FARK.com: (6233826) Abbas may ask UN to recognize Palestine. Mamma mia, here we go again

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		Abbas may ask UN to recognize Palestine. Mamma mia, here we go again (msnbc.msn.com)		180
		More: Interesting, Palestine, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Ramallah, Peace process in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Likud, Jewish settlements, Palestinian, Prime Minister of Israel

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RowdyRough		2011-05-25 03:09:58 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: First they have to recognize Israel!

But what good is recognizing a country when you yourself are not recognized as a country? And it's not like anyone is going to take their word on "Hey you'll recognize us and then we'll recognize Israel".

What do you say we buy a sharpie, some name tags and invite everyone to a party? There will be punch and pie.

Just to attempt to dispel this myth... (new window)

"Hamas accepts the existence of the state of Israel but will not officially recognise it until the establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, according to the group's leader in Damascus, Khaled Meshaal.

In comments made to Reuters, Mr Meshaal softened his anti-Israel rhetoric, suggesting that Hamas does not seek the destruction of Israel as written in the group's charter. He said that Israel is a "reality" and "there will remain a state called Israel, this is a matter of fact"."

3 years ago people...

DarnoKonrad		2011-05-25 03:11:02 PM

EsteeFlwrPot: If hamas decides to violate Israel's border do you really think the international community will come down hard on them, as opposed to Israel violating their border?

Just insert 'Mexican drug gangs' and 'United States' to understand why dropping white phosphorus on Mexico City might be frowned upon.

Thorndyke Barnhard		2011-05-25 03:14:02 PM

HotWingConspiracy: They first have to make peace with a government that publicly states they aren't interested in peace.

When Israelis stop electing racist militants things will get better.

Well, to be fair, most of the Israelis DIDN'T actually elect the right-wing Likud assbags, Likud just somehow managed to coalition themselves into leadership.

HotWingConspiracy		2011-05-25 03:15:11 PM

clambam: HotWingConspiracy: They first have to make peace with a government that publicly states they aren't interested in peace.

When Israelis stop electing racist militants things will get better.

Funny, I was going to say when Palestinians stop electing murderous, anti-semitic thugs things will get better.

They'd likely both benefit from the practice of not voting in the worst possible people to broker peace.

For the UN to recognize a Palestinian state with 1967 borders is to state that all bets are off. If all bets are off, if all previous negotiation is null and void, the Israelis have nothing to lose by annexing all of the West Bank and Gaza and forcing the Palestinians over the borders into Jordan and Egypt.

They'd actually have a whole lot to lose in such an event.

Casus belli for the Arabs? Sure, but the unilateral establishment of a hostile state next door and the imposition of indefensible borders is kind of a casus belli too.

This statement seems to legitimize Hamas.

EsteeFlwrPot		2011-05-25 03:19:15 PM

jakomo002: EsteeFlwrPot: I see your point, but then again who is to say that their occupation ends there?

Because if Israeli soldiers are on Palestinian soil in that case, then it's an invasion of sovereign territory by Israel. Sure, they could do it (see Lebanon 2006), but if Palestine is actually sovereign and self-ruling, they'll be able to have things that they don't have in Gaza right now.

Like news agencies and reporters and live feeds and cameras reporting everything they see as the IDF rolls in.

No more denying reporters access to the area while the IDF goes door-to-door, the world would be there to directly witness these things.

So, yeah, they could do it, but it would make Israel a pariah nation overnight.

I understand, but my point is what if it's the other way around? In other words, I don't believe the international community would be as hard on the Palestinians violation as they would be on Israel. I also think hamas would try to argue their way into making Israel give up more land or instigate more altercations that would lead to confrontations and possible war. I really don't trust hamas and I don't think they have the desire to actually stop the fighting. Nothing they have done has proven otherwise. I'm sure the civilians desperately want to live in peace but I really don't trust hamas at all.

Headso		2011-05-25 03:19:36 PM

EsteeFlwrPot: Headso: EsteeFlwrPot: Just because the international community says occupation ends at the 67 lines doesn't mean they think it does.

The good part about having boundaries that everyone recognizes though is that if someone violates them there is no dispute that they were violated.

But will anyone do anything about it is the question? If hamas decides to violate Israel's border do you really think the international community will come down hard on them, as opposed to Israel violating their border?

Why does the international community need to come down on them if they violate Israeli borders, Israel has the ability to defend their borders and project power. It seems right now the vague-ness of the whole situation is worse for the "citizenry" of both "nations".

jakomo002		2011-05-25 03:19:37 PM

The Arab Spring is only going to hasten all this along. Israel is going to have to play ball because their neighbours are becoming actual democracies.

Egypt is opening the Rafah border PERMANENTLY on Saturday. so in 3 days the Siege of Gaza (since 2007) will be effectively ended, which violates a treaty signed by Egypt (under Mubarak), Israel, the US, and the EU.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/egypt-to-permanently-open-rafah-c r ossing-with-gaza-on-saturday-1.364038

Alien Robot		2011-05-25 03:21:19 PM

Seth'n'Spectrum: UN membership and statehood in general are two separate things, although for most practical purposes they are the same because almost every state is a UN member.

Taiwan, Kosovo, Northern Cyprus, and the Vatican are the four main independent states who are not members of the UN.

Alien Robot		2011-05-25 03:27:04 PM

Edsel: The level of violence employed by Hamas has gone down drastically in the last couple of years

Isn't that due to the wall more than anything else? In areas where there is no wall they keep trying.

jakomo002		2011-05-25 03:27:16 PM

EsteeFlwrPot: . I also think hamas would try to argue their way into making Israel give up more land or instigate more altercations that would lead to confrontations and possible war. I really don't trust hamas and I don't think they have the desire to actually stop the fighting. Nothing they have done has proven otherwise. I'm sure the civilians desperately want to live in peace but I really don't trust hamas at all.

Put it this way, Hamas is mostly a REACTIONARY party. Their whole basic platform is "FARK THE JEWS" and "GO PALESTINE", in that order. A lot of which has to do with the fact that they have been under occupation for 2 entire generations. Anyone under 45 in Gaza has ALWAYS lived under Israeli occupation.

Once that is gone, then Hamas needs a new platform. There;s no way in hell they'd win anything if they kept to their current policies, because they'd have WON, and not by violence. They'd have a state.

And if they decide to launch a rocket into Israel at that time, Israel could say to the UN, "We're under attack and we're retaliating" and it would be 100% legal and nobody could say anything about it, and Hamas would know it. They would get completely flattened and they would have nobody to turn to, least of all the international community, who would be VERY harsh with them (because they'd have egg on their face).

All because of clearly delineated international BORDERS, which is the singlemost important first step that's been utterly impossible to do for decades.

I mean, not to mention the clear benefit to Israel of not having to pay for the Occupation, which I imagine is pretty expensive. The Palestinians would have to rely on the rest of the world for trade, so they wouldn't be able to just be dicks all the time.

jedihirsch		2011-05-25 03:28:02 PM

SO the Palestinians want a state they rejected in 1947 then were annexed by Jordan and Egypt lost to in a war with Israel. So where is this state being made from? Make it out of Jordan and Egypt, that's who stole the Palestinians land and lost it. Remember the 1967 borders were a truce line which by UN regs have no legal binding as a border and since it was lost in a war, too bad. Besides Israel only was the aggressor to Egypt in 67 and they gave away Gaza and returned the Sinai, Jordan attacked Israel first and therefore Israel is not obligated by any international law to return what it took in a defensive war (defined as one where you were attacked first) leave the regions only mutli-ethnic, multi-religion democracy alone (that's right Israel even has an Arab who's a General, and thousands of Arabs who serve as soldiers and officers, even in elite units and fighter jets and there's an Arab on their supreme court).
Link (new window)
Link (new window)
Link (new window)He commanded one of the most elite brigades, Givati, in the IDF
Link (new window)
Link (new window)
also Major General Hussain Fares, is the commander of Israel's border police and several of their ambassadors are Arabs
Link (new window)

Besides once we're at this why doesn't the UN recognize Kurdistan, Taiwan, Chechnya, and about half a dozen African ones. Why does the world only care about the one where the jews are?

jedihirsch		2011-05-25 03:30:31 PM

RowdyRough: The Stealth Hippopotamus: First they have to recognize Israel!

But what good is recognizing a country when you yourself are not recognized as a country? And it's not like anyone is going to take their word on "Hey you'll recognize us and then we'll recognize Israel".

What do you say we buy a sharpie, some name tags and invite everyone to a party? There will be punch and pie.

Just to attempt to dispel this myth... (new window)

"Hamas accepts the existence of the state of Israel but will not officially recognise it until the establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, according to the group's leader in Damascus, Khaled Meshaal.

In comments made to Reuters, Mr Meshaal softened his anti-Israel rhetoric, suggesting that Hamas does not seek the destruction of Israel as written in the group's charter. He said that Israel is a "reality" and "there will remain a state called Israel, this is a matter of fact"."

3 years ago people...

Um Hamas renounced that at the time saying the comment was not authorized. The Hamas charter states that all that land is Palestine and no Israel can exist. Their charter also calls for Israel's annihilation. But I won't let facts get in your way

jakomo002		2011-05-25 03:31:35 PM

Alien Robot: Good link. Poor kid died in that rocket attack, and yes, it is a tragedy.

The next sentences IS the bigger problem, though, apologies to the boy's family:

Nineteen Palestinians died in the ensuing wave of Israeli air strikes and Palestinian counter-attacks.

It was the most serious violence since Israel's conflict with Hamas in Gaza in December 2008 and January 2009.

About 1,400 Palestinians, more than half of them civilians, and 13 Israelis, including 10 soldiers, were killed.

So while 1 teenage boy dying on a bus is a tragedy, the retaliations and counter-strikes are an ATROCITY.

Mrtraveler01		2011-05-25 03:32:58 PM

jakomo002: The Arab Spring is only going to hasten all this along. Israel is going to have to play ball because their neighbours are becoming actual democracies.

Egypt is opening the Rafah border PERMANENTLY on Saturday. so in 3 days the Siege of Gaza (since 2007) will be effectively ended, which violates a treaty signed by Egypt (under Mubarak), Israel, the US, and the EU.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/egypt-to-permanently-open-rafah-c r ossing-with-gaza-on-saturday-1.364038

Should've seen that coming. Although I gotta admit, this blockade was just as worthless as our embargo with Cuba. Hamas didn't decline in popularity and Israel got the blame from the economic hardship caused by the blockade, not Hamas.

/thinks Israel needs to go back to the drawing board

Alien Robot		2011-05-25 03:36:19 PM

jakomo002: So while 1 teenage boy dying on a bus is a tragedy, the retaliations and counter-strikes are an ATROCITY.

So don't shoot rockets over the border into Israeli schoolbuses.

EsteeFlwrPot		2011-05-25 03:36:19 PM

jakomo002: EsteeFlwrPot: . I also think hamas would try to argue their way into making Israel give up more land or instigate more altercations that would lead to confrontations and possible war. I really don't trust hamas and I don't think they have the desire to actually stop the fighting. Nothing they have done has proven otherwise. I'm sure the civilians desperately want to live in peace but I really don't trust hamas at all.

Put it this way, Hamas is mostly a REACTIONARY party. Their whole basic platform is "FARK THE JEWS" and "GO PALESTINE", in that order. A lot of which has to do with the fact that they have been under occupation for 2 entire generations. Anyone under 45 in Gaza has ALWAYS lived under Israeli occupation.

Once that is gone, then Hamas needs a new platform. There;s no way in hell they'd win anything if they kept to their current policies, because they'd have WON, and not by violence. They'd have a state.

And if they decide to launch a rocket into Israel at that time, Israel could say to the UN, "We're under attack and we're retaliating" and it would be 100% legal and nobody could say anything about it, and Hamas would know it. They would get completely flattened and they would have nobody to turn to, least of all the international community, who would be VERY harsh with them (because they'd have egg on their face).

All because of clearly delineated international BORDERS, which is the singlemost important first step that's been utterly impossible to do for decades.

I mean, not to mention the clear benefit to Israel of not having to pay for the Occupation, which I imagine is pretty expensive. The Palestinians would have to rely on the rest of the world for trade, so they wouldn't be able to just be dicks all the time.

I can see that.

jedihirsch: Um Hamas renounced that at the time saying the comment was not authorized. The Hamas charter states that all that land is Palestine and no Israel can exist. Their charter also calls for Israel's annihilation. But I won't let facts get in your way

This was my earlier point. They aren't going to stop at 67 borders because they think all of the land is occupied, including whatever land Israel stands on.

johnny_stingray		2011-05-25 03:38:26 PM

don't recognize them, but their fez is familiar...

jakomo002		2011-05-25 03:39:26 PM

Mrtraveler01: The good news about the border opening is there's another Gaza Flotilla on the way, so hopefully they'll either be able to get stuff through Rafah, or since the Rafah border is open already, the IDF will just kind of angrily wave them through.

The last thing Israel needs right now is to be gunning down more peace activists at sea.

organizm		2011-05-25 03:41:06 PM

jedihirsch: RowdyRough: The Stealth Hippopotamus: First they have to recognize Israel!

But what good is recognizing a country when you yourself are not recognized as a country? And it's not like anyone is going to take their word on "Hey you'll recognize us and then we'll recognize Israel".

What do you say we buy a sharpie, some name tags and invite everyone to a party? There will be punch and pie.

Just to attempt to dispel this myth... (new window)

"Hamas accepts the existence of the state of Israel but will not officially recognise it until the establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, according to the group's leader in Damascus, Khaled Meshaal.

In comments made to Reuters, Mr Meshaal softened his anti-Israel rhetoric, suggesting that Hamas does not seek the destruction of Israel as written in the group's charter. He said that Israel is a "reality" and "there will remain a state called Israel, this is a matter of fact"."

3 years ago people...

Um Hamas renounced that at the time saying the comment was not authorized. The Hamas charter states that all that land is Palestine and no Israel can exist. Their charter also calls for Israel's annihilation. But I won't let facts get in your way

Just to get what you're saying straight (not saying I'm agreeing or disagreeing with anything you said)

Israeli Argument: This land is ours, and we won't accept the creation of a Palestinian state. And yes, sometimes we have to kill your civilians to defend ourselves.

Palestinian argument: This land is ours, and we won't accept the existence of an Israeli state. And yes, sometimes we have to kill civilians to defend ourselves.

Your argument: they wont accept our state and kill our civilians! See, we're better than them!

Do i got that right?

clambam		2011-05-25 03:43:50 PM

jakomo002: The Arab Spring is only going to hasten all this along. Israel is going to have to play ball because their neighbours are becoming actual democracies.

You actually believe that? I have a hundred bucks that says in five years there will be at most a single Arab democracy in the world. Not Iraq, not Egypt, not Yemen, not Jordan, not Syria. I'll give Tunisia the benefit of the doubt, but in case you hadn't noticed, this is how "democratization" works in the Muslim world:

1. A reformist government gives the people the vote.
2. In the very next election, the people vote to strip themselves of voting rights and establish a Muslim theocracy.
3. The military squelches the results; or, a theocracy is established.

Egypt has a military government now. It will still have one in five years. Secular civilian dictatorship, religious dictatorship, military dictatorship--them's your choices, as illustrated in Algeria, Lebanon, Iran and Gaza.

PartTimeBuddha		2011-05-25 03:44:35 PM

Is Israel a viable state?

I don't think that's as facetious a question as it sounds. I noted some comments in a previous thread where the idea of Israel going back to the '67 borders wasn't possible because it would leave Isreal excessively vulnerable to attack.

I can see the point, there. But that then makes me wonder whether there should be a state there at all.

jedihirsch		2011-05-25 03:44:44 PM

welcome to what "Israeli Oppression" in Gaza looks like
Link
Link
Link
Link
Link
Link

farm1.static.flickr.com

The city of Gaza

and here's more
electronicintifada.net

Some occupation huh. It seems when they're not starting wars by attacking Israeli civilians which leads to Israeli invasions, they seem to be living quite well

organizm		2011-05-25 03:47:22 PM

jedihirsch: SO the Palestinians want a state they rejected in 1947 then were annexed by Jordan and Egypt lost to in a war with Israel. So where is this state being made from? Make it out of Jordan and Egypt, that's who stole the Palestinians land and lost it. Remember the 1967 borders were a truce line which by UN regs have no legal binding as a border and since it was lost in a war, too bad. Besides Israel only was the aggressor to Egypt in 67 and they gave away Gaza and returned the Sinai, Jordan attacked Israel first and therefore Israel is not obligated by any international law to return what it took in a defensive war (defined as one where you were attacked first) leave the regions only mutli-ethnic, multi-religion democracy alone (that's right Israel even has an Arab who's a General, and thousands of Arabs who serve as soldiers and officers, even in elite units and fighter jets and there's an Arab on their supreme court).
Link (new window)
Link (new window)
Link (new window)He commanded one of the most elite brigades, Givati, in the IDF
Link (new window)
Link (new window)
also Major General Hussain Fares, is the commander of Israel's border police and several of their ambassadors are Arabs
Link (new window)

Besides once we're at this why doesn't the UN recognize Kurdistan, Taiwan, Chechnya, and about half a dozen African ones. Why does the world only care about the one where the jews are?

Can anyone cite a source to back up this claim in bold?

I was under the impression that the building of settlements in Gaza and the West Bank was a violation of international law.

LasersHurt		2011-05-25 03:47:29 PM

Lulz, are you Tats' little brother? "Here are nice looking pictures from Palestine, so nothing bad is happening at all."

RanDomino		2011-05-25 03:48:22 PM

EsteeFlwrPot
Do you really think Hamas would listen to that? Really?

I don't understand why I have to keep posting this.

upload.wikimedia.org

jakomo002		2011-05-25 03:48:46 PM

Alien Robot; So don't shoot rockets over the border into Israeli schoolbuses.

So then don't brutally occupy, humiliate and subjugate an entire population for decades, with no end in sight, and expect them to HAPPY about it.

I mean, honestly, wtf do you expect them to send into Israel? Teddy bears with little notes saying "Thx for the Occupation! XOXO!"

If you keep your foot on someone's throat for long enough, they're going to start squirming, and maybe even bite your foot.

Headso		2011-05-25 03:49:34 PM

jedihirsch: Some occupation huh. It seems when they're not starting wars by attacking Israeli civilians which leads to Israeli invasions, they seem to be living quite well

concentration camp band pictures in 3...2....1....

It's funny when someone new to the site has this "original thought" but if you've been here awhile you've seen the "original thought" responded to 58 different times in 50 threads with the same "original response".

jakomo002		2011-05-25 03:53:39 PM

jedihirsch: Well I'm totally convinced, based on those random pictures you dug up from the internet!

I don't see any rubble, any kids not smiling, and everyone looks happy!

Say, what international news agency are those from? You know, pictures from actual accredited reporters from inside Gaza.

Oh, none you say, because Israel has BLOCKED any and all international reporters from entering Gaza since 2007? That seems a little strange if you claim that everything is sunshine and lollipops, but oh well.

DarnoKonrad		2011-05-25 03:54:42 PM

Alien Robot		2011-05-25 03:57:10 PM

jakomo002: So then don't brutally occupy, humiliate and subjugate an entire population for decades, with no end in sight, and expect them to HAPPY about it.

The rocket came from Gaza. Israel ended the occupation of Gaza in 2005 -- six years ago. And a full six years later they get this. Which means that if Israel returned to 1967 borders and recognized a state occupied by separatist Jordanians on the West Bank, the attacks on Israel would continue from there. And you would blame Israel for defending itself not the militants carrying out the attacks as you are doing here.

zedster		2011-05-25 03:58:36 PM

meh, let them be a nation, Israel should withdraw from everything but the Golan and Jerusalem. However, they will have to pay the price of any nation. If any nation kidnapped a US soldier from the US what do you think the reaction would be? or if a drug gang attacked the US (1916 Patton did something about this)?

If one nation attacks another or allows their nation to be used as a base for attacks it's war. Israel should play nice until the first rocket or bomb attack and then flip out like a spider monkey on crack

Ringtailed79		2011-05-25 03:59:01 PM

Man, I hated ABBA. I didn't know there were multiple shiatty bands with that name.

jakomo002		2011-05-25 04:00:05 PM

organizm: I was under the impression that the building of settlements in Gaza and the West Bank was a violation of international law.

They are. Which is why, if you listened to Netanyahu's speech, he specifically said that "We do not occupy Judea and Samaria" (Gaza and the West Bank).

Most rabid pro-Zionists will completely deny that there is any Occupation, and some that there ever was one. A current favourite is, "What are you talking, we completely pulled out of Gaza".

Which is true, but Israel still controls all borders, airspace, imports, exports, restricts any military presence (defending yourself from an IDF incursion is apparently punishable by death), and habitually targets and kills or kidnaps Palestinians, either elected politicians or "suspected" militants (sometimes for years with no documentation).

So it's still an Occupation, they just don't claim it as such, partly because legally they would be 100% responsible for Palestinians' wellbeing if they were an official Occupying Power.

colon_pow		2011-05-25 04:02:34 PM

the final solution begins...

jakomo002		2011-05-25 04:05:46 PM

Alien Robot: The rocket came from Gaza. Israel ended the occupation of Gaza in 2005 -- six years ago

Excellent, you wrote that as I was writing the above response.

Israel still controls all borders, airspace, imports, exports, restricts any military presence, and habitually targets and kills or kidnaps Palestinians, either elected politicians or "suspected" militants.

Remind me of any other "non-occupied territories" that can't actually control their borders, are surrounded by huge walls and barbed wire, and are subject to summary execution by their neighbour who is 100 times more powerful than them, militarily. And also are subject to a complete embargo on anything but what their neighbours ALLOW through the borders for them.

If that isn't an occupation, then you need to rethink what an occupation is. Because that's not a free territory, it's a prison camp.

And when other countries get together to send a few aid boats, your neighbour captures the ships and confiscates them.

Rapmaster2000		2011-05-25 04:08:09 PM

This will be Abbas's Waterloo.

Alien Robot		2011-05-25 04:08:46 PM

jakomo002: Which is true, but Israel still controls all borders, airspace, imports, exports ...

How does Israel control the Egypt/Gaza border? That border is entirely under control of the Egyptian government. Israel controls its own border. If Gaza wants imports or exports not controlled by Israel, then they should use the Egyptian border crossing to import/export goods.

Karac		2011-05-25 04:08:48 PM

Why the hell doesn't Israel give up some land to try to make peace? The shooting any Palestinian holding a rock route they've been going on for the last 40 plus years doesn't seem to be working.

And on the other side, when are Palestinians going to put down the rocks, molotov cocktails, and bomb vests? I bet if they took a page out of MLK Jr.'s playbook, they'd get a lot more international sympathy and good press. Just find the oldest, kindest, most harmless looking Palestinian man you can, have him walk to where his farm used to be before the Israelis took it, and have him do a sit in till they give it back. Dare them to break out the billy clubs and firehoses. Belt out a few bars of "We Shall Overcome" while you wait.

jakomo002		2011-05-25 04:09:43 PM

Alien Robot: And you would blame Israel for defending itself not the militants carrying out the attacks as you are doing here.

The attacks, while wrong, are an entirely logical response to 40+ years of foreign occupation. 100% predictable.

If a homemade rocket bounces off the pavement in Sderot and makes a few people gasp, and the Israeli response is to fire rockets from a helicopter into a crowded mob to get the guy they "suspect" was responsible, then yeah, I do have a pretty big problem with that.

zedster		2011-05-25 04:10:05 PM

jakomo002: Israel still controls all borders, airspace, imports, exports, restricts any military presence, and habitually targets and kills or kidnaps Palestinians, either elected politicians or "suspected" militants.

Egypt and Jordan would like a word with you, it's not Lesotho

Karac		2011-05-25 04:11:41 PM

Alien Robot: jakomo002: Which is true, but Israel still controls all borders, airspace, imports, exports ...

How does Israel control the Egypt/Gaza border? That border is entirely under control of the Egyptian government. Israel controls its own border. If Gaza wants imports or exports not controlled by Israel, then they should use the Egyptian border crossing to import/export goods.

Why bother going through Egypt? Gaza is right there on the coast, just put whatever you want on a ship and .... oh yeah.

Alien Robot		2011-05-25 04:13:32 PM

jakomo002: Alien Robot: The rocket came from Gaza. Israel ended the occupation of Gaza in 2005 -- six years ago

Excellent, you wrote that as I was writing the above response.

Israel still controls all borders, airspace, imports, exports, restricts any military presence, and habitually targets and kills or kidnaps Palestinians, either elected politicians or "suspected" militants.

Remind me of any other "non-occupied territories" that can't actually control their borders, are surrounded by huge walls and barbed wire, and are subject to summary execution by their neighbour who is 100 times more powerful than them, militarily. And also are subject to a complete embargo on anything but what their neighbours ALLOW through the borders for them.

If that isn't an occupation, then you need to rethink what an occupation is. Because that's not a free territory, it's a prison camp.

And when other countries get together to send a few aid boats, your neighbour captures the ships and confiscates them.

Are you really so stupid to not realize that Gaza has a border with Egypt? Israel has nothing to do with the Egyptian border. If BOTH neighboring contries have sealed you off, then you need some introspection as to why they might do that.

jakomo002		2011-05-25 04:14:53 PM

Alien Robot: How does Israel control the Egypt/Gaza border? That border is entirely under control of the Egyptian government. Israel controls its own border. If Gaza wants imports or exports not controlled by Israel, then they should use the Egyptian border crossing to import/export goods.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/egypt-to-permanently-open-rafah-c r ossing-with-gaza-on-saturday-1.364038

Egypt will open its only crossing with the Gaza Strip this weekend, the Cairo military government announced Wednesday, significantly easing a four-year blockade on the Hamas-ruled territory but setting up a potential conflict with Israel.

...This gives Gaza Palestinians a way to freely enter and exit their territory for the first time since 2007, when Hamas overran the territory, and Israel and Egypt closed the crossings.
...
Rafah's opening would be a violation of an agreement reached in 2005 between the United States, Israel, Egypt, and the European Union, which gives EU monitors access to the crossing. The monitors were to reassure Israel that weapons and militants wouldn't get into Gaza after its pullout from the territory in the fall of 2005.

A treaty, signed by the dictator Mubarak, to make sure the Rafah closing stays closed, in return for who knows what perks from the Americans. Probably just cash,

I'm sure you were just entirely ignorant of that, right? Brand new info?

Alien Robot		2011-05-25 04:15:49 PM

Karac: Why the hell doesn't Israel give up some land to try to make peace? The shooting any Palestinian holding a rock route they've been going on for the last 40 plus years doesn't seem to be working.

Never heard of Gaza?

And on the other side, when are Palestinians going to put down the rocks, molotov cocktails, and bomb vests? I bet if they took a page out of MLK Jr.'s playbook, they'd get a lot more international sympathy and good press. Just find the oldest, kindest, most harmless looking Palestinian man you can, have him walk to where his farm used to be before the Israelis took it, and have him do a sit in till they give it back. Dare them to break out the billy clubs and firehoses. Belt out a few bars of "We Shall Overcome" while you wait.

This.

Mrtraveler01		2011-05-25 04:17:05 PM

clambam: jakomo002: The Arab Spring is only going to hasten all this along. Israel is going to have to play ball because their neighbours are becoming actual democracies.

You actually believe that? I have a hundred bucks that says in five years there will be at most a single Arab democracy in the world. Not Iraq, not Egypt, not Yemen, not Jordan, not Syria. I'll give Tunisia the benefit of the doubt, but in case you hadn't noticed, this is how "democratization" works in the Muslim world:

1. A reformist government gives the people the vote.
2. In the very next election, the people vote to strip themselves of voting rights and establish a Muslim theocracy.
3. The military squelches the results; or, a theocracy is established.

Egypt has a military government now. It will still have one in five years. Secular civilian dictatorship, religious dictatorship, military dictatorship--them's your choices, as illustrated in Algeria, Lebanon, Iran and Gaza.

That would be true if you forget all about Turkey and it's democracy.

zedster		2011-05-25 04:19:13 PM

Mrtraveler01: That would be true if you forget all about Turkey and it's democracy.

how many military take overs have they had over the last 50 years? seriously it's taken them a long long time to get where they are and the prospect of a renewed military push is always hanging over them

jakomo002		2011-05-25 04:19:44 PM

Alien Robot: Israel has nothing to do with the Egyptian border.

Not anymore, apparently, with Mubarak out. But Egypt certainly wasn't closing the border with Gaza because of public support, because something like 85% of Egyptians supported opening it.

So they were doing it because Mubarak wanted it, because he got something in return.

Honestly, how are you unaware of this? Why was Israel so keen to keep Mubarak in power, urging the world to SUPPORT him during the recent uprisings?

jedihirsch		2011-05-25 04:21:09 PM

organizm: jedihirsch: SO the Palestinians want a state they rejected in 1947 then were annexed by Jordan and Egypt lost to in a war with Israel. So where is this state being made from? Make it out of Jordan and Egypt, that's who stole the Palestinians land and lost it. Remember the 1967 borders were a truce line which by UN regs have no legal binding as a border and since it was lost in a war, too bad. Besides Israel only was the aggressor to Egypt in 67 and they gave away Gaza and returned the Sinai, Jordan attacked Israel first and therefore Israel is not obligated by any international law to return what it took in a defensive war (defined as one where you were attacked first) leave the regions only mutli-ethnic, multi-religion democracy alone (that's right Israel even has an Arab who's a General, and thousands of Arabs who serve as soldiers and officers, even in elite units and fighter jets and there's an Arab on their supreme court).
Link (new window)
Link (new window)
Link (new window)He commanded one of the most elite brigades, Givati, in the IDF
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also Major General Hussain Fares, is the commander of Israel's border police and several of their ambassadors are Arabs
Link (new window)

Besides once we're at this why doesn't the UN recognize Kurdistan, Taiwan, Chechnya, and about half a dozen African ones. Why does the world only care about the one where the jews are?

Can anyone cite a source to back up this claim in bold?

I was under the impression that the building of settlements in Gaza and the West Bank was a violation of international law.

Read this book the Author interviewed Generals on all sides and used Israeli, Jordanian, Syrian and Egyptian sources to write it to get a well balanced account
http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/HistoryWorld/MiddleEastern/~~/dml l dz11c2EmY2k9OTc4MDE5NTE1MTc0OQ==

also look here
http://www.historycentral.com/Israel/1967SixDayWar.html

zedster		2011-05-25 04:21:26 PM

jakomo002: So they were doing it because Mubarak wanted it, because he got something in return.

like not having to worry about two armed tribes in the Sinai with Hamas/Iran support blowing up Sharm-El Shek? horrible trade

Egypt thinks they can take control of Hamas from Syria/Iran, I've got a feeling this will back fire on them

Alien Robot		2011-05-25 04:22:29 PM

jakomo002: Alien Robot: And you would blame Israel for defending itself not the militants carrying out the attacks as you are doing here.

The attacks, while wrong, are an entirely logical response to 40+ years of foreign occupation. 100% predictable.

So, even if Israels were to withdraw to the 1967 borders they would be on the receiving end of unending rocket attacks. Then why make that concession? "Land for peace" means "land for continued attacks" and that won't cut it.

If a homemade rocket bounces off the pavement in Sderot and makes a few people gasp, and the Israeli response is to fire rockets from a helicopter into a crowded mob to get the guy they "suspect" was responsible, then yeah, I do have a pretty big problem with that.

An RPG deliberately shot into a school bus and killing a teenager is a little more than "bouncing off the pavement."

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