Aidan: TFA was quite long, and I'm dealing with a 5 year old who needs outside, so I may have missed something but...

Here's where my confusion lies: The inmates APPEAR to be given better opportunities and chances to improve their lives than a normal non-criminal person would, outside of prison. That seems more than a little unfair to me.

I realize that the inmates were taken from closed prisons so they should have every indication of what happens if they fark up hanging over their heads, but I can think of maybe 30% of American youth (wild-ass guess) who'd consider committing a crime or two to have access to those education opportunities, the chance to get away from poisonous home environments and deadbeat towns and...

Have I completely missed the point here?

Average re-offending rate across Europe 70-75%, Denmark, Sweden and Finland 30%, Norway 20%, Bastoy (the prison in the article which is in Norway) 16%.

So like for like with the normal system in Norway 20%, this is 16%. What is not clear at all is the reason for the improvement. It could be the people moved to this prison are hand picked. If that is true, then there is no real improvement, especially when we are talking about only 120 inmates.

I would like to see the inmates randomly selected for this prison, so the effectiveness could actually be verified.

This paragraph

"On a clear, bright morning in the tranquil, coastal town of Horten, just south of Oslo, a small ferry slides punctually into harbour. I am to take a short boat ride to the sunlit, green island of Bastoy shimmering on the horizon less than two miles away. It is a curious place. There are no secluded holiday homes or elegant hotels with moorings for passing yachts. The 120 people who live there never visit the mainland, but then why would they?"

Is incorrect. The prisoners do, when they're ready, go out to the mainland to hold down jobs. Their only restriction is that they return to the island every night.

Justice is a euphemism for revenge.

However, I do believe that the criminal justice system should have as its first priority the protection of society.

Get convicted of a crime, and you should have to prove you're going to be a good boy before you're let out.

Second, the punishment should be harsh enough to put a bit of fear into the next guy thinking about committing the same crime. For some crimes, this just doesn't work - but for anything premeditated it should.

Third, and NEVER a higher priority than the previous two, reform. If you can turn a prisoner into a productive citizen, all well and good, but I'd rather warehouse someone forever than give them a free education and let them out on a hope they'll behave. I'd certainly never allow them an education that would be directly related to their criminal past (like teaching a con how to hammer copper, which is used in making fake licence plates...)

However, prison should not be torture. Prisoners should be segregated by their ability to get along - shankings, rapes, etc... the perpetrators should go straight to death row.

Prison should not be a home for the mentally ill - too often today we don't treat the mentally ill, but we're willing to throw them into prison when they commit crimes as a result of their illness.

Oh, and stop jailing people for drug possession. You want to fark yourself up, it's fine with me. Until you commit a crime as a result of your drug use, I don't care.

Aidan: Have I completely missed the point here?

No, it's the old "three hots and a cot is better than nothing" dilemma, except with bigger rewards.

Nem Wan: If their system gets better results, then what justifies doing anything different than they do?

A very different society, maybe?
"Norway is one of the wealthiest, most sparsely populated and most stable countries in the world, with a population of just five million, and a prison population fluctuating around 3,500 inmates, the lowest percentage in Europe apart from Iceland"

Would this approach work in Mexico? What percentage of our prison population is from south of the border? Does Norway have much problem with gangs?

One size does not necessarily fit all.

Gunther: Mind if I ask why?

What kind of deterrent is going to prison when you know you'll be living the good life?

Best. Prison. Ever.

/I hear the inmates there get to sunbathe and surf!

I've always laughed at the contradiction of the "Department of Corrections".

The point of jail is to reform people so that they can become productive members of society. But if you're going to take someone throw them into a cell the size of a regular home bathroom, treat them worse than how most people treat their dogs, then don't be surprised that when their time is up they aren't reformed.

We as a society might as well be on some Judge Dredd shiat and just kill people the moment they commit their crimes, saves us time and money.

These guys would argue the point, given the "services" provided before their mission. Well, except for Maggot.

ThisNameSux: What kind of deterrent is going to prison when you know you'll be living the good life?

Especially if they're doing this for murderers. So then a criminal has no motivation to stop once they've stolen something, they can murder someone in the process and go to resort prison.

Mexico had an agreement with the US to extradite criminals, unless the criminal could receive the death penalty. So if you just robbed a bank, make sure before you flee to Mexico you kill the bank guard and a few customers.

Link (new window)

has anyone here actually been in jail? anyone?

What white collar criminals deserve.




/Oh, what I wouldn't give to be spat at in the face.

Seems the difference is they learn a trade and live in a stable, wealthy country that doesn't ostracize their former inmates.

Hmmm, let me see why this would never work here.

Oh yeah, once in prison, when you're out you're a pariah, you will rarely get hired for gainful work, and are many times are stuck in the cycle.

Aidan: TFA was quite long, and I'm dealing with a 5 year old who needs outside, so I may have missed something but...

Here's where my confusion lies: The inmates APPEAR to be given better opportunities and chances to improve their lives than a normal non-criminal person would, outside of prison. That seems more than a little unfair to me.

I realize that the inmates were taken from closed prisons so they should have every indication of what happens if they fark up hanging over their heads, but I can think of maybe 30% of American youth (wild-ass guess) who'd consider committing a crime or two to have access to those education opportunities, the chance to get away from poisonous home environments and deadbeat towns and...

Have I completely missed the point here?

I think the crucial difference is that education is easier to access in Norway in the first place.

So that's where Kevin Costner ended up.

odinsposse: TFA points out that this is actually a nation wide phenomenon in Norway. They have an overall recidivism rate of 20% compared to the 75-80% of the rest of Norway. This prison is just an unusual example of Norway's rehabilitation mindset.

Exactly - it's an unusual example. Even in Norway, the vast majority of the prison system focuses on rehabilitation in a more traditional environment. If this particular prison is an extreme case, it's unfair to draw the simplistic conclusion (as some people will) that "resort" prisons are the answer.

ThisNameSux: Gunther: Mind if I ask why?

What kind of deterrent is going to prison when you know you'll be living the good life?

The low recidivism rate they have seems to suggest that merely being deprived of your freedom is punishment enough.

Freakin' Bear Island!

Bear Island - Norway wiki (new window)

Perducci: odinsposse: TFA points out that this is actually a nation wide phenomenon in Norway. They have an overall recidivism rate of 20% compared to the 75-80% of the rest of Norway. This prison is just an unusual example of Norway's rehabilitation mindset.

Exactly - it's an unusual example. Even in Norway, the vast majority of the prison system focuses on rehabilitation in a more traditional environment. If this particular prison is an extreme case, it's unfair to draw the simplistic conclusion (as some people will) that "resort" prisons are the answer.

I think the actual rate of various crimes also has an impact on it. In other words how unusual are the various crimes to that society

Murder Rate per 100,000 people per year
United States 5.0
UK 1.28
Norway 0.6

Gunther: ThisNameSux: Gunther: Mind if I ask why?

What kind of deterrent is going to prison when you know you'll be living the good life?

The low recidivism rate they have seems to suggest that merely being deprived of your freedom is punishment enough.

Which is funny, because clearly the fear of going to a harsh PMITA prison has completely eliminated crime in this country.

Here's a Speigel article about this same prison a couple months ago: Link (new window)

It's an interesting theory, to say the least.

Gunther: The low recidivism rate they have seems to suggest that merely being deprived of your freedom is punishment enough.

Well if it works in a small European country, it will surely work here. Keep being so naive though, it's kind of cute.

ThisNameSux: Well that's just stupid. On the bright side, if I ever become homeless, I'm only a murder away from living a much better life.

This.

Why bother to try and stay in society when the better alternative is just a quick crime spree away? The only people that I could see not going back are those who couldn't handle prison and the thought of getting shanked.

Harmania: Which is funny, because clearly the fear of going to a harsh PMITA prison has completely eliminated crime in this country.

It's more than that, though. It's not just about going to harsh prison. It's about the family members left behind watching the killer go to a harsh prison as well. If one of my family was gunned down and the killer was put into a posh "prison" on my dime, I'd be damned tempted to extract vigilante justice, and I'm sure quite a few others would think the same way as well.

I believe that the prison system does need to balance punishment and rehabilitation. And the younger you are, and the less violent your crimes were, the greater the rehabilitation aspect should be.

That said, if someone murdered a family member of mine and I found out they were going to this kind of place, I would kill the farker myself.

/And enjoy some sauna time.

ThisNameSux: Gunther: The low recidivism rate they have seems to suggest that merely being deprived of your freedom is punishment enough.

Well if it works in a small European country, it will surely work here. Keep being so naive though, it's kind of cute.

The resort part wouldn't, but what is the return offender rate of ex-prisoners that were rehabilitated and found good work after release?

We could treat ex-cons with a bit more respect, they have "served their time", remember? You create a self-fulfilling prophecy when you make it hard or impossible to provide their basic needs when you turn them into permanent social outcasts.

You know what else used to be a prison island?

/no, the other one.
//no, not that one either.
///oh, forget it.

GBB: You know what else used to be a prison island?

/no, the other one.
//no, not that one either.
///oh, forget it.

North America was used by France and Britain to name two as a penal colony. People making jokes about Australia always seem to forget that.

Yeah, lots of places around the world were at some time someones penal colony.

ThisNameSux: Gunther: The low recidivism rate they have seems to suggest that merely being deprived of your freedom is punishment enough.

Well if it works in a small European country, it will surely work here. Keep being so naive though, it's kind of cute.

I don't see it as an all or nothing situation. TFA clearly shows they are onto something. Why can't we try it on an experimental basis and work out when it's a better fit than traditional PMITA prison and adjust our system accordingly?

Skail: Damn. That's interesting. I wonder if it would ever work in the States, though of course, we'd never get the opportunity to try it, anyway, because of political dipshiattery.

No, it would never happen because...
Both society and the individual simply have to put aside their desire for revenge

Revenge is what we thrive on in this country

altinos: Harmania: Which is funny, because clearly the fear of going to a harsh PMITA prison has completely eliminated crime in this country.

It's more than that, though. It's not just about going to harsh prison. It's about the family members left behind watching the killer go to a harsh prison as well. If one of my family was gunned down and the killer was put into a posh "prison" on my dime, I'd be damned tempted to extract vigilante justice, and I'm sure quite a few others would think the same way as well.

Then you would need to grow the fark up, ITG.

If you knew that sending someone to a prison like this made it less likely that they'd ever hurt another human being (instead of more likely, as is common in violent prisons), and you still resisted it because of your grief, I wouldn't have any sympathy for you.

No matter how much a person is punished, the crime is never undone. It's naive to think otherwise. They are starting from the question, "what kind of prison system makes more crimes less likely?"

ThisNameSux: Gunther: The low recidivism rate they have seems to suggest that merely being deprived of your freedom is punishment enough.

Well if it works in a small European country, it will surely work here. Keep being so naive though, it's kind of cute.

Yeah, basing my views on what's been shown to work rather than what satisfies your need for revenge is naive. Clearly if we just buttrape our prisoners more, that will solve everything.

themasterdebater: Why bother to try and stay in society when the better alternative is just a quick crime spree away? The only people that I could see not going back are those who couldn't handle prison and the thought of getting shanked.

If that were true, Norway's recidivism rate wouldn't be so low.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to believe that teaching prisoners how to act like civilized human beings is a more successful approach than putting them in an environment where they're likely to be beaten/raped/victimised if they don't do the same to others first.

I don't usually comment on links here (in fact this is my Weeners in years), but this one strikes several cords with me so I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

I'd like to start out by saying I do work in the field of law enforcement (not a cop but I work closely with them) and I have quite a few friends that are police officers. I can see the need for people that commit certain crimes to spend a significant period of time in prison. Breaking the law should be punished, or else the law has no meaning.

On the flip side I am one of the few of my neighbors/childhood friends that did not spend time in prison/juvie at one point or another. Due to the fact I was close with quite a few people that were in trouble with the law I could see first hand the cycle that happened when they got out.

Step 1. Get released
Step 2. Can't get a decent job due to record and lack of skills
Step 3. Can't get the skills needed to get a job due to lack of funds.
Step 4. Resort to crime again as it is the only way they know to make money.

Many of the repeat offenders in the criminal justice system got into crime at a young age and never got the chance to learn to function in society. Our system does nothing to fix this. While some criminals don't deserve a second chance due to the nature of their crimes, I believe the vast majority could function in society if given the opportunity.

Now I'm not saying to go full out resort like the place in TFA, but I think teaching inmates skills they can use in real life would be a great start to fixing our severely broken system. If we can show them that they aren't outcasts and the opportunity exists for them to reform I believe most would jump at that chance. Hell, it can't work worse than the system we have in place now. The results of the systems in place in Norway and other similar nations speak for themselves.

/Sorry if I rambled, I hope the core of my points got across

Aidan: TFA was quite long, and I'm dealing with a 5 year old who needs outside, so I may have missed something but...

Here's where my confusion lies: The inmates APPEAR to be given better opportunities and chances to improve their lives than a normal non-criminal american person would, outside of prison. That seems more than a little unfair to me.

I realize that the inmates were taken from closed prisons so they should have every indication of what happens if they fark up hanging over their heads, but I can think of maybe 30% of American youth (wild-ass guess) who'd consider committing a crime or two to have access to those education opportunities, the chance to get away from poisonous home environments and deadbeat towns and...

Have I completely missed the point here?

Yes, yes you have. This is about Norway, not the USA.
Norway is unlike the USA, anyone can get the education they want.
Also, not a whole lot of deadbeat towns.

themasterdebater: ThisNameSux: Well that's just stupid. On the bright side, if I ever become homeless, I'm only a murder away from living a much better life.

This.

Why bother to try and stay in society when the better alternative is just a quick crime spree away? The only people that I could see not going back are those who couldn't handle prison and the thought of getting shanked.

Norway is pretty nice place to live. You don't have the widespread squalor that America or Britain does. It has some, but no where near the same amount of abject poverty.

In other words, they have a different society than ours, and place higher values on different things than we do.

8ace: I'm wondering if a change in penal ideas shouldn't be at least attempted.

change can be made without hot tubs and tanning beds.

Gunther: ThisNameSux: Gunther: The low recidivism rate they have seems to suggest that merely being deprived of your freedom is punishment enough.

Well if it works in a small European country, it will surely work here. Keep being so naive though, it's kind of cute.

Yeah, basing my views on what's been shown to work rather than what satisfies your need for revenge is naive. Clearly if we just buttrape our prisoners more, that will solve everything.

themasterdebater: Why bother to try and stay in society when the better alternative is just a quick crime spree away? The only people that I could see not going back are those who couldn't handle prison and the thought of getting shanked.

If that were true, Norway's recidivism rate wouldn't be so low.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to believe that teaching prisoners how to act like civilized human beings is a more successful approach than putting them in an environment where they're likely to be beaten/raped/victimised if they don't do the same to others first.

You're missing TNS's point. I'll bet he's only about three moves away from citing "studies" that show that racial heterogeneity is bad, and that excess melanin makes you commit violent crimes.

bogey: ThisNameSux: Gunther: The low recidivism rate they have seems to suggest that merely being deprived of your freedom is punishment enough.

Well if it works in a small European country, it will surely work here. Keep being so naive though, it's kind of cute.

I don't see it as an all or nothing situation. TFA clearly shows they are onto something. Why can't we try it on an experimental basis and work out when it's a better fit than traditional PMITA prison and adjust our system accordingly?

To be honest from what I can see, as an outsider, the main problem with the american prisons is the gangs. No matter how the system is changed, how rehabilitation is emphesised, until you can get the gangs under control, both in the streets and in the prisons, not a lot will change, no matter how much you try re-habilitation.

I could be wrong of course, all the news programs we see outside of america on your prison system could just be full of shiat (I am not dismissing that posibility at all).

So, that's the Scandinavian system. Makes me think of those prisons they showed in a couple of episodes of Star Trek: sentences of a couple of years for even serious crimes, in a place that seemed like a resort.

As opposed to the (highly defective) American System:

Jails are run on a for-profit basis by private companies on a government contract so there is every incentive to cut costs to increase profits.

Jails serve food that is the absolute worst they can get away with. Facist Joe Arpaio in Phoenix being infamous for using food that is cheaper than dog food in the process. If they act up, "Prison Loaf", a food specifically designed to be sufficiently nutritious yet highly unpalatable is served.

Sentences are long, and always becoming longer so that politicians can always talk about how they are becoming "tough on crime" (while also funneling more profits to the for-profit prisons).

The prison itself has tiny cells and the entire process is designed to be as humiliating and dehumanizing as possible.

Once out, the criminal is stigmatized as a felon for life, losing many civil rights and finding it virtually impossible to get any job above menial labor.

The public eats it up with the idea that:
1. It keeps them safe from all the bad people the Media tells them to fear by locking them away forever (or as close as they can get).
2. They think by making prison near torture that everyone will be law abiding to avoid it. The idea of people resorting to crime because of a lack of job skills or opportunities in life is not in the public mindset.
3. It fills a primal urge for justice through vengeance, by making prison a place of horrible punishment. It lets people sleep better at night to know that bad things are being done to bad people.

Perducci: Exactly - it's an unusual example. Even in Norway, the vast majority of the prison system focuses on rehabilitation in a more traditional environment. If this particular prison is an extreme case, it's unfair to draw the simplistic conclusion (as some people will) that "resort" prisons are the answer.

You missed my correction. Norway, overall, has a recidivism rate of 20%. This prison has a recidivism rate of 16%. Europe in general has a recidivism rate of 75-80%. So Norway's overall system of rehabilitation has very low recidivism rates and this prison isn't an example of unusual effect.

ThisNameSux: Well if it works in a small European country, it will surely work here. Keep being so naive though, it's kind of cute.

Yeah, we obviously don't need to try anything new because the American prison system is a huge success on every front.

Some of the lines drawn here are on the lines of. Is prison supposed to be punishment or rehabilitation?

The simple answer is both.

My bright idea. Show the inmates the contrast regularly.

1 week breaking rocks, meaningless hard work with no profit, no sense of acheivement
1 week in rehabilitation
repeat till end of sentance.

Second offence 2 weeks on rocks per week on rehabilitation, and so on.

Show them the difference, keep the difference between good productive rehabilitation and serious pounding rocks fresh in their minds.

Show them there is a productive place in society for them, one they can feel some pride in, but also show them there is punishment, and keep it fresh.

Carrot AND stick.

marsoft: penal colony

huh, huh, huh...

tototototo: So treating convicts with respect and addressing the issues that lead to the crime lowers the rate of reconviction?

I was unaware that saunas and deck chairs is the way to show respect.

marsoft: Some of the lines drawn here are on the lines of. Is prison supposed to be punishment or rehabilitation?

The simple answer is both.

My bright idea. Show the inmates the contrast regularly.

1 week breaking rocks, meaningless hard work with no profit, no sense of acheivement
1 week in rehabilitation
repeat till end of sentance.

Second offence 2 weeks on rocks per week on rehabilitation, and so on.

Show them the difference, keep the difference between good productive rehabilitation and serious pounding rocks fresh in their minds.

Show them there is a productive place in society for them, one they can feel some pride in, but also show them there is punishment, and keep it fresh.

Carrot AND stick.

I think one of the reasons the prison in TFA is successful is because the prisoners are developing good habits by getting up and going to a meaningful job every day and generally living a lifestyle very close to what society would like them to live when they get out. It can't work for a lot of the shiatheads in prison but for those it can it seems like a good idea.

But will it save people from getting anally raped ?

Harmania: Gunther: ThisNameSux: Gunther: Mind if I ask why?

What kind of deterrent is going to prison when you know you'll be living the good life?

The low recidivism rate they have seems to suggest that merely being deprived of your freedom is punishment enough.

Which is funny, because clearly the fear of going to a harsh PMITA prison has completely eliminated crime in this country.

this.

bogey: marsoft: Some of the lines drawn here are on the lines of. Is prison supposed to be punishment or rehabilitation?

The simple answer is both.

My bright idea. Show the inmates the contrast regularly.

1 week breaking rocks, meaningless hard work with no profit, no sense of acheivement
1 week in rehabilitation
repeat till end of sentance.

Second offence 2 weeks on rocks per week on rehabilitation, and so on.

Show them the difference, keep the difference between good productive rehabilitation and serious pounding rocks fresh in their minds.

Show them there is a productive place in society for them, one they can feel some pride in, but also show them there is punishment, and keep it fresh.

Carrot AND stick.

I think one of the reasons the prison in TFA is successful is because the prisoners are developing good habits by getting up and going to a meaningful job every day and generally living a lifestyle very close to what society would like them to live when they get out. It can't work for a lot of the shiatheads in prison but for those it can it seems like a good idea.

Sounds like you are agreeing with my earlier posting about the prisoners here being hand picked for the prison. Remember the avarage for Norway is 20%, 16% is an improvement on that, but with such a small sample of hand picked inmates you cannot attribute the deviation from the norm to the prison itself.

bogey: I think one of the reasons the prison in TFA is successful is because the prisoners are developing good habits by getting up and going to a meaningful job every day and generally living a lifestyle very close to what society would like them to live when they get out. It can't work for a lot of the shiatheads in prison but for those it can it seems like a good idea.

That is exactly why I said Carrot (rehabilitation, all those things you metioned), AND Stick.

Neither is useful alone.