consensual sex with a woman who is just amazed at how great you are of course as you undoubtedly have the Best Imaginary Dick In the World

Can you spot the difference?
 
2011-06-17 07:10:34 PM

Mr. Rapist Serial Killer: jaylectricity: scruffy1: He's partially correct, however it's also male instinct in apes to tear their rivals' face and testicles off. Since we don't do that in civilized society because it's wrong then rape falls into the wrong category as well.

Nobody is saying it isn't wrong. Just that it's natural.

Right there with you, buddy. It's like forgetting to carry the 1 in arithmetic. Sure it's not quite right, but it's a natural mistake to make.


I swear to god, if you ever do that with a number I care about, I'll rape your farking face off.
 
2011-06-17 07:14:04 PM

RoyBatty: In addition, only our species has such a distinctive mushroom-capped glans, which is connected to the shaft by a thin tissue of frenulum (the delicate tab of skin just beneath the urethra).


I wonder if the "flare" when a stallion copulates serves the same purpose.

Possibly NSFW: Link (new window)
 
2011-06-17 07:16:31 PM
This was explained pretty well by a couple posters, but there's the typical "I'm going to claim/prove my own ignorance, or just posture for the crowd" group of Farkers who don't seem to understand what's being argued. Subsequently, they begin to project irrelevant, and false, accusations upon those attempting to explain Adams's point.

Hive mind is an incredible thing. It's also incredible what power simple words have over the reaction of otherwise intelligent individuals.
 
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