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(Boston Herald)   In 2006 a big chunk of concrete fell from Big Dig ceiling. In 2010, a big chunk of aluminum. In 2011, a big chunk of foam. I suppose that's progress   (news.bostonherald.com ) divider line
    More: Scary, Big Dig, foam, light fixtures, chunks, ceilings, tunnels  
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6085 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 May 2011 at 7:43 PM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-05-24 07:45:04 PM  
That's what they get for going under budget on this project.
 
2011-05-24 07:46:29 PM  
That's what union "work" gets you. Big fat payoff, who cares if the work is any good since you're required to buy from us anyway?
 
2011-05-24 07:47:01 PM  
Wait until it happens when a Space Shuttle is flying through at 1000MPH, then call it no big deal
 
2011-05-24 07:48:36 PM  

skankboy: That's what they get for going under budget on this project.


Penman: That's what union "work" gets you. Big fat payoff, who cares if the work is any good since you're required to buy from us anyway?


Ya know, there once was a time when the first two posts in every Fark thread weren't obvious trolls.
 
2011-05-24 07:50:30 PM  

She comes in colors everywhere: Ya know, there once was a time when the first two posts in every Fark thread weren't obvious trolls.


Really? And would you also reminisce about the time when /b/ was cool?
 
2011-05-24 07:51:18 PM  

Penman: That's what union "work" gets you. Big fat payoff, who cares if the work is any good since you're required to buy from us anyway?


THIS^^^

Union slugs FTW
 
2011-05-24 08:04:26 PM  

She comes in colors everywhere: skankboy: That's what they get for going under budget on this project.

Penman: That's what union "work" gets you. Big fat payoff, who cares if the work is any good since you're required to buy from us anyway?

Ya know, there once was a time when the first two posts in every Fark thread weren't obvious trolls.



They were cynical but you were too cynical.

/sarcasm perhaps?
 
2011-05-24 08:04:58 PM  
The problem is awarding projects to the lowest bidder on projects where you know there's going to be a lot of work that's far from conventional. On something like the Big Dig cutting corners is a very very bad idea.
 
2011-05-24 08:06:23 PM  

Penman: That's what union "work" gets you. Big fat payoff, who cares if the work is any good since you're required to buy from us anyway? I don't understand how large scale engineering and construction projects work so I'll blame the people who have no control of how it's done


Fixed for accuracy.
 
2011-05-24 08:07:38 PM  

WhyteRaven74: The problem is awarding projects to the lowest bidder on projects where you know there's going to be a lot of work that's far from conventional. On something like the Big Dig cutting corners is a very very bad idea.


I thought they threw out the high and low bids?
 
2011-05-24 08:10:19 PM  
Hey, next time it'll be a big chunk of air, and then who's gonna complain?
 
2011-05-24 08:12:21 PM  

Rich Cream: I thought they threw out the high and low bids?


heh
 
2011-05-24 08:18:20 PM  

Rich Cream: WhyteRaven74: The problem is awarding projects to the lowest bidder on projects where you know there's going to be a lot of work that's far from conventional. On something like the Big Dig cutting corners is a very very bad idea.

I thought they threw out the high and low bids?



Even so, 25 bidding contractors just means that the 12 lowest ones cut corners in hopes of being low. Contractors are desperate for an award, and know that they can make up their costs, or at least break even, after award.
 
2011-05-24 08:18:57 PM  

WhyteRaven74: The problem is awarding projects to the lowest bidder on projects where you know there's going to be a lot of work that's far from conventional. On something like the Big Dig cutting corners is a very very bad idea.


Very much so. I don't know the details of the people doing the building for the Big Dig, but administrators of projects like these need to be able to include technical evaluations and references in their scoring. Unfortunately, and especially these days, the word is coming down that low cost is the only thing that matters.
 
2011-05-24 08:22:38 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Penman: That's what union "work" gets you. Big fat payoff, who cares if the work is any good since you're required to buy from us anyway? I don't understand how large scale engineering and construction projects work so I'll blame the people who have no control of how it's done

Fixed for accuracy.


LOL

deny reality much

unions suck and deliver substandard products
 
2011-05-24 08:23:45 PM  

gilgamesh23: Unfortunately, and especially these days, the word is coming down that low cost is the only thing that matters.


And keep in mind the Big Dig involved work that hadn't been done before, so quite a bit of money was spent just figuring out how to do it and making it happen. Artificially freezing soil so you can tunnel under it without it collapsing, is not something people do every day. In fact the Big Dig was only the second time it had ever been done anywhere in the world. And stuff like that isn't cheap. When you put someone's back to the wall they'll find places to cut corners and that's never a good thing.
 
2011-05-24 08:24:07 PM  
union bootlickers make me LOL
 
2011-05-24 08:24:35 PM  
what, no op-ed blaming obama?
 
2011-05-24 08:24:40 PM  

stirfrybry: unions suck and deliver substandard products


When you're cutting corners on engineering, it doesn't matter who is doing the building.
 
2011-05-24 08:27:32 PM  

BigNumber12: they can make up their costs, or at least break even, after award.


Yep.
 
2011-05-24 08:37:18 PM  

Rich Cream: BigNumber12: they can make up their costs, or at least break even, after award.

Yep.



We hate losing work to those guys. Everyone knows who they are, and yet even sophisticated Owners (in addition to the usual unsophisticated ones) are falling for the temptation to award to them these days. They award to a 0% fee contractor, and then are just *shocked* when they're bombarded with Change Order Requests.
 
2011-05-24 08:57:19 PM  

rebelyell2006: Really? And would you also reminisce about the time when /b/ was cool?


Before it existed?
 
2011-05-24 08:58:07 PM  

WhyteRaven74: And keep in mind the Big Dig involved work that hadn't been done before, so quite a bit of money was spent just figuring out how to do it and making it happen. Artificially freezing soil so you can tunnel under it without it collapsing, is not something people do every day. In fact the Big Dig was only the second time it had ever been done anywhere in the world. And stuff like that isn't cheap. When you put someone's back to the wall they'll find places to cut corners and that's never a good thing.


Definitely. Cutting corners almost always costs more in the long run. We need to be aware of how much money our government is spending, but we also, as a society, need to understand that a lot of the common-good things government does are expensive. That's what the government is there for. All this pressure to cut costs is going to hurt us down the road when the needed infrastructure maintenance and building goes undone.
 
2011-05-24 08:59:16 PM  

SwiftFox: Wait until it happens when a Space Shuttle is flying through at 1000MPH, then call it no big deal


Worse yet: What if it were going 18x the speed of light?
 
2011-05-24 09:01:10 PM  
"(State Transportation Secretary Jeffrey Mullan) was notified of this incident by pager the day of the incident," MassDOT spokesman Adam Hurtubise said

images.wikia.com
Technology is cyclical.
 
2011-05-24 09:01:44 PM  

WhyteRaven74: stirfrybry: unions suck and deliver substandard products

When you're cutting corners on engineering, it doesn't matter who is doing the building.


If this article is correct, it sounds like engineering wasn't the problem. More like poor project management, poor labor and materials, cost overruns, fraud.

Link
 
2011-05-24 09:11:11 PM  

WhyteRaven74: stirfrybry: unions suck and deliver substandard products

When you're cutting corners on engineering, it doesn't matter who is doing the building.


This.
 
2011-05-24 09:11:50 PM  
WhyteRaven74

"And stuff like that isn't cheap. When you put someone's back to the wall they'll find places to cut corners and that's never a good thing."

No one in MA should be the slightest bit surprised that they paid top dollar and got crap. Money got pissed by the ton. Every hack in the state got into the act. I knew several people that were involved in the project and they were pretty vocal about the incompetence of the people planning it.
 
2011-05-24 09:12:07 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Hey, next time it'll be a big chunk of air, and then who's gonna complain?


The last time I dropped a big chunk of air, quite a few people were angered.
 
2011-05-24 09:16:14 PM  

stirfrybry: WhyteRaven74: Penman: That's what union "work" gets you. Big fat payoff, who cares if the work is any good since you're required to buy from us anyway? I don't understand how large scale engineering and construction projects work so I'll blame the people who have no control of how it's done

Fixed for accuracy.

LOL

deny reality much

unions suck and deliver substandard products


so did your mother, apparently.
 
2011-05-24 09:17:31 PM  

Sudlow: WhyteRaven74

"And stuff like that isn't cheap. When you put someone's back to the wall they'll find places to cut corners and that's never a good thing."

No one in MA should be the slightest bit surprised that they paid top dollar and got crap. Money got pissed by the ton. Every hack in the state got into the act. I knew several people that were involved in the project and they were pretty vocal about the incompetence of the people planning it.


I don't think many people are.

Frankly I'm surprised the damn tunnel hasn't collapsed completely yet.
 
2011-05-24 09:18:50 PM  

Clete Orris: Gyrfalcon: Hey, next time it'll be a big chunk of air, and then who's gonna complain?

The last time I dropped a big chunk of air, quite a few people were angered.


That ain't air, that's a mix of methane and ass.
 
2011-05-24 09:26:07 PM  

gilgamesh23: WhyteRaven74: The problem is awarding projects to the lowest bidder on projects where you know there's going to be a lot of work that's far from conventional. On something like the Big Dig cutting corners is a very very bad idea.

Very much so. I don't know the details of the people doing the building for the Big Dig, but administrators of projects like these need to be able to include technical evaluations and references in their scoring. Unfortunately, and especially these days, the word is coming down that low cost is the only thing that matters.


Don't forget that the company that wins the project still subcontracts to the firms that bid lower and lost
 
2011-05-24 09:29:22 PM  

stirfrybry: unions suck and deliver substandard products


bullshiat.

union workers will take their sweet time and go over budget doing it by the book, if they don't do what they are supposed to do they CAN be fired, they typically cannot be fired for being behind schedule. It's private contractors and management who have something to gain by doing the work quickly and shoddily
 
2011-05-24 09:32:42 PM  
gilgamesh23: ll this pressure to cut costs is going to hurt us down the road when the needed infrastructure maintenance and building goes undone.

Also putting things off is never a good idea and always costs more. People have been talking about a tunnel between Jersey and NYC for decades, and over that time the cost keeps going up and up. And the need for it has also increased. The Big Dig was proposed quite a few years before any contracts were awarded. In that time the cost just went up. Sure a billion is a lot of money, but if you hold off, you'll be paying double that for the same thing.

Sudlow: that they paid top dollar and got crap.

Except that's the thing, they didn't pay top dollar. They gave the contract to a low bidder who then cut corners. Instead of, say, awarding the contract someone who demonstrated they were competent to handle the project and then providing whatever financing was deemed appropriate, they went for a low bidder. It's not about what the project might cost if you pick someone who put in a higher bid, it's about how much better the work will be when they aren't having to cut corners.
 
2011-05-24 09:58:34 PM  
"it would be cheaper to raise the city than to depress the Artery"
-Barney Frank

Hey they finished in 2007 and it's already falling apart. But what do you expect for $22 billion (for a 3.5 mile tunnel)?
 
2011-05-24 10:02:25 PM  
rwfan: (for a 3.5 mile tunnel)?

The Big Dig is a lot more than a 3.5 mile tunnel.
 
2011-05-24 10:04:47 PM  

Lehk: stirfrybry: unions suck and deliver substandard products

bullshiat.

union workers will take their sweet time and go over budget doing it by the book, if they don't do what they are supposed to do they CAN be fired, they typically cannot be fired for being behind schedule. It's private contractors and management who have something to gain by doing the work quickly and shoddily


the farking tunnel is falling apart, you denier
 
2011-05-24 10:21:45 PM  
stirfrybry: the farking tunnel is falling apart, you denier

Has to do with how it was built, not who built it. And how it was built falls back to how it was engineered.
 
2011-05-24 10:44:18 PM  
For a minute I thought this was about Yao Ming.
 
2011-05-24 10:56:08 PM  
judging a risk as remote enough to not care about is not the most reassuring attitude to hear from an engineer of any sort. if a risk is statistically possible, it's your farking job to ensure it is planned for and accommodated. if you practice the application of science in any way (and you know you do), then you know that every variable must be accounted if your predicted results are actually going to come out the way they are meant to. leaving some factor in where you dismiss it as not being your concern, despite that it might turn out that way, is tantamount to throwing your hands up in the air and guessing that God doesn't work that way. with an attitude like that you should resign from your farking career.
 
2011-05-25 02:10:08 AM  
I guess anybody can see why installing fireproofing inside an underwater concrete tunnel might have contributed to the tripling of the budget.
 
2011-05-25 02:32:36 AM  
At some point in the future on Engineering Disasters.
 
2011-05-25 03:36:45 AM  

stirfrybry: incompetently managed companies suck and deliver substandard products


Fixed for accuracy. And coincidentally, incompetently managed companies also don't know how to negotiate sensible wages, benefits, and work rules with a union.

Competently managed companies not only deliver quality products, but they know how to get the best deal with a union without pissing them off.
 
2011-05-25 03:38:16 AM  
torch: I guess anybody can see why installing fireproofing inside an underwater concrete tunnel might have contributed to the tripling of the budget.

Actually the fireproofing is in some senses more important because of the tunnel being underwater.
 
2011-05-25 05:22:03 AM  

torch: I guess anybody can see why installing fireproofing inside an underwater concrete tunnel might have contributed to the tripling of the budget.


It's not like cars are flammable!
 
2011-05-25 10:10:17 AM  
I can see how insulation protects concrete from heat damage, but fireproofing? Concrete just doesn't burn.
 
2011-05-25 11:24:35 AM  

Penman: That's what union "work" gets you. Big fat payoff, who cares if the work is any good since you're required to buy from us anyway?


Yeah! If it weren't for those damn unions, they could've done the same shiatty job for exactly the same amount of money, and used the money saved on labor costs to make the CEOs of the various contracting and construction companies involved even richer!

Unions aren't the problem. Shameless greed and lack of accountability are the problem.

/Penman, you are a flaming moron.
 
2011-05-25 11:30:05 AM  

torch: I can see how insulation protects concrete from heat damage, but fireproofing? Concrete just doesn't burn.


Wiring does. There's all sorts of rubber in there too. Not to mention the gasoline filled cars that drive in it. Tunnels are made from more then just concrete. Kind of like how houses are made of more then just wood.

Tunnel fires are one of the more deadly ways to get yourself killed. Really.
 
2011-05-25 12:31:13 PM  

minitrue noram: judging a risk as remote enough to not care about is not the most reassuring attitude to hear from an engineer of any sort. if a risk is statistically possible, it's your farking job to ensure it is planned for and accommodated.


You clearly have no idea how risk planning works. Just because a risk is technically possible, no matter how unlikely, doesn't mean it's required that somebody come up with a way to counter it immediately. Risk planning costs money, and if the risks are remote enough they aren't worth the cost.
 
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