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(MSNBC)   Abbas may ask UN to recognize Palestine. Mamma mia, here we go again   (msnbc.msn.com) divider line 180
    More: Interesting, Palestine, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Ramallah, Peace process in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Likud, Jewish settlements, Palestinian, Prime Minister of Israel  
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668 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 May 2011 at 1:39 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-05-25 10:28:40 AM
That can quite difficult. Palestine changes its shape so often it can be hard to tell what it is sometimes.
 
2011-05-25 01:11:24 PM
You got it:

www.wordtravels.com
 
2011-05-25 01:18:51 PM
First they have to recognize Israel!

But what good is recognizing a country when you yourself are not recognized as a country? And it's not like anyone is going to take their word on "Hey you'll recognize us and then we'll recognize Israel".

What do you say we buy a sharpie, some name tags and invite everyone to a party? There will be punch and pie.
 
2011-05-25 01:41:10 PM
DOA, U.S. will veto.
 
2011-05-25 01:42:55 PM
Yeah they're gonna have to play ball with Israel. Weird thing is, I'll bet they're willing, but old Benny is still all sound and fury about it because he's a goddamned douchebag.
 
2011-05-25 01:43:22 PM
I move to recognize them as giant jerkfaces, we can call their new state jerkfaceville.

/got nothin
 
2011-05-25 01:45:03 PM
If it were actually the supergroup ABBA, and they promised the UN that they would reunite for a concert, then the UN would probably say yes.
 
2011-05-25 01:50:51 PM

DarnoKonrad: DOA, U.S. will veto.


Not the Security Council, the General Assembly. The Security Council doesn't confer statehood. Recognition and a host of factors that amount to sovereignty confer statehood, and at least they can get recognition from a huge number of countries through the General Assembly.

If the U.S. votes no, good for them. When the vast majority of the world recognizes them, that just looks bad, it doesn't stop the process like in a SC vote. That's why Obama is trying to prevent the vote, instead of just saying, "so what".
 
2011-05-25 01:51:16 PM

LasersHurt: Yeah they're gonna have to play ball with Israel. Weird thing is, I'll bet they're willing, but old Benny is still all sound and fury about it because he's a goddamned douchebag.


^^^Yep^^^

It's sad that so often hardcore individual douchbaggery derails attempts to sort this shiat out.

It's like just when things are looking up, some asswipe decides to cram a stick in the spokes just so that other assholes pay attention to him. Even Hamas has internal asshole problems.

I think it's something in the water.
 
2011-05-25 01:53:05 PM

CarnySaur: If it were actually the supergroup ABBA, and they promised the UN that they would reunite for a concert, then the UN would probably say yes.



Do I have to turn in my mancard if I admit that might not be such a bad thing?
 
2011-05-25 01:54:30 PM

TheBitterest: That can quite difficult. Palestine changes its shape so often it can be hard to tell what it is sometimes.


That's why Israel was inducted into the UN with clearly defined borders...oh wait.
 
2011-05-25 01:56:29 PM

Seth'n'Spectrum: DarnoKonrad: DOA, U.S. will veto.

Not the Security Council, the General Assembly. The Security Council doesn't confer statehood. Recognition and a host of factors that amount to sovereignty confer statehood, and at least they can get recognition from a huge number of countries through the General Assembly.

If the U.S. votes no, good for them. When the vast majority of the world recognizes them, that just looks bad, it doesn't stop the process like in a SC vote. That's why Obama is trying to prevent the vote, instead of just saying, "so what".




Doesn't the security council have to approve all general assembly resolutions?
 
2011-05-25 01:56:40 PM

Bonzo_1116: It's sad that so often hardcore individual douchbaggery derails attempts to sort this shiat out.

It's like just when things are looking up, some asswipe decides to cram a stick in the spokes just so that other assholes pay attention to him. Even Hamas has internal asshole problems.

I think it's something in the water.


There was something in the air that night, the stars were bright, Fernando...
 
2011-05-25 01:58:25 PM

Bonzo_1116: LasersHurt: Yeah they're gonna have to play ball with Israel. Weird thing is, I'll bet they're willing, but old Benny is still all sound and fury about it because he's a goddamned douchebag.

^^^Yep^^^

It's sad that so often hardcore individual douchbaggery derails attempts to sort this shiat out.

It's like just when things are looking up, some asswipe decides to cram a stick in the spokes just so that other assholes pay attention to him. Even Hamas has internal asshole problems.

I think it's something in the water.


That explains why the settlement movement is full of the biggest douchebags of all. What with them having the water table under control.
 
2011-05-25 02:01:32 PM
I suppose it's a nice change from the usual chorus of "The Winner Takes It All...."
 
2011-05-25 02:01:41 PM
 
2011-05-25 02:02:48 PM

itazurakko: I suppose it's a nice change from the usual chorus of "The Winner Takes It All...."


I hear that's Israel's national anthem actually.

/Knows he's going to get into a lot of trouble saying that
 
2011-05-25 02:04:06 PM
This is Abbas' birth certificate.
 
2011-05-25 02:05:03 PM

Falcc:
I think it's something in the water.
-.-.-.-.-.-
That explains why the settlement movement is full of the biggest douchebags of all. What with them having the water table under control.


At least water rights are something worth fighting for, not weepy bullshiat about dusty rock piles where some legendary patriarch screwed his concubines four thousand years ago.
 
2011-05-25 02:09:49 PM
I'm not sure if that will work. How much money does he have to bribe UN officials and other countries? I'm assuming he's wise enough not to allow the UN anywhere remotely near his people though, for their sake.
 
2011-05-25 02:20:30 PM

randomjsa: I'm not sure if that will work. How much money does he have to bribe UN officials and other countries?


i.imgur.com

R.I.P. MONEY MONEY MONEY
 
2011-05-25 02:25:14 PM
 
2011-05-25 02:26:32 PM

TheBitterest: That can quite difficult. Palestine changes its shape so often it can be hard to tell what it is sometimes.


This. Until you get your shiat together Palestine and stop blaming everonye but your self and Hamas no one cares and you will get nothing.
 
2011-05-25 02:31:09 PM
Of course, Israel will be super cool with this. Just kidding; before Obama even gave his speech last week a member of the Lukid Party has already advocated that if Palestine tries to gain international recognition Israel should respond by annexing everything. (new window)

This is going to be fun if it ever gets to that point, which it won't.
 
2011-05-25 02:31:50 PM
They first have to make peace with a government that publicly states they aren't interested in peace.

When Israelis stop electing racist militants things will get better.
 
2011-05-25 02:35:58 PM
I wonder if this would do any good. Israel obviously doesn't care much about the UN thinks, so why would it matter if the UN recognizes Palestine.

On the surface, it seem they'd have a more clear legal case against the occupations, blockades, etc. But all the UN can do is send the proverbial strongly worded letter, which its already done a jillion times.
 
2011-05-25 02:39:07 PM
The USA could veto it, but it looks like it will have significantly more than the two-thirds support it needs to pass. INCLUDING Britain, France, Germany, etc. That's more than 2/3rds of the WORLD in support of it.

So it would be political suicide to veto it. It's not vetoing a UN slap on the wrist to Israel about settlements, this would be a veto saying, "No, Palestinians, America does not want you to have a country."

My thinking is that THIS is all Obama's plan. Once statehood is given to the Palestinians, then the ante goes way up, and Israel has to deal. Has to. Even if Netanyahu doesn't, they would be even more isolated than they are now.

So I predict it'll go through, with a lot of hemming and hawing, but it'll pass.
 
2011-05-25 02:40:52 PM
CanonicalNerd: The UN mandate would have to set borders for the State of Palestine. and they'd be along the 1967 borders of Israel, thus actually putting into law for the first time Israel's actual borders (it has no official ones).

So it would be huge.
 
2011-05-25 02:41:29 PM
Statehood would pretty much require that Hamas knock off the violence entirely, which I would count as a good thing. So there's that.
 
2011-05-25 02:42:10 PM

DarnoKonrad: Nor can the General Assembly admit new members at the UN without the approval of the Security Council. (new window)


No no, see, that's to accept a new member into the UN.

What they are trying to get isn't membership status (just yet), but official legal statements on the record from each state that they consider Palestine to be a state within the 1967 borders.

UN membership and statehood in general are two separate things, although for most practical purposes they are the same because almost every state is a UN member.
 
2011-05-25 02:45:06 PM

LasersHurt: Statehood would pretty much require that Hamas knock off the violence entirely, which I would count as a good thing. So there's that.


Do you really think Hamas would listen to that? Really?
 
2011-05-25 02:47:52 PM
Darno Konrad: Exactly what Seth said.

Probably the first thing the Palestinians would do would be to actually establish foreign embassies in other cities, which, again, would be huge first steps to any kind of international legitimacy.
 
2011-05-25 02:49:41 PM
How can they resist him?
 
2011-05-25 02:50:03 PM

EsteeFlwrPot: LasersHurt: Statehood would pretty much require that Hamas knock off the violence entirely, which I would count as a good thing. So there's that.

Do you really think Hamas would listen to that? Really?


Depends. They joined Fatah, and if they were granted statehood they might have to finally resign the whole "no Israel" thing.
 
2011-05-25 02:50:52 PM
EsteeFlwrPot: Do you really think Hamas would listen to that? Really?

Considering that HAMAS' violence is mostly in response to 40+ years of brutal military occupation, once the occupation no longer exists, most of that violence would be gone.

If most of the violence is due to resistance to the Occupation, take away the Occupation and suddenly people are saying, "Crap, I oughta get a job or something."
 
2011-05-25 02:51:33 PM

BravadoGT: You got it:


Oh that's right! You guys have a 4,000 year old book that says an invisible man in the sky promised the WHOLE of Palestine/Israel to his followers to only HIS followers.

So silly of the rest of the world to forget that!


/so tired of the extreme ends of all religions. Jewish, Muslim, and tea bagger.
 
2011-05-25 02:55:53 PM
PalestIsrael?
Israelistine?
 
2011-05-25 02:57:42 PM
Palestine has to get in line behind Taiwan, who still are not recognized by the UN. He should shoot lower, like getting the Olympics to recognize you as a country.
 
2011-05-25 02:59:36 PM

jakomo002: EsteeFlwrPot: Do you really think Hamas would listen to that? Really?

Considering that HAMAS' violence is mostly in response to 40+ years of brutal military occupation, once the occupation no longer exists, most of that violence would be gone.

If most of the violence is due to resistance to the Occupation, take away the Occupation and suddenly people are saying, "Crap, I oughta get a job or something."


I see your point, but then again who is to say that their occupation ends there? Just because the international community says occupation ends at the 67 lines doesn't mean they think it does. Sure they may say so now to placate everyone else but once Israel pulls back who is to say they wont start up with 'they're still occupying our land and now we want them to go back even farther' and then 'we want them to just not be here anymore.' Blind hatred isn't fueled by anything except for more blind hatred, especially when they're willing to throw in civilians, women and children. I think that's the point where it stops being political and starts getting crazy.
 
2011-05-25 03:00:14 PM
Lost Thought 00: Palestine has to get in line behind Taiwan, who still are not recognized by the UN. He should shoot lower, like getting the Olympics to recognize you as a country.

LOL. Or start smaller than a country. Get a street named after you and then go from there. Or Palestine Inc., and try to get listed on some little stock exchange.

Maybe a Nation of Palestine Coffee Shop?
 
2011-05-25 03:00:19 PM

HotWingConspiracy: They first have to make peace with a government that publicly states they aren't interested in peace.

When Israelis stop electing racist militants things will get better.


Funny, I was going to say when Palestinians stop electing murderous, anti-semitic thugs things will get better.

For the UN to recognize a Palestinian state with 1967 borders is to state that all bets are off. If all bets are off, if all previous negotiation is null and void, the Israelis have nothing to lose by annexing all of the West Bank and Gaza and forcing the Palestinians over the borders into Jordan and Egypt. Casus belli for the Arabs? Sure, but the unilateral establishment of a hostile state next door and the imposition of indefensible borders is kind of a casus belli too.

I'd like to think this is an unlikely turn of events, but given world-wide scorn for both the Israelis and the Palestinians, I suspect a lot of countries right now are making popcorn and eagerly awaiting the main event.
 
2011-05-25 03:00:35 PM

CanonicalNerd: On the surface, it seem they'd have a more clear legal case against the occupations, blockades, etc.


United Nations Resolution 242 (new window) from November of 1967 already lays this out--it seems Fatah, like Mr. Obama, is just trying to get back to the already agreed-upon international framework as the basis for moving forward. If Iraq can be invaded in 1991 for trying to annex Kuwait, it seems Israel could be subject to the same rules--although the USA would never permit that kind of consistency.
 
2011-05-25 03:00:53 PM

LasersHurt: EsteeFlwrPot: LasersHurt: Statehood would pretty much require that Hamas knock off the violence entirely, which I would count as a good thing. So there's that.

Do you really think Hamas would listen to that? Really?

Depends. They joined Fatah, and if they were granted statehood they might have to finally resign the whole "no Israel" thing.


The level of violence employed by Hamas has gone down drastically in the last couple of years... but many people also said that once they were elected to power in Gaza, they would tone down the rhetoric and the attacks, and they didn't.
 
2011-05-25 03:01:10 PM

EsteeFlwrPot: Just because the international community says occupation ends at the 67 lines doesn't mean they think it does.


The good part about having boundaries that everyone recognizes though is that if someone violates them there is no dispute that they were violated.
 
2011-05-25 03:01:14 PM
Can't we just give Israel Iraq and call it an even swap for the occupied territories?

We sure as hell don't want it anymore.


/Buyers remorse, it's a kick in the shins, amiright guys and gals?
 
2011-05-25 03:02:18 PM

clambam: Funny, I was going to say when Palestinians stop electing murderous, anti-semitic thugs things will get better


A good portion of Palestinians are semitic. Why are the Israeli's so anti-semitic?
 
2011-05-25 03:02:30 PM

clambam: Sure, but the unilateral establishment of a hostile state next door and the imposition of indefensible borders is kind of a casus belli too.


If Mr. Abbas is trying to get the UN to recognize the border claims of a future Palestine, then by definition it is not unilateral. Again, Israel already agreed to this in accepting Resolution 242 decades ago.
 
2011-05-25 03:03:23 PM

Edsel: LasersHurt: EsteeFlwrPot: LasersHurt: Statehood would pretty much require that Hamas knock off the violence entirely, which I would count as a good thing. So there's that.

Do you really think Hamas would listen to that? Really?

Depends. They joined Fatah, and if they were granted statehood they might have to finally resign the whole "no Israel" thing.

The level of violence employed by Hamas has gone down drastically in the last couple of years... but many people also said that once they were elected to power in Gaza, they would tone down the rhetoric and the attacks, and they didn't.


Sure, but if it just took Gaza to chill out some, what about the entire country, and international legitimacy? It's a lot more responsibility, and a lot more on the line if they keep acting like farkwads.

I can't guarantee anything, and I don't begrudge those who take the negative path. I'm just hoping.
 
2011-05-25 03:08:28 PM

Headso: EsteeFlwrPot: Just because the international community says occupation ends at the 67 lines doesn't mean they think it does.

The good part about having boundaries that everyone recognizes though is that if someone violates them there is no dispute that they were violated.


But will anyone do anything about it is the question? If hamas decides to violate Israel's border do you really think the international community will come down hard on them, as opposed to Israel violating their border?
 
2011-05-25 03:09:14 PM
EsteeFlwrPot: I see your point, but then again who is to say that their occupation ends there?

Because if Israeli soldiers are on Palestinian soil in that case, then it's an invasion of sovereign territory by Israel. Sure, they could do it (see Lebanon 2006), but if Palestine is actually sovereign and self-ruling, they'll be able to have things that they don't have in Gaza right now.

Like news agencies and reporters and live feeds and cameras reporting everything they see as the IDF rolls in.

No more denying reporters access to the area while the IDF goes door-to-door, the world would be there to directly witness these things.

So, yeah, they could do it, but it would make Israel a pariah nation overnight.
 
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