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(MSNBC)   Abbas may ask UN to recognize Palestine. Mamma mia, here we go again   (msnbc.msn.com) divider line 180
    More: Interesting, Palestine, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Ramallah, Peace process in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Likud, Jewish settlements, Palestinian, Prime Minister of Israel  
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668 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 May 2011 at 1:39 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-05-25 04:23:01 PM
zedster: how many military take overs have they had over the last 50 years? seriously it's taken them a long long time to get where they are and the prospect of a renewed military push is always hanging over them

So it's not a good example? Shoulda been faster so it's full of shiat?
 
2011-05-25 04:24:52 PM

Rapmaster2000: This will be Abbas's Waterloo.


Just like that they're under attack.
 
2011-05-25 04:25:04 PM

jakomo002: Alien Robot; So don't shoot rockets over the border into Israeli schoolbuses.

So then don't brutally occupy, humiliate and subjugate an entire population for decades, with no end in sight, and expect them to HAPPY about it.

I mean, honestly, wtf do you expect them to send into Israel? Teddy bears with little notes saying "Thx for the Occupation! XOXO!"

If you keep your foot on someone's throat for long enough, they're going to start squirming, and maybe even bite your foot.


Yes but Fatah's first attack on Israel was in 1964 and the PFLP was in 1962 (today they are the PLO) and Israel didn't take the territory until 1967, hmm let me think. Wait! they attacked Israel before 1967, so they must have attacked as a preemptive measure against a possible future occupation to give the retroactive excuse you use.
 
2011-05-25 04:27:55 PM

jakomo002: A treaty, signed by the dictator Mubarak, to make sure the Rafah closing stays closed, in return for who knows what perks from the Americans. Probably just cash,

I'm sure you were just entirely ignorant of that, right? Brand new info?


That's so constrained them that they are opening that very border this Saturday. But, hey "it can't be done" right?

And of course: I'm sure you were just entirely ignorant of that, right? Brand new info?
 
2011-05-25 04:28:07 PM

jakomo002: zedster: how many military take overs have they had over the last 50 years? seriously it's taken them a long long time to get where they are and the prospect of a renewed military push is always hanging over them

So it's not a good example? Shoulda been faster so it's full of shiat?


no, you refuted an example that said in 5 years there would no longer be a military gov in Egypt with an example that took 50 years to stabilize. It was a poor example and showed a short sighted view of history or general lack there of. The AKP has had to play up war games as scandals to strip the old military ranks of their power to give them wiggle room, but no one yet knows if the new Turkish military will really have changed or if a new CHP resurgence due to AKP economic mismanagement will bring back the old guard both politically and military. Also, the Kurds would like a word with you, if Israel attacked the Palestinians with half the power the Turks attacked the PKK you would be in conniption fits
 
2011-05-25 04:29:30 PM
Alien Robot: So, even if Israels were to withdraw to the 1967 borders they would be on the receiving end of unending rocket attacks.

Once more, slowly. The rockets are a logical and predictable response to THE OCCUPATION. The continued occupation of Gaza (closed borders, Cast Lead incursions, suspending tax payments, etc).

So if you take away the Occupation, the reason for those rockets is gone. Is that starting to sink in?

An RPG deliberately shot into a school bus and killing a teenager is a little more than "bouncing off the pavement."

90% of the rockets fired into Israel are homemade pieces of crap that cause NO casualties other than people being sent to hospital suffering from "shock", Look it up. "Rocket attack Sderot shock"
 
2011-05-25 04:30:00 PM

jakomo002: So they were doing it because Mubarak wanted it, because he got something in return.


And that's not under Israeli control, now is it? Unless you claim Mubarak was a secret Jew or something.
 
2011-05-25 04:30:04 PM

jakomo002: jedihirsch: Well I'm totally convinced, based on those random pictures you dug up from the internet!

I don't see any rubble, any kids not smiling, and everyone looks happy!

Say, what international news agency are those from? You know, pictures from actual accredited reporters from inside Gaza.

Oh, none you say, because Israel has BLOCKED any and all international reporters from entering Gaza since 2007? That seems a little strange if you claim that everything is sunshine and lollipops, but oh well.


Considering that those photos were from the BBC and the BBC, France 24/7, AP, Reuters, etc have offices in Gaza because foreign journalists are allowed there. In fact one of the BBC journalists spoke here in NYC recently about what he saw in Gaza. Israel did not block international reporters in fact if you look in France 24/7 archives they show in 2009 their reporters going through the Gaza checkpoint
 
2011-05-25 04:31:17 PM
Alien Robot
Israel ended the occupation of Gaza in 2005 -- six years ago. And a full six years later they get this.

Nothing at all happened in the meanwhile.

separatist Jordanians

fark off


jakomo002
Which is true, but Israel still controls all borders, airspace, imports, exports, restricts any military presence (defending yourself from an IDF incursion is apparently punishable by death), and habitually targets and kills or kidnaps Palestinians, either elected politicians or "suspected" militants (sometimes for years with no documentation).

It's the same lack of occupation a prisoner in a jail cell is under- The guards aren't living in the cell, so they must be free!


Alien Robot
Are you really so stupid to not realize that Gaza has a border with Egypt? Israel has nothing to do with the Egyptian border. If BOTH neighboring contries have sealed you off, then you need some introspection as to why they might do that.

Relevant, breaking: Egypt to reopen Gaza border crossing
 
2011-05-25 04:32:11 PM

Mrtraveler01: I hear that's Israel's national anthem actually.


I'm thinking it makes a fine duet for the Religious Hardliner Chorus on both sides of the line, yeah...

/rest of the audience is just desperately waiting for intermission
 
2011-05-25 04:33:25 PM

jakomo002: Alien Robot: Good link. Poor kid died in that rocket attack, and yes, it is a tragedy.

The next sentences IS the bigger problem, though, apologies to the boy's family:

Nineteen Palestinians died in the ensuing wave of Israeli air strikes and Palestinian counter-attacks.

It was the most serious violence since Israel's conflict with Hamas in Gaza in December 2008 and January 2009.

About 1,400 Palestinians, more than half of them civilians, and 13 Israelis, including 10 soldiers, were killed.

So while 1 teenage boy dying on a bus is a tragedy, the retaliations and counter-strikes are an ATROCITY.


Well when you put a rocket launcher on the roof of a house and Israel bombs that house to rid the rocket launcher and Israel notifies the people that they had 3 hours to leave b/c they were bombing the rocket launcher and some of them stayed behind and die in the explosion, to you is the same as using an anti tank missile on a bright yellow school bus or slitting the throat of a baby less that a year old and stabbing his toddler brother (the man is now being celebrated as a hero by the Palestinians), then you are Farked up man
 
2011-05-25 04:34:22 PM

Mrtraveler01: The song that both Israel and Palestine play in regards to this situation


Heh. Also nice.

In elementary school a friend of mine had the record of that song, we used to listen to it all the time, it's nostalgic now...
 
2011-05-25 04:43:39 PM
Alien Robot : That's so constrained them that they are opening that very border this Saturday. But, hey "it can't be done" right?And of course: I'm sure you were just entirely ignorant of that, right? Brand new info?

Oh my god. That's the story I've been posting to you all over this thread. They're opening it because Mubarak is GONE. The spokesman says the closing was inhuman. Wow, I ... I just don't .... Conversation over, lesson learned. Wow.



zedster: Don't get me wrong, Turkey has her own serious problems (Kurdish issue, terrible human rights violations, corruption, etc), but they actually do a lot of things right, and a re a pretty fair example of a successful Islamic secular democracy, and it didn't come easy nor is there a guarantee it'll stay, but it looks solid.



jedihirsch; the BBC, France 24/7, AP, Reuters, etc have offices in Gaza because foreign journalists are allowed there

Yeah, the BBC has 2 whole guys there.. except they just have a Gaza office, it's not actually IN Gaza. Do a simple google search of "Israel reporters Gaza" and sift through it yourself, you'll get quotes like this from the BBC team in Gaza:

Since we can't get our own crews and correspondents into Gaza, we are dependent on our shots from the border and news agency pictures from inside.

So then, um, nope. Still not allowed. Even the Israeli Supreme Court ordered them to. Still no.
 
2011-05-25 04:46:44 PM

jakomo002: zedster: Don't get me wrong, Turkey has her own serious problems (Kurdish issue, terrible human rights violations, corruption, etc), but they actually do a lot of things right, and a re a pretty fair example of a successful Islamic secular democracy, and it didn't come easy nor is there a guarantee it'll stay, but it looks solid.


right but you chose to put them on a pedestal while down playing Israel, this is where I start to have issues with the uneven amount of attention Israel is given while other with similar issues are left alone or ignored
 
2011-05-25 04:49:07 PM
jedihirsch; Well when you put a rocket launcher on the roof of a house and Israel bombs that house to rid the rocket launcher and Israel notifies the people that they had 3 hours to leave b/c they were bombing the rocket launcher and some of them stayed behind and die in the explosion, to you is the same as using an anti tank missile on a bright yellow school bus or slitting the throat of a baby less that a year old and stabbing his toddler brother (the man is now being celebrated as a hero by the Palestinians), then you are Farked up man

How dramatic. I can almost feel the swarthy evil Palestinian breathing down my neck trying to kill me.

I especially like the fantasy that Israel warns them, gives them 3 hours to vacate the house. Haha. So they drop flyers that say "GET OUT OF YOUR HOUSE WE'RE GOING TO UTTERLY DESTROY IT!" so that makes it supercool of them, right?

Even if you drop a friendly leaflet, you have no right to bomb a civilian structure, unless you have clear and incontrivertable evidence of said rocket. And, uh, let's just say the IDF uses the words "suspected militant" and "suspected launch site" pretty liberally.

What if the militant told the guy at gunpoint "I'm launching a farking rocket from your roof and if you don't like it I can shoot you in the face and do it anyway."
 
2011-05-25 05:00:21 PM
zedster: right but you chose to put them on a pedestal while down playing Israel

I'm sorry, then, I wasn't really comparing them to Israel as much as I was trying to highlight them as an example of an Islamic government that's not a bunch of cruel wackos.
 
2011-05-25 05:01:37 PM
Well they SHOULD recognize it as a state. In fact, I think it's kinda sad that they haven't already. Then they can hold them responsible for their attacks on Israel with many strongly worded letters.

And they can also hold Israel responsible for all the settlements dotted throughout Palestinian lands. More strongly worded missives from the League of United Nations, I assume.
 
2011-05-25 05:01:45 PM

zedster: right but you chose to put them on a pedestal while down playing Israel, this is where I start to have issues with the uneven amount of attention Israel is given while other with similar issues are left alone or ignored


Israel's a really weird case, though. If WWII and the UN had never happened, there'd be no Israel, probably just a bigger Jordan with a bunch of resident Jews. Plus Israelis as we know them today are recent arrivals in the area, which causes hard feelings among locals everywhere.

No other nation has a history like it, and by its very nature and birth it's a creature of the "international community".

It's not like there was a vote among the area residents back in 1948 for "Let's allow these folks escaping from Europe citizenship here and immediately let them run all our shiat. (yes/no)". And to be quite honest, for a lot of people the idea of an ethno-religious based state is kinda skeevy, seeing as how that's what they escaped only a few years prior.
 
2011-05-25 05:08:12 PM

jedihirsch: RowdyRough: The Stealth Hippopotamus: First they have to recognize Israel!

But what good is recognizing a country when you yourself are not recognized as a country? And it's not like anyone is going to take their word on "Hey you'll recognize us and then we'll recognize Israel".

What do you say we buy a sharpie, some name tags and invite everyone to a party? There will be punch and pie.



Just to attempt to dispel this myth... (new window)

"Hamas accepts the existence of the state of Israel but will not officially recognise it until the establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, according to the group's leader in Damascus, Khaled Meshaal.

In comments made to Reuters, Mr Meshaal softened his anti-Israel rhetoric, suggesting that Hamas does not seek the destruction of Israel as written in the group's charter. He said that Israel is a "reality" and "there will remain a state called Israel, this is a matter of fact"."

3 years ago people...

Um Hamas renounced that at the time saying the comment was not authorized. The Hamas charter states that all that land is Palestine and no Israel can exist. Their charter also calls for Israel's annihilation. But I won't let facts get in your way



wiki (new window)

"On 1 December 2010, Ismail Haniyeh said that "Hamas will respect the results (of a referendum) regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles"[66] and that "We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees."[67]"

Sounds to me like they are ready to respect outside resolution, also;

"As for the current status of the charter, Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that it is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons."[73] British diplomat and former British ambassador to the UN Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006".[74]"

Try again?

/"Mohammed Nimer of American University comments on the Charter, "It's a tract meant to mobilize support and it should be amended... It projects anger, not vision."[75] Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.[73]"
 
2011-05-25 05:09:19 PM
jakomo002:
What if the militant told the guy at gunpoint "I'm launching a farking rocket from your roof and if you don't like it I can shoot you in the face and do it anyway."

What if Palestinians actually took some responsibility for themselves and got rid of Hamas so they could negotiate with Israel like grown ups?
 
2011-05-25 05:11:44 PM

RanDomino: I don't understand why I have to keep posting this


I don't understand why you think cutting down on firing rockets is a cease fire.

mongbiohazard: Well they SHOULD recognize it as a state. In fact, I think it's kinda sad that they haven't already. Then they can hold them responsible for their attacks on Israel with many strongly worded letters.

And they can also hold Israel responsible for all the settlements dotted throughout Palestinian lands. More strongly worded missives from the League of United Nations, I assume.


I think they should.

I don't know what it will really change, hopefully it would be a kick in the butt to make a real two state solution, but probably not.
 
2011-05-25 05:14:36 PM

jakomo002: Oh my god. That's the story I've been posting to you all over this thread. They're opening it because Mubarak is GONE. The spokesman says the closing was inhuman. Wow, I ... I just don't .... Conversation over, lesson learned. Wow.


The fact that the Egyptians are opening their border with Gaza totally proves my point that Israel doesn't control Gaza borders -- Israel controls just Israels's borders. You were arguing the opposite. Allow me to quote: "Israel still controls all [Gaza's] borders, airspace, imports, exports, ..." So does Israel control all Gaza's borders, imports and exports or don't they? Which is it?
 
2011-05-25 05:15:12 PM

Bonzo_1116: zedster: right but you chose to put them on a pedestal while down playing Israel, this is where I start to have issues with the uneven amount of attention Israel is given while other with similar issues are left alone or ignored

Israel's a really weird case, though. If WWII and the UN had never happened, there'd be no Israel, probably just a bigger Jordan with a bunch of resident Jews. Plus Israelis as we know them today are recent arrivals in the area, which causes hard feelings among locals everywhere.

No other nation has a history like it, and by its very nature and birth it's a creature of the "international community".

It's not like there was a vote among the area residents back in 1948 for "Let's allow these folks escaping from Europe citizenship here and immediately let them run all our shiat. (yes/no)". And to be quite honest, for a lot of people the idea of an ethno-religious based state is kinda skeevy, seeing as how that's what they escaped only a few years prior.


True story, the king of Jordan at the time wrote a very nice letter to the US asking us to share some of the new immigrants to Palestine before there was even a state of Israel. The letter expressed that they were happy to take Jewish immigrants, just not all of them, and that they had been causing problems with the people already living in Palestine. It's an interesting letter for anyone who is interested in the history surrounding the foundation of Israel.
 
2011-05-25 05:16:44 PM

zedster: Mrtraveler01: That would be true if you forget all about Turkey and it's democracy.

how many military take overs have they had over the last 50 years? seriously it's taken them a long long time to get where they are and the prospect of a renewed military push is always hanging over them


Moving the goalposts I see?
 
2011-05-25 05:27:57 PM
liam76
I don't understand why you think cutting down on firing rockets is a cease fire.

Did you see that graph? FFS, here it is again:

upload.wikimedia.org

You're still trying to say that a reduction from 355 to 12 isn't good enough? I suppose it fits with the Zionist belief that the Palestinians are a hive-mind.
 
2011-05-25 05:28:05 PM

liam76: I don't understand why you think cutting down on firing rockets is a cease fire.


Personally I'd say it's a validation of the embargo.
 
2011-05-25 05:29:33 PM

Mrtraveler01: That would be true if you forget all about Turkey and it's democracy.


1. Turks are not Arabs (try calling a Turk an Arab and see what happens--opposite is also true.)
2. My response was in respect to a "thanks to the Arab Spring Israel will soon be surrounded by flourishing democracies" comment.
3. Turkey is a democracy in the sense that as long as the people don't try to establish an Islamic Republic, the military allows them to have a democracy. The Turkish military is, well, militantly secular and has made it very clear what the repercussions would be to an attempt to establish a theocracy.
4. Speaking of Turkey, how come the Turks get a pass on the out-and-out mass murder they perpetrated against the Armenians, but the Israeli occupation, which has resulted in a tripling of the Palestinian population since 1967, is somehow characterized as a genocide?
 
2011-05-25 05:33:42 PM

clambam: Mrtraveler01: That would be true if you forget all about Turkey and it's democracy.

1. Turks are not Arabs (try calling a Turk an Arab and see what happens--opposite is also true.)
2. My response was in respect to a "thanks to the Arab Spring Israel will soon be surrounded by flourishing democracies" comment.
3. Turkey is a democracy in the sense that as long as the people don't try to establish an Islamic Republic, the military allows them to have a democracy. The Turkish military is, well, militantly secular and has made it very clear what the repercussions would be to an attempt to establish a theocracy.
4. Speaking of Turkey, how come the Turks get a pass on the out-and-out mass murder they perpetrated against the Armenians, but the Israeli occupation, which has resulted in a tripling of the Palestinian population since 1967, is somehow characterized as a genocide?


My response was in regards to your response that the "Muslim World" somehow can't have a Democracy. I provided one and now you're making up excuses.

Simple as that.
 
2011-05-25 05:41:22 PM

RanDomino: Palestinians are a hive-mind.


On the contrary.

A group incapable of governing its own borders. The real fear of Israel is that if they absolve themselves of the Palestinian annoyance, the random Palestinian who gets to sit at the UN table and wave the little flag isn't actually capable of policing the land.

And that the large groups of Jihadis within the freshly cut Palestine will be able to smuggle (or simply drive in) in something that can cause serious damage and casualties. With the comments and weapons capabilities of Iran, the concern isn't unfounded.

Explosives are still being fired. It's only a question into the sincerity of the Palestinian authority.

A.) Sincere but incompetent
B.) Insincere

Regardless, YOU'RE A farkING MORON.
 
2011-05-25 05:46:27 PM

Alien Robot: The fact that the Egyptians are opening their border with Gaza totally proves my point that Israel doesn't control Gaza borders -- Israel controls just Israels's borders. You were arguing the opposite. Allow me to quote: "Israel still controls all [Gaza's] borders, airspace, imports, exports, ..." So does Israel control all Gaza's borders, imports and exports or don't they? Which is it?


They do today, right? And how about for the last 40 years, can you tell me when it wasn't? And who knows what will happen when it does get opened, a whole list of things comes to mind.

/really have no dog in this race just curious
 
2011-05-25 05:49:29 PM

Bonzo_1116: zedster: right but you chose to put them on a pedestal while down playing Israel, this is where I start to have issues with the uneven amount of attention Israel is given while other with similar issues are left alone or ignored

Israel's a really weird case, though. If WWII and the UN had never happened, there'd be no Israel, probably just a bigger Jordan with a bunch of resident Jews. Plus Israelis as we know them today are recent arrivals in the area, which causes hard feelings among locals everywhere.

No other nation has a history like it, and by its very nature and birth it's a creature of the "international community".

It's not like there was a vote among the area residents back in 1948 for "Let's allow these folks escaping from Europe citizenship here and immediately let them run all our shiat. (yes/no)". And to be quite honest, for a lot of people the idea of an ethno-religious based state is kinda skeevy, seeing as how that's what they escaped only a few years prior.


The ground work for Israel was in place in 1917, WWII just spead things up. Also, the creations of Singapore, Taiwan and a whole slew of other nations are not that diffrent.
 
2011-05-25 05:57:49 PM

clambam: Speaking of Turkey, how come the Turks get a pass on the out-and-out mass murder they perpetrated against the Armenians


Since when do they get a pass on it? At least in the US it comes up fairly frequently, remember 1915 and all that. They also get slammed for their mistreatment of the Kurds and banning Kurdish language in the past.

As for Taiwan, they are not demanding independence from China right now. Should domestic politics CHANGE and they officially start agitating for independence, it could get interesting.

Ditto Kurdistan, if the semi-independent zone in northern Iraq decides to go for the full deal, it could get interesting.
 
2011-05-25 06:15:40 PM

zedster:

The ground work for Israel was in place in 1917, WWII just spead things up. Also, the creations of Singapore, Taiwan and a whole slew of other nations are not that diffrent.


Most of those other nations are breakaways from a larger entity, not so much hundreds of thousands new people moving into a place all at once bringing a new language and culture and government of their own. Resentment on the part of the local people is pretty much a given for that sort of thing.

I mean look at the people in the US Southwest freaking the f*ck out about Mexicans moving into "Aztlan". If anything the Mexicans have a more legit claim to California, as the Mexican flag flew over Los Angeles as recently as 1845.
 
2011-05-25 06:18:22 PM

jakomo002: jedihirsch; Well when you put a rocket launcher on the roof of a house and Israel bombs that house to rid the rocket launcher and Israel notifies the people that they had 3 hours to leave b/c they were bombing the rocket launcher and some of them stayed behind and die in the explosion, to you is the same as using an anti tank missile on a bright yellow school bus or slitting the throat of a baby less that a year old and stabbing his toddler brother (the man is now being celebrated as a hero by the Palestinians), then you are Farked up man

How dramatic. I can almost feel the swarthy evil Palestinian breathing down my neck trying to kill me.

I especially like the fantasy that Israel warns them, gives them 3 hours to vacate the house. Haha. So they drop flyers that say "GET OUT OF YOUR HOUSE WE'RE GOING TO UTTERLY DESTROY IT!" so that makes it supercool of them, right?

Even if you drop a friendly leaflet, you have no right to bomb a civilian structure, unless you have clear and incontrivertable evidence of said rocket. And, uh, let's just say the IDF uses the words "suspected militant" and "suspected launch site" pretty liberally.

What if the militant told the guy at gunpoint "I'm launching a farking rocket from your roof and if you don't like it I can shoot you in the face and do it anyway."


Israel provided to the UN during the investigation proof that that gave advanced warning and provided satellite photos (confirmed by UK, Germany, China, and the US) that the launchers were there. Israel also posted up online the videos taken from the fighter aircraft when they hit their targets which show the launchers there. The UN report stated that in Gaza Israel did follow the guidelines for warning and flagging civilian buildings as military targets, their complaint was the use of certain kinds of munitions and that they felt that Israel could have been more careful though they acknowledged that Israel was within the letter of law in regard to hitting civilian buildings. And according to international law you can bomb a civilian structure if it being used for military purposes if you give the civilians time to evacuate.
"The "use" of an object relates to its present function, with the result that a civilian object can become a military objective due to its use by armed forces." Link

Also from article 53 of the Geneva convention "Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to protected persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations."Link
"when combatants fire from within civilian structures or activate roadside charges from trees and fields, these structures are to be considered legitimate military targets." (article 53 in the 77 amendments)
Also
"Protocol 1 Additional to the Geneva Conventions, 1977
PART IV: CIVILIAN POPULATION
Section 1: General Protection Against Effects of Hostilities
Chapter II: Civilians and Civilian Population
Article 50: Definition of Civilians and Civilian Population

7. The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favor or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.

Any violation of these prohibitions shall not release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians, including the obligation to take the precautionary measures provided for in Article 57."


You blast Israel yet you don't know International law. Don't make accusations unless you can back it up with facts. Please read up before stating an incorrect opinion when the actual laws state otherwise also read the full UN report that's on their website. After reading the international laws and the full UN report get back then we'll talk, don't spout you ignorance as fact
 
2011-05-25 06:29:57 PM
Bonzo_1116
I mean look at the people in the US Southwest freaking the f*ck out about Mexicans moving into "Aztlan". If anything the Mexicans have a more legit claim to California, as the Mexican flag flew over Los Angeles as recently as 1845.

Only land claims up to roughly 100 AD are valid.
 
2011-05-25 06:31:19 PM

RanDomino: You're still trying to say that a reduction from 355 to 12 isn't good enough? I suppose it fits with the Zionist belief that the Palestinians are a hive-mind


I am saying only shooting 12 rockets doesn't meat the criteria of a cease fire.

So if you are trying to use it to prove that hammas will follow a cease fire then no it isn't good enough.
 
2011-05-25 06:33:45 PM

Bonzo_1116: zedster:

The ground work for Israel was in place in 1917, WWII just spead things up. Also, the creations of Singapore, Taiwan and a whole slew of other nations are not that diffrent.

Most of those other nations are breakaways from a larger entity, not so much hundreds of thousands new people moving into a place all at once bringing a new language and culture and government of their own. Resentment on the part of the local people is pretty much a given for that sort of thing.

I mean look at the people in the US Southwest freaking the f*ck out about Mexicans moving into "Aztlan". If anything the Mexicans have a more legit claim to California, as the Mexican flag flew over Los Angeles as recently as 1845.


But according to the 1832 ottoman censut jews were 55% of the population and right before ww2 jews were 46%. Crusader listed jews as the dominant group there during the third crusade (see writing of Guy Raymond)plus jews have always been there since antiquity. Even Napoleon declared that he would make a jewish state there and he invaded the region but failed. Many of the Jews are the "Natives" (I know a rabbi who's family can trace themselves in Akko from the 13th century) . According to Ottoman document after it came out that Jews were the majority there was an influx of poor arabs from Syria and Egypt the Mullah''s brought in to offset the jews and there were arab attacks on the jews to force them to leave. The ottomans tried to stop this but were too weak. the jews responded with a run of immigrants in the late 19th century which led to another rush of poor arabs in response. This went back and forth until the 1940's. Most of the "so-Called Palestinians" have as long a residency there as most of the jews. While over 80% of Arab-Israelis can trace back that long, many in the territories cannot trace back before 1880. Look at ottoman and British census records for the population shifts. And much of the farm land in the west bank was cultivated by jews who were evicted by the Jordanians in 1948. Most of the farmland in the north was swamp land until the jews drained it (thousands died) and now it is wheat fields. The resentment comes from that until 1948 all jews in the Arab world lived under Dhimi status (second class citizens according to sharia) and now that jews are strong and independent which goes against how they are raised. it has nothing to do with Jews moving in. Besides what about the over 1 million jews from arab countries that fled between 1948-53 from riots and persecution with property stolen from them valued at over 100 billion (much of that in artifcacts like a 1800 year old scroll in a 1700 year old silver case that's valued at 45mil on the antiquites market stolen by the Iraqi govt in 1949)/ This is an entity breaking away not interlopers as you claim
 
2011-05-25 06:37:26 PM

zedster: Bonzo_1116: zedster: right but you chose to put them on a pedestal while down playing Israel, this is where I start to have issues with the uneven amount of attention Israel is given while other with similar issues are left alone or ignored

Israel's a really weird case, though. If WWII and the UN had never happened, there'd be no Israel, probably just a bigger Jordan with a bunch of resident Jews. Plus Israelis as we know them today are recent arrivals in the area, which causes hard feelings among locals everywhere.

No other nation has a history like it, and by its very nature and birth it's a creature of the "international community".

It's not like there was a vote among the area residents back in 1948 for "Let's allow these folks escaping from Europe citizenship here and immediately let them run all our shiat. (yes/no)". And to be quite honest, for a lot of people the idea of an ethno-religious based state is kinda skeevy, seeing as how that's what they escaped only a few years prior.

The ground work for Israel was in place in 1917, WWII just spead things up. Also, the creations of Singapore, Taiwan and a whole slew of other nations are not that diffrent.


Actually Singapore is different in that both sides wanted the fark out of that relationship with Malaysia.

/If memory serves me correctly
 
2011-05-25 06:38:51 PM

RanDomino: Bonzo_1116
I mean look at the people in the US Southwest freaking the f*ck out about Mexicans moving into "Aztlan". If anything the Mexicans have a more legit claim to California, as the Mexican flag flew over Los Angeles as recently as 1845.

Only land claims up to roughly 100 AD are valid.


And mexico lost it in a war with the US and according to the treaty of Guadalupe they had to surrender that land to the US. We were also occupying Mexico City at the time, but we got that land via a legit treaty in a legit war. remember we were arguing with Mexico over the border Mexico rebuffed our deal an in April 1846, 2000 Mexican cavalry men a 70-man U.S. patrol near the border (on the US side) killing 16. a few weeks later we declared war on Mexico and we won and got cal. Learn history before making stupid comments
 
2011-05-25 06:48:07 PM

jakomo002: Alien Robot : That's so constrained them that they are opening that very border this Saturday. But, hey "it can't be done" right?And of course: I'm sure you were just entirely ignorant of that, right? Brand new info?

Oh my god. That's the story I've been posting to you all over this thread. They're opening it because Mubarak is GONE. The spokesman says the closing was inhuman. Wow, I ... I just don't .... Conversation over, lesson learned. Wow.



zedster: Don't get me wrong, Turkey has her own serious problems (Kurdish issue, terrible human rights violations, corruption, etc), but they actually do a lot of things right, and a re a pretty fair example of a successful Islamic secular democracy, and it didn't come easy nor is there a guarantee it'll stay, but it looks solid.



jedihirsch; the BBC, France 24/7, AP, Reuters, etc have offices in Gaza because foreign journalists are allowed there

Yeah, the BBC has 2 whole guys there.. except they just have a Gaza office, it's not actually IN Gaza. Do a simple google search of "Israel reporters Gaza" and sift through it yourself, you'll get quotes like this from the BBC team in Gaza:

Since we can't get our own crews and correspondents into Gaza, we are dependent on our shots from the border and news agency pictures from inside.

So then, um, nope. Still not allowed. Even the Israeli Supreme Court ordered them to. Still no.


I think that they banned reporters fro the 2009 conflict/war

In Gaza, Hamas forces rough up protesters, reporters (new window)
March 19, 2011|From Kevin Flower, CNN

Violence erupted in and around Gaza on Saturday, as Hamas security forces roughed up demonstrators and journalists, and five people were wounded in cross-border fighting.

Security forces stormed the offices of international news organizations after the violent break-up of a small demonstration in Gaza City on Saturday, witnesses said. Journalists covering that event were roughed up, they said.

They raided the offices of CNN, Reuters and Japanese broadcaster NHK, all in the same building where international news operations are located.

Reuters bureau chief for Israel and the Palestinian territories, Crispian Balmer, said one employee was beaten with an iron rod and another was threatened with being thrown out the window. He said a camera was confiscated but was later returned. A TV and a computer keyboard were destroyed by the security forces.

The forces forcibly entered the CNN office, demanding to see whether there was any television equipment and asking if anyone had been shooting video footage from the office.

NHK Jerusalem bureau chief Disuke Iijima said videotape had been confiscated.

No one was hurt at CNN and NHK.

After the incidents, Gaza-based journalists, many of whom work for international news organizations, staged a sit-in in Gaza City to protest the government's tactics and promised a boycott of Hamas press events.

The office raids came immediately after uniformed and plain-clothes Hamas security officials broke up a small student rally calling for political unity between the two major Palestinian political parties, Hamas and Fatah.
 
2011-05-25 07:12:36 PM
liam76
I am saying only shooting 12 rockets doesn't meat the criteria of a cease fire.

List of ceasefire violations in the first week
Dozens by Israelis. A few by Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade and Islamic Jihad. Even of those few rockets that were fired during the ceasefire, nearly all were fired by non-Hamas groups. I don't understand how you can possibly blame Hamas but not admit that Israel also grossly violated the ceasefire, at a much higher rate than Palestinians even when you lump them all together including non-Hamas groups.

Wait, sorry; I forgot that Palestinians aren't white and therefore crimes committed against them doesn't count, my mistake.


jedihirsch
And mexico lost it in a war with the US and according to the treaty of Guadalupe they had to surrender that land to the US. We were also occupying Mexico City at the time, but we got that land via a legit treaty in a legit war. remember we were arguing with Mexico over the border Mexico rebuffed our deal an in April 1846, 2000 Mexican cavalry men a 70-man U.S. patrol near the border (on the US side) killing 16. a few weeks later we declared war on Mexico and we won and got cal. Learn history before making stupid comments

There is no right to take land by conquest. It's theft, even if the thief has a flag.
 
2011-05-25 07:21:21 PM

RanDomino: There is no right to take land by conquest. It's theft, even if the thief has a flag.


i think history would disagree.
 
2011-05-25 07:31:31 PM

jedihirsch: But according to the 1832 ottoman censut jews were 55% of the population and right before ww2 jews were 46%.


Hmm. Let me check wikipedia
By Volney's estimates in 1785, there were no more than 200,000 people in the country.[212] According to Alexander Scholch, the population of Palestine in 1850 had about 350,000 inhabitants, 30% of whom lived in 13 towns; roughly 85% were Muslims, 11% were Christians and 4% Jews[213]
According to Ottoman statistics studied by Justin McCarthy,[214] the population of Palestine in the early 19th century was 350,000, in 1860 it was 411,000 and in 1900 about 600,000 of which 94% were Arabs. In 1914 Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews.[215] McCarthy estimates the non-Jewish population of Palestine at 452,789 in 1882, 737,389 in 1914, 725,507 in 1922, 880,746 in 1931 and 1,339,763 in 1946.[216]
Official reports
In 1920, the League of Nations' Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine stated that there were 700,000 people living in Palestine:
Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or-a small number-are Protestants. The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions.[217]
By 1948, the population had risen to 1,900,000, of whom 68% were Arabs, and 32% were Jews (UNSCOP report, including bedouin).


Wow. That sounds nothing like your claim.
 
2011-05-25 07:32:46 PM

RanDomino: liam76
I am saying only shooting 12 rockets doesn't meat the criteria of a cease fire.

List of ceasefire violations in the first week
Dozens by Israelis. A few by Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade and Islamic Jihad. Even of those few rockets that were fired during the ceasefire, nearly all were fired by non-Hamas groups. I don't understand how you can possibly blame Hamas but not admit that Israel also grossly violated the ceasefire, at a much higher rate than Palestinians even when you lump them all together including non-Hamas groups.

Wait, sorry; I forgot that Palestinians aren't white and therefore crimes committed against them doesn't count, my mistake.


jedihirsch
And mexico lost it in a war with the US and according to the treaty of Guadalupe they had to surrender that land to the US. We were also occupying Mexico City at the time, but we got that land via a legit treaty in a legit war. remember we were arguing with Mexico over the border Mexico rebuffed our deal an in April 1846, 2000 Mexican cavalry men a 70-man U.S. patrol near the border (on the US side) killing 16. a few weeks later we declared war on Mexico and we won and got cal. Learn history before making stupid comments

There is no right to take land by conquest. It's theft, even if the thief has a flag.


It wasn't by conquest it was by treaty in a war that followed the regulations of war according to the Treaty of Paris, which both nations were signatories to. The US never took those territories we got them in the post war treaty. Gig difference from a legal stand point. Theft would be if the US had marched in and taken it. This was given over in a post-war treaty in a war the other guy started
 
2011-05-25 07:41:54 PM

jakomo002: Once that is gone, then Hamas needs a new platform. There;s no way in hell they'd win anything if they kept to their current policies, because they'd have WON, and not by violence. They'd have a state.

And if they decide to launch a rocket into Israel at that time, Israel could say to the UN, "We're under attack and we're retaliating" and it would be 100% legal and nobody could say anything about it, and Hamas would know it. They would get completely flattened and they would have nobody to turn to, least of all the international community, who would be VERY harsh with them (because they'd have egg on their face).

All because of clearly delineated international BORDERS, which is the singlemost important first step that's been utterly impossible to do for decades.



Ok this is utterly wrong. The platform of Hamas denies the very existence of Israel, be it based on the current borders, the '67 borders, or the '48 borders. The Palestinians have also insisted, in previous negotiations, on a right of return, most of Jerusalem, and a territorial corridor between the West Bank and Gaza. All of which were deemed to be material to any lasting peace.

Simply withdrawing to the '67 borders will not, in the eyes of the Palestinians, resolve the conflict since Israel itself is, in their eyes, on Palestinian land (even though Israel proper has been utterly devoid of Palestinians for decades).

This conflict has had decades to stew and decades for the people there to form their current opinions. Simply deeming that the West Bank and Gaza, based on the '67 borders, is a state won't resolve the issue nor will it stop the violence between the parties. Too much ill will and too much bad blood.

Hell, even your comment about the effect of legality and public opinion bears little resemblance to reality. Hamas is already a pariah that already faces significant obstacles in order to obtain supplies. Israeli actions are already criticized and condemned. Yet both parties are fully capable of committing acts of violence against the other.
 
2011-05-25 07:47:11 PM

Auto432: jedihirsch: But according to the 1832 ottoman censut jews were 55% of the population and right before ww2 jews were 46%.

Hmm. Let me check wikipedia By Volney's estimates in 1785, there were no more than 200,000 people in the country.[212] According to Alexander Scholch, the population of Palestine in 1850 had about 350,000 inhabitants, 30% of whom lived in 13 towns; roughly 85% were Muslims, 11% were Christians and 4% Jews[213]
According to Ottoman statistics studied by Justin McCarthy,[214] the population of Palestine in the early 19th century was 350,000, in 1860 it was 411,000 and in 1900 about 600,000 of which 94% were Arabs. In 1914 Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews.[215] McCarthy estimates the non-Jewish population of Palestine at 452,789 in 1882, 737,389 in 1914, 725,507 in 1922, 880,746 in 1931 and 1,339,763 in 1946.[216]
Official reports
In 1920, the League of Nations' Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine stated that there were 700,000 people living in Palestine:
Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or-a small number-are Protestants. The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions.[217]
By 1948, the population had risen to 1,900,000, of whom 68% were Arabs, and 32% were Jews (UNSCOP report, including bedouin).

Wow. That sounds nothing like your claim.


First wiki is not a source. And the problem with using pre 1917 records are the ottomans consider it with lebanon as part of Syria. Don't look at the ottoman records for the region rather look at demographics by sub regions then add up all the sub-regions that are part of Israel and you get a different number.
As to my other number go to the National Archives in London and look at the british documents for the area (and I meant before ww1 not ww2 my typo)and look at the population numbers most people use the number for the whole area of british transjordan not Mandate of Palestine which was a sub area of the former.
People nned to look at the numbers for the area we are talking about today not these larger bounderies for example this is Transjordan upload.wikimedia.org
and this is Ottoman Syria upload.wikimedia.org Now instead of using the population for the larger areas go into the census archives and look by villiage region and town and then add it up based on todays map and you get a different picture. your numbers are coming from the wrong areas


Wiki is not a source and if my adviser ever saw one of his undergrads use wiki as a source it would be an automatic F
 
2011-05-25 07:50:56 PM

Blairr: YOU'RE A farkING MORON.


Man.. That was rude.

Sorry. Coffee. I blame that.
 
2011-05-25 07:52:47 PM

JK47: The Palestinians have also insisted, in previous negotiations, on a right of return, most of Jerusalem


Don't the Israelis insist on a right of return?

The Palestinians want most of Jerusalem? Aren't the Israelis expanding in East Jerusalem and encircling it with settlements?

JK47: The platform of Hamas denies the very existence of Israel


I never got this. We don't ask the Indians to give us the right to exist. Plus, which one wants a state and can't get it. A second strike nuclear power doesnt need to ask someone the "right" to exist. Why is that so important?

Everyone wants a territorial corridor and so on.

All this biatching and they're going to have to get all multiethnic like the rest of us.
 
2011-05-25 07:57:01 PM

colon_pow: RanDomino: There is no right to take land by conquest. It's theft, even if the thief has a flag.

i think history would disagree.


Sadly, this.

I think the problem comes down to this: The Israelis need to decide if they want the land or not. The Palestinians are outgunned, and so don't have a real option of a "reconquista" of what's now Israel. They'd get their asses beat hard. So it's really Israel's choice here.

But this piecemeal stuff with the settlements and IDF personnel dotted all over the West Bank isn't really workable in the long run. That space is either Israel, or it's not Israel. If they want to make it Isreal they have the military resources to do so, but it then comes with a shiatload of people who aren't (currently) Israelis. And after all they've been through, I doubt they'd want to be Israeli.

By trumpeting that it's a "Jewish State", they've essentially enshrined identity politics into their concept of nationhood, and relegated non-Jewish Israelis into a second-class citizenship. Dhimmitude, if you will.

Basing your national identity on who your grandparents were sucks balls. And both sides there do it. I doubt that any of the Jewish settlers in the West Bank are clamoring for Palestinian citizenship anytime soon.
 
2011-05-25 08:06:19 PM

jedihirsch: First wiki is not a source.


Ok (snip)
According to Alexander Scholch, the population of Palestine in 1850 had about 350,000 inhabitants, 30% of whom lived in 13 towns; roughly 85% were Muslims, 11% were Christians and 4% Jews
The Demographic Development of Palestine, 1850-1882
by A Schölch

the population of Palestine in the early 19th century was 350,000, in 1860 it was 411,000 and in 1900 about 600,000 of which 94% were Arabs. In 1914 Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews.[215] McCarthy estimates the non-Jewish population of Palestine at 452,789 in 1882, 737,389 in 1914, 725,507 in 1922, 880,746 in 1931 and 1,339,763 in 1946.
The Population of Palestine: Population History and Statistics of the Late Ottoman Period and the Mandate


Now thats dealt with.

jedihirsch: And the problem with using pre 1917 records are the ottomans consider it with lebanon as part of Syria.


mcCarthy dealt with that.


Now, are you even going to begin to justify your wild claim? Present some citations like you are asking for?

jedihirsch: if my adviser ever saw one of his undergrads use wiki as a source it would be an automatic F


Looks like your unsourced claim is not correct. What grade would that get you?
 
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